**Spoilers** Christmas 2014 Special, 'Last Christmas'

B.A._Baracus

Sonics2k wrote: »

...

I also noticed that Doctor woke up in a place that looked exactly like where Clara attempted to throw away the keys, though that was also a dream.

...

Did not get that one bit.
What was the point? to annoy tease fans into thinking that

the whole latter part of the season was a dream

. It just came off as cheap.

pixelburp

Well, I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed that no end, definitely the strongest Christmas Episode in years. In places it more like a coda to the Series 8 finale if anything, getting some closure on events in that episode and the lies the Doctor / Clara told each other at the end. While yes, the second ending felt like an obvious reshoot to cater for a change of mind by Jenna Coleman, it also felt like a proper gelling of the Doctor and Clara as friends, both of them coming to terms with each other, and the stronger for it. The Doctor's innocent joy when in the sleigh was lovely too, just the right amount of warmth for the spikier, less 'cuddly' Doc

As to the plot, sure it was blatantly riffing not just on things like Aliens and Inception, it had the decency to at least point this out, courtesy of yet another killer line from Capaldi. Equally, I thought the subversion of Moffat's "Don't look/think/blink" mantra was nicely done, gently mocking the mechanic with its use of Christmas music.

It was also super dark, I was apprehensive about the inclusion of Santa Claus but without him this would have been a very dark, gloomy tale. In fact his presence was arguably the highlight, Nick Frost playing a blinder with the banter, sparring brilliantly with The Doctor. To the extent that I wouldn't mind seeing him again, however they managed to write it into the story.

The Series 8 finale left me cold and a bit humbug about things, this Xmas story really perked up my enthusiasm and now can't wait for the new run in 2015 - which, by the way, will be the 10th anniversary of the show's return.

Sonics2k

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Did not get that one bit.
What was the point? to annoy tease fans into thinking that

the whole latter part of the season was a dream

. It just came off as cheap.

Spoiler boxes abound!

The pessimist in me suspects it could be because last season was not taken quite as well as previous seasons, eg Ecceleston/Tennant and so on. It would also potentially allow a change to finale, such as the Master not returning at all.

Then again it's Moffat and he could go anyway with it, potentially ignoring it completely or doing something at a later date.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Do we know for sure that Coleman changed her mind about staying at the last minute so they tacked that bit on the end?

She never actually confirmed she was leaving and it made the last episode of S8 all the more emotional because we just didn't know, and then again it seemed like the scene where she's old in the Christmas special was her goodbye and it was quite touching because again we just didn't know. The only time I heard her talk about it she said something along the lines of if you know I'm definitely coming back (or leaving) it kills the suspense.

Granted it could be read that way, they genuinely weren't sure if she was coming back or not but with filming starting in January and a few of the scripts and the overall arc of the next series plotted out it would seem they've known for quite a while she was staying?

Anyway... I loved this episode. Capaldi is just brilliant, he's so funny at times but it's like a subtle comedy, not like Smith's over the top "loud" comedy and some of the stuff with Santa was brilliant. I don't think we were meant to read anything into the fact that the Doctor may have woken up on the planet he was on with Clara and therefore all of the finale stuff never happened. As for the Clara being old stuff was meant to be her exit, I don't know, I think it could also be read as the Doctor's subconscious giving him that one last push to go back for her.

I'm glad that Clara is staying on for a while longer and I absolutely adore Coleman and Capaldi together however.... after my initial sadness after the last episode where it looked like she was gone I got to thinking about it and I was kind of okay with that ending, sad as it was, because it kind of fit with their entire relationship up to that point. Then when I kind of thought this Christmas episode was her last episode I was sad but again okay with her ending being the Doctor coming back to her 62 years later because it was a really lovely way to end it too. Basically what I'm saying is how the hell are they going to top either of those endings when she eventually does leave?

pixelburp

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Do we know for sure that Coleman changed her mind about staying at the last minute so they tacked that bit on the end?

We don't know for sure, but that last scene seemed so brutally plastered on, it's hard not to speculate that they initially wrote the story as Clara's last as they weren't 100% if she was staying, then tweaked the script when she decided her next move. It could have been done better tbh, it made the already convoluted script tip into excess imo. Not so much as to ruin the story, but just take the sheen off a little.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I'm glad that Clara is staying on for a while longer and I absolutely adore Coleman and Capaldi together however.... after my initial sadness after the last episode where it looked like she was gone I got to thinking about it and I was kind of okay with that ending, sad as it was, because it kind of fit with their entire relationship up to that point. Then when I kind of thought this Christmas episode was her last episode I was sad but again okay with her ending being the Doctor coming back to her 62 years later because it was a really lovely way to end it too. Basically what I'm saying is how the hell are they going to top either of those endings when she eventually does leave?

Perhaps she'll buck the trend of companions and simply leave to do better things? Usually companions just seem to 'go home', settle down and become generally dissatisfied with their lot 'cos it ain't travelling with the Doctor: it'd be nice if Clara left for a good reason and was happy to do so. It'd also suit the more character-focused arc of series 8 by downplaying the emotion a little.

The_Valeyard

I'd say she might leave half way during season 8 like Amy and Rory did during 7.

tritium

They basically ripped of the premise of an episode of the outer limits, spliced in bits from a few other movies and laughed at how cheeky they were being!

Not a bad episode but zero originality. If someone stole that much content from the BBC they'd likely sue the ass off them.

pixelburp

tritium wrote: »

They basically ripped of the premise of an episode of the outer limits, spliced in bits from a few other movies and laughed at how cheeky they were being!

Not a bad episode but zero originality. If someone stole that much content from the BBC they'd likely sue the ass off them.

I dunno, it wasn't so blatant as the Xmas episode that straight-up copied the plot of A Christmas Carol To be fair, Dr. Who has been nicking concepts and themes all the way back into the classic series; it was practically its modus operandi back in the 70s!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

pixelburp wrote: »

I dunno, it wasn't so blatant as the Xmas episode that straight-up copied the plot of A Christmas Carol To be fair, Dr. Who has been nicking concepts and themes all the way back into the classic series; it was practically its modus operandi back in the 70s!

The one from a few years ago with the pilot was more than a little like A Matter of Life And Death too.

Doctor DooM

Yeah, I don't think giving out about the Christmas episodes for ripping stuff really works, they actually explicitly say they're doing it as a conceit.

BlitzKrieg

Sonics2k wrote: »

I also noticed that Doctor woke up in a place that looked exactly like where Clara attempted to throw away the keys, though that was also a dream.

he wakes up both times on the planet so yes in the reality at the end of the episode it was the lava planet

Doctor DooM

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

he wakes up both times on the planet so yes in the reality at the end of the episode it was the lava planet

Clara wasn't with him, she was in her own house, which might mean she never argued with him over Danny, or in fact that she might not have ever gotten that phone call... bet he's alive and thus Orson.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

We don't know for sure, but that last scene seemed so brutally plastered on, it's hard not to speculate that they initially wrote the story as Clara's last as they weren't 100% if she was staying, then tweaked the script when she decided her next move. It could have been done better tbh, it made the already convoluted script tip into excess imo. Not so much as to ruin the story, but just take the sheen off a little.

I would not blame her for not being sure if she would stay on, to be honest. Given the level of unwarranted total nerd rage towards her it must be hard to turn up for work everyday

B.A._Baracus

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Did not get that one bit.
What was the point? to annoy tease fans into thinking that

the whole latter part of the season was a dream

. It just came off as cheap.

It worked for Dallas

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

I would not blame her for not being sure if she would stay on, to be honest. Given the level of unwarranted total nerd rage towards her it must be hard to turn up for work everyday

The reaction towards her is so weird. There seems to be no middle ground. People either really like her or despise her. I don't understand it myself especially since the Doctor changed. You can kind of understand people not liking her when she was with Matt Smith because the Ponds were so bizarrely popular but since Capaldi came on I think the character has improved immensely. Funny old world.

Doctor DooM

Personally I find Clara one of the more likable companions. I don't get the rage.

1) She's flawed. She lies and says stupid things sometimes. She might be the impossible girl but she's no mary sue like Rose who's perfect for no good reason. She's a good person though, under it all.

2) She's smart without being a rocket scientist (although it's kind of implied several times she's wasting time as a maths teacher as she's an actual genius. Shades of Peter Parker). Crazy mad ancient alien says I should stay in this box when monsters are around? I think I just might do that, instead of going TEEHEE and chasing after adventure.

3) She's strong- often a leader, sometimes to the point of pretending to actually be the Doctor- and often saves him- but never does she seem to rely on the "strong independant woman" or "cold bitch" stereotypes TV and movies always seem to rely on (Amy often came across as a nasty individual as there was a little bit of this to her).

I probably prefer Donna as a character to Clara (Donna really did come across as a normal person shouting "WHAT ARE YOU DOING" and being the Doctor's conscience and I loved that) but the one thing I don't think you can say about her is that she's not a good character. There's more meat on her bones than any other Nu who assistant at this point imo. I certainly don't think you can say she's not acted well either. So where's the problem?

Doctor DooM

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Personally I find Clara one of the more likable companions. I don't get the rage.

1) She's flawed. She lies and says stupid things sometimes. She might be the impossible girl but she's no mary sue like Rose who's perfect for no good reason. She's a good person though, under it all.

2) She's smart without being a rocket scientist (although it's kind of implied several times she's wasting time as a maths teacher as she's an actual genius. Shades of Peter Parker). Crazy mad ancient alien says I should stay in this box when monsters are around? I think I just might do that, instead of going TEEHEE and chasing after adventure.

3) She's strong- often a leader, sometimes to the point of pretending to actually be the Doctor- and often saves him- but never does she seem to rely on the "strong independant woman" or "cold bitch" stereotypes TV and movies always seem to rely on (Amy often came across as a nasty individual as there was a little bit of this to her).

I probably prefer Donna as a character to Clara (Donna really did come across as a normal person shouting "WHAT ARE YOU DOING" and being the Doctor's conscience and I loved that) but the one thing I don't think you can say about her is that she's not a good character. There's more meat on her bones than any other Nu who assistant at this point imo. I certainly don't think you can say she's not acted well either. So where's the problem?

Bingo. I like her as she reminds me of Donna (while being really different).

I found it hard to like Amy, as she was a bitch at times, but I always took from it that she was damaged by the Doctor not returning and making her parents think that she was a bit mad.

By her end run she had grown into a normal(ish) person

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Doctor DooM wrote: »

There's more meat on her bones than any other Nu who assistant at this point imo. I certainly don't think you can say she's not acted well either. So where's the problem?

I'm sure there are a lot of people with valid reasons for not warming to her but a lot of the hatred seems to stem from 1 - She's not Amy (which should have worn off by now) and 2 - It's called Doctor Who, not Clara. Which implies they're not interested in having a well developed companion and just want to watch the Doctor run about having adventures.

I think I've said this before but I didn't really like Matt Smith as the Doctor. His earlier episodes were okay but his entire run seemed a bit too childish for my tastes. I liked Clara when they brought her on board but I don't think she and Smith's doctor ever really clicked, probably not helped by the fact they never tried to make her anything other than a plot point for the Doctor to figure out. From the first proper scene Coleman and Capaldi had together I knew there was something completely different happening this series and I was glad of it. I can only assume a lot of people were not. For what it's worth I've seen a lot of people complain about Capaldi being too dark or too moody, so I suppose it's just different strokes for different folks.

I feel like Coleman and Capaldi are more on the same level acting wise whereas I always felt she was better than Smith and was really struggling against his manic performances. This series it feels more mature and more like a real relationship between two grown ups. There's more going on than just jumping about from scene to scene and lots of noise but not a lot really happening.

Doctor DooM

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I'm sure there are a lot of people with valid reasons for not warming to her but a lot of the hatred seems to stem from 1 - She's not Amy (which should have worn off by now) and 2 - It's called Doctor Who, not Clara. Which implies they're not interested in having a well developed companion and just want to watch the Doctor run about having adventures.

I think I've said this before but I didn't really like Matt Smith as the Doctor. His earlier episodes were okay but his entire run seemed a bit too childish for my tastes. I liked Clara when they brought her on board but I don't think she and Smith's doctor ever really clicked, probably not helped by the fact they never tried to make her anything other than a plot point for the Doctor to figure out. From the first proper scene Coleman and Capaldi had together I knew there was something completely different happening this series and I was glad of it. I can only assume a lot of people were not. For what it's worth I've seen a lot of people complain about Capaldi being too dark or too moody, so I suppose it's just different strokes for different folks.

I feel like Coleman and Capaldi are more on the same level acting wise whereas I always felt she was better than Smith and was really struggling against his manic performances. This series it feels more mature and more like a real relationship between two grown ups. There's more going on than just jumping about from scene to scene and lots of noise but not a lot really happening.

Perhaps what's happening here is people not being too happy about change in general. I guess possibly a lot of them are newer to Who and don't like the urban renewal we get every 3 or 4 years? Clara is replacing some people's first assistant after all.

I did like Smith, but when it was announced he was going I was not upset, because I'd felt that version of the character had really gone as far as it could have. He was right on the edge of self parody. It's a long time since Ecclestone and yes, a more serious doctor is great around now.

I agree totally Clara works well with Capaldi. I didn't like how S8 ended but with the bookend of the Christmas special the bitter taste of that's gone and I'm interested in what happens now.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I agree totally Clara works well with Capaldi. I didn't like how S8 ended but with the bookend of the Christmas special the bitter taste of that's gone and I'm interested in what happens now.

I'm hoping the people speculating that the entire end of S8 was a dream are wrong. No offense to Danny Pink but I hope he stays dead.

Yeah, has the entire S8 second half been overwritten now. Are they still dreaming with the tangerine being shown? Will the Dream Lord be back?

It is actually a lot better feeling than how the regular season ended.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I'm hoping the people speculating that the entire end of S8 was a dream are wrong. No offense to Danny Pink but I hope he stays dead.

How can that be "No offense"????:pac:

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

How can that be "No offense"????:pac:

It's just what you say when you're about to say something really offensive.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

If you think it through though, which I finally have, Danny is still dead even if the end of S8 was a dream.

In the Christmas episode the Doctor seems to be waking up on the volcano planet Clara took him to after Danny died. So, say instead of him managing to trick her into telling him her plan she actually succeeded in stinking the sleepy patch on him and nothing since then actually happened. That still leaves the Doctor and Clara in the immediate aftermath of Danny's death. Still dead.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

If you think it through though, which I finally have, Danny is still dead even if the end of S8 was a dream.

In the Christmas episode the Doctor seems to be waking up on the volcano planet Clara took him to after Danny died. So, say instead of him managing to trick her into telling him her plan she actually succeeded in stinking the sleepy patch on him and nothing since then actually happened. That still leaves the Doctor and Clara in the immediate aftermath of Danny's death. Still dead.

He is only mostly dead

Mr Bloat

Deleted User wrote: »

He is only mostly dead

Call Miracle Max!

Actually don't, I want Danny to stay dead. I don't want another Amy and Rory in the Tardis.

Busi_Girl08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

If you think it through though, which I finally have, Danny is still dead even if the end of S8 was a dream.

In the Christmas episode the Doctor seems to be waking up on the volcano planet Clara took him to after Danny died. So, say instead of him managing to trick her into telling him her plan she actually succeeded in stinking the sleepy patch on him and nothing since then actually happened. That still leaves the Doctor and Clara in the immediate aftermath of Danny's death. Still dead.

That would be the worst possible thing to happen on Doctor Who other than Capaldi suddenly regenerating into Mr. Blobby.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

That would be the worst possible thing to happen on Doctor Who other than Capaldi suddenly regenerating into Mr. Blobby.

Well yes, I agree but a lot of people seem to still be going under the assumption that the end if S8 was all a dream. I'm just reassuring myself that even if it was the point where it started from would still mean dead Danny.