Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

devnull

To be fair the Garda enforcement of traffic offences in the city centre especially is ablsolutely shockingly light handed and it really annoys me all of the time I'm there.

There is so much light touch treatment to offenders that it just breeds more and more of the kind of behaviour that cdebru outlines, since the drivers / taxis have no fear of punishment.

Many a time I see road offences, and if the Garda do anything, which often they won't, they'll normally go up to the guy and tell him "Don't do it again" or "Please move your car" or suchlike.

The same car then comes back and does the same thing the next day, or the same day in another location and te cycle repeats over and over again in the knowledge that the Garda will never actually do anything beyond telling them off.

If we had more of a zero tolerance to this kinda stuff, driver swould soon learn when they got punished and knew they couldn't get away for it, now it's a free for all, often backed up witht he excuse of Garda Discretion, which actually, is used far too much to excuse light touch policing.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

To be fair the Garda enforcement of traffic offences in the city centre especially is ablsolutely shockingly light handed and it really annoys me all of the time I'm there.

There is so much light touch treatment to offenders that it just breeds more and more of the kind of behaviour that cdebru outlines, since the drivers / taxis have no fear of punishment.

Many a time I see road offences, and if the Garda do anything, which often they won't, they'll normally go up to the guy and tell him "Don't do it again" or "Please move your car" or suchlike.

The same car then comes back and does the same thing the next day, or the same day in another location and te cycle repeats over and over again in the knowledge that the Garda will never actually do anything beyond telling them off.

If we had more of a zero tolerance to this kinda stuff, driver swould soon learn when they got punished and knew they couldn't get away for it, now it's a free for all, often backed up witht he excuse of Garda Discretion, which actually, is used far too much to excuse light touch policing.

I actually think discretion which in theory is not a terrible thing is often just an excuse not to bother doing anything, it just covers for laziness, I see that Gardai have recently started to deal with the undesirables that have been loitering and selling drugs openly in the city centre for the last few years, but it took the city centre business to hassle them before they did anything other than that they turned a blind eye to them openly dealing on the main streets of Dublin.

It doesn't annoy me to see them letting people away with a warning it is when they dont even bother to recognise the offences when they just join the queue in the bus lane, or park at the bus stop as well so they can run in the spar for a chicken roll while some poor blind guy has to be helped between the parked cars to board the bus that has now stopped out on the street. Or the Garda on the motor bike who takes off down the quays at 60 or 70 kmph in the 30 zone to set up a speed trap to catch someone doing 54 in the 50, or the garda yapping to his girlfriend on the mobile whilst driving, ( I know they can but I dont think that is what they had in mind when they exempted them) I think we need to come up with solutions that don't rely on Gardai to enforce the law because it ain't going to happen otherwise and the city is being choked to death in the meantime.

thomasj

One maybe for any Dublin bus drivers on here.

Is a driver meant to notify the depot when the bus is full?

On a 39a yesterday and it was a normal sized bus. The bus was full to the brim and skipped a lot of stops. It was a struggle trying to get off it. Not far behind it was a 39 that was used by a vt/triaxle bus and was over half empty.

The same thing happened this morning. Smaller bus used on the 39a, larger bus used on the 39! Surely given what happened yesterday the depot would have switched these buses ? A bit of common sense maybe?!

This route the 39a has to many problems on the morning. 10-15 minutes and buses not big enough leaving people behind etc. They need to fix it asap! I had a 15 minute wait and the bus is a smaller one and full but in fairness to the driver hes taking on as much as he can.

dfx-

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Hang on a sec...

The reality is DB is supposed to exist to provide a city bus service for Dublin - something it has, and continues to be, extremely poor at.

Exactly, a bus service for Dublin, not London or Gdynia or any of the plethora of alternative destinations listed on this forum. Berlin, Edinburgh, Munich, it goes on.

Unfortunately no-one is doing one for Dublin but trying to ape others. NTA being ultimate criminals in that respect.

LuckyLloyd

Am I the only one who is a regular DB user and happy with the service they provide?

thomasj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Am I the only one who is a regular DB user and happy with the service they provide?

I'm guessing you don't live on the 39/a route? ..........

MrMorooka

I've noticed that most outbound 39/a/70s now are using Tara St/Burgh Quay to get to Aston Quay now rather than the official Luas Cross City diversion via College St/Westmoreland St- it is easily 5 minutes faster, wonder why this was not chosen as the official route to begin with.

cdebru

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Am I the only one who is a regular DB user and happy with the service they provide?

Maybe you are just lucky !

LuckyLloyd

cdebru wrote: »

Maybe you are just lucky !

Maybe. Although I get as many as five individual DB journeys a day across a variety of routes (11, 47, 75, 151, 79a, buses to Tallaght) and generally find the service to be reliable. Maybe I'm not a typical customer though? I use the app and know the various route options.

One of the mornings last week I walked out to hop on the 7:20 11 at Goatstown to see a number of punters at the stop, including a couple of faces who'd normally get the 07:00. Looking at the App I could see that there wasn't a bus due for another 20 mins meaning the 07:20 was probably cancelled. Looking at the buildup of punters I deduced there was probably a breakdown. Checked the App, saw there was a bus within 5 mins going the other way. Crossed the road, hopped on down to the LUAS stop at Stillorgan and got that into town. No fuss. As I suspected, an 11 was parked down the lower kilmacud road having clearly broken down.

Seems to me many in this thread would have stayed at the stop huffing and puffing for another 20 minutes muttering about how terrible DB is. Breakdowns happen. A driver due to start at 06:30 may call in sick and be unable to be replaced at such short notice. I don't know, seems to me you need to be realistic, be armed with a flexible travel card and a willingness to research the available options and sometimes walk 15 minutes to another location if one route is delayed.

The key point is that the improvement in reliability / options / information since I became a regular DB user in 2001 is extraordinary. Predictable progress year on year on year. I honestly don't give two ****s what the bus service is like in Berlin or whererver. The one we have is good enough imo.

end of the road

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

79a

always found that route reliable. almost always took it over what was at the time the 78a. i think its a longer route but funnily enough i found it quicker

MrMorooka

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Looking at the App I could see that there wasn't a bus due for another 20 mins meaning the 07:20 was probably cancelled.

That's not really particularly obvious though- it is just as likely there was a problem with the RTPI, or that the driver hadn't signed in yet, etc.

The other night, I surmised from missing RTPI info that a particular bus(1930 no70 from the city centre) had been cancelled, just as you did. As it happened, the bus appeared at the timetabled time anyway- for whatever reason it wasn't on RTPI for the stop I was at.

There is huge scope for more information to be provided. Rather than having people making assumptions based on RTPI, why can't the app have announcements? And display these announcements at the RTPI poles. In your case, obviously the controller for the route knew about the breakdown and the impact it would have- why is there no way to efficiently get that local knowledge out there to potential passengers?

I agree DB has improved immensely over the last few years- I can't imagine going back to how it was. But there is still a lot more that can be done, mainly around journey time(which is atrocious due to a multitude of factors and requires a multi-agency solution) and passenger information(which is the best it ever has been, but still doesn't cope well with the unexpected).

punisher5112

A lot could be changed with the service.
Fully agree but a lot can be done to improve things as a passenger.

Give a few examples

Que up properly, have leap card out/money/travel pass.
Get on as quick as you can and get a seat and try leave room on aisle.

If you have a buggy be prepared to fold it if 1 is onboard already or a wheelchair is on.
Don't wait for everyone to get on after seeing the space is taken and then try and get on without folding even when you have already seen space is gone.

Don't be disrespectful to staff or others onboard by doing things like nail varnish, eating horrible stinking food which isn't permitted anyway, talking loudly on phone, playing music through speaker and loud headphones.

Don't leave dirty tissue and chewing gum on seats,
Don't leave bottles to roll around especially filled with urine, cans etc.

I can totally understand why in some circumstances people would rather walk,cycle or drive rather then put up with above going ons.

LuckyLloyd

MrMorooka wrote: »

That's not really particularly obvious though- it is just as likely there was a problem with the RTPI, or that the driver hadn't signed in yet, etc.

The other night, I surmised from missing RTPI info that a particular bus(1930 no70 from the city centre) had been cancelled, just as you did. As it happened, the bus appeared at the timetabled time anyway- for whatever reason it wasn't on RTPI for the stop I was at.

There is huge scope for more information to be provided. Rather than having people making assumptions based on RTPI, why can't the app have announcements? And display these announcements at the RTPI poles. In your case, obviously the controller for the route knew about the breakdown and the impact it would have- why is there no way to efficiently get that local knowledge out there to potential passengers?

I agree DB has improved immensely over the last few years- I can't imagine going back to how it was. But there is still a lot more that can be done, mainly around journey time(which is atrocious due to a multitude of factors and requires a multi-agency solution) and passenger information(which is the best it ever has been, but still doesn't cope well with the unexpected).

I certainly agree that the RTPI display could be improved. A status for each bus or route is probably where it needs to go next, and finding a way to break the link of driver sign in to information supply. If a bus has been cancelled or broken down let us all know!!

No doubt it will get there though.

Aard

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Checked the App, saw there was a bus within 5 mins going the other way. Crossed the road, hopped on down to the LUAS stop at Stillorgan and got that into town. No fuss.

You're right that you have to be pragmatic with public transport. There are many variables that are outside of any central control. However, at the same time not everybody will be able to respond in the same way. In the above example, you'd firstly need a phone with data and to have downloaded the DB app. If you've a DB monthly/annual card then the Luas trip is an extra expense. And it's only OK if the destination is around Stephen's Green. It worked for you, but it might not work for most.

The main problem arises, however, not in the single instance but when unreliability occurs over time. If you're late to work a few times due to the bus, you're gonna make changes. For a lot of people, the changes won't be to wake up earlier for the same unreliable (in their eyes) service, nor would it be to invest in a bike and cycle, but instead to take the car that is likely in the driveway. At that point, you've lost that person as a public tranport customer for at least a decade.

LuckyLloyd

Aard wrote: »

You're right that you have to be pragmatic with public transport. There are many variables that are outside of any central control. However, at the same time not everybody will be able to respond in the same way. In the above example, you'd firstly need a phone with data and to have downloaded the DB app. If you've a DB monthly/annual card then the Luas trip is an extra expense. And it's only OK if the destination is around Stephen's Green. It worked for you, but it might not work for most.

The main problem arises, however, not in the single instance but when unreliability occurs over time. If you're late to work a few times due to the bus, you're gonna make changes. For a lot of people, the changes won't be to wake up earlier for the same unreliable (in their eyes) service, nor would it be to invest in a bike and cycle, but instead to take the car that is likely in the driveway. At that point, you've lost that person as a public tranport customer for at least a decade.

Are people never late to work in a car due to traffic? Commuting is one of life's evils, only rendered unnecessary if one has the resources to choose one or both of their workplace and residence. If the following things hold true:

- the car is more reliable for a particular commuter than public transport;
- they are able and willing to pay the additional per annum cost to run a car over purchasing an annual travel card;

Then let them take the car.

An Annual Bus / LUAS card is substantially cheaper than running a car when all things are considered (insurance / tax / gas / depreciation). But the service offered by a public transport will inevitably be less flexible than that available to you in your own personal motorised transport.

Being later than you like happens to everyone from time to time. You suck it up and work the other end of the day to make up for it. If you live in Goatstown and are choosing the 11 as your commuting method on a daily basis well you need to get up early and travel off peak. And in my opinion, you should be leaving yourself the flexibility to walk a few minutes and hop on a LUAS if needs be. Bear in mind that the route down the Clonskeagh road and through Ranelagh into town is a standstill in a car past 07:30 every morning too.

Research and choices. If you decide to be a phoneless cash customer of public transport and wish to try and commute on a medium frequency bus route via a choked rush hour artery during peak commuting times...you've lost the right to complain imo.

Dyr

Another day of network direct busses late and buncheed together, busses too full to allow customers on , some things never change until you introduce competition

end of the road

Bambi wrote: »

Another day of network direct busses late and buncheed together, busses too full to allow customers on , some things never change until you introduce competition

what "competition" . "competition" isn't going to change bunching busses. more bus lanes, more bus priority, and enforcement is about all that might.

Dyr

end of the road wrote: »

what "competition" . "competition" isn't going to change bunching busses. more bus lanes, more bus priority, and enforcement is about all that might.

Being the only show in town breeds poor customer service, sad truth

A bus company that saw the obvious flaws in those network direct plans would do a lot of for bunching busses. I've heard this cry over and over from dublin bus emplyees "shure tis not out fault,we need XYZ and ABC" and even when XYZ and ABC are duly delivered the service remains sub par.

While we're on the subject of enforcement, saw a 40 cutting straight through a red light at a busy pedestrian crossing a few hours ago, fairly regular occurrence at numerous junctions in the city centre, nassau street, pearse street etc. So not all bad news for dublin bus when it comes to lack of enforcement eh?

It would be interesting to compare what dublin bus services are like through areas that are serviced by the luas and dart as opposed to areas that have to rely solely on dublin bus

end of the road

Bambi wrote: »

Being the only show in town breeds poor customer service, sad truth

and being the only show in town on a route tendered out or not is whats going to happen most likely.

Bambi wrote: »

A bus company that saw the obvious flaws in those network direct plans would do a lot of for bunching busses.

not necessarily.

Bambi wrote: »

I've heard this cry over and over from dublin bus emplyees "shure tis not out fault,we need XYZ and ABC" and even when XYZ and ABC are duly delivered the service remains sub par.

duly delivered, or duly delivered the irish way, a half arsed measure?

Bambi wrote: »

While we're on the subject of enforcement, saw a 40 cutting straight through a red light at a busy pedestrian crossing a few hours ago, fairly regular occurrence at numerous junctions in the city centre, nassau street, pearse street etc.

did you report this?

cdebru

Bambi wrote: »

Being the only show in town breeds poor customer service, sad truth

A bus company that saw the obvious flaws in those network direct plans would do a lot of for bunching busses. I've heard this cry over and over from dublin bus emplyees "shure tis not out fault,we need XYZ and ABC" and even when XYZ and ABC are duly delivered the service remains sub par.

While we're on the subject of enforcement, saw a 40 cutting straight through a red light at a busy pedestrian crossing a few hours ago, fairly regular occurrence at numerous junctions in the city centre, nassau street, pearse street etc. So not all bad news for dublin bus when it comes to lack of enforcement eh?

It would be interesting to compare what dublin bus services are like through areas that are serviced by the luas and dart as opposed to areas that have to rely solely on dublin bus

Hmmm might be good to look at the proposed tendering arrangements, the "bus company" won't have any say over where the buses go they will just be paid on a kilometre driven basis no difference how many if any passengers do or don't use the service they will be paid to provide.

As for network direct, it was Dublin bus drivers that were here pointing out the faults in network direct and particularly that cross citying routes would make them unreliable and unpredictable, whule the usual experts here were cheer leading how great cross city services would be, drivers were also pointing out that the whole thing was based on a falsehood that the same level of service could be delivered with less buses, as the country has started to emerge from the prolonged downturn, it has just shown what was true 5 years ago.

Where has xyz or ABC been delivered ?


In what respect do you want to compare services ? Do the buses going out to tallaght not run late, get stuck in traffic , break down, have their windows smashed because the Luas runs out to tallaght as well ?? No it is completely different Dublin Bus manages to avoid all those things and have built secret tunnels to tallaght to avoid the traffic, and the drivers all wear tuxedos and dickie bows and call everyone sir or madame, and they all get to travel for child fares.

bk

For 30 years Dublin Bus has been delivering a terrible bus service to Dublin. Many, if not most of the problems of Dublin Bus have been created by themselves 30 years ago and they have no one but themselves to blame.

It is clear that DB aren't willing to change, so Dublins city bus services should be ripped out of their hands and given to another company to give it a go, it really can't be any worse.

We shouldn't be rewarding such mediocre performance with a monopoly.

_Kaiser_

bk wrote: »

For 30 years Dublin Bus has been delivering a terrible bus service to Dublin. Many, if not most of the problems of Dublin Bus have been created by themselves 30 years ago and they have no one but themselves to blame.

It is clear that DB aren't willing to change, so Dublins city bus services should be ripped out of their hands and given to another company to give it a go, it really can't be any worse.

We shouldn't be rewarding such mediocre performance with a monopoly.

.. and that's pretty much it IMO

Before there was an NTA, or Celtic Tiger, or cars everywhere, LUAS lines or limited competition from other services, Dublin Bus (and CIE in general) has always been terrible to mediocre at best and the responsibility for that lies solely with the company and its employees.

Providing public transport isn't rocket science - there's any number of examples and experiences to draw and learn from, yet DB continues to lag behind and are still not providing the comprehensive service that the city needs.. as I said before, it's absolute nonsense that in 2015 we still don't have an all-night regular bus service as but one example.

CIE had their chance and they blew it.. time for them to make way (and be forced to do so!) for someone who can do the job they had decades to get right and didn't!

punisher5112

Absolutely no need for an all night bus service as we are such a small island.

Taxi took away business from nitelinks so the ceased there us during weekdays.

DB has its problems and lots can be changed but we need better roads and priority bus only sections and light control systems.

Bus takes way to long to clear junctions and sit in traffic all around city and surrounding areas.

Putting in a tiny stretch of bus lane doesn't work and the contra flow sections which are for buses on route only have taxis, cars, coaches in them all the time.

Passenger education is a priority I believe should be introduced as they in a lot of cases seem to take absolutely no responsibility and I am quite surprized at how they are able to dress themselves.

Dwell times are attrocious at stops and needs to be looked at even with Leap card it taked way too long and the machines are so slow.

ShakerMaker91

ye Dubs should be grateful ye even have a bus service we have ZERO public transport links around our area currently

end of the road

bk wrote: »

It is clear that DB aren't willing to change, so Dublins city bus services should be ripped out of their hands and given to another company to give it a go

no . would be a waste of time seeing as its the NTA making all the decisians.

bk wrote: »

it really can't be any worse.

well, if it can't be any worse, then that is proof there is no point in removing a public bus service from a public company.

bk wrote: »

We shouldn't be rewarding such mediocre performance with a monopoly.

and a private monopoly would be better? no thanks. we aren't rewarding anything. frankly i'd rather a mediocre public monopoly then a private one that "shur couldn't do any worse" . the NTA makes all the decisians, tendering isn't going to change anything, the NTA'S decisians might.

end of the road

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

it's absolute nonsense that in 2015 we still don't have an all-night regular bus service

i agree. but who is paying for it

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

CIE had their chance and they blew it..

they didn't. public owned company for public bus service

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

time for them to make way

for who? private companies? no thanks. not time for them to make way at all as its their bus service. public bus company for a public service. if private companies want to run dublin services they run along side dublin bus and survive on their own merits as a luxury extra.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

(and be forced to do so!)

any attempt to force them to do so should be met with a fearce responce. i will be backing them all the way whatever they do to stop themselves being forced out.

LuckyLloyd

bk wrote: »

For 30 years Dublin Bus has been delivering a terrible bus service to Dublin. Many, if not most of the problems of Dublin Bus have been created by themselves 30 years ago and they have no one but themselves to blame.

It is clear that DB aren't willing to change, so Dublins city bus services should be ripped out of their hands and given to another company to give it a go, it really can't be any worse.

We shouldn't be rewarding such mediocre performance with a monopoly.

I use it every day. It isn't terrible.

The change in the end service to the customer since 2001 is extraordinary and a regular user can see the improvements year on year on year.

bk

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I use it every day. It isn't terrible.

The change in the end service to the customer since 2001 is extraordinary and a regular user can see the improvements year on year on year.

LuckyLloyd, have you ever used city bus services in other European cities? For instance London or Poland (e.g. Krakow, same population size as Dublin)

DB are ok, they eventually get you there, but they really aren't a patch on what is the norm in modern European cities.

Want to get a bus after 11:30 in Dublin? Tough, get a taxi. Most Eureopean cities have full, normal 24 hour bus services.

Also DB takes almost twice the time to cover the same distance due to the dreadful dwell time compared to most other European cities.

If you never travelled widely on city bus services in other european cities, then you might not have realised how poor DB is in comparison.

You might have seen some minor improvements over the last few years, but they are still way behind what you would expect for a modern European capital city and that is simply unacceptable.

devnull

A lot of the improvements in recent years are down to better regulation and the creation of the NTA as well who have taken a much more hand son approach to developing the cities transport.

Dublin Bus have also improved, but a good part od that is down to the fact now they are more properly held to accoun and have less light touch regulation.

I don't think Dublin Bus is terrible, just very average, in the last 2-3 years especially things have improved for sure, but they're a long way from being excellent.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

LuckyLloyd, have you ever used city bus services in other European cities? For instance London or Poland (e.g. Krakow, same population size as Dublin)

yes, i've used londons bus services. yeah they have lots of helpful bells and whistles but i won't die without them. and the service is payed for in full.

bk wrote: »

DB are ok, they eventually get you there, but they really aren't a patch on what is the norm in modern European cities.

well, maybe dublin isn't like other european cities. for a start making dublin public transport friendly has been difficult at best. also the busses being socially necessary, they have to serve as many places as possible on certain routes, large amounts of traffic with not enough bus lanes and i doubt any bus priority, dwell times due to various reasons, makes travel time longer.

bk wrote: »

Want to get a bus after 11:30 in Dublin? Tough, get a taxi.

yes, but who is funding such a bus service if its to be implemented? i'd like to see it implemented but unless someone wishes to fund it its not happening.

bk wrote: »

Most Eureopean cities have full, normal 24 hour bus services.

thats because they are payed for and funded in full.

bk wrote: »

Also DB takes almost twice the time to cover the same distance due to the dreadful dwell time compared to most other European cities.

while its a bit annoying, thats how our system works for various reasons.

bk wrote: »

If you never travelled widely on city bus services in other european cities, then you might not have realised how poor DB is in comparison.

they aren't that poor. improvements have happened and they will happen, but dublins bus service needs to be matched to dublins situation. all well and good going on about other european cities but they have a very different set up to us in terms of everything.

bk wrote: »

You might have seen some minor improvements over the last few years, but they are still way behind what you would expect for a modern European capital city

well, maybe dublin is different to other cities. instead of trying and probably failing to implement a european model, how about coming up with our own ideas for once, and implement a bus service that matches dublins requirements.

bk wrote: »

that is simply unacceptable.

well, you want european style transport, lobby the government to pay for it. i would even join you

howiya

cdebru wrote: »

You ignore the point the ingredients aren't there for supplying a quality service, every morning I see delivery drivers parked in bus lanes when there is an empty loading bay not 100 meters away, why because nobody does anything to stop them, everyday I see taxi drivers park up at bus stops creating pop up ranks, but nobody does anything, school starting and finishing times privates cars blocking the streets the pedestrian crossings the bus stops, nobody does anything, cars piling into bus lanes 500, 1000 metres early to queue for turns, this is not random nobody knows when it will happen stuff this is the same people in the same places doing the same things, day in day out nothing is done.

The NTA goes out and buys double door buses whoopie, how does that fix the problem, if you just ignore bus stop location and design ? Why didn't they do an audit route by route stop by stop and see which stops in the normal course are safe for dual door use and which aren't and then work at fixing or moving those that aren't up to standard ? No just half arsed buy the buses and it will fix itself, like everything in this country paint a white line, bring in a new law, no need to do anything else ah sure it will be grand. It is actually laughable to follow the Gardai on Twitter and see them post pictures of cars blocking footpaths or dangerously parked or with faulty lights, eh how about leading by example the amount of garda cars with faulty lights is unreal, they park in bus stops, on footpaths in bus lanes on double yellow lines, someone tweeted them a picture the other day of a Garda van completely blocking a footpath up near the new courts of justice, it wasn't parked there the next day but a private car was in the exact same spot, monkey see monkey do.



Yes we don't have a fully functioning transport system, but that won't change no matter who operates it, unless all the other stuff is addressed, DB is not perfect, but a lot of the stuff it takes flak for are stuff beyond their control.

You ignore anything that Dublin Bus and its employees can improve themselves. Lets just put our heads in the sand and blame the NTA or the lack of law enforcement

Is it the NTA's decision that passengers are left waiting on drivers to finish chatting about their weekend or the price of fish at driver handover spots before continuing their journey?

Is it the NTA's fault that a scheduled bus will appear on RTPI until it in theory passes the stop and never arrive? I queried this through Twitter once and the response was that there was no driver to operate the service. Surely it shouldn't have appeared on RTPI in that instance. No apology for the inconvenience in the response from Dublin Bus either

The bottom line is Dublin Bus and its staff don't treat passengers as customers and I assume you will reply and say that is up to the NTA.

bk

end of the road you are bringing up the funding red herring again!

Dublin Bus is well funded, reports done for the NTA show that DB receives subsidies in line with the European average, but delivers a service well below european average.

Dublin Bus not only receives direct subsidies, but it also benefits from many very generous indirect subsidies.

- Brand new buses bought for it by the government over the last 3 years. Now makes up almost 25% of DB fleet.
- Bus depots bought and paid for it by the taxpayer.
- Free travel paid for by the government.
- Up to 50% of monthly and yearly commuter tickets paid for by the government.

All adds up to an EXTREMELY well funded service.

Here is a reply by the Minister of Transport, Leo Varadaker to a question in 2013:

In the NTA’s recently published economic analyis of Direct Award Bus Contract in the Dublin market, it was stated that a comparative analysis of subvention levels across Europe indicated that levels of public transport subvention vary between 35 and 60 percent of revenue. It added that when all State interventions (including the PSO subvention, Free Travel Scheme, tax foregone as a result of the Taxsaver scheme, emergency funding and funding for the purchase of new buses) are taken into account, the level of subvention to Dublin Bus is at the upper end of the range and approaches 50%.

Fact, DB is highly subvented already.

Fact, DB has one of the highest per km running costs of any city bus service in Europe.

Fact, DB drivers are the third best paid in Europe.

Yet despite all this high level of funding, they manage to deliver a very mediocre, below average service!

end of the road

bk wrote: »

Dublin Bus is well funded, reports done for the NTA show that DB receives subsidies in line with the European average, but delivers a service well below european average.

reports from who. i'd doubt its well below european average, a bit maybe. but we have different requirements and a different set up compared to other cities. yes its far from perfect but no public transport is and ever will be.

bk wrote: »

Dublin Bus not only receives direct subsidies, but it also benefits from many very generous indirect subsidies.

- Brand new buses bought for it by the government over the last 3 years. Now makes up almost 25% of DB fleet.
- Bus depots bought and paid for it by the taxpayer.
- Free travel paid for by the government.
- Up to 50% of monthly and yearly commuter tickets paid for by the government.

so it should being a public bus service.

bk wrote: »

All adds up to an EXTREMELY well funded service.

clearly not if your not getting the bells and whistles you are requiring

bk wrote: »

Here is a reply by the Minister of Transport, Leo Varadaker to a question in 2013:

varadkar. enough said. i wouldn't believe anything that comes out of the government if i'm honest.

bk wrote: »

Fact, DB is highly subvented already.

subvented decently, but could be more. and improvements are happening. to deliver the so called european model you want will require more funding, auditing of stops and routes by the NTA, and a lot more.

bk wrote: »

Fact, DB has one of the highest per km running costs of any city bus service in Europe.

yes, because it runs mostly socially necessary routes that are mostly loss making and they don't get payed in full for the free travel.

bk wrote: »

Fact, DB drivers are the third best paid in Europe.

apparently. doubt it though. i'm glad they are payed well though, it encourages people to take up the job.

bk wrote: »

Yet despite all this high level of funding, they manage to deliver a very mediocre, below average service!

they don't. its not perfect, but improvements are happening. if you want bells and whistles, pay for it

bk

end of the road, haha, so we are supposed to take your word for it over the word of the Minister of Transport in a Dail address!

WOW, just wow! :rolleyes:

And BTW multidoor operations so you can cut journey times in half and 24 hour services aren't "bells and whistles", they are fundamental to running a modern, european city bus service.

DB as I have proven is very highly subsidised, yet fails to deliver even an average european style city bus service. Why do you think throwing even more money at them will make any difference?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -- Albert Einstein

And to be honest you blindly defending your employer really doesn't help your case that DB recognise their faults and can make the necessary improvements.

In fact every time I read your comments, it makes me more and more convinced that Dublins city bus services need to be taken out of the hands of Dublin Bus and given to a new company.

end of the road

1. yeah, i wouldn't trust ff and fg as far as i could throw them.
2. multi door operations will happen eventually, all be it stops should be audited for safety, and those unsuited to multi-door operation should be re-located or shut if a stop is near by that is suitable.
3. 24 hour operation will happen eventually on routes where there is demand.
4. i'm not defending my employer as i don't work for dublin bus.
5. dublin bus only needs to deliver a dublin bus service. to deliver a european bus service will require huge audits of everything from traffic management bus priority bus lanes stops and more, and the enforcement of said. who is paying for it.
5. dublin bus realized their faults long ago and have been improving year on year.
6. taking the bus service out of dublin busses hands and giving it to another company won't change anything. it would be doing it for the sake of it. companies aren't going to change anything. the NTA is making the decisians. you want dublin busses services to be taken from dublin bus and the people for the sake of it. a waste of time. public bus service = public owned company.

bk

end of the road, we should be taking bus services out of Dublin Buses hands because we simply shouldn't be rewarding mediocrity.

DB has done a terrible job delivering city bus services to Dublin for the past 30 years and we certainly shouldn't be rewarding it for that!

You claim DB will introduce multi door operations and 24 hour running. But we see zero evidence of this. DB could and should have introduced these 30 years ago like the rest of Europe, but it couldn't be bothered, in fact it did the opposite. Just look at how it can't be bothered to operate the new dual dorr buses bought for it by the NTA!

It looks like the NTA will finally deliver European style multi-door operations and 24 hour running via the new BRT lines. It is looking like DB drivers will be operating those buses and I've no problem with that. But I'm delighted this service is being designed by the NTA with little or no involvement from DB management who have proven themselves to be completely incompetent.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

we should be taking bus services out of Dublin Buses hands because we simply shouldn't be rewarding mediocrity.

we aren't rewarding anything. and we shouldn't be taking public bus services out of the hands of a public company. public companies for socially necessary public transport services with private operators operating nice to have but not necessary services.

bk wrote: »

DB has done a terrible job delivering city bus services to Dublin for the past 30 years and we certainly shouldn't be rewarding it for that!

we are not rewarding anything. lots of improvements have been made, its nothing like 30 years ago, even 10.

bk wrote: »

You claim DB will introduce multi door operations and 24 hour running. But we see zero evidence of this.

i don't clame anything of the sort. its the NTA making the decisians. dublin bus will only be doing what the NTA tells them. dublin bus just makes representations. no point in introducing multi-door operation until an audit of all stops where its proposed takes place to ensure safety, with irelands compo culture this is important.

bk wrote: »

DB could and should have introduced these 30 years ago like the rest of Europe, but it couldn't be bothered

couldn't be bothered? or there just wasn't a demand for it 30 years ago? i'd imagine funding was most likely given grudgingly and was pittence also. your comparing cities which were set up for public transport and which weren't car centric to a city which wasn't, still mostly isn't, and is mostly car centric.

bk wrote: »

in fact it did the opposite. Just look at how it can't be bothered to operate the new dual dorr buses bought for it by the NTA!

it can't be bothered, or the NTA is satisfied there is a genuine reason?

bk wrote: »

It looks like the NTA will finally deliver European style multi-door operations and 24 hour running via the new BRT lines.

if they happen. it will also be delivered to other routes in due course by the NTA should the demand be sufficient

bk wrote: »

It is looking like DB drivers will be operating those buses and I've no problem with that. But I'm delighted this service is being designed by the NTA with little or no involvement from DB management who have proven themselves to be completely incompetent.

how do you know its little or no involvement? all stake holders will be heard will they not? currently the NTA is making the decisians in general, all companies operating will have input but the authority makes the decisians. so as you have an issue with no multi-door operation, rather then simply blaming dublin bus, contact the NTA and ask their position on the matter. i'd be interested to hear what they say.

cdebru

howiya wrote: »

You ignore anything that Dublin Bus and its employees can improve themselves. Lets just put our heads in the sand and blame the NTA or the lack of law enforcement

Is it the NTA's decision that passengers are left waiting on drivers to finish chatting about their weekend or the price of fish at driver handover spots before continuing their journey?

Is it the NTA's fault that a scheduled bus will appear on RTPI until it in theory passes the stop and never arrive? I queried this through Twitter once and the response was that there was no driver to operate the service. Surely it shouldn't have appeared on RTPI in that instance. No apology for the inconvenience in the response from Dublin Bus either

The bottom line is Dublin Bus and its staff don't treat passengers as customers and I assume you will reply and say that is up to the NTA.

The NTA operate the RTPI that is how it works, that is how it is supposed to work, if it only predicted buses once they commenced the journey it would be far worse than the way it is now.

And seriously the best you can come up with is 2 drivers having a chat ???? Does this happen every driver change over you experience because it doesn't in my experience in fact I have never been held up by drivers chatting during a hand over.... Not once.


The bottom line is that DB do treat their passengers as customers, sometimes I would suggest too much so when certain passengers have become abusive and even violent, DB management seem to have adopted a the passenger is always right attitude, when in my opinion some of those people should be banned from buses not given free tickets and an apology but there you go.

Dyr

cdebru wrote: »

The bottom line is that DB do treat their passengers as customers.

They truly don't.

And the standard procedure for a driver handover appears to be as follows

pull in
realise replacement driver is late
turn off engine
do not communicate the situation to passengers
Allow passengers to alight
Have chin wag or moan at replacement driver when he shows up
go on your merry way


Or one classic I had in parnell square:
Pull in
Tell passengers that the next driver will not be due for 15 minutes
Watch all the customers get off the bus
Pull out and continue on your route sans pesky customers

end of the road

Bambi wrote: »

They truly don't.

oh they truely do for the most part. every company has its bad apples.

And the standard procedure for a driver handover appears to be as follows

pull in
realise replacement driver is late
turn off engine
do not communicate the situation to passengers
Allow passengers to alight
Have chin wag or moan at replacement driver when he shows up
go on your merry way[/QUOTE]

not their fault if the replacement is late, thats the replacements fault. i believe they have to turn off the engine. your always allowed to get off if you want you don't have to.

Bambi wrote: »

Or one classic I had in parnell square:
Pull in
Tell passengers that the next driver will not be due for 15 minutes
Watch all the customers get off the bus
Pull out and continue on your route sans pesky customers

yeah, one bad apple. did you report this to dublin bus? are you sure there wasn't an issue with the bus and he was instructed to drive it to the depot as they were short?

cdebru

bk wrote: »

end of the road, haha, so we are supposed to take your word for it over the word of the Minister of Transport in a Dail address!

WOW, just wow! :rolleyes:

And BTW multidoor operations so you can cut journey times in half and 24 hour services aren't "bells and whistles", they are fundamental to running a modern, european city bus service.

DB as I have proven is very highly subsidised, yet fails to deliver even an average european style city bus service. Why do you think throwing even more money at them will make any difference?



And to be honest you blindly defending your employer really doesn't help your case that DB recognise their faults and can make the necessary improvements.

In fact every time I read your comments, it makes me more and more convinced that Dublins city bus services need to be taken out of the hands of Dublin Bus and given to a new company.

Seriously ??? Are you really that delusional or are you attempting to troll ? Do you really believe that multi door use would half journey times ???? If the best you can come up with is multi door use and 24 hour services you really need to try harder or you seriously have f*** all to complain about.

Multi door use makes very little difference on dwell times for the vast majority of stops even during peak times, most routes are going to and from the city center at peak times they are mostly loafing till they get to the last few stops in the city then they are mostly unloading, multi door use ( where one door is for boarding and another is for alightling ) would make little to no difference and 100% would never in a million years half journey times, the only routes where it would really make a difference would be cross city routes but only at the stops where you would have significant loading and unloading at the same stop but that would only be 2 or 3 stops across routes with 40+ stops and it would certainly not half the journey times or anywhere near it. In actual fact stopping and opening both doors at all stops even when both door were not required would probably balance out that any gains made on the handful of stops would be lost on the many stops where it is not required so journey times wouldn't be any different tbh. What makes journey times long and unpredictable is competing with private cars for road space and the lack of enforcement of the half arsed priority measures we do have, simple as that.

As for 24 hour services, there is very little demand, probably limited to routes to the airport and certainly not enough demand to make it anyway financially sustainable across the city if you dont believe that then a quick look at the small number of private operators bares this out, they aren't operating 24 hours, so if we want it then you have to work out how it is going to be paid for but dont expect it to be operated on a commercial basis.

Now if you complained about lack of integrated timetabling, unrelaible journey times, number of bus stops etc you might possibly be serious or at least taken seriously but the nonsense you are currently spouting makes you look like someone who is just trying.to get a rise out.of other posters tbh.

cdebru

Bambi wrote: »

They truly don't.

And the standard procedure for a driver handover appears to be as follows

pull in
realise replacement driver is late
turn off engine
do not communicate the situation to passengers
Allow passengers to alight
Have chin wag or moan at replacement driver when he shows up
go on your merry way


Or one classic I had in parnell square:
Pull in
Tell passengers that the next driver will not be due for 15 minutes
Watch all the customers get off the bus
Pull out and continue on your route sans pesky customers

Ahem I'm not going to defend mid journey handovers because they were one of the reasons I pointed out cross city routes are a pain to organise, but that said the way DB does them is poor mainly because buses can generally arrive within a 20 minute window either side of their predicted arrival but DB only pay a driver to be there at the predicted time, so bus arrives early no driver, and some drivers are unwilling to announce that they are waiting for a driver because it sounds like the arriving driver is at fault or is holding up the show, they aren't they aren't supposed to be there, the option is really that the driver coming in to hand over takes his time and tries not to arrive early, but then you would have people complaining about the driver delaying the bus deliberately etc.

The last one can and does happen when a controller asks the driver to continue a journey on at the last minute because something has happened to the relieving driver and they won't be there, the driver continuing on didn't know this until they are asked to continue on which was after some of the passengers have left the bus.
Unfortunately some people have a habit of attributing bad intentions to events when they dont actually know what happened

howiya

cdebru wrote: »

Ahem I'm not going to defend mid journey handovers because they were one of the reasons I pointed out cross city routes are a pain to organise, but that said the way DB does them is poor mainly because buses can generally arrive within a 20 minute window either side of their predicted arrival but DB only pay a driver to be there at the predicted time, so bus arrives early no driver, and some drivers are unwilling to announce that they are waiting for a driver because it sounds like the arriving driver is at fault or is holding up the show, they aren't they aren't supposed to be there, the option is really that the driver coming in to hand over takes his time and tries not to arrive early, but then you would have people complaining about the driver delaying the bus deliberately etc.

The last one can and does happen when a controller asks the driver to continue a journey on at the last minute because something has happened to the relieving driver and they won't be there, the driver continuing on didn't know this until they are asked to continue on which was after some of the passengers have left the bus.
Unfortunately some people have a habit of attributing bad intentions to events when they dont actually know what happened

If drivers are not prepared to provide information to passengers then they should not be doing the job

cdebru

howiya wrote: »

If drivers are not prepared to provide information to passengers then they should not be doing the job

Yeah sack them all I say. Or maybe just maybe think what information can the driver give ? The bus is 10 minutes early the next driver is not due for 10 minutes but may arrive anytime within that 10 minutes, so you tell people you are waiting for 10 minutes they jump off the next driver arrives 9 minutes early and then you or someone similar is here complaining that they were told 10 minutes but the bus passed them by 2 minutes later, like it was all some big conspiracy to make you walk. It is damned if you do damned if you don't.

The easiest solution and I have said it here loads of times is that the relief driver should be paid to be there up to 10 minutes before the "official" expected arrival time. That is the best solution until we have a system that can offer reliable journey times.


Sitting around on buses is going to be the future anyway, the NTA want timing points that buses that are ahead of schedule will sit at till they are back on schedule, so arriving 10 minutes early for a relief driver should be a thing of the past, you will just have spent the 10 minutes sitting around somewhere else instead.

bk

cdebru wrote: »

Seriously ??? Are you really that delusional or are you attempting to troll ? Do you really believe that multi door use would half journey times ???? If the best you can come up with is multi door use and 24 hour services you really need to try harder or you seriously have f*** all to complain about.

Yes, I'm very serious, DB's dwell times are just that bad.

Take my earlier example of the bus from the airport in Krakow covering the 16km journey in just 35 minutes, versus the 16 taking at least 45 minutes to cover the 10km to Dublin Airport.

That is an average journey speed of 27km/h in Krakow, versus just 14 km/h for the 16!

And that is from both of their official timetables.

Last week I was sitting on the 16 from town to Drumcondra and I timed it. It took it 30 minutes to just get to Griffith Avenue! Almost 15 minutes of that time was being stopped for ages at bus stops!

This was a Sunday afternoon so little traffic congestion.

Honestly, go travel Europe, and try bus services abroad and you will see how ridiculously bad DB are in comparison.

Dyr

I like how dublin bus employees claim that the company is customer focused and then their every post shows just how far from that they are

Just as a matter of course on making complaints to dublin bus: It begs the question..why? They never act on them and make it obvious that they'd rather not deal with them

Post an issue on their facebook page (obtusely named "dublinbusnews" rather than "dublin bus", this company sucks at digital marketing too it seems) and the poppets running it will tell you they don't really deal with complaints. Send their customer comment address an email and a month later you'll get a response saying their overhauling their helpdesk system so don't hold your breath, then after that you'll get a response blowing you off

In fact, one particularly moany employee told me if you wanted to make a complaint you needed to write them a letter.

That's customer service moreyah

.

strandroad

Bambi wrote: »

Or one classic I had in parnell square:
Pull in
Tell passengers that the next driver will not be due for 15 minutes
Watch all the customers get off the bus
Pull out and continue on your route sans pesky customers

Another classic on the way to the airport: bus stopped for a changeover in Parnell Sq, long wait... and the driver did not arrive. Since then it's only Aircoach/car for me, and most likely for many other passengers who spilled out from the bus dragging their luggage and waving down taxis.

The whole driver changeover idea is only possible if you have your customer at the very bottom of the pile anyway.

Another lovely DB custom is to make all passengers leave their bus and move over to another one waiting in front. Loving the WTF stares from whoever is subject to it for the first time. Or when buses suddenly terminate in the city centre when they were not supposed to.

DB customer service at its best.

dfx-

bk wrote: »

LuckyLloyd, have you ever used city bus services in other European cities? For instance London or Poland (e.g. Krakow, same population size as Dublin)

Judging from his excellent post earlier, I suspect LL is like me, a happy customer who really couldn't care less about any other city, no matter how many you bring up. I have used public transport in a variety of cities and it has no bearing on Dublin at all. I don't know how to say that to make it known.

It took your 16 30 minutes from town to Griffith Avenue...it took my 13 last night 15 minutes from Christchurch to DCU at 8pm. That's excellent time through the heart of the city 99% of your route at busier time. Sometimes it's different, sometimes it's more and sometimes it's less. No big deal.

hmmm

mhge wrote: »

Another lovely DB custom is to make all passengers leave their bus and move over to another one waiting in front. Loving the WTF stares from whoever is subject to it for the first time. Or when buses suddenly terminate in the city centre when they were not supposed to.

What is that about anyway? I experience it a couple of times a year - pulling up on the quays and being told to get off and try and pack into some bus travelling behind.

In fairness to DB though, where I've been on a bus that breaks down they are usually quick at getting a replacement out to us.

strandroad

hmmm wrote: »

What is that about anyway? I experience it a couple of times a year - pulling up on the quays and being told to get off and try and pack into some bus travelling behind.

No idea, I used to use N11 buses a lot and it was happening all the time. Plus changeover funz in Donnybrook. This was supposed to be a quality bus corridor mind