Breaking - Pakistan School Attack

Xios

DeadHand wrote: »

They are Muslims.

Their actions were inspired by Islam, a narrow and murderous interpretation of Islam, but Islam nonetheless. Exactly like the guy in Sydney.

Demonstrating a willfull blindness to these basic facts may be fashionable, safe and "tolerant" but it's wrong, it's cowardly and does no good to anyone.

No, these acts are illogically justified by Islam. They are not inspired by Islam. This is as much a religious attack as the Omagh Bombings were. This was a planned operation to do the most damage with little resources. They attacked the children of military personnel to force the Pakistani military to re-evaluate their goals in Waziristan. This is sending a huge message to soldiers in pakistans army "If you continue to fight us, it will cost you your children". It is a horrendous tactic to demoralize your enemy.

These are not a bunch of farmers who read the koran and thought,

'Jee willikers buddy, this book here says we should murder 130 children.'
'By Golly you're right, i'll grab my bomb vest.'

Karl Stein

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Who do you think NATO were fighting in Afghanistan? This sort of attack (albeit with fewer victims) happened fairly regularly in Kabul but all the time they were killing NATO soldiers they were lauded as freedom fighters by many on this board.

Your principle 'contribution' to this thread is to use the deaths of these people to try to castigate those who didn't/don't support the NATO's (read the British Army's) failed military adventurism in Afghanistan. Stay classy.

DrumSteve

Xios wrote: »

No, these acts are illogically justified by Islam. They are not inspired by Islam. This is as much a religious attack as the Omagh Bombings were. This was a planned operation to do the most damage with little resources. They attacked the children of military personnel to force the Pakistani military to re-evaluate their goals in Waziristan. This is sending a huge message to soldiers in pakistans army "If you continue to fight us, it will cost you your children". It is a horrendous tactic to demoralize your enemy.

These are not a bunch of farmers who read the koran and thought,

'Jee willikers buddy, this book here says we should murder 130 children.'
'By Golly you're right, i'll grab my bomb vest.'

I think it could go either way to be honest, but one thing is for sure, there will be some serious retribution for this and it won't be reported on the news.

Xios

DrumSteve wrote: »

I think it could go either way to be honest, but one thing is for sure, there will be some serious retribution for this and it won't be reported on the news.

There most certainly will. I imagine that a few villages will 'disappear', and you're right, nobody will hear, and nobody will care, until the actions come full circle again in the same manner as today.

Fratton Fred

Karl Stein wrote: »

Your principle 'contribution' to this thread is to use the deaths of these people to try to castigate those who didn't/don't support the NATO's (read the British Army's) failed military adventurism in Afghanistan. Stay classy.

Oh, here's one.

DeadHand

Xios wrote: »

No, these acts are illogically justified by Islam. They are not inspired by Islam. This is as much a religious attack as the Omagh Bombings were

Hand wringing.

An illogical justification is still a justification. This attack was inspired and justified by an illogical interpretation of Islam.

There is very little logic in any interpretation of Islam as far as I can see, but that's a different thread.

The Taliban are not comparable to the IRA in terms of motivation. The IRA never sought to impose their own brutal version of a religion on other people. This is the Taliban's main goal.

It was a religiously inspired attack in a religiously inspired war. The religion in question is Islam.

bear1

Pakistani army is reporting that they have killed 5 of the 6 terrorists. They are still searching for more. Hope they get the lot of them.

Donkey Oaty

bear1 wrote: »

Pakistani army is reporting that they have killed 5 of the 6 terrorists. They are still searching for more. Hope they get the lot of them.

The sixth one has now been killed, according to Al Jazeera, quoting the Pakistan Army - no further details as yet.

enda1

An act like this could have been justified in the name of any religion. Christianity was used as a justification for all sorts of equally as abhorrent acts in the past.

It is nothing to do with religion. Its to do with power, corruption, control, lawlessness, criminality. Typical human traits and ones which come to the fore in such conditions as Pakistan is in at this moment in time.

yipeeeee

Bastards.

yipeeeee

enda1 wrote: »

An act like this could have been justified in the name of any religion. Christianity was used as a justification for all sorts of equally as abhorrent acts in the past.

It is nothing to do with religion. Its to do with power, corruption, control, lawlessness, criminality. Typical human traits and ones which come to the fore in such conditions as Pakistan is in at this moment in time.

But the world and Christianity has moved on from the 12th century, these are still stuck in it.

bear1

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

The sixth one has now been killed, according to Al Jazeera, quoting the Pakistan Army - no further details as yet.

Here's hoping their God judges them.
Hope it was equally painful for them to die. Shower of cnuts.

Spudmonkey

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

The sixth one has now been killed, according to Al Jazeera, quoting the Pakistan Army - no further details as yet.

Its too good for them, an easy way out....

Grand Moff Tarkin

bear1 wrote: »

Pakistani army is reporting that they have killed 5 of the 6 terrorists. They are still searching for more. Hope they get the lot of them.

It is the planners of the entire operation who I would also like to see facing a firing squad. The cowards who went in to kill children knew from the start that they were dead men walking.

yipeeeee

bear1 wrote: »

Here's hoping their God judges them.
Hope it was equally painful for them to die. Shower of cnuts.

Hate to break it to you, there is no God...

Karl Stein

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Oh, here's one.

One what? The West had no problem doing business with the Taliban when they thought it might be in western 'interests'.

[US] Ambassador [to Pakistan] Simons assessed the situation in Afghanistan for Assistant Secretary Raphel, prior to her visit to the region. He praised the Taliban for their ability to restore order to Kandahar.. The Scenesetter ends with bullet points outlining U.S. policy interests ranging from a peace process, counterterrorism including the request to "give up or expel Usama Bin Ladin," counternarcotics, humanitarian issues, and gas and oil pipelines.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB97/#doc16

Of course the doing business with the Taliban on 'humanitarian issues' would be like setting up a children's home with the help of Jimmy Saville. The UK's principle interest in Afghanistan was it's lapdog relationship with the US. If you're angry about the BA's failure in Afghanistan you should look closer to home rather than trying to blame people who wanted no part in it or saw it for the bullshit 'educating flowers in the desert' for what it was.

How disgusting of you to try to use this tragedy to your own ends.

bear1

A horrible account from one of the surviving children:

https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedIndia/status/544835003796819968/photo/1

Traumatised for life I imagine.

Roger Hassenforder

Xios wrote: »

No, these acts are illogically justified by Islam. They are not inspired by Islam. This is as much a religious attack as the Omagh Bombings were. This was a planned operation to do the most damage with little resources. They attacked the children of military personnel to force the Pakistani military to re-evaluate their goals in Waziristan. This is sending a huge message to soldiers in pakistans army "If you continue to fight us, it will cost you your children". It is a horrendous tactic to demoralize your enemy.

These are not a bunch of farmers who read the koran and thought,

'Jee willikers buddy, this book here says we should murder 130 children.'
'By Golly you're right, i'll grab my bomb vest.'

Probability of a few "Allah akbars" just before they opened up on those kids is quite high I reckon.
There is little comparison between the omagh bombing and this attack; there was 'a warning', kids weren't deliberately targeted, Mckevitt/cambell intended to escape, not martyr themselves in their act and receive their 72 virgins. To try to separate Islamic ideology from the perpetrators of this atrocity is disingenuous.

enda1

yipeeeee wrote: »

But the world and Christianity has moved on from the 12th century, these are still stuck in it.

Perhaps. But that's a societal issue not a religious one. Christianity in parts of Africa for example is used as justification for abhorrent acts too, countries which are not as advanced as our societies.

It's just that most of the current basket case countries with advanced and highly equipped paramilitaries happen to be Muslim.

bear1

yipeeeee wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, there is no God...

Hate to break it to you, but I don't care about their beliefs. They got what they deserved, albeit they deserved a hell of a lot more. So if there is a higher being then I like to think they are in the worst hell can throw at them.

Sheep Lover

yipeeeee wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, there is no God...

How do you know?

Xios

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Probability of a few "Allah akbars" just before they opened up on those kids is quite high I reckon.
There is little comparison between the omagh bombing and this attack; there was 'a warning', kids weren't deliberately targeted, Mckevitt/cambell intended to escape, not martyr themselves in their act and receive their 72 virgins. To try to separate Islamic ideology from the perpetrators of this atrocity is disingenuous.

I'm not comparing the incidents like for like, I was just stating that this attack is politically and militarily motivated, with religion being the excuse, not the reason.

BoJack Horseman

Sheep Lover wrote: »

How do you know?

Better to prove the positive than trying to prove a negative.

Grand Moff Tarkin

enda1 wrote: »

Perhaps. But that's a societal issue not a religious one. Christianity in parts of Africa for example is used as justification for abhorrent acts too, countries which are not as advanced as our societies.

It's just that most of the current basket case countries with advanced and highly equipped paramilitaries happen to be Muslim.

You only have to go back 60 or 70 years to see the evil hold Christianity had over this country.

In the 17th century the American branch of the faith was burning women who they thought practice witchcraft and only a few centuries back in Spain the inquisition was doing great business for firewood all in the name of a faith.

Karl Stein

Karl Stein wrote: »

Of course the doing business with the Taliban on 'humanitarian issues' would be like setting up a children's home with the help of Jimmy Saville.

Ah now that's just getting too far-fetched.

yipeeeee

Sheep Lover wrote: »

How do you know?

Well going by the evidence put in front on me, which is a book written two thousand
years ago im gonna go out on a whim and form my own opinion that there isn't.

Fratton Fred

Karl Stein wrote: »

One what? The West had no problem doing business with the Taliban when they thought it might be in western 'interests'.



Of course the doing business with the Taliban on 'humanitarian issues' would be like setting up a children's home with the help of Jimmy Saville. The UK's principle interest in Afghanistan was it's lapdog relationship with the US. If you're angry about the BA's failure in Afghanistan you should look closer to home rather than trying to blame people who wanted no part in it or saw it for the bullshit 'educating flowers in the desert' for what it was.

How disgusting of you to try to use this tragedy to your own ends.

You're the one who is talking about the British army. Again.

It's a ****ing obsession for you isn't it?

This is what the Taliban do, they slaughter innocent people and use their own perverse view of Islam to justify it.

This isn't an isolated incident. It is more deadly than before, but the anti British/US crowd would conveniently ignore it before, more obsessed with drone attacks or supposed oil pipelines. Now it has happened in Pakistan it is hard to ignore and hide behind some anti west pc agenda.

BoJack Horseman

I feel terrible.

As an evil westerner I had no idea the Taliban slaughtering 100 children was my fault!

Xios

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You're the one who is talking about the British army. Again.

It's a ****ing obsession for you isn't it?

This is what the Taliban do, they slaughter innocent people and use their own perverse view of Islam to justify it.

This isn't an isolated incident. It is more deadly than before, but the anti British/US crowd would conveniently ignore it before, more obsessed with drone attacks or supposed oil pipelines. Now it has happened in Pakistan it is hard to ignore and hide behind some anti west pc agenda.

While I don't disagree with you that the Taliban need to disappear, you got to understand that someone is funding, arming and supporting the Taliban.

And that conflicts like this do not happen in a vacuum, there is definitely a geopolitical interest in the region for all the global powers, why else would Afghanistan be a war torn nation/region for the past 30/40 years.

Sheep Lover

yipeeeee wrote: »

Well going by the evidence put in front on me, which is a book written two thousand
years ago im gonna go out on a whim and form my own opinion that there isn't.

Well I actually don't know whether there is some form or a god or not, how can anyone know for sure?

You just seemed so sure in your answer, I thought you had good evidence to the point. It seems not though.

Donkey Oaty

Forget about the existence of God - the real worry is mounting evidence for the existence of the Devil.

DeadHand

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

You only have to go back 60 or 70 years to see the evil hold Christianity had over this country.

In the 17th century the American branch of the faith was burning women who they thought practice witchcraft and only a few centuries back in Spain the inquisition was doing great business for firewood all in the name of a faith.

True but, in those years, children were never slaughtered on an industrial scale in this country in the name of religion.

The 17th centry was 400 years ago, the Spainish Inquisition faded out long before that. Christianity mellowed and evolved.

It doesn't seem to me Islam has made the same leap.

Yes, all over the Muslim world where conflict occurs there are tribal, ethnic and political elements to these conflicts but religious intolerance and sectarianism are always major factors and usually the foremost ones.

Karl Stein

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You're the one who is talking about the British army. Again.

You bought up the NATO and the US/UK's principle role.

It's a ****ing obsession for you isn't it?

It's your obsession obviously.

This is what the Taliban do, they slaughter innocent people and use their own perverse view of Islam to justify it.

Oh I know the Taliban are medieval scum and don't need to be told that - just don't try to sell your 'we were only trying to educate the Afghan flowers in the desert' shite to people who don't buy into your pro-war propaganda.

This isn't an isolated incident. It is more deadly than before, but the anti British/US crowd would conveniently ignore it before, more obsessed with drone attacks or supposed oil pipelines

.

Above is a clear example of a time honoured tactic by wartards and chickenhawks i.e. to polarise views. It is somehow anti US/British to be against US/British foreign wars thousand of miles from their homelands? No, I support the people of the US and UK who are sick of having their loved ones sent to foreign ****-holes to be slaughtered for obtuse reasons.

Ireland is a neutral country I'm Irish and the vast majority of Irish people want no part of your dead empire - get used to it.

Autonomous Cowherd

Oh dear. All the cursing and religion bashing and so on. It is a slaughter of the Innocents. Another dark day. Poor poor people of Peshawar. My heart goes out to those who died, those who witnessed atrocity and are forever scarred, and the 100s of families whose lives and loves have been ruined. Brutal news.Sad, sad time.

conorhal

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

You only have to go back 60 or 70 years to see the evil hold Christianity had over this country.

In the 17th century the American branch of the faith was burning women who they thought practice witchcraft and only a few centuries back in Spain the inquisition was doing great business for firewood all in the name of a faith.

It's a good thing that we got rid of the church and all the institutional abuse stopped......oh...yeah...

It's a pretty weak argument that has to go back to the middle ages for a rebuttal, a weaker one still to cite the Spanish inquistition which killed about 300 people over it's 40yr reign of terror or 19 women killed in Salem, the kind of numbers that IS would consider a slow weekend.

gandalf

DeadHand wrote: »

True but, in those years, children were never slaughtered on an industrial scale in this country in the name of religion.

The 17th centry was 400 years ago, the Spainish Inquisition faded out long before that. Christianity mellowed and evolved.

It doesn't seem to me Islam has made the same leap.

Yes, all over the Muslim world where conflict occurs there are tribal, ethnic and political elements to these conflicts but religious intolerance and sectarianism are always major factors and usually the foremost ones.

Rwanda is a mainly Catholic country where between 500,000 - 1,000,000 got killed in a genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

Maybe you should keep your eyes a little more open eh

cometogether

How is it that the Sky News website still has the story about the woman who shielded her pregnant friend in Sydney yesterday higher up than this attack?

Grand Moff Tarkin

My apologies I hope everyone knows I am against all forms of religion and murder of any kind in the name of some made up gods in the sky.

The examples in my last post were to show how savage mankind can be in support of some hidden gods.

SpaceTime

I don't really think the issue is 'religion' per se, rather it's an issue around cult-like behaviour which seems to evolve around religious and political extremism. Whether you're talking islamic extremism or nazism it's all the same mentality behind it - some notion of 'the chosen few' and a fascist notion that they should impose their will on everyone else or that they should engage in some kind of ethnic cleansing (aka mass murder).

The only way to deal with this is for the normal (vast majority) populations of the countries, regions and religious communities impacted by these kinds of psychopaths to root them out, make sure that they do not get any kind of credibility and ensure that they do not get any kind of ability to control people or push their twisted message.

If people keep taking these nutters seriously and giving them a sense that they're something legitimate, they just keep going.

They're violent, criminal, psychopathic murders and nothing more.

Also, these organisations tend to act like magnets for very disturbed, very twisted, very violent individuals who seem to come to them like moths to a flame. You have to deal with that aspect of the problem too.
There are quite obviously a lot of disaffected, somewhat unhinged types supporting them.
Find out why and tackle that urgently.

Son Of A Vidic

yipeeeee wrote: »

I hate religion.

And that's the problem right there. If people just stopped hating different religions/beliefs/races/sexual orientations ect, ect. The world would be a much safer & happier place.

Donkey Oaty

cometogether wrote: »

How is it that the Sky News website still has the story about the woman who shielded her pregnant friend in Sydney yesterday higher up than this attack?

?Link?

Still the headline here: http://news.sky.com/

Grand Moff Tarkin

conorhal wrote: »

It's a good thing that we got rid of the church and all the institutional abuse stopped......oh...yeah...

It's a pretty weak argument that has to go back to the middle ages for a rebuttal, a weaker one still to cite the Spanish inquistition which killed about 300 people over it's 40yr reign of terror or 19 women killed in Salem, the kind of numbers that IS would consider a slow weekend.

Not going to disagree with you on any of the above. As I have stated I was just using examples of evil in the name of one form of religious deity.

cometogether

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

?Link?

Still the headline here: http://news.sky.com/

Weird, this link has a different one http://news.sky.com/us/

shirazhyder84

Terrorist do not have any religion. They can call themselves what ever they want - muslims, guardians of Islam, Last caliph - the truth is they are just terrorist and should be dealt keeping that in mind. Islam does not preach you to kill innocent people. The two basic teachings of Islam are:

1 - If you have killed an innocent person, that would mean you have killed the whole humanity.
2 - Even if you are in a war, do not harm/hurt children, elderly and women.

Thereby, like I said before Talibans (or ISIS) are definitely not following the teachings of Islam and thus should not be considered as muslims (we muslims don't), although I would like to see them being punished the true Islamic way - life for life no mercy no leniency no jail time!!!

Donkey Oaty

cometogether wrote: »

Weird, this link has a different one http://news.sky.com/us/

That is an odd editorial decision, considering that US networks like CNN are leading with the Pakistan story.

Defender OF Faith

Beano wrote: »

remind me again how many people have been killed in the name of atheism?

Stalin was an atheist. His government promoted atheism and he have killed more people then any religion fanatic could hope for in order to purge religion from his land.

shirazhyder84 wrote: »

F***king bastards!!!!!!!! Really do not know how to express my anger towards them. I am a muslim and a Pakistani and I do not believe the guy who was involved in Yesterday's siege and the guys (Talibans) involved in killing the innocent school kids Today are muslims. They are just bunch of retards who should be shot down on first sight!!!

True the irony is that they claim to be following Islam and yet their victims were Muslim. I wonder if they were not aware of this verse in the Quran they claim to follow or did it simply not fit their purpose so they choose to disregard it.

" But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment."
4;93

Roger Hassenforder

shirazhyder84 wrote: »

Terrorist do not have any religion. They can call themselves what ever they want - muslims, guardians of Islam, Last caliph - the truth is they are just terrorist and should be dealt keeping that in mind. Islam does not preach you to kill innocent people. The two basic teachings of Islam are:

1 - If you have killed an innocent person, that would mean you have killed the whole humanity.
2 - Even if you are in a war, do not harm/hurt children, elderly and women.

Thereby, like I said before Talibans (or ISIS) are definitely not following the teachings of Islam and thus should not be considered as muslims (we muslims don't), although I would like to see them being punished the true Islamic way - life for life no mercy no leniency no jail time!!!

It is very likely they, as muslims, consider your view heretical, and themselves as the true muslims.

SpaceTime

The other very worrying characteristic of these kinds of cults that tend to emerge is that they don't fear death and don't value life and put all of their effort into collecting brownie points for some imaginary after life.
You get a similar scenario where a political organisation only cares about a theoretical legacy, so I think a very similar psychology applies to political extremists too, just a little different, but very closely related.

I'm not trying to insult anyone's religious beliefs here, but I think when someone starts to place more importance on the concept of an after life than real life, it can open up the possibility of them behaving incredibly dangerously and cruelly - at a minimum wasting their own life torturing themselves with various penances or at maximum carrying out crazy atrocities in the name of some notional belief system.

I honestly think if people spent a little more time contemplating how absolutely amazing life is, they might not be so keen to waste it!
Think about it: We're just a collection of atoms (essentially space debris from exploding stars etc) that have somehow organised themselves into a complex system that has become so amazingly sophisticated that it's capable of building entire civilisations and even contemplating its own existence and at this stage is even starting to reverse engineer itself!? It's actually completely mind-blowing as a concept.

I just find it quite frightening that people can basically disconnect themselves from their own humanity so much so that they can walk into a school and kill hundreds of people like that. It's depressing, it's twisted and it's just such a total waste.

conorhal

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Stalin was an atheist. His government promoted atheism and he have killed more people then any religion fanatic could hope for in order to purge religion from his land.

True the irony is that they claim to be following Islam and yet their victims were Muslim. I wonder if they were not aware of this verse in the Quran they claim to follow or did it simply not fit their purpose so they choose to disregard it.

" But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment."
4;93

Who's belief? No doubt they would consider their victims heretical.

The islamist are very fond of repeating the prophets hadith 'unbelief is one nation'. I'm not surprised, it has a rather sinister implication for anybody that doesn't share such individuals beliefs.

Streetwalker

Good few media outlets not leading with this story. Not saying what happened in Australia yesterday isn't newsworthy but 2 people (I don't count the scumbag that died as human) as opposed to 130 children killed today? Wtf??