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Sanitation of kids stories

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  • 14-12-2014 2:14pm
    #1
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,380 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    One thing that has really annoyed me since becoming a parent is the rewriting of stories to give a more sanitised ending.
    hooplakidz dooes a Humpty Dumpty where he gets put together again in the end.
    Oranges and Lemons is rarely if ever included with the last 2 lines of the rhyme.
    I read Jack and the Beanstalk yesterday where the giant climbed back up the beanstalk before Jack chopped it down*.

    Are kids really that delicate?
    Anyone have any other examples?

    *Oh and Jack was a thieving little s*** with no redeeming features whatsoever.


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    #2
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,492 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Most traditional stories and rhymes were not children's stories at all. If you read the origins of Sleeping Beauty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_Beauty - read Basile's narrative about half way down - it is a folk tale and was not even remotely suitable for children with elements of abandonment, rape, double crossing, infanticide etc. It has been toned down and sanitised several times already.

    So how far back do you want to go :) ? Most nursery rhymes are actually political commentaries and often have unsavoury hints if you examine them closely. In many of them the words have changed several times anyway. Children just enjoy them for their rhythm and the words do not make much impression. Just go with the older versions if you prefer, or accept the newer ones.


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    #3
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Most of our fairy tale books are very old ones from when I was small, so we get the full gore. 3 yr olds love that stuff! Digging the granny out of the wolf's stomach etc. The little mermaid original version freaks me out, but she is OK with it.

    The old noddy ones are very un-pc though. Golliwogs from the wrong part of town and the rest. Can't bring myself to read those without skipping those bits.

    It's songs too though. I have an old record of children's songs. I love them, but they are the height of un-pc now. Swinging on a star is one of them.
    http://fan.tcm.com/video/swinging-on-a-star-going-my-way


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    #4
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    Ring a Ring a Rosey is all about dying from the plague and stuffing your pockets full of posey in an attempt to keep it away. The rings are blotches on the skin which were symptoms.

    And although not big here let's not start on the May pole. :-)


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    #5
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,492 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Kaiser Damp Thumbtack wrote: »
    Ring a Ring a Rosey is all about dying from the plague and stuffing your pockets full of posey in an attempt to keep it away. The rings are blotches on the skin which were symptoms.

    And although not big here let's not start on the May pole. :-)

    Not to be argumentative, but just interested :D apparently the theory about ring a rosy only appeared in I think the 1950s or thereabouts, and do not stand up to inspection. Also there are other nationality versions which do not back up the plague idea. The whole area of folk tales and rhymes is very interesting!


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    #6
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    Interesting, never knew it was in doubt. Must start googling! :-)


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    #7
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Children love slightly dark stories. Maurice Sendak is great for that- BumbleArdy is a favourite of my kids', and Outside Over There. All of Roald Dahl too, obviously.


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    #8
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    My mother sent me a package of the redesigned Ladybird fairy tales recently for my son. While the pictures have changed, the stories are just as dark as ever!

    (Yes the giant dies, two of the three little pigs are eaten - why doesn't the third little pig put them up? why is he so happy after the brutal deaths of his brothers? :p Could grandmother REALLY emerge unscathed from the wolf's stomach?)


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    #9
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I refuse to read the new versions, kids can take the gore, sure that is half the fun. I'm working my way through the Roald Dahl collection with my 5 year old. He loves them and no nightmares yet.


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    #10
    Xdancer
    Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Xdancer


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    My mother sent me a package of the redesigned Ladybird fairy tales recently for my son. While the pictures have changed, the stories are just as dark as ever!

    (Yes the giant dies, two of the three little pigs are eaten - why doesn't the third little pig put them up? why is he so happy after the brutal deaths of his brothers? :p Could grandmother REALLY emerge unscathed from the wolf's stomach?)

    My mother sent my the same package about a year ago :) My daughter loves them too. We have to read one every night before bed. The gore doesn't seem to bother her at all.
    Although in Little Red Riding Hood, the woodcutter doesn't have to cut them out of the wolf´s stomach.


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    #11
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    Xdancer wrote: »
    My mother sent my the same package about a year ago :) My daughter loves them too. We have to read one every night before bed. The gore doesn't seem to bother her at all.
    Although in Little Red Riding Hood, the woodcutter doesn't have to cut them out of the wolf´s stomach.
    L likes shouting Fee Fi Fo Fum (he sometimes thinks is THREE FOUR FIVE because it sounds the same!) around the place, it's funny because he's so small!


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    #12
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    Some modern ones can be quite dark too. For instance, I Want My Hat Back, by John Klassen, in which a naughty bunny steals a bear's hat and suffers the consequences.

    size500_prints_JonKlassen_drama_main.jpg


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    #13
    mohawk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    My 5 year old loves any story that involves someone being eaten. He has an evil streak in him.
    We have a good few usbourne story books and the fairy tales are tamer then I remember. I must try the ladybird books. The more people/animals that get eaten the better!!


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    #14
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Let's not forget what happened to Peter Rabbit's daddy!


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    #15
    ch750536
    Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    Amazing timing! I read a lot to my kids and really appreciayed the reality of Michael Murpurgo. I decided to write my own kids book (due to be published 23rd). Anyway, I hate disney, fluff, happy endings etc so the book turned out to be a little dark. I submitted to two editors who came back with the feedback of 'too scary and needs a happy ending, parents want kids to sleep at night'.

    Amazon gave the same feedback.

    So I spent a little time looking into it and most 'fairy tales' were originally very dark and rarely had happy endings. Often they were gruesome too. Think about burning the witch (Hansel & Gretel) - I found that in the original version they watched her burn and prodded her with sticks, laughing until she moved no more. Just one example of books pre-disneyfication.

    Anyway, I decided to stick with the scary, unhappy ending.


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    #16
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,380 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    What I love about them is the political aspect and the origin story. Where Humpty gets put together again doesn't really peak the curiousity.

    Also when you have a line in a kids rhyme
    'Here comes a candle to light you to bed
    Her comes a chopper top chop off your head'
    This is the whole point of the rhyme. Otherwise it is just a nice story about bells.
    I alsways loved the gruesome when I was a kid but I think parents are way too protective now.


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    #17
    whelzer
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭whelzer


    Philip Pullman has a book of re-done Grimm tales - dark does not come close!

    My 10 and 8 year boys love them - we are talking some crazy stuff, parents cutting heads of children, a king killing his twin babies, peoples hands getting chopped off. A lot of body bits being removed!


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    #18
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    One thing that has really annoyed me since becoming a parent is the rewriting of stories to give a more sanitised ending.
    hooplakidz dooes a Humpty Dumpty where he gets put together again in the end.
    Oranges and Lemons is rarely if ever included with the last 2 lines of the rhyme.
    I read Jack and the Beanstalk yesterday where the giant climbed back up the beanstalk before Jack chopped it down*.

    Are kids really that delicate?
    Anyone have any other examples?

    *Oh and Jack was a thieving little s*** with no redeeming features whatsoever    .

    I remember some backstory about the giant being responsible for the death of Jacks Dad!
    He got what was coming to him.


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    #19
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,380 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Armelodie wrote: »
    I remember some backstory about the giant being responsible for the death of Jacks Dad!
    He got what was coming to him.

    That rings a bell actually but wasn't included in the story I read the other night.


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    #20
    Mink
    Registered Users Posts: 2,260 ✭✭✭Mink


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Also when you have a line in a kids rhyme
    'Here comes a candle to light you to bed
    Her comes a chopper top chop off your head'
    This is the whole point of the rhyme. Otherwise it is just a nice story about bells.
    I alsways loved the gruesome when I was a kid but I think parents are way too protective now.

    There's another 2 lines after that "chip chop chip chop, the last man's dead". I have a CD of nursery rhymes with this version. It's on continuous play in the car under threat of meltdown from my 2.5yr old.

    I often make the gesture of my hand cutting my head off when that part comes on... what's wrong with me?


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    #21
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AIIj0mBX1jU

    It's just not the same is it???!!! It kinda makes me cringe just a lil bit....


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    #22
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,380 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Goldilocks - Another thieving little s***. How is she the hero of that story?

    Breaking and entering, tresspass, destruction of property, theft. Not really a good example for my little lad. I'm with the bears on this one. In my version of the story she will be eaten


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    #23
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,380 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Sligo1 wrote: »
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AIIj0mBX1jU

    It's just not the same is it???!!! It kinda makes me cringe just a lil bit....

    Wow, that is awful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOpFVsiKdSI


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    #24
    tinkerbell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,423 ✭✭✭tinkerbell


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Goldilocks - Another thieving little s***. How is she the hero of that story?

    Breaking and entering, tresspass, destruction of property, theft. Not really a good example for my little lad. I'm with the bears on this one. In my version of the story she will be eaten

    ROFL :D


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    #25
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Saw a review of The Original Folk and Fairy Tales of the Brothers Grimm translated by Jack Zipes in the Guardian- apparently the current edition of Grimms Fairy Tales is the seventh and most sanitised, this is the first English translation of the first edition. I might put a copy on the Christmas list, for myself at least.


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    #26
    Mink
    Registered Users Posts: 2,260 ✭✭✭Mink


    I'd say the original versions of these fairy tales is what Game of Thrones is really based on.


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    #27
    skallywag
    Registered Users Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭skallywag


    The Pied Piper has to be one of the most horrific to be fair, I don't think I've ever seen a sanitised version of that one yet?


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    #28
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,380 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    skallywag wrote: »
    The Pied Piper has to be one of the most horrific to be fair, I don't think I've ever seen a sanitised version of that one yet?

    Oh I have. The last one I read the people revolted and fired the Mayor. Then paid the Piper to return the kids


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    #29
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Mink wrote: »
    I'd say the original versions of these fairy tales is what Game of Thrones is really based on.

    Let's not go down that rabbit hole :D


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    #30
    skallywag
    Registered Users Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭skallywag


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Oh I have. The last one I read the people revolted and fired the Mayor. Then paid the Piper to return the kids

    I've just researched it a bit and it seems that the original story may actually have a truthful historical basis to it re the children disappearing for one reason or another. Pretty dark stuff indeed ...


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    #31
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    skallywag wrote: »
    I've just researched it a bit and it seems that the original story may actually have a truthful historical basis to it re the children disappearing for one reason or another. Pretty dark stuff indeed ...

    Yea I googled it aswell!! Kinda gave me a bit of a chill tbh :(


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