Winter tires or normal?

Biglad

I know most test are often commercially tinted but this one is quite interesting for the RWD fanatics on here and it was done on a sheet of ice...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

YbFocus

Biglad wrote: »

I know most test are often commercially tinted but this one is quite interesting for the RWD fanatics on here and it was done on a sheet of ice...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

I'll definitely give it a watch when finished work bl, don't be getting so annoyed we can all voice opinions here

Biglad

Anjobe wrote: »

Every driver needs to be aware of the road conditions. On a slippery road surface you need to drive in such a way as minimise your risk of stopping suddenly. This is quite easy - you just brake earlier and more gently than normal, using engine braking as much as possible. Doing anything else is a driver error. I was also out and about on icy roads over the weekend - driving the untreated back roads certainly took a bit of care but neither I nor other drivers were having any difficulty with that.

I do understand the benefits of winter tyres, but as I have always been able to get around safely and without any difficulty without them, the benefit simply does not justify the cost.

Hey if that works for you than so be it. At least you understand the benefits of winter tyres which is a big thing. It seems that a lot of people simply do not know the basic differences between summer and winter tyres which fuels silly arguments and statements.

Take care over the next couple of days if your are out and about! There's snow on the way :-)

Biglad

YbFocus wrote: »

I want proper mathematical outcomes not some lad sprouting an opinion.
A measure of g's being developed in any direction will show how much more effort those tyres can put to the ground.
That is a simple undeniable proof.

If there was a big difference it may even make me join your brigade!

Just view a hand full of the independent clips on youtube varying from driving on wet roads to snow and ice...

If you see one vehicle making it around a corner or being able to stop in halve the distance compared the the other do you still require the G-force data?

Biglad

YbFocus wrote: »

I'll definitely give it a watch when finished work bl, don't be getting so annoyed we can all voice opinions here

I haven't gotten annoyed yet, watch those clips and let me know what you think :-)

YbFocus

Biglad wrote: »

Just view a hand full of the independent clips on youtube varying from driving on wet roads to snow and ice...

If you see one vehicle making it around a corner or being able to stop in halve the distance compared the the other do you still require the G-force data?

God no obviously not, i just seen bits on YouTube before with lads spouting on.
I'll go looking tonight and look at the one you linked.
I still don't think It'd make the price worth it though as I've never ever had trouble anywhere.

I know many that do but when i drive their cars i find them fine. I think much of it is how they approach driving in bad conditions!

Biglad

YbFocus wrote: »

God no obviously not, i just seen bits on YouTube before with lads spouting on.
I'll go looking tonight and look at the one you linked.
I still don't think It'd make the price worth it though as I've never ever had trouble anywhere.

I know many that do but when i drive their cars i find them fine. I think much of it is how they approach driving in bad conditions!

I agree with knowing how to drive in wintry conditions is half the battle. But too often you are depending on other road users as they can push you in a situation you don't want to be in because of their actions.

HGV's often spin out on inclines as they cant keep up the momentum because of a slow driver in front of them etc.

A lot of road users are being 'extra cautious' and sometimes 'over cautious' and are crawling along which doesn't always help either.

I've been driving as part of me being in sales for over 25 years. Most of it in Holland, Germany, Ireland and Scotland. This doesn't necessarily make me a good driver but I'd like to say I've got some experience, including a lot of winter driving.

I came through the first snow of the year in my A6 with summer tyres as I had just sold my A4 with the winter tyres still on them. And although I managed, that was it, I managed. Still I was happy to collect the A6 last Saturday with 4 winter tyres fitted and the difference was instantly noticeable.

Tea 1000

YbFocus wrote: »

I see what you mean, but only yesterday in the snow i practiced this.
I rolled it back about 2 foot into the verge onto non compacted snow and took off very gently.
Off we went again.
There really isn't a spot you can get out of on winter's that you can't on standards.

If your on sheet ice no tyre without spikes will make any difference.
The friction of Ice is far too low to allow a car to put that much force to the ground.

Completely disagree with this.
I think this was posted before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
People on here keep saying things like "you can't change the laws of physics" when defending summer tyres. Well, winter tyres are better in cold conditions BECAUSE of physics!!
I'd say your 2.5 RWD coupe without TC is possibly an E36 is it ybFocus? I'm thinking you fare better than most BMW drivers in snow beacuse unlike modern stuff, your car isn't "over-tyred" for want of a better phrase. E90's with 17" wheels have 255 tyres on the rear. Those things have no bite in snow. Spreading the weight over an already low friction area is no help.
That's part of the reason why more modern cars would benefit even more with winters over summers.
But there is a big advantage, whether people want to justify the layout or not. Currently I don't have a set, but at some stage I'll probably invest in a spare set of wheels and shoe them with winters. The advantage is that you save wear on the summers when the winter set are on, so the net cost over a number of years isn't as great as people think. But it is a big outlay up front, so it's understandable why many resist.
I also have a garage to store them, so that's a plus for me too. Although you could buy one of those cheap plastic "sheds" and put it at the corner of a garden and put a set of wheels in there if you were stuck for space!

Zubeneschamali

YbFocus wrote: »

I still don't think It'd make the price worth it though as I've never ever had trouble anywhere.

You could make the same argument for buying the cheapest crap in a summer tyre: just adjust your driving to compensate for the reduced grip, slower cornering and longer braking distances, no need to buy expensive branded tyres with more grip and better performance in wet conditions.

But for some reason, nobody ever does make that argument here.

YbFocus

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Completely disagree with this.
I think this was posted before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
People on here keep saying things like "you can't change the laws of physics" when defending summer tyres. Well, winter tyres are better in cold conditions BECAUSE of physics!!
I'd say your 2.5 RWD coupe without TC is possibly an E36 is it ybFocus? I'm thinking you fare better than most BMW drivers in snow beacuse unlike modern stuff, your car isn't "over-tyred" for want of a better phrase. E90's with 17" wheels have 255 tyres on the rear. Those things have no bite in snow. Spreading the weight over an already low friction area is no help.
That's part of the reason why more modern cars would benefit even more with winters over summers.
But there is a big advantage, whether people want to justify the layout or not. Currently I don't have a set, but at some stage I'll probably invest in a spare set of wheels and shoe them with winters. The advantage is that you save wear on the summers when the winter set are on, so the net cost over a number of years isn't as great as people think. But it is a big outlay up front, so it's understandable why many resist.
I also have a garage to store them, so that's a plus for me too. Although you could buy one of those cheap plastic "sheds" and put it at the corner of a garden and put a set of wheels in there if you were stuck for space!

Your fairly bang on
Yeah an E36 2.5!
195 section.

I would have thought the larger cross section would spread the weight and give some bit more drive though.

BigEejit

Contrary to popular belief, narrow tyres are better on snow. I remember seeing a nasty old Citroen 2CV sailing up the road a couple of years ago when we had bad snow...... i was watching various cars make it halfway up and start slowly sliding back and to the side and hopping off the kerb.

Anjobe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You could make the same argument for buying the cheapest crap in a summer tyre: just adjust your driving to compensate for the reduced grip, slower cornering and longer braking distances, no need to buy expensive branded tyres with more grip and better performance in wet conditions.

But for some reason, nobody ever does make that argument here.

The argument isn't quite the same. I suspect most people (who put any thought into it) choose a mid-range or premium tyre over a budget tyre because they are quieter, more comfortable, lower rolling resistance etc but probably mostly because better grip makes them feel that their car is nicer to drive and handles better. Saving a few quid on a budget tyre means compromising on the better handling etc every single time they get in the car, but not using winter tyres means compromising on that on just a few occasions each year.

stimpson

BigEejit wrote: »

Contrary to popular belief, narrow tyres are better on snow. I remember seeing a nasty old Citroen 2CV sailing up the road a couple of years ago when we had bad snow...... i was watching various cars make it halfway up and start slowly sliding back and to the side and hopping off the kerb.

Narrower section tyres put more pressure on the snow, compacting it more and therefore providing more grip.

micks_address

Anjobe wrote: »

The argument isn't quite the same. I suspect most people (who put any thought into it) choose a mid-range or premium tyre over a budget tyre because they are quieter, more comfortable, lower rolling resistance etc but probably mostly because better grip makes them feel that their car is nicer to drive and handles better. Saving a few quid on a budget tyre means compromising on the better handling etc every single time they get in the car, but not using winter tyres means compromising on that on just a few occasions each year.

Agree with this mostly apart from the last sentence...

Average temps in dublin..



You can see from October to March even into april average temps are below 11 degrees celsius

Source

http://www.worldweatheronline.com/Dublin-weather-averages/Dublin/IE.aspx

I reference 11 degrees as this test was done at 11 degrees on a wet track (posted earlier in thread)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oi-o_njQW34

The would to me prove that winter tyres dont become 'dangerous' above 7 degrees and still show some benefits especially driving in wet weather

Cheers,
Mick

Tea 1000

YbFocus wrote: »

Your fairly bang on
Yeah an E36 2.5!
195 section.

I would have thought the larger cross section would spread the weight and give some bit more drive though.

Spreading weight is a good thing on boggy ground where you're likely to sink, but on low traction surfaces it's worse. I remember having a summer job where plenty of artics were in and out with loads, and one fairly steep hill with gravel on it was always catching out any trucks with twin axels rather than the single ones, which had no bother.
Tyres are too wide now really. I was admiring an early 90's Porsche 911 recently which had narrower tyres than many modern boring diesel saloons!

Biglad

An added bonus to me is the fact that the winter tyres iron out the smallest little bumps etc caused by poor roadsurfaces etc especially up here in the North West :-) makes my A6 even more comfy

CiniO

YbFocus wrote: »

That there mycroft is exactly the reason i don't bother with them

I'd love to see just how much more grip they give.
Like a proper experiment measuring g's in cornering and braking.
Just to see if they create a noticeable difference.

Until then I'll drive the only bmw that doesn't get stuck at all going by here.
She's like a MOAG

I would love to see such experiment as well.
But my experience seem to show, that their real advantage can be seen only on snow and slush. In that conditions they make tremendous difference - as I pointed out before. On road covered with snow few days ago, I was able to drive about 30km/h with my car on summer tyres, and in the other car, keeping about the same level of safety, I could do 80km/h. IMO that's a major difference.

On ice difference would be much smaller, and on dry and wet road at low temperatures (above 0) I'd tend to believe, summer tyres are better, in contrast to what tyre industry marketing campain tells us that below 7 degrees winters are better.

Even further, at high temps like 15 degrees and above, I think winter tyres become really dangerously slippery.

That's my observations, and I would really love to see some tests with accelerometer as you said to see it they would confirm my observations.

CiniO

Biglad wrote: »

I sorry but I just can't conclude anything else but you having a set of very poor winter tyres.

I have Debica Frigo HP at the moment.
Fairly good tyres, but indeed they are known for being better in snow and ice, and not as good on wet.

But over last 16 years, I've used at least 10 different sets of different winter tyres of different class, from midrange to premium brands, and I really know what I'm saying.

To state that your summers were better at 3c goes in against very research and testing ever done on winter tyres as well as my experience.

The problem with that is that this testing and research is done by tyre industry which has business in selling as many tyres as they can.
I would love to see some independent tests like YbFocus proposed with accelerometer.

Biglad

CiniO wrote: »

I have Debica Frigo HP at the moment.
Fairly good tyres, but indeed they are known for being better in snow and ice, and not as good on wet.

But over last 16 years, I've used at least 10 different sets of different winter tyres of different class, from midrange to premium brands, and I really know what I'm saying.



The problem with that is that this testing and research is done by tyre industry which has business in selling as many tyres as they can.
I would love to see some independent tests like YbFocus proposed with accelerometer.

There are loads of videos on the web where winter tyres are tested by independent institutes, universities etc on wet roads, snow and ice. I've even posted up a video earlier today which shows three identical vehicles taking of on a sheet of ice showing the differences. Why on earth would you still want to see an accellerometer test? If your summer tyres perform as well as your winter tyres at 3c you have a bad set of winter tyres, simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

Stating that summer tyres are better in wet road conditions in temperatures just above 0 is rather weird if you understand the typical differences between summer and winter tyres, and for somebody with so much experience (your words) its a really strange statement.
Summer tyres are about having as much rubber in contact with the tarmac whilst winter tyres allow for wider grooves etc to allow for snow to get in there to be able to help them 'stick' to the snow you are driving on or to help dispense of surface water in wet conditions etc...

The tyres you have do actually get a very bad review for traction on wet roads...why did you buy them?

CiniO

Biglad wrote: »

There are loads of videos on the web where winter tyres are tested by independent institutes, universities etc on wet roads, snow and ice. I've even posted up a video earlier today which shows three identical vehicles taking of on a sheet of ice showing the differences. Why on earth would you still want to see an accellerometer test?

Because I don't believe in most of those test.
They are about the same worth as f.e. such advert.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrMD_z_FnNk
Dirt just disappearing instantly - miracle.

I would like to see the test, because I believe that most stuff you see on youtube and TV is just sponsored by tyre industry.

If your summer tyres perform as well as your winter tyres at 3c you have a bad set of winter tyres, simple.

I told it was not just one set of tyres, but 16 years of my observations on various setups in various conditions.

Stating that summer tyres are better in wet road conditions in temperatures just above 0 is rather weird if you understand the typical differences between summer and winter tyres, and for somebody with so much experience (your words) its a really strange statement.
Summer tyres are about having as much rubber in contact with the tarmac whilst winter tyres allow for wider grooves etc to allow for snow to get in there to be able to help them 'stick' to the snow you are driving on or to help dispense of surface water in wet conditions etc...

I absolutely agree with the snow. I repeated it here many times that winter tyres make tremendous difference on snow, and for snow driving they are pretty much a necessity.
But in wet conditions, my observations seem to confirm that summer tyres are better.
In the end tread grooves in summer tyres are designed to dispense water, while winter tyres tread is designed to stick to the snow and ice.
Why would winter be better on wet roads?

Biglad

CiniO wrote: »

Because I don't believe in most of those test.
They are about the same worth as f.e. such advert.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrMD_z_FnNk
Dirt just disappearing instantly - miracle.

I would like to see the test, because I believe that most stuff you see on youtube and TV is just sponsored by tyre industry.


I told it was not just one set of tyres, but 16 years of my observations on various setups in various conditions.


I absolutely agree with the snow. I repeated it here many times that winter tyres make tremendous difference on snow, and for snow driving they are pretty much a necessity.
But in wet conditions, my observations seem to confirm that summer tyres are better.
In the end tread grooves in summer tyres are designed to dispense water, while winter tyres tread is designed to stick to the snow and ice.
Why would winter be better on wet roads?

You just believe what you want to believe when it comes to testing...

Why are winter tyres better in the wet than summer tyres you are asking me after stating that you have 16 years of experience with driving on them...where's my coat...

CiniO

Biglad wrote: »

You just believe what you want to believe when it comes to testing...

No, I believe what I've seen myself. If tests contradict what's my own experience, then I believe tests are not genuine.

Why are winter tyres better in the wet than summer tyres you are asking me after stating that you have 16 years of experience with driving on them...where's my coat...

That's exactly what I'm asking, as my 16 years of experience driving with them seem to show otherwise.

Biglad

CiniO wrote: »

No, I believe what I've seen myself. If tests contradict what's my own experience, then I believe tests are not genuine.


That's exactly what I'm asking, as my 16 years of experience driving with them seem to show otherwise.

Listen, you are clearly not open to anything but your own 'experience'. You don't believe tyre manufacturers, and you don't understand the theory behind the idea of winter tyres.

Like I said...where is my coat...

Ps here is a clip from one of these tyre manufacturers, they might not have all of your experience but I'm sure that at this stage they have a fair idea...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7kkQRzOldc

Good luck and stay safe...

CiniO

Biglad wrote: »

Listen, you are clearly not open to anything but your own 'experience'. You don't believe tyre manufacturers, and you don't understand the theory behind the idea of winter tyres.

Well, that's pretty much very natural, isn't it?
If you see that grass is green, and there will be group of people who will try to convince you that in fact it's red, will you believe them, or will you still be open only to your perception and experience telling you that grass is green?

Like I said...where is my coat...

Ps here is a clip from one of these tyre manufacturers, they might not have all of your experience but I'm sure that at this stage they have a fair idea...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7kkQRzOldc

Good luck and stay safe...

That clip is perfect example of what I was telling you before. It's just advertising clip, which main goal is to convince people that they need winter tyres.
And while in fact probably most data from this clip is correct, I don't think that data in relation to wet braking in winter is correct.

The same as clip I linked earlier about cleaining utensil is also not exactly genuine as you can imagine.


That's the problem of tyre industry. In Europe not that many people live in places where snow and ice is common on the roads, and there must be some way to convince those people that they need winter tyres, and doing so by telling them that they are also beneficial on wet or dry road at low temperatures is best way to achieve this goal. Whether it's true or not is not that important here when it comes to marketing campaigns.
Otherwise sales of winter tyres would be way down, as only people who drive is snowy regions would buy them.

Biglad

CiniO wrote: »

Well, that's pretty much very natural, isn't it?
If you see that grass is green, and there will be group of people who will try to convince you that in fact it's red, will you believe them, or will you still be open only to your perception and experience telling you that grass is green?




That clip is perfect example of what I was telling you before. It's just advertising clip, which main goal is to convince people that they need winter tyres.
And while in fact probably most data from this clip is correct, I don't think that data in relation to wet braking in winter is correct.

The same as clip I linked earlier about cleaining utensil is also not exactly genuine as you can imagine.


That's the problem of tyre industry. In Europe not that many people live in places where snow and ice is common on the roads, and there must be some way to convince those people that they need winter tyres, and doing so by telling them that they are also beneficial on wet or dry road at low temperatures is best way to achieve this goal. Whether it's true or not is not that important here when it comes to marketing campaigns.
Otherwise sales of winter tyres would be way down, as only people who drive is snowy regions would buy them.

omg