Massive sale of apartment to speculative investors

newparty

On the news of sale of thousands of apartments owned by NAMA and banks to Canadian fund.
I just wounder how it's possible in the country with huge ongoing housing crisis to sell these apartments not to first time buyers but to speculative investors which now setting huge rents for those properties. And poor potential FTB should pay these rents instead of owing properties themselves.
Should investigation be lunched into possible corruption dealing by NAMA officials ?

barneystinson

newparty wrote: »

On the news of sale of thousands of apartments owned by NAMA and banks to Canadian fund.
I just wounder how it's possible in the country with huge ongoing housing crisis to sell these apartments not to first time buyers but to speculative investors which now setting huge rents for those properties. And poor potential FTB should pay these rents instead of owing properties themselves.
Should investigation be lunched into possible corruption dealing by NAMA officials ?

Huh?

What corruption are you concerned about?

AlekSmart

newparty wrote: »

On the news of sale of thousands of apartments owned by NAMA and banks to Canadian fund.
I just wounder how it's possible in the country with huge ongoing housing crisis to sell these apartments not to first time buyers but to speculative investors which now setting huge rents for those properties. And poor potential FTB should pay these rents instead of owing properties themselves.
Should investigation be lunched into possible corruption dealing by NAMA officials ?

It's been well covered on here....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057279643

Esssentially I believe it to be a damn good move to get more involvement from large corporate Landlords,who will operate on a proffessional basis.

The current situation which sees so much of our Private Rental sector entirely at the mercy of amateur Landlords and equally crafty tenants is a recipe for continuing trouble.

It may be far more beneficial to those "poor" FTB's to pay a reasonable rent on a long lease to a professional corporate landlord rather than be immersed totally in the ever more expensive and continuing reality of OWNING one's own residence ?

newparty

barneystinson wrote: »

Huh?

What corruption are you concerned about?

I would be concerned about NAMA officials or politicians to get bribery for facilitating such transaction for single huge company (as investment fund ) instead of advertising apartments for sale on open market or FTB specific market only.

barneystinson

newparty wrote: »

I would be concerned about NAMA officials or politicians to get bribery for facilitating such transaction for single huge company (as investment fund ) instead of advertising apartments for sale on open market or FTB specific market only.

If that's your criteria for launching investigations then the country would have to grind to a halt.

Maybe we should have a referendum every time NAMA try to do what they were set up to do?

hfallada

newparty wrote: »

I would be concerned about NAMA officials or politicians to get bribery for facilitating such transaction for single huge company (as investment fund ) instead of advertising apartments for sale on open market or FTB specific market only.

NAMA is a entity of the national treasury management agency whose main role, is the management of the national debt and pension reserve fund. They are completely separate from the Government. Everyone in the NTMA and NAMA is paid well, as they are highly educated. They are going to risk their high earning career over a ****ty brown envelope from some company. Politicians has nothing to do with NAMA or NTMA. NTMA only objective is maximise returns from NAMA and minise the burden of the national debt.

I dont know why there is a double standard with Irish people. It was seen as completely acceptable and celebrated that the Irish were going on a buying spree of Londons most high profile buildings during the boom. But a few foreign investors do the same thing in Ireland and there is outrage. We live in a globalised world. Irish people will buy assets abroad and foreigners will buy assets in Ireland. Its the world we now live in. We will just have to accept it.

Sadler32

I know somebody buying from NAMA, well trying too anyway.
So far its been dragged out for 18months. He is a cash buyer from the sale of his own house.
If it was me I would have pulled out by now. but it is somewhere he wants and they dont come up for sale much. I did ask him, if someone was trying to get him to pull out now that prices have shot up again and he is paying alot lower then the another apartment in the block just went for......

hfallada

Sadler32 wrote: »

I know somebody buying from NAMA, well trying too anyway.
So far its been dragged out for 18months. He is a cash buyer from the sale of his own house.
If it was me I would have pulled out by now. but it is somewhere he wants and they dont come up for sale much. I did ask him, if someone was trying to get him to pull out now that prices have shot up again and he is paying alot lower then the another apartment in the block just went for......

NAMA doesnt care if he is a cash buyer. They want to maximise the return for the tax payer. Its nice to see they are selling everything ASAP, as the media makes out. But instead ensuring they get as much as possible

gaius c

Any "profit" NAMA books is pretty much clawed from the pockets of ordinary Irish people (like FTB's) through the false floor they installed under the property market.

If prices drop again (which is starting to look likely), there could be trouble because this round of market manipulation has been even more blatant than Zanu FF's.

Godge

gaius c wrote: »

Any "profit" NAMA books is pretty much clawed from the pockets of ordinary Irish people (like FTB's) through the false floor they installed under the property market.

If prices drop again (which is starting to look likely), there could be trouble because this round of market manipulation has been even more blatant than Zanu FF's.

Do you mean there have been ordinary people stupid enough to buy at inflated prices this year despite all that the country has been through since 2006?

You can excuse an international investor with little knowledge of the Irish market buying into a good news story but anyone who has lived in Ireland couldn't have been stupid enough to buy over the odds this year, could they?

Sadler32

My brother bought his house 2 years ago (185k) and has been approached on 2 seperate occasions in last couple of months with offers at nearly 300k. This is in dublin.
I just sold my house at 80k loss. So yes the house prices in Dublin are inflated.

My parents just bought a house 50k over asking price. The house they were going after, but lost out in the end eventually went 70k over asking price.

I am in the unfortunate position now of having to decide whether to buy a house now or wait alittle bit...
I am lucky though that I have a good job and can get a mortgage. How every talking to 2 banks they are offering money money now then they would in the boom. My salary hasnt increased since then. So How/Why are they offering me more???

jmayo

hfallada wrote: »

NAMA is a entity of the national treasury management agency whose main role, is the management of the national debt and pension reserve fund. They are completely separate from the Government. Everyone in the NTMA and NAMA is paid well, as they are highly educated. They are going to risk their high earning career over a ****ty brown envelope from some company. Politicians has nothing to do with NAMA or NTMA. NTMA only objective is maximise returns from NAMA and minise the burden of the national debt.

Fecking hell they must be as ethical as bank managers, no wait I mean members of the clergy, no let me try again ... Gardaí ... ah feck it...

Paddy McKillen would disagree with you.

And I suppose that ex NAMA executive never bought that house that never went on the open market and probably could have fetched more?

Have you been living in Ireland over the last couple of decades ?
You do remember all those tribunals, planning allegations, political backhanders, corrupt planning officals, etc.
Yes there were lots of politicans involved but so were non politicans.
You are basically claiming NAMA is clean because it doesn't involve politicans.
I dispair.

History and life teaches most of us that no matter how much some people make it is never enough and if people think they can get away with something they will damm well do it.

How anyone can categorically state that there can be no corruption in a completly hidden process must make them one of lifes supreme optimists.

hfallada wrote: »

I dont know why there is a double standard with Irish people. It was seen as completely acceptable and celebrated that the Irish were going on a buying spree of Londons most high profile buildings during the boom. But a few foreign investors do the same thing in Ireland and there is outrage. We live in a globalised world. Irish people will buy assets abroad and foreigners will buy assets in Ireland. Its the world we now live in. We will just have to accept it.

Ehh you will find a lot of people in a lot of countries get worried when they see a big chunk of their country falling into foreign hands.

andrew

jmayo wrote: »

Fecking hell they must be as ethical as bank managers, no wait I mean members of the clergy, no let me try again ... Gardaí ... ah feck it...

Paddy McKillen would disagree with you.

And I suppose that ex NAMA executive never bought that house that never went on the open market and probably could have fetched more?

Have you been living in Ireland over the last couple of decades ?
You do remember all those tribunals, planning allegations, political backhanders, corrupt planning officals, etc.
Yes there were lots of politicans involved but so were non politicans.
You are basically claiming NAMA is clean because it doesn't involve politicans.
I dispair.

History and life teaches most of us that no matter how much some people make it is never enough and if people think they can get away with something they will damm well do it.

How anyone can categorically state that there can be no corruption in a completly hidden process must make them one of lifes supreme optimists.



Ehh you will find a lot of people in a lot of countries get worried when they see a big chunk of their country falling into foreign hands.

Surely selling the properties to foreigners with no connection to Irish people and no Irish connections, not involved in the political process here, makes corruption less likely? Wasn't all that corruption in the past due to indealing between a small number of political insiders? And a lot of people in countries get worried when 'foreign hands' get involved, but why? Isn't that a bit silly?

kupus

andrew wrote: »

Surely selling the properties to foreigners with no connection to Irish people and no Irish connections, not involved in the political process here, makes corruption less likely? Wasn't all that corruption in the past due to indealing between a small number of political insiders? And a lot of people in countries get worried when 'foreign hands' get involved, but why? Isn't that a bit silly?

Whatever the ethics about foreigners buying up the property for sale I dont like it based on the money that leaves the country because of it.
Fine you get a lump sum at the start and gov get their tax per year but then the rent goes out of the country for forever and a day.

AlekSmart

kupus wrote: »

Whatever the ethics about foreigners buying up the property for sale I dont like it based on the money that leaves the country because of it.
Fine you get a lump sum at the start and gov get their tax per year but then the rent goes out of the country for forever and a day.

Far from it.

If we look at the commercial "Landlord" mechanisms substantially used throughout Wetsern Europe,we tend to find a significant level of oversight and control by the State/Local Government.

This oversight,coupled with good busines practice tends to lead to,for example,regular maintainance and upgrading or mid life decoration,all of which tend to utilize local labour and products to facilitate them.

Currently, Irish Governments policies on Private Rented Accomodation is all about facilitating the part-time,amateur landlord,many of whom are WAAY out of their depth,as evidenced by the significant numbers of distressed BTL borrowers.

If the Irish State cannot manage to put a bit of sensible order on the market,then it's a very viable option to let the foreigners have a go....they can't make it any worse,thats for sure !!!

kupus

If an irish company bought a block of flats and done it up and fixed it properly for long term rental then they would also create those ancillary services that you mention. Because hopefully they will see the benefit of long term leasing.
Im not talking about paddy and mary who are just retired teachers and bought six houses to rent out.
Im talking about getting an Irish consortium together and do what other countries pension funds are doing and invest in these properties.
Because once that rent money is gone from the country its gone and the circulation of that money in ireland would better than circulating in canada. The more money that stays in a country the better it is.

Its like the island casinos out in , the natives were delighted they came and gave them everything they could,
THe casinos bought up all the land and that was great a few politicians made a packet.
Money was circulating, the casinos created low paying jobs and that was it. All the money made is now gone, and the money that the casino makes leaves the islands every week. and nothing circulates in the island except the tourist industry.

Its happening now where I am, and I can see the same thing happening right in front of my eyes. Im telling people they are mad to sell these properties to outside influences but something has to give,

Godge

kupus wrote: »

If an irish company bought a block of flats and done it up and fixed it properly for long term rental then they would also create those ancillary services that you mention. Because hopefully they will see the benefit of long term leasing.
Im not talking about paddy and mary who are just retired teachers and bought six houses to rent out.
Im talking about getting an Irish consortium together and do what other countries pension funds are doing and invest in these properties.
Because once that rent money is gone from the country its gone and the circulation of that money in ireland would better than circulating in canada. The more money that stays in a country the better it is.

Its like the island casinos out in , the natives were delighted they came and gave them everything they could,
THe casinos bought up all the land and that was great a few politicians made a packet.
Money was circulating, the casinos created low paying jobs and that was it. All the money made is now gone, and the money that the casino makes leaves the islands every week. and nothing circulates in the island except the tourist industry.

Its happening now where I am, and I can see the same thing happening right in front of my eyes. Im telling people they are mad to sell these properties to outside influences but something has to give,

If it is so easy, why don't you set up a fund?

Answer: It is not so easy, and Irish people tend to spread their money and invest abroad.

Farmer Pudsey

I think that a lot of people who think that these foreign company and REIT's will be the answer to Irish rental problems. I fail to see it. If anything there costs will be higher than Paddy and Mary who do a lot of the work in the houses they rent themselves.

I fail to see how these company's will reduce the cost of renting. If anything i think there costs will be much higher. At the upper end of the market where they can use price to have exclusive tenants they may provide a service. However if we look around city's at present and look at large scale rental properties (apartments in particular) we can see lots of issue that these large company's will have.

I often is there something in the Irish mentality that makes lots of them bad tenants. Bot standing up for landlords but you hear horror stories from there side as well where Tenants wreck property's. Other issue is standard of house builds in Ireland and poor governance by statutory authorities over build quality.

AlekSmart

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I think that a lot of people who think that these foreign company and REIT's will be the answer to Irish rental problems. I fail to see it. If anything their costs will be higher than Paddy and Mary who do a lot of the work in the houses they rent themselves.

I fail to see how these company's will reduce the cost of renting. If anything i think there costs will be much higher. At the upper end of the market where they can use price to have exclusive tenants they may provide a service. However if we look around city's at present and look at large scale rental properties (apartments in particular) we can see lots of issue that these large company's will have.

I often is there something in the Irish mentality that makes lots of them bad tenants. Bot standing up for landlords but you hear horror stories from there side as well where Tenants wreck property's. Other issue is standard of house builds in Ireland and poor governance by statutory authorities over build quality.

I'm not suggesting that Foreign Investors and REIT's will be THE answer to our problems,but they will be a significant PART of that answer.

Whilst you may be correct in saying that the Foreigners costs could be higher,I also believe you hit a bullseye when you talk of "Paddy & Mary doing a lot of the work themselves"

The end results of countless Paddy's & Mary's attempts to save a few bob by doin it themselves are only too visible in thousands of properties spread throughout the land.

No job was too great,not to qualify for being done by a friend/family member of the Landlord as long as it came in under budget,which was usually far too low to allow a quality job in the first place.

Those Landlords who do attempt to do stuff professionally,often find themselves the focus of a good oul slag,wherever Landlords meet to chat (boast).

No,sadly,the entire sector is so shot-to-bits by decades of quick buckery and half measures that only major remedial work will see it right.

However,the primary reason for native entreprenur'sremaining somewhat distant in this area is in termism...the large foreign groups are prepared to take a far longer-term view of profit taking,whereas,our lads tend to want a bit of an oul double-digit return tomorrow...like...;)

gaius c

Godge wrote: »

Do you mean there have been ordinary people stupid enough to buy at inflated prices this year despite all that the country has been through since 2006?

You can excuse an international investor with little knowledge of the Irish market buying into a good news story but anyone who has lived in Ireland couldn't have been stupid enough to buy over the odds this year, could they?

Don't agree. House prices have been insane for the best part of a decade and a half now with only a short interlude when nobody could afford to buy anyway.

In the original bubble, rents never went quite as insane as they have now so FTB's and renters are caught on both sides. I sympathise with ordinary folk just worried about the roof over their heads and when this bubble crashes, there's going to be a lot of rightly peeved folk.

"The state can stay insolvent longer than you can remain rational"

jmayo

andrew wrote: »

Surely selling the properties to foreigners with no connection to Irish people and no Irish connections, not involved in the political process here, makes corruption less likely? Wasn't all that corruption in the past due to indealing between a small number of political insiders? And a lot of people in countries get worried when 'foreign hands' get involved, but why? Isn't that a bit silly?

Foreigners can indulge in corruption also.
Actually some of them make the Irish look like altarboys.
Check out some of the incidents of corruption involving multinationals, investment funds, etc.
It makes what the likes of burke, flynn, haughey, etc carried out look tame and amateurish.

My big gripe is that NAMA was purposefully setup so that their operations were hidden.
And this is an organisation that is staffed by Irish people, hired ex defunct developers, hired the very people who had a hand in stoking our property bubble.
Remember it is our money that these guys are playing with.

The excuse that it all has to be secret because it is sensitive commerical information is just like saying that no one should ask what the CIA/MI5/MI6 are doing because it is for national security.
It is what they hide behind when someone starts asking tough questions.

I can see advantages in getting foreign professional landlords involved, but I can also see disadvantages.
Selling out property, especially the likes of farmland, to large foreign interests is not always good for a country.
Yes there can be short term gain, but what happens to the natives.
You are basically ceeding control to people and entities who may have no long term stake in the country and who are just interested in short term gains.

Then again a lot of our own landlords are not much to write home about either.

kupus

jmayo wrote: »

Foreigners can indulge in corruption also.
Actually some of them make the Irish look like altarboys.

Too true, one person in one country I know about was asked, not asked, TOLD to pay 100K or you wont get jack. And that was only the beginning. That was only to get in the door. After that comes inspectors and permits out the ying yang along with the odd death threat from local competitors. Now he didnt have 10 euro in his pocket and theyre asking him for 100k upfront. get ta fuc.

Now gogde, it looks very simple get teachers or civil servants that are retiring with a big lump sum get them to form a loose partnership or whatever, buy a block of apartments do it up and rent it out long term. Hopefully they would be forward thinking and do it up to a good standard.
The lump sum for the block, stays in ireland, the rent generated by the block stays in ireland, and the teachers/civil servants get their x cost per month to spend on local trade.
Everybody happy.

At times in work, somethings that look simple, really are that simple.

Why dont I do it, if i had the time and resources maybe I would. but ive enough to do with my own stuff.

robp

jmayo wrote: »

I can see advantages in getting foreign professional landlords involved, but I can also see disadvantages.
Selling out property, especially the likes of farmland, to large foreign interests is not always good for a country.
Yes there can be short term gain, but what happens to the natives.
You are basically ceeding control to people and entities who may have no long term stake in the country and who are just interested in short term gains.

Then again a lot of our own landlords are not much to write home about either.

There are pro and cons of course but its not true they are only out for short -term gains. They are very much concerned about long-term gains in their business. Its true they have no loyalty to the state but the value of their business does reflect the health of economy. So do they do have a stake in the country although not quite like a local person.

gandalf

If this is the route that things are going then there does need to be some form of rent control introduced. Leaving private investment funds to control the price setting will leave the market open to massive fluctuations especially when there is a buying stock shortage like there is now. I'd be in favour of introducing the German model where rents can only increase by a maximum of 5% every year.

hfallada

gandalf wrote: »

If this is the route that things are going then there does need to be some form of rent control introduced. Leaving private investment funds to control the price setting will leave the market open to massive fluctuations especially when there is a buying stock shortage like there is now. I'd be in favour of introducing the German model where rents can only increase by a maximum of 5% every year.

But not a single economist agrees a rent control is successful in the long term. It reduces supply and lowers the quality of rental properties. Look it up and find a country or a city that has a successful rent control in place.

Its easy to say its a success in Germany. But the German population is declining and the demand for housing will slowly decrease