Breaking - Pakistan School Attack

Fratton Fred

Karl Stein wrote: »

You bought up the NATO and the US/UK's principle role.



It's your obsession obviously.



Oh I know the Taliban are medieval scum and don't need to be told that - just don't try to sell your 'we were only trying to educate the Afghan flowers in the desert' shite to people who don't buy into your pro-war propaganda.

.

Above is a clear example of a time honoured tactic by wartards and chickenhawks i.e. to polarise views. It is somehow anti US/British to be against US/British foreign wars thousand of miles from their homelands? No, I support the people of the US and UK who are sick of having their loved ones sent to foreign ****-holes to be slaughtered for obtuse reasons.

Ireland is a neutral country I'm Irish and the vast majority of Irish people want no part of your dead empire - get used to it.

You are becoming a parody of yourself.

Ireland was involved ffs and rightly so. it was also partly responsible for sending NATO there in the first place.

But no, you keep your arse firmly on that fence, your head in the sand and carry on with your self righteousness.

Meanwhile, everyone else will live in the real world and recognise that sometimes you've got to get your hands dirty for the greater good.

jmayo

Maybe a few people around here should consider the fact that even though the perprators of this heinous act are muslims then so are the victims.

Those kids slaughtered today are probably muslim, just like most of the victims of ISIS are fellow muslims.

The thing is these kids parents happen to be in the military or they happen to be going to a school which has the kids of the military.

The problem for all islamic believers and muslims is that the moderates need to stand up and say enough is enough.

You have muslims complaining about the US, Israel, UK, Australia, or the big bad West, but it is about time they started really complaining about muslims killing fellow muslims because they are not muslim enough, because they believe in liberty, moderation or even education or because they happen to be a slightly different brand of islam.

And it is all done in the name of islam.
These gobshytes have hijacked what it is to be a muslim and what's worse is that they are not publicly called out on it by every right thinking muslim in every major muslim country in the world.

Where are the massive rallies, the massive protests, the flag burnings going to be tonight.

But the streets would be fecking full if any smuck draws a cartoon.

shirazhyder84

"Operation ended with all 6 attackers dead; COAS vows to hit terrorists hard; Army hits back with 10 airstrikes in Khyber" - Kill them all !!!!!

SpaceTime

I agree, the world's muslim population really needs to stand up and do something about these nutters. Nobody else can do it for them in reality, as only they have the moral authority to put sufficient pressure on.
When "the west" interjects it's suddenly an intercultural-war, when in reality the major problem is more like an internal sectarian conflict within the muslim world itself.

I think there is a major problem as there's a genuine fear of these guys and people are not standing up to them because they're afraid of repercussions. In a lot of places, this is not an unreasonable fear either, these guys wield significant threats of violence and mayhem.

That's also combined with some elements of media / discourse political correctness that seem to think that anything that's 'religious' is acceptable and protected from criticism (happens in Christianity, Judaism etc etc too).
Things like very tough anti-blasphemy laws allow crazy organisations within religious communities to stifle debate and hide from criticism (one reason I think our own laws in this are an absolute affront to democracy and freedom of speech).

Then you've another factor: Islam isn't really very formally structured. Christianity has always had a handful of big churches with huge, powerful hierarchies that evolved out of the Roman empire system, various monarchies etc. Islam is a much, much flatter organisation, which in some ways could be very positive, but in this case I think it's actually resulting in a leadership vacuum and extreme elements coming to the fore all the time.

There's an urgent need for moderate muslims to stop being frightened and get behind some kind of campaign to deal with these guys.

Timberrrrrrrr

Streetwalker wrote: »

Good few media outlets not leading with this story. Not saying what happened in Australia yesterday isn't newsworthy but 2 people (I don't count the scumbag that died as human) as opposed to 130 children killed today? Wtf??

Simple really


It's a sad fact that brown kids thousands of miles away are not as newsworthy as white people thousands of miles away.

Putinovsky

jmayo wrote: »

Maybe a few people around here should consider the fact that even though the perprators of this heinous act are muslims then so are the victims.

Those kids slaughtered today are probably muslim, just like most of the victims of ISIS are fellow muslims.

The thing is these kids parents happen to be in the military or they happen to be going to a school which has the kids of the military.

The problem for all islamic believers and muslims is that the moderates need to stand up and say enough is enough.

You have muslims complaining about the US, Israel, UK, Australia, or the big bad West, but it is about time they started really complaining about muslims killing fellow muslims because they are not muslim enough, because they believe in liberty, moderation or even education or because they happen to be a slightly different brand of islam.

And it is all done in the name of islam.
These gobshytes have hijacked what it is to be a muslim and what's worse is that they are not publicly called out on it by every right thinking muslim in every major muslim country in the world.

Where are the massive rallies, the massive protests, the flag burnings going to be tonight.

But the streets would be fecking full if any smuck draws a cartoon.

There have been protest rallies in Pakistan. The problem is they are usually targeted by suicide bombers.

Where were the protests in Ireland on the streets when Omagh happened? Same logic applies.

sbsquarepants

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

" But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment."
4;93

Would have been better if the lazy cúnt got off his fat arse and stepped in and stopped them. Probably too busy doing something important like smiting a cartoonist that dared draw his picture!

Xios

SpaceTime wrote: »

I just find it quite frightening that people can basically disconnect themselves from their own humanity so much so that they can walk into a school and kill hundreds of people like that. It's depressing, it's twisted and it's just such a total waste.

You need to understand that these are not educated individuals, they are sheep herders, opium farmers, mountain boys. They live tribal lives, in isolated echo chambers, I'd say quite a lot of them are illiterate. So anything that is said to them from authoritative figures is lapped up, who else is there to tell them any different?

The whole region is ripe for exploitation of naivety and that's exactly what the taliban do, they use religion to justify using extreme violence to further their political and military ideals. To say that any of this violence is due to religion is naive. It is brought about by the politics of the region.

Like it or not, this was a military attack, it is absolutely disgusting, but in their warped view of achieving military goals, these children were valid targets, the closest comparison I can think of is the Allies fire-bombing Tokyo/Nuking Hiroshima, lots of innocents died there, but the allies were focused on their end goal of finishing the war.

DeadHand

gandalf wrote: »

Rwanda is a mainly Catholic country where between 500,000 - 1,000,000 got killed in a genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

Maybe you should keep your eyes a little more open eh

Beyond an opportunity to be smug and condescending, your point is irrelevent to this discussion.

I'm aware of that genocide. It was a conflict which was purely tribal in nature, not religious.

Rwanda happens to be a primarily Catholic country but no one died during the genocide there in the name of Catholicism.

Those children were murdered in Pakistan in the name of Islam. Those people died in Sydney as a result of a person acting in the name of Islam. Again, their own murderous, minority versions of Islam.

Donkey Oaty

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Simple really


It's a sad fact that brown kids thousands of miles away are not as newsworthy as white people thousands of miles away.

Sydney is multi-racial society, and there were many non-white people in that café.

So maybe it isn't so simple really.

Defender OF Faith

DeadHand wrote: »

Rwanda happens to be a primarily Catholic country but no one died during the genocide there in the name of Catholicism.

Those children were murdered in Pakistan in the name of Islam. Those people died in Sydney as a result of a person acting in the name of Islam. Again, their own murderous, minority versions of Islam.

What about Anders Breivik who killed 77 people so he could "save Norway and Western Europe from a Muslim takeover" he described him self as a christian just like those people today that describe them self as Muslims. What about the crimes the Christian crusaders committed in response to a call from the spiritual leader of Christianity the pope him self, going as far as cannibalizing the Muslims and impaling their children were these atrocities not committed in the name of Christianity?

these people according to you were obviously not acting in the name of Christianity following their own murderous version of the religion just like these people today are not acting in the name of Islam.

SpaceTime

Xios wrote: »

You need to understand that these are not educated individuals, they are sheep herders, opium farmers, mountain boys. They live tribal lives, in isolated echo chambers, I'd say quite a lot of them are illiterate. So anything that is said to them from authoritative figures is lapped up, who else is there to tell them any different?

The whole region is ripe for exploitation of naivety and that's exactly what the taliban do, they use religion to justify using extreme violence to further their political and military ideals. To say that any of this violence is due to religion is naive. It is brought about by the politics of the region.

Like it or not, this was a military attack, it is absolutely disgusting, but in their warped view of achieving military goals, these children were valid targets, the closest comparison I can think of is the Allies fire-bombing Tokyo/Nuking Hiroshima, lots of innocents died there, but the allies were focused on their end goal of finishing the war.

I agree, but I think it's up to educated muslims in those countries to do something to provide leadership to do something about it.
The entire country of Pakistan is not populated by illiterate sheep herders, there are academics, politicians, doctors, journalists, and plenty of moderate islamic clerics.

A counter movement needs to get setup, but I don't see any sign of that happening, although maybe it is and I'm just not seeing any evidence of it as I'm so far away?

Donkey Oaty

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

What about Anders Breivik

We should also remember that he was a Jeremy Clarkson fan.

enda1

enda1 wrote: »

An act like this could have been justified in the name of any religion. Christianity was used as a justification for all sorts of equally as abhorrent acts in the past.

It is nothing to do with religion. Its to do with power, corruption, control, lawlessness, criminality. Typical human traits and ones which come to the fore in such conditions as Pakistan is in at this moment in time.

As much as people like to lambaste Islam, there is no religion in the world that approves of the mass murder of children.

The Taliban are motivated by power, not religion. Not just power over the West or so called infidels but power over other Muslims, as demonstrated today. Nothing exerts more power than fear, and there is nothing people fear more than their children being lost.

You can blame the actions of the Taliban on Islam, but those acts are not informed by Islam, but by a thirst for power and control. I think they overplayed their hand today, and that having made peoples worst fears a reality that people will feel there is less than ever to lose if they resist the insidious terror of insurgent extremists.

Xios

SpaceTime wrote: »

I agree, but I think it's up to educated muslims in those countries to do something to provide leadership to do something about it.
The entire country of Pakistan is not populated by illiterate sheep herders, there are academics, politicians, doctors, journalists, and plenty of moderate islamic clerics.

A counter movement needs to get setup, but I don't see any sign of that happening, although maybe it is and I'm just not seeing any evidence of it as I'm so far away?

I wasn't talking of Pakistan, I was speaking of the Taliban controlled areas near the Afghan border. But sure, your ideas are well intended, but they won't happen anytime soon. Not when international powers keep meddling in the affairs of these tribesmen and arms dealers keep selling them weapons. But then again, the world does like Opium, so i guess this problem won't be resolved anytime soon.

Defender OF Faith

read this just now an official statement from TTP leader claiming responsibility for the attack .

Tehreek-e-Taliban spokesman Muhammad Umar Khorasani told a foreign news agency his group was responsible for the attack.

“Our suicide bombers have entered the school, they have instructions not to harm the children, but to target the army personnel,” he said.

“We targeted the school because the army targets our families. We want them to feel our pain,” he was quoted saying by a foreign news agency.

“It’s a revenge attack for the army offensive in North Waziristan,” he said, referring to an anti-Taliban military offensive that began in June.

source; http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/12/16/national/militants-attack-peshawar-school-five-students-injured/

I cant see where he said "we did this in the name of Islam" there's always more then religious views involved behind such terror attacks it stemmed from a feeling of injustice and oppression rather then religious fanaticism

jmayo

Putinovsky wrote: »

There have been protest rallies in Pakistan. The problem is they are usually targeted by suicide bombers.

Any protest rallies in any other muslim state ?
That is a worying thing about these guys, they don't value anyone's life including their own.

Putinovsky wrote: »

Where were the protests in Ireland on the streets when Omagh happened? Same logic applies.

I don't think you can compare our violence and terrorism history with these guys.
Omagh as bad as it was, and as bad and deluded as it's planners and perps were, was never on this level.
The only comparable thing would be if a bunch of republicans attacked a school which was full of the kids of people serving in the RUC/UDR/British Army with the express intention of killing as many as possible.

Something like that would have killed the republican movement in it's tracks and resulted in wholesale internment being implemented for anyone related to the movement.

gandalf

DeadHand wrote: »

Beyond an opportunity to be smug and condescending, your point is irrelevent to this discussion.

I'm aware of that genocide. It was a conflict which was purely tribal in nature, not religious.

Rwanda happens to be a primarily Catholic country but no one died during the genocide there in the name of Catholicism.

Those children were murdered in Pakistan in the name of Islam. Those people died in Sydney as a result of a person acting in the name of Islam. Again, their own murderous, minority versions of Islam.

It was tribal, so is this conflict and any conflict where extremists are involved. Religion is just the banner or excuse in this case.

The guy in Sydney was a whackjob lone wolf with form for assault and on bail for involvement in the murder of his ex- wife, again religion was just the banner.

Tainting a whole religion because of actions of an extreme minority is wrong.

yoozername

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

What about Anders Breivik who killed 77 people so he could "save Norway and Western Europe from a Muslim takeover" he described him self as a christian just like those people today that describe them self as Muslims. What about the crimes the Christian crusaders committed in response to a call from the spiritual leader of Christianity the pope him self, going as far as cannibalizing the Muslims and impaling their children were these atrocities not committed in the name of Christianity?

these people according to you were obviously not acting in the name of Christianity following their own murderous version of the religion just like these people today are not acting in the name of Islam.

Look, just stop it. Everyone can see it. The problem is Islam, it has always been so. The charade is long over. As if it needs to be said again, but no other religion murders and destroys like it. Look at who founded the religion, he was Taliban member #1. Every unspeakable evil committed by the Taliban, ISIS, Hamas, etc has Koranic sanction. No other religion compares.

Churchill summed up Islam brilliantly in the 19th century, though I doubt he could have seen how much lower it would plummet.

Timberrrrrrrr

yoozername wrote: »

Look, just stop it. Everyone can see it. The problem is Islam, it has always been so. The charade is long over. As if it needs to be said again, but no other religion murders and destroys like it. Look at who founded the religion, he was Taliban member #1. Every unspeakable evil committed by the Taliban, ISIS, Hamas, etc has Koranic sanction. No other religion compares.

Churchill summed up Islam brilliantly in the 19th century, though I doubt he could have seen how much lower it would plummet.

That's some mighty fine blinkers you're wearing there :cool:

yoozername

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

That's some mighty fine blinkers you're wearing there :cool:

Tell me where I was wrong? Why does every conflict around the world involve Islam?

Timberrrrrrrr

yoozername wrote: »

Tell me where I was wrong? Why does every conflict around the world involve Islam?

Every conflict around the world does not involve Islam though.

Xios

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Every conflict around the world does not involve Islam though.

Even them pesky North and South Korean Muslims are always at it.

yoozername

yoozername wrote: »

Look, just stop it. Everyone can see it. The problem is Islam, it has always been so. The charade is long over. As if it needs to be said again, but no other religion murders and destroys like it. Look at who founded the religion, he was Taliban member #1. Every unspeakable evil committed by the Taliban, ISIS, Hamas, etc has Koranic sanction. No other religion compares.

Churchill summed up Islam brilliantly in the 19th century, though I doubt he could have seen how much lower it would plummet.

Ever heard of the Inquisition?

yoozername

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Every conflict around the world does not involve Islam though.

Sorry, I should said, why do 11 of the top 13 conflicts in the world involve Islam?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

yoozername

Candie wrote: »

Ever heard of the Inquisition?

Bravo sir, clap, clap. Refresh my memory, when was that?

yoozername

yoozername wrote: »

Sorry, I should said, why do 11 of the top 13 conflicts in the world involve Islam?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

Which is the bad side in each of those where it's Muslims v Muslims?

Timberrrrrrrr

yoozername wrote: »

Sorry, I should said, why do 11 of the top 13 conflicts in the world involve Islam?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

sigh


They involve people who identify themselves as Muslim, They are what's known as Islamic extremists, you may have heard the term used once or twice in the last decade. You (and many others) are just sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming ISLAM ISLAM ISLAM because that's what you want to believe.

Xios

yoozername wrote: »

Look, just stop it. Everyone can see it. The problem is Islam, it has always been so. The charade is long over.

Let's just face it, you're too lazy to bother looking into the real issues that drive these conlficts. Fundamentally the lack of education, lack of security, the economic divide and impact of foreign influences in the regions are to blame. Nothing is clear cut, nothing is simple, and saying it's Islam is fckin lazy beyong belief.

If it was just Islam, then Iran would be tearing itself apart, The sauds would have killed the Emirates, or the 22 million Muslims in china would be in constant turmoil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China#Number_of_Muslims_in_China
Let's not even mention the muslims in India.

The real issues of these regions are directly decendant of the dividing up of these nations after the collapse of the colonial empires. The cutting up of Kurdish territory into turkey, Iraq and Iran has been a huge driver of conflict in that region. Same goes for many countries in Africa where ethnic groups were forced under the same nationality.

Stop trying to simplify a massively complex situation by just saying "Islam is bad".

Islam is not bad.

Edit;/ Just to add (simply put), the main driving for conflict in Northern Ireland was the discrimination of Catholics under a Protestant ruled nation. This was the driving force behind the conflict, two large ethnic groups forced to share the same nation/region. Nothing to do with the religions themselves, just two ethnic groups going at it.

handlemaster

Pakistan needs to act our it will lose total control

wendell borton

Comfy cushions.

Beano

yoozername wrote: »

...
Churchill summed up Islam brilliantly in the 19th century, though I doubt he could have seen how much lower it would plummet.

you would probably get banned and called a bigot if you quoted that speech.

eyescreamcone

He's right.
Islam equals trouble.
All over the world their countries are a mess.
We need to stand up and say we will not put up with this carry on anymore.

The Taliban has supporters and financial backers. Get out the drones and blow the sh1t out of the lot of them.
It's the only message this crowd will understand.

Xios

Xios wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China#Number_of_Muslims_in_China
Let's not even mention the muslims in India.

Not exactly the best 2 examples given the recent attacks in China and the hotel attacks in India.

handlemaster wrote: »

Pakistan needs to act our it will lose total control

It's been acting for most of the year as it happens.

gandalf

eyescreamcone wrote: »

He's right.
Islam equals trouble.
All over the world their countries are a mess. And they want us to change to Sharia Law.

We need to stand up and say we will not put up with this carry on anymore.

The Taliban has supporters and financial backers. Get out the drones and blow the sh1t out of the lot of them.
It's the only message this crowd will understand.

/Facepalm :rolleyes:

Timberrrrrrrr

eyescreamcone wrote: »

He's right.
Islam equals trouble.
All over the world their countries are a mess.
We need to stand up and say we will not put up with this carry on anymore.

The Taliban has supporters and financial backers. Get out the drones and blow the sh1t out of the lot of them.
It's the only message this crowd will understand.

Which ones? Should we start with Mecca? What about the innocent ones that are just trying to live their lives?

lazybones32

The Taliban issued a statement saying this attack is a retaliation against the Army's targeting of their families (few news agencies went into detail on the statement, last I heard)

I'm not too knowledgeable on the affairs and happenings of North Pakistan but if the Army have killed the parents, wives and children of these people - instead of seeking the offenders themselves - then it gives a reason for this move.


And before I'm accused of supporting this, a reason isn't an excuse or justification. It's just a reason.

eyescreamcone

gandalf wrote: »

/Facepalm :rolleyes:

Or maybe we could sit down to tea with them and ask them politely to behave.

Phoebas

Problem:

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Islam equals trouble.

All over the world their countries are a mess.

Solution:

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Get out the drones and blow the sh1t out of the lot of them.

:eek:

eyescreamcone

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Which ones? Should we start with Mecca? What about the innocent ones that are just trying to live their lives?

Start with anyone remotely connected to the Taliban.

eyescreamcone

Lot's of do-gooders around here.
Maybe the Taliban are nice lads underneath it all.

Timberrrrrrrr

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Start with anyone remotely connected to the Taliban.

Isn't that what the Yanks have been doing for more than a decade? How many innocent people do you think have been killed by drone strikes in the last decade or do they not count?

yoozername

Xios wrote: »

Let's just face it, you're too lazy to bother looking into the real issues that drive these conlficts. Fundamentally the lack of education, lack of security, the economic divide and impact of foreign influences in the regions are to blame. Nothing is clear cut, nothing is simple, and saying it's Islam is fckin lazy beyong belief.

But yet, no other religion is involved in so much conflict. WHY?

If it was just Islam, then Iran would be tearing itself apart, The sauds would have killed the Emirates, or the 22 million Muslims in china would be in constant turmoil.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China#Number_of_Muslims_in_China
Let's not even mention the muslims in India.

Iran wants to destroy Israel, literally wipe them away. They have an evil theocracy running the show. The Uighurs in China are brewing up a nice little insurgency in China, maybe you missed that. And the Saudis, along with Pakistan, might be the worst people in the world. India is plagued by Islamic terrorism. Shining examples there.

The real issues of these regions are directly decendant of the dividing up of these nations after the collapse of the colonial empires. The cutting up of Kurdish territory into turkey, Iraq and Iran has been a huge driver of conflict in that region. Same goes for many countries in Africa where ethnic groups were forced under the same nationality.

Stop trying to simplify a massively complex situation by just saying "Islam is bad".

Islam is not bad.

Turkey, by the way, used to be ~100% Christian, until they were purged by the Muslims, and now it's ~100% Muslim. The Middle East has been religiously cleansed of every other religion - do I need to say by whom?

So many countries around the world were sliced and diced (nearly all of Europe in just the last few decades), same with Africa, South America, everywhere. But none of them seethe like Muslim countries. I know you can see this. What I don't know is why you deny it.

Phoebas

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Lot's of do-gooders around here.

Some people have attacked a school in Pakistan. If you're not in favour of immediately blowing the hell out of the rest of the place, you're a do-gooder. :rolleyes:

Xios

Deleted User wrote: »

Not exactly the best 2 examples given the recent attacks in China and the hotel attacks in India.

It's been acting for most of the year as it happens.

22 Million people, 5 times the population of Ireland. I'd expect some sort of trouble under the oppressive communist Han. China isn't really well renowned for the fair treatment of small ethnic groups fairly.

Timberrrrrrrr

Phoebas wrote: »

Some people have attacked a school in Pakistan. If you're not in favour of immediately blowing the hell out of the rest of the place, you're a do-gooder. :rolleyes:

Yup


Let's stop the deaths of innocent people by killing some innocent people. THAT'LL TEACH EM!

ebbsy

Mushroom cloud needed.

Timberrrrrrrr

ebbsy wrote: »

Mushroom cloud needed.

Ah so genocide is the answer? Where should this "mushroom cloud" take place?

gandalf

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Or maybe we could sit down to tea with them and ask them politely to behave.

Or maybe you could stop labeling whole religion based on the actions of a minority of extremists.

:rolleyes:

eyescreamcone

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Isn't that what the Yanks have been doing for more than a decade? How many innocent people do you think have been killed by drone strikes in the last decade or do they not count?

All you "Yanks Bad - Muslims Good" nutters need to get a grip.

Whether you like it or not we all are on the side of western society.
That is against these nutjobs.

I hope they light up Afghanistan after this.

If the Taliban want to keep their families as human shields then so be it.