Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

eastern europe and germany don't have the compensation culture ireland has. so making sure bus stops are set up for double door operation is a must before its used. clearly the NTA are happy with dublin bus not using the double doors for this reason otherwise they would be forced to do so. if you have an issue with it take it up with the NTA and ask their position on it.

Both you and I know it's not as simple as telling someone to do it and they will do it overnight.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

The alternative that is being proposed does not include extreme fares or little serivce, since such things would still be under the control of the same people tha they have been foir the last few years, the NTA.

as maybe, but i just went on what the poster said, taking it exactly as it was written

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

no, they were needed because a transport regulator is a must. even if the companies were perfect, we would need a regulator.

We had a toothless regulator before in the minsiter and department for transport. They were useless and little more than yes men for CIE. It's only witht he NTA that we have got some true cusomer focus.

The NTA have done more for Intergration in the last few years than CIE have done in their whole existence, but DB staff do not like them because for once the company is being pressured to run like a public company should be ruin, rather than one that tried to be many things that betrays the whole idea of a having a public bus company for the benefit of the people rather than the staff and company.

VG31

end of the road wrote: »

eastern europe and germany don't have the compensation culture ireland has. so making sure bus stops are set up for double door operation is a must before its used. clearly the NTA are happy with dublin bus not using the double doors for this reason otherwise they would be forced to do so. if you have an issue with it take it up with the NTA and ask their position on it.

How are the middle doors any different to the front doors? I often see the front doors opened far off the kerb.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

as maybe, but i just went on what the poster said, taking it exactly as it was written

There is no maybe about it, it is a constant myth that is put out there by certain groups and certain sections of the society and political spectrum to cause scaremongering.

I haven't seen anyone here even say de-regulation or full privatization like the UK outside London should happen, I'm dead against it since it can be abused and isn't good for consumers, but then again the current situation is either so that is why the original tendering proposals were a good compromise that takes away the power of any operator, public or private, to use vested interests above the greater good.

VG31

One solution to the middle door problem is use the Berlin door control system.

The middle and rear doors are automatic and are released when the drivers puts on a switch called the bus stop brake switch. The front doors are controlled by the driver.
In some places instead of automatic doors, after the driver puts on the door release switch, alighting passengers press a button beside the doors to open them.

With this the driver doesn't have the added responsibility of opening the middle doors.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

So what you are saying is that Dublin Bus should put it's own interests above that of the traveling public?

did i say that? i said if they are forcibly removed from the equation i would support them fighting back by whatever means necessary as i believe dublin bus should stay and the NTA can implement the changes they are doing.

devnull wrote: »

I couldn't care less who operates the service, I just care about the standard of it.

thats fine. i care about both, and i want dublin bus to stay and the NTA to implement the changes. they are a far cry from years ago. improvements are happening but things need to be given a chance and a while to happen. things don't happen over night.

devnull

A proper public city bus service should never be about one operator, or any element other than the quality of service delivered to the public, since that is what public services are for.

They are not for any individual or company to seek to pursue then own agenda for their own benefit, this is one of the fundamental arguments as to why such services should be publicly run int he first place, because private companies would try and pursue their own agenda for their own benefit.

If people want to pursue their own commercial, or personal or go into a company that is run for their benefit over the public, isn't that what the private sector is about? But it seems some people want the best of both worlds and the irony is the same people who spend so long moaning about private companies going ahead and only doing what suits then and this is why public is better, are wanting their own company to do the very same thing to further their own cause.

Mahogany

devnull wrote: »

A proper public city bus service should never be about one operator, or any element other than the quality of service delivered to the public, since that is what public services are for.

They are not for any individual or company to seek to pursue then own agenda for their own benefit, this is one of the fundamental arguments as to why such services should be publicly run int he first place, because private companies would try and pursue their own agenda for their own benefit.

If people want to pursue their own commercial, or personal or go into a company that is run for their benefit over the public, isn't that what the private sector is about? But it seems some people want the best of both worlds and the irony is the same people who spend so long moaning about private companies going ahead and only doing what suits then and this is why public is better, are wanting their own company to do the very same thing to further their own cause.

Sure someone on another thread said he tries to make the most money he can for his "company"

His company is the public, as it's a public service, NOT run for profit but to provide the best service possible for the public.

Teyla Emmagan

Got on the 15 to town today. Went upstairs and sat down amidst about 12 Italian students. In Rathgar they all stood up and proceeded to stand the whole way down the stairs, with about 3 left on the top deck. And the bus stops, but they don't get off. And again. And the whole stairs is blocked. Next I hear a voice going "if you're not getting off then sit back down because no one else can get on or off. There are people out there in the rain who want to get on this bus".

So all 12 traipse back upstairs. Only they don't all sit down. And the next minutes the bus driver on on the tannoy going "you can't stand upstairs on the bus. I appreciate there is a language barrier but you need to either sit down or come downstairs". So the man beside me asks where they were going. Portobello, it turns out. They are were standing up in Rathgar to get off the bus in Portobello! On a rainy morning that is a 20 minute journey!

So we eventually reach Portobello and the bus driver is back on going "On behalf of Dublin Bus I would like to welcome our new Italian visitors to Dublin. We hope you enjoy yourselves as you learn to get around our city". And everybody smiled.

Anyway I thought it was quite well handled considering what a pain they were being!!

stehyl15

I wonder if we'll ever see those stt lads from the luas and the dart on rougher buses

cdebru

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Not if "our" way is more inefficient or expensive, no.

As I've said before on this thread.. it's a bloody city bus service - it's not rocket science. No-one is asking DB to develop the service from scratch or reinvent the wheel.. just learn from what's been done successfully elsewhere and adapt as necessary for Dublin - but without the "typically Irish twist" that leaves us with tri-axle buses with single doors for example, or bendi-buses that don't use the other doors they had as another one, or missing buses, delayed passengers and poor customer service being consistent.

The point as well is that DB had decades to get this right on their own without virtually any interference, but instead they used it as a job scheme for their employees (which continues to this day). As someone else said above, the fact that service improvements are slowly starting to filter down to the street has very little to do with DB, and everything to do with the NTA who were put there BECAUSE DB were incapable of doing it themselves!

And despite EOTR's insistence that we should fully fund a public bus service regardless of its performance, or (even more absurdly) allow a competing private service but only if it runs alongside the incumbent, we should in fact support the NTA in setting SLA's, PSOs, timetables and penalties for not adhering to same, repossess the depots the taxpayer has paid for (and then allow them to be shared by whatever operators serve that area) and force DB to compete with other providers on their own merit.

If they succeed well and good.. if not then they should be removed from the obligations they're already failing to deliver upon.

The point is that you are blaming DB for stuff that is/was out of their control and was foisted upon them, Dublin Bus never wanted bendi buses but some gob****e seen them somewhere and insisted we have them as well, of course much like the current NTA and their purchase dual door buses no one bothered to do anything to make them actually work and people presumed a bendi bus would magically fit into the space you allocated for a normal bus, just like the NTA assume that some magic fairy will fix all the stops they are responsible for and make them suitable for the brand new double door buses, and sure if the fairy fails to emerge people like yourself will just blame DB anyway.
Dublin Bus meets and exceeds all the SLA as set down by the NTA, they regularly do reports on it you can check it up on the NTA website, so it is not being funded regardless it is being funded because it is performing exactly how it is requested and agreed to perform.

What obligations are they failing on ?

cdebru

Mahogany wrote: »

Sure someone on another thread said he tries to make the most money he can for his "company"

His company is the public, as it's a public service, NOT run for profit but to provide the best service possible for the public.

Yeah in response to you complaining about drivers insisting passengers pay their correct fare, if you had your way everyone would pay what they felt like and presumably the magic money tree would pay the actual cost of providing the service.
Providing the best service also means trying to ensure that everyone pays what they are supposed to otherwise those willing to pay end up paying more to cover the cost for those unwilling to pay.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

One set of doors with a driver is grossly slow and it's ridicolous that in a capital city in 2015 we have that situation. I'm not saying that two doors with driver interaction is any vast improvement though, both of these setups are nowhere near as beneficent as the system needs to be.



Well at least they actually have some vision and are trying to change things rather than leaving the broken system broke and stuck in the past like DB did when they had a free reign. The NTA were needed because the companies unfortunately were incapable of working alongside each other or keeping up with the times in their service and developing it in line with the peoples and the cities need or providing a good standard of service.



I don't think anyone disputes that the current fare and door system is working to a degree which anyone can be happy with.

However this fare system is something that Dublin Bus retained for many years even when it was obvious that the stage system needed replacing and should have ideally been done in the boom years, but lackadaisical Dublin Bus just ploughed on, whilst their downtown office headed by various ministers who made no attempt to improve things and only now are we seeing the NTA improve the fare system, but cannot do it all at once since the company just cannot take the hit that it may cause.



None of the AV's what went to the UK are operating in anything like the kind of duties or work cycles that they would be doing in Dublin Bus. None of them have gone to the big, all day operators and most have gone to smaller companies where they only see service for a few hours a day or 9-5 at the very most.

The VT's are actually almost a white elephant to a large degree, because the dwell time on them is even worse than it is on any other bus. No more should be ordered until they can be spec'd with dual doors and the fare system allows it and that is before you take into account they will be worth virtually nothing on the second hand market.

DB applied for a simplified fare structure years ago, before the NTA, or leap or any of that and the DOT said no, so yet again blaming DB for stuff that is/was out of their control.

And just buying buses with 2, 3 or any multiple number of doors doesn't magically make the bus stops up to scratch nor does it magically stop people parking in bus stops, the NTA are paying lip service to dual door use but actually doing sweet FA in making it happen, they choose what routes the buses operate on but haven't made one alteration to one bus stop they haven't even developed bus stop design regulations. Seriously these people are the great hope for public transport ???????

dfx-

lxflyer wrote: »

The 84x is interworked with the 145 and the 69x is interworked with the 69 - in other words the buses are on the second route most of the time and then do single journeys on the Xpresso service.

I've been told by a very good source 84Xs are often just pullouts from the garage - whatever is left in the evening - and so anything can show up on them. I've certainly got old AVs, EVs, VTs regularly on them.

One of the early evening 68As (1600 I think) is a 69X, certainly operated by the same bus. 68/69 are interworked. If it's the Xpresso interworking...perhaps it shouldn't be a GT so. The last 68As in the evening are usually old AVs which go back to the garage, swap it around.

A GT would be ideal for a 68A.

cdebru

VG31 wrote: »

How are the middle doors any different to the front doors? I often see the front doors opened far off the kerb.

How many times does this have to be explained ? Can we make a sticky with the answer ?

The front door being close to the wheels is easier to maneuver close to the footpath to get the center doors that close you need a run in and then space to straighten off, a lot of stops don't have that run in space, when you can't get close the front doors are easier for the driver to control so that people don't step off into the path of a cyclist, motorcycle, or car, van truck that is moving on the inside of the bus.
There are stops that are generally suitable for dual door use, but they tend to be not where you really need them ( ie very few people use those stops). Even if you do use the dual doors at the stops where you can because it is so erratic literally no one uses them so a driver is wasting his time, and believe it or no it is actually slower to use both doors when no one is using them.
Now before you come back and say the driver should make them use the center door to exit, it is extremely difficult to give out to someone for not using the centre door then pull up to the next stop with people waiting to exit from the centre door and the driver can't safely open it.
That's why if and that's a big IF the NTA are really serious about center door use they need to ensure that the stops are suitable by auditing each stop to see which in the normal course could or could not be used safely then address the ones that can't, then sort out the massive amount of illegal parking then we could get somewhere.

VG31

cdebru,

Fair enough but a lot of the time I find drivers don't bring the front door near the kerb either even though they could if they wanted. So not all drivers must be that safety conscious. I've seen drivers numerous times open the centre doors in the middle of the road away from the kerb.

Drivers in the rest of Europe don't seem to care if they can't get the centre door close to the kerb.

end of the road

VG31 wrote: »

cdebru,

Fair enough but a lot of the time I find drivers don't bring the front door near the kerb either even though they could if they wanted. So not all drivers must be that safety conscious. I've seen drivers numerous times open the centre doors in the middle of the road away from the kerb.

Drivers in the rest of Europe don't seem to care if they can't get the centre door close to the kerb.

just because drivers in eastern europe apparently don't care doesn't mean drivers here shouldn't

VG31

end of the road wrote: »

just because drivers in eastern europe apparently don't care doesn't mean drivers here shouldn't

I didn't say only Eastern Europe. I know the bus stops are better in London and Germany but if the driver can't fit into a stop properly there due to parked cars or whatever, they still open the centre doors.

end of the road

VG31 wrote: »

I didn't say only Eastern Europe. I know the bus stops are better in London and Germany but if the driver can't fit into a stop properly there due to parked cars or whatever, they still open the centre doors.

thats up to them. we should not do the same here. the stops should be audited to ensure they are fully safe for multiple door operation. parked cars should not be allowed in a bus stop

cdebru

VG31 wrote: »

cdebru,

Fair enough but a lot of the time I find drivers don't bring the front door near the kerb either even though they could if they wanted. So not all drivers must be that safety conscious. I've seen drivers numerous times open the centre doors in the middle of the road away from the kerb.

Drivers in the rest of Europe don't seem to care if they can't get the centre door close to the kerb.

It depends on the street and the circumstances and the road markings as to what, or where you should stop if the stop is inacessible.
As for you seen this or that, I have seen loads of people doing all kinds of things in various occupations including a guy who was an electrician cutting a live wire with a pliers, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else as a sensible or safe thing to do.

As for the rest of Europe we don't live in the rest of Europe , and they do not have our court system or compensation culture, I doubt very much you could find another country in Europe that would award someone €9.5 million when they ran out in front of a bus that was 20% below the maximum speed limit for that road. So apples and oranges and all that.

cdebru

VG31 wrote: »

I didn't say only Eastern Europe. I know the bus stops are better in London and Germany but if the driver can't fit into a stop properly there due to parked cars or whatever, they still open the centre doors.

How much do you think you would get in court if you brought a claim because a bicycle or motorbike hit you while exiting ? Or would they just laugh at you for thinking you should be compensated?

ITV2

VG31 wrote: »

if the driver can't fit into a stop properly there due to parked cars or whatever, they still open the centre doors.

I certainly don't !

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

thats up to them. we should not do the same here. the stops should be audited to ensure they are fully safe for multiple door operation. parked cars should not be allowed in a bus stop

So I suppose that you are also going to demand that Connolly Platform 5 be closed?

Since on Platform 5 heaading south right at the front of the train, there is a far bigger gap and any drop than there will be from any centre door on a bus.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

So I suppose that you are also going to demand that Tara Street Platform 5 be closed?

Since on Platform 5 heaading south right at the front of the train, there is a far bigger gap and any drop than there will be from any centre door on a bus.

tara street has 2 platforms. the NTA clearly agree with dublin bus in relation to use of centre doors hence it isn't wide spread. comparing a train to a bus is ridiculous. why would one be in front of the train anyway, your supposed to stand behind the yellow line

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

tara street has 2 platforms. the NTA clearly agree with dublin bus in relation to use of centre doors hence it isn't wide spread. comparing a train to a bus is ridiculous. why would one be in front of the train anyway, your supposed to stand behind the yellow line

I mean Connolly and the gap between the train and the platform.

Mahogany

cdebru wrote: »

Yeah in response to you complaining about drivers insisting passengers pay their correct fare, if you had your way everyone would pay what they felt like and presumably the magic money tree would pay the actual cost of providing the service.
Providing the best service also means trying to ensure that everyone pays what they are supposed to otherwise those willing to pay end up paying more to cover the cost for those unwilling to pay.

People have issues paying the correct fare because the fares are so high!

end of the road

Mahogany wrote: »

People have issues paying the correct fare because the fares are so high!

get a leap card

cdebru

Mahogany wrote: »

People have issues paying the correct fare because the fares are so high!

The fares are so high because people don't pay their fair share, it doesn't matter what rate the fares are people will try to avoid paying them that just pushes up the fares for the decent honest customers who pay their way.

magentis

steddyeddy wrote: »

I live in near Donnybrook and I go into Dublin (around 15 mins by bus) once a week. I'm sometimes waiting up to half an hour for a bus that charges me 2.80 for the pleasure of a 15 minute journey. Now I know people will say Leap card is cheaper blah blah but still the fact remains is that Dublin Bus offers and appalling service. I live on the main road into the country's capital and it's a struggle getting in and out of town for a return journey costing me over 5 euro!!

We also subsidise Dublin bus in taxes. We're paying too much for a rubbish service.


Edit: I also forgot some of the rudest bus drivers going who act like they're doing you a favour instead of providing a service.

Fair play.
If the current government get their way,you might have no service at all.
Its at the point where all they are short is to invite the big players in and ask them which routes they would like.

woodrow wyatt

With the route tendering what would happen if no one applied for these routes including Dublin Bus, would the government force Dublin Bus to operate the routes even if they did not want to?

devnull

magentis wrote: »

Fair play.
If the current government get their way,you might have no service at all.
Its at the point where all they are short is to invite the big players in and ask them which routes they would like.

No it's not like that at all, since the operators will have no control over the service level or the timetable.

magentis

devnull wrote: »

No it's not like that at all, since the operators will have no control over the service level or the timetable.

Have you seen what has happened in the uk?
With the rail and the bus services?

Of course its like that.

Multinational operators came in and cherry picked the routes that were profitable.Often taking bundles of routes with profitable and loss making routes,they operate the loss making routes for a while then discontinue them.The uk government didnt stop them,are you telling me this government of ours will?
All in all a nice easy way out for enda,and his cronies,shure he can give the cash saved to his pals in the form of some makey up advisor role.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

I mean Connolly and the gap between the train and the platform.

Again apples and oranges IE could hardly accuse a train driver of not pulling in close enough, nor is a motorbike or cyclist likely to come up the gap between train and platform.

devnull

magentis wrote: »

Have you seen what has happened in the uk?
With the rail and the bus services?

Multinational operators came in and cherry picked the routes that were profitable.Often taking bundles of routes with profitable and loss making routes,they operate the loss making routes for a while then discontinue them.The uk government didnt stop them,are you telling me this government of ours will?

What happened in the UK on the bus service outside London was de-regulation where it became a free for all and operators could do pretty much what they like as you say. For most of the UK this has not been a positive development in regards to bus services however some urban areas have seen better services, but I agree that rural areas and those in villages etc have seen worse services.

That is not being proposed for this country. What is being proposed is that the regulator will specify the timetables, fares and similar aspects. The operator will have no control over this and will have to do what they are told, and will be the operator, and nothing more. The idea behind tendering is to ensure that no operator, be they public or private, can use their position against the greater good.

Therefore none of the situations you talk about can happen.

cdebru wrote: »

Again apples and oranges IE could hardly accuse a train driver of not pulling in close enough, nor is a motorbike or cyclist likely to come up the gap between train and platform.

Of course, since it is completely outside the control of an IE driver, but the fact is, there still is a rather large gap, that nobody can do anything about that passengers must overcome on some doors, on some platforms of some Irish Rail trains. However in this situation all the doors open, despite the fact that some would be more dangerous than others.

I notice you do not use the word safety anywhere in your reply, despite the fact this is said to be the primary concern. The fact is that safety, not just in Ireland, is often used as a smokescreen for the real issues. That the drivers do not want to get held responsible for any possible accidents. If there is a situation where they would not be held liable, it seems they would be more open to use the middle doors, that they claimed were unsafe.

If safety was so important, then surely staff would be worried about the safety of passengers, regardless of whether they could be held liable or not?

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

What happened in the UK on the bus service outside London was de-regulation where it became a free for all and operators could do pretty much what they like as you say. For most of the UK this has not been a positive development in regards to bus services however some urban areas have seen better services, but I agree that rural areas and those in villages etc have seen worse services.

That is not being proposed for this country. What is being proposed is that the regulator will specify the timetables, fares and similar aspects. The operator will have no control over this and will have to do what they are told, and will be the operator, and nothing more. The idea behind tendering is to ensure that no operator, be they public or private, can use their position against the greater good.

Therefore none of the situations you talk about can happen.



Of course, since it is completely outside the control of an IE driver, but the fact is, there still is a rather large gap, that nobody can do anything about that passengers must overcome on some doors, on some platforms of some Irish Rail trains. However in this situation all the doors open, despite the fact that some would be more dangerous than others.

I notice you do not use the word safety anywhere in your reply, despite the fact this is said to be the primary concern. The fact is that safety, not just in Ireland, is often used as a smokescreen for the real issues. That the drivers do not want to get held responsible for any possible accidents. If there is a situation where they would not be held liable, it seems they would be more open to use the middle doors, that they claimed were unsafe.

If safety was so important, then surely staff would be worried about the safety of passengers, regardless of whether they could be held liable or not?

Of course it is about being held responsible, in the IE case it is impossible to hold staff responsible as the gap between train and platform is completely outside of the employees control. That is not the case in DB, management put the responsibility on drivers. I'll give you a recent example a driver approached a stop it was inacessible, so he pulled up to the footpath after the stop allowed passengers to alight directly on to the footpath, having left the bus one passenger tripped on the footpath, not getting off the bus but on the footpath on few feet from the bus a manager found the driver responsible for the incident on the basis that it was up to the driver to find a safe place if the stop wasn't accessible and since this person had fallen this clearly wasn't a safe place as such the driver had broken the rules. That's the kind of nonsense you are dealing with. It was thrown out on appeal but who needs that stress?

strandroad

cdebru wrote: »

Of course it is about being held responsible, in the IE case it is impossible to hold staff responsible as the gap between train and platform is completely outside of the employees control. That is not the case in DB, management put the responsibility on drivers. I'll give you a recent example a driver approached a stop it was inacessible, so he pulled up to the footpath after the stop allowed passengers to alight directly on to the footpath, having left the bus one passenger tripped on the footpath, not getting off the bus but on the footpath on few feet from the bus a manager found the driver responsible for the incident on the basis that it was up to the driver to find a safe place if the stop wasn't accessible and since this person had fallen this clearly wasn't a safe place as such the driver had broken the rules. That's the kind of nonsense you are dealing with. It was thrown out on appeal but who needs that stress?

Wondering if such nonsense would still be in place if the route was tendered out to someone else than DB.

Dyr

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Got on the 15 to town today. Went upstairs and sat down amidst about 12 Italian students. In Rathgar they all stood up and proceeded to stand the whole way down the stairs, with about 3 left on the top deck. And the bus stops, but they don't get off. And again. And the whole stairs is blocked. Next I hear a voice going "if you're not getting off then sit back down because no one else can get on or off. There are people out there in the rain who want to get on this bus".

So all 12 traipse back upstairs. Only they don't all sit down. And the next minutes the bus driver on on the tannoy going "you can't stand upstairs on the bus. I appreciate there is a language barrier but you need to either sit down or come downstairs". So the man beside me asks where they were going. Portobello, it turns out. They are were standing up in Rathgar to get off the bus in Portobello! On a rainy morning that is a 20 minute journey!

So we eventually reach Portobello and the bus driver is back on going "On behalf of Dublin Bus I would like to welcome our new Italian visitors to Dublin. We hope you enjoy yourselves as you learn to get around our city". And everybody smiled.

Anyway I thought it was quite well handled considering what a pain they were being!!

Actually this highlights a problem which dublin bus, by and large, are not wholly to blame for. Large groups who think public transport is private hire. I personally think they shouldn't be entertained but I'm probably in the minority on that

strandroad

Bambi wrote: »

Actually this highlights a problem which dublin bus, by and large, are not wholly to blame for. Large groups who think public transport is private hire. I personally think they shouldn't be entertained but I'm probably in the minority on that

Or... their problem would never arise if a a route display was ticking off named stops as you pass them... as they do it in that mythical land of continental Europe.

NCD

[I no longer have any problems with Dublin Bus from Lusk as I now use the Private coach from Lusk at 7.30 every morning on which I am guaranteed a seat and can commute in comfort, It is really great to see some competition I hope this private service continues as they treat people as valued customers rather than as Cattle.

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Actually this highlights a problem which dublin bus, by and large, are not wholly to blame for. Large groups who think public transport is private hire. I personally think they shouldn't be entertained but I'm probably in the minority on that

Actually the big groups of foreign students seem to be relatively little trouble. They normally use a flat fare leap card, so they board the bus very quickly, far quicker then your average Irish passenger.

I remember the first time I saw this I was on a bus and I noticed about 20 Spanish students at the upcoming bus stop and I groaned thinking it would take all day for them to board. But I was very pleasantly surprised as I watched them all board in less then 30 seconds as they all used Leap card quickly against the right hand validator.

In fact it was the three, seemingly, Irish passengers who were paying by cash or leap with driver interaction who took almost twice as long to board as the 20 students!

Which just goes to show the benefits Dublin Bus could gain in reduced dwell times and reduced journey times by moving to flat fare.

As for the students in this example standing on the stairs too early, I wonder did this bus have the next bus stop notification screens? Most DB buses don't and even the ones that do, have a pretty poor implementation of it.

It is another example of DB operating to what Dublin required 30 years ago rather then what it needs today!

30 years ago, most people who took DB were Dubliners and most of them took the same journey every day, so no need for screens. The odd tourist could simply ask the friendly driver to give them a shout when they should get off.

But modern Dublin is radically different, we now have very large numbers of tourists and massive influx of foreigners working and studying here. These people now make up a very large percentage of Dublin Bus users and they simply don't know the network, which leads to difficulties like this.

This is why you have to have screens on the bus, to help people like this to know when to get off.

Unfortunately these screens are only on a very small percentage of DB's fleet. Also NTA/DB's implementation of these screens is very poor. The screens only show the next upcoming stop and it only shows it for a very brief period as it needs to also show the name in Irish, which of course almost no one, including most Irish people actually understand!

With DB's bus stops being so close together, this leads to a situation where you only see the name of the stop when you are almost on top of it, have to then rush down the stairs, squeeze by the people standing downstairs and out the single door and maybe even miss your stop. Because of this, you get this problem where people stand up too early, wait for their stop, but then block other people boarding on a stop before it.

This is why you have to carefully think about how you design and layout a bus, so that you encourage people to use it properly and as efficiently as possible. Unfortunately DB has proven itself completely incompetent at doing this, with little thought going into their bus design beyond sticking as many seats as possible in it and as slowly as possible squeezing as many people as possible through a single door and stairs!

Ideally all DB buses should have next stop screens and ideally they should be like the ones on buses in Amsterdam. The next stop screens in Amsterdam are actually full LCD screens, that show the next 4 stops. They supply you with far more info then Dublin Buses poor screens and allow you to prepare better for the next upcoming stop. By also showing the next four stops, they also give you more time to switch between English and Irish.

Beyond that, it would be great if we saw DB move to 3 door, dual stairs buses like the new London Bus or double decker buses in Berlin.

The idea being to maximise passenger flow and efficiency. You board via the front door, straight up the front stairs, sit upstairs, and then exit via the rear stairs and straight out the rear door. A very efficient passenger flow that stops embarking and disembarking passengers from mixing and blocking each other.

bk

Here are some images of these awesome Berlin, triple door, dual stairs buses I'm talking about:

Note how the front stairs is directly behind the driver and naturally leads and encourages you to go up the front stairs, after you have stepped in the front door and paid your fare.

The rear stairs leads directly down and out the rear door, so again people are encouraged to exit via the rear door.



Also note that the center door is specifically marked for wheelchair and buggy users. This door leads directly to a large wheelchair/buggy/standing area. This is vastly easier to access then DB's design and thus reduces the delay that such users might cause.



View of upstairs, where you can see both the front and rear stairs.



If only we could have such awesome buses here. In-conjunction with flat fare zero driver interaction, we would see massive reductions in journey times with such buses.

end of the road

mhge wrote: »

Wondering if such nonsense would still be in place if the route was tendered out to someone else than DB.

why wouldn't it be. you think tendering is going to stop idiot managers from making idiot decisians in terms of staff? your deluded if you do. the NTA won't have control over that

end of the road

NCD wrote: »

[I no longer have any problems with Dublin Bus from Lusk as I now use the Private coach from Lusk at 7.30 every morning on which I am guaranteed a seat and can commute in comfort, It is really great to see some competition I hope this private service continues as they treat people as valued customers rather than as Cattle.

a coach service is way different to a city bus service. coaches aren't designed for standing therefore you won't have huge crowds of people.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

Which just goes to show the benefits Dublin Bus could gain in reduced dwell times and reduced journey times by moving to flat fare.

its not their decisian. never was, never will be.

bk wrote: »

As for the students in this example standing on the stairs too early, I wonder did this bus have the next bus stop notification screens? Most DB buses don't and even the ones that do, have a pretty poor implementation of it.

maybe they didn't speak or understand english? just a thought.

bk wrote: »

It is another example of DB operating to what Dublin required 30 years ago rather then what it needs today!

yeah. dublin bus is a far cry from 30 years ago.

bk wrote: »

30 years ago, most people who took DB were Dubliners and most of them took the same journey every day, so no need for screens. The odd tourist could simply ask the friendly driver to give them a shout when they should get off.

still mostly the same

bk wrote: »

But modern Dublin is radically different, we now have very large numbers of tourists and massive influx of foreigners working and studying here. These people now make up a very large percentage of Dublin Bus users and they simply don't know the network, which leads to difficulties like this.

and they mostly use certain routes

bk wrote: »

Unfortunately DB has proven itself completely incompetent at doing this, with little thought going into their bus design beyond sticking as many seats as possible in it and as slowly as possible squeezing as many people as possible through a single door and stairs!

dublin bus, or the NTA and earlier the department of transport? multi-door busses are here and more will come. however clearly there is an issue as to their use and the NTA seem to slightly recognize it hence there is no great force against dublin bus to use the second door yet.

bk wrote: »

Beyond that, it would be great if we saw DB move to 3 door, dual stairs buses like the new London Bus or double decker buses in Berlin.

and what routes would support tripple doors bar the airport?

cdebru

bk wrote: »

Here are some images of these awesome Berlin, triple door, dual stairs buses I'm talking about:

Note how the front stairs is directly behind the driver and naturally leads and encourages you to go up the front stairs, after you have stepped in the front door and paid your fare.

The rear stairs leads directly down and out the rear door, so again people are encouraged to exit via the rear door.



Also note that the center door is specifically marked for wheelchair and buggy users. This door leads directly to a large wheelchair/buggy/standing area. This is vastly easier to access then DB's design and thus reduces the delay that such users might cause.



View of upstairs, where you can see both the front and rear stairs.



If only we could have such awesome buses here. In-conjunction with flat fare zero driver interaction, we would see massive reductions in journey times with such buses.

That's the kind of bus they should use for BRT rather than bendi buses and spending millions on resurfacing the road to get a super flat surface to support bendi buses.

It would be pointless buying these for normal routes unless the stop infrastructure was their to support them and the NTA history is piss poor in that regard.

Geuze

mhge wrote: »

Or... their problem would never arise if a a route display was ticking off named stops as you pass them... as they do it in that mythical land of continental Europe.

YES.

Every bus stop should have timetables and map with EVERY subsequent stop on every route named.

And on board every vehicle there should be a screen showing name of next stop.

strandroad

Geuze wrote: »

YES.

Every bus stop should have timetables and map with EVERY subsequent stop on every route named.

And on board every vehicle there should be a screen showing name of next stop.

Some buses do have displays, but they are only showing what your next stop is.
Elsewhere displays often show a string of stops with names, and fade them as the bus passes them. You can easily see a dozen stops in advance.
The former would not solve the Italian students scenario (they still wouldn't know if they need to prepare to alight or not), but the latter would...

punisher5112

The Irish roads are not designed or big enough to take buses such as the tri axle.
The bendy bus was a disaster and don't see the new types been any better.

Bus stops are impossible to get into as for parking of taxi, vans, cars, trucks and other buses/coaches.

Having bus stops which curve in as what we have hear are dangerous and extremely difficult to actually get the bus in line with the curb especially a problem if it is dual door bus.

Not everything is db's fault as I said before customer/passenger education of how to actually get about safley and give a little respect to others around them is something that should be taught.
It's quite simple if you are in a vehicle that will move is moving that you actually hold on when standing but a lot seem to think that they will be ok not holding on and next minute they are falling about the place or hitting into others or banging off handrails.


Recently I have found more then ever stepping off the bus and crossing the road right in front of the bus and not even looking which is absolutely idiotic.

1 route at a time should be looked at and stops should be looked at how they can be improved.

The buses which have been bought GT/SG do not work with the raised castle style curbing stops as the fronts are lower and hit these curbs hard and do scare drive and pedestrians around the bus with the loud bang and grinding sound.

I find the GT front dipped beam lights are way too low on the bus and are not great for illuminating the road in front.

Interior panels are quite squeeky and also ceiling panels are easily damaged which have come across plenty with fist holes.

The stairs are positioned so badly nobody goes to the centre doors unless they see the person in front go that way and also the stair case is way too narrow and I find people to be slower to get down then ever in my experience of using them.

The wipers are to small on driver side and could clear more of the windscreen to give a better vision.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

maybe they didn't speak or understand english? just a thought.

Yes, exactly, which is why every single bus should have next stop displays and why those next stop displays should be large LCD screens that show the next few upcoming stops.

So non native speakers can match the names on the screen to the address they have written down.

I know ever bus now has next stop audio announcements, but that is really only useful to strong English speakers, specially on a noisy bus. If you have travelled on public transport in other foreign countries, you will know it is very hard to match what you think the stop name is versus how it is actually pronounced in Polish, German, etc. That is why next stop screens are so important and why better ones that show the next few stops to give you time to check are so necessary. The DB screens, with a single scrolling line that quickly flicks between English and Irish can be difficult to read even for native English speakers. It is a bad implementation.

end of the road wrote: »

and what routes would support tripple doors bar the airport?

Every single route.

And why not? Every city bus in Krakow, Warsaw and Gdansk has at least three doors, even their single deck buses do (similar size to the old DB single deckers on the 123 route). Their bendi buses have four doors. And it all leads to incredibly quick dwell times and vastly faster journey times then Dublin Bus.

The Berlin bus that I showed earlier, is a large, high capacity, tri-axle, so obviously it wouldn't be used on every route, instead it would replace the DB VT class tri-axles on othe routes they are currently suited too like the 46A.

However every other route could use a small version of this bus, also with three doors and two stairs, like the new routemaster in London, which is about the same size as DB's standard dual axle buses.

cdebru wrote: »

That's the kind of bus they should use for BRT rather than bendi buses and spending millions on resurfacing the road to get a super flat surface to support bendi buses.

Well if they can get the road and stop infrastructure right, then 4 door bendi buses that operate like the Luas (off bus ticketing and enter and leave via any door) will have greater capacity and faster dwell times due to the lack of stairs.

Also better accessibility for elderly, disabled, etc.

But I do think buses like this should be used on other DB routes.

cdebru wrote: »

It would be pointless buying these for normal routes unless the stop infrastructure was their to support them and the NTA history is piss poor in that regard.

You mean DB has a piss poor history of bus stop design. Almost every single bus stop in Dublin was built by Dublin Bus, long before the NTA came into existence!