Dangerous Rental House, Maybe.

TheChizler

We've been on to the PRTB and Threshold and waiting for call backs so not looking for advice so much as experiences and possible outcomes please

Myself and two friends moved into an old house back in October with a 1 year lease. It's about 150 years old and a bit shabby on the inside but we took that as part of the charm. It's two floors and part of a mixed height terrace, with the fireplace on the taller shared side. Rent is fairly good and it's managed by a well known agent who I would have thought had a pretty good reputation.

We moved in and immediately made a snag list of things that we missed and wouldn't have found during the viewing, things like broken toilet handles, loose shelving, leaking shower, mostly things I'd have no problem fixing myself if they broke while we were here but should have been fixed before we moved in. Top of the list were the unswept chimneys, an archway with loose, wobbling bricks, through and through cracks in the bedroom walls up against the chimney breast, and the fact that whole bricks had fallen down the fireplace according to the previous tenant, who had called in.

After about two months we got some of these fixed, but they totally ignored the structural issues. Last Thursday the chimneys were eventually being swept and a couple of buckets of rubble came down one of them, including several whole bricks. A chimney-structural-specialist came out the next afternoon and told us that the party wall was failing, and that he could see into the neighbour's chimney. He also thought rafters were exposed. We were told to stop using the fireplaces (we had already stopped after the sweeping) and that they would contact the landlord. I predicted that the solution would be to board up the fireplaces.

Long story short I got an email this morning confirming my prediction. Remedial works to the chimneys are too expensive so they're just going to block them off. Obviously this is less than ideal! Understandable given the cost but we signed our lease based on there being two usable fireplaces. We wouldn't have moved in otherwise as a fireplace was one our requirements. I personally don't want to move out (the thought of finding a new place and moving all my stuff again makes me slightly nauseous) and would be happy with a reduction in the rent and a report from a structural engineer confirming the wall won't actually catastrophically fail (I don't think this will happen nor does anyone else I've talked to but I'd like more than a gut feeling after being told the wall was failing). Also we'd like confirmation that the neighbour's fire won't kill us.

So, going to go home and review the lease, (and put CO detectors in the bedrooms!) but as our entitlement to enjoyment of our home has been interrupted I'd feel that we'd be able leave without penalty if it came to it. Need to confirm that. The agent hasn't been great (promised the house would be cleaned before we moved in and took them 2 weeks to get around to, 2 months to address small repairs that were pre-existing to our tenancy, house advertised with an alarm which was displaying faults when we moved in and is unacknowledged, still haven't acknowledged a leak in the kitchen roof that we pointed out over a month ago, and they still haven't addressed the crumbling arch). The more I write the more I question why we're still here.

So, anyone any experience with the safety of their home being an issue? How was it resolved? I wonder sometimes are we being slightly unrealistic with expectations towards the landlord and agent, our last landlord treated us incredibly well and was prompt with all issues, and I think overall we're very good tenants (she hugged us and cried when we moved out).

handlemaster

Move. simple

TheChizler

Wow, just realized how much of a rant that turned into.

handlemaster wrote: »

Move. simple

That's the thing, we're trying to figure out if this would count as them breaking the lease leaving us to move without penalty.

handlemaster

I would think so.

quietsailor

TheChizler wrote: »

Wow, just realized how much of a rant that turned into.



That's the thing, we're trying to figure out if this would count as them breaking the lease leaving us to move without penalty.

They probably won't do more than keep your deposit - however unless you've gotten an engineers report saying it's dangerous then they can call it breaking the lease. You'll probably win at the PRTB if you take a case to have the deposit returned but it'll take a long time and most people who go through that process come on here ranting in frustration.

dudara

You should be able to reassign the lease. If the landlord refuses, I believe that you can exit the lease, without penalty, as long as sufficient notice is given. (I hope I've remembered all that correctly).

ted1

TheChizler wrote: »

Wow, just realized how much of a rant that turned into.



That's the thing, we're trying to figure out if this would count as them breaking the lease leaving us to move without penalty.

Ring the council and ask for the house to inspected. They will say if it's suitable to be lived in. If not then there is no problem with moving

TheChizler

ted1 wrote: »

Ring the council and ask for the house to inspected. They will say if it's suitable to be lived in. If not then there is no problem with moving

That's what Threshold said actually, really friendly and knew their stuff.

Landlord sent someone else out to inspect who seemed genuinely concerned, they're going to do a camera inspection but they reckon most of the damage is confined to one side of the chimney. They'll have to seal the cracks into the bedrooms anyway so they should be able to keep one fireplace operational. Things seem to have improved now the landlord's involved and the agency can't be evasive!

ABajaninCork

The Chizler. The agent wouldn't be that well-known one beginning with 'C' would it? They are notorious for this sort of thing. I'd also be getting on to the Corporation and asking them to inspect the property as a matter of urgency.

allibastor

If the house has been deemed to be unsafe you should be entitled to move.

The Landlord doesn't have to make the house "as new" but if things are unsafe or unusable then you are able to leave

ABajaninCork

Gotcha. I know who you mean...

Did you call the council to check the house yet?

mikom

TheChizler wrote: »

Myself and two friends moved into an old house back in October with a 1 year lease. It's about 150 years old and a bit shabby on the inside but we took that as part of the charm. It's two floors and part of a mixed height terrace, with the fireplace on the taller shared side. Rent is fairly good and it's managed by a well known agent who I would have thought had a pretty good reputation.

We moved in and immediately made a snag list of things that we missed and wouldn't have found during the viewing, things like broken toilet handles, loose shelving, leaking shower, mostly things I'd have no problem fixing myself if they broke while we were here but should have been fixed before we moved in. Top of the list were the unswept chimneys, an archway with loose, wobbling bricks, through and through cracks in the bedroom walls up against the chimney breast, and the fact that whole bricks had fallen down the fireplace according to the previous tenant, who had called in.

After about two months we got some of these fixed, but they totally ignored the structural issues. Last Thursday the chimneys were eventually being swept and a couple of buckets of rubble came down one of them, including several whole bricks. A chimney-structural-specialist came out the next afternoon and told us that the party wall was failing, and that he could see into the neighbour's chimney. He also thought rafters were exposed. We were told to stop using the fireplaces (we had already stopped after the sweeping) and that they would contact the landlord. I predicted that the solution would be to board up the fireplaces.

Long story short I got an email this morning confirming my prediction. Remedial works to the chimneys are too expensive so they're just going to block them off. Obviously this is less than ideal! Understandable given the cost but we signed our lease based on there being two usable fireplaces. We wouldn't have moved in otherwise as a fireplace was one our requirements. I personally don't want to move out (the thought of finding a new place and moving all my stuff again makes me slightly nauseous) and would be happy with a reduction in the rent and a report from a structural engineer confirming the wall won't actually catastrophically fail (I don't think this will happen nor does anyone else I've talked to but I'd like more than a gut feeling after being told the wall was failing). Also we'd like confirmation that the neighbour's fire won't kill us.

So, going to go home and review the lease, (and put CO detectors in the bedrooms!) but as our entitlement to enjoyment of our home has been interrupted I'd feel that we'd be able leave without penalty if it came to it. Need to confirm that. The agent hasn't been great (promised the house would be cleaned before we moved in and took them 2 weeks to get around to, 2 months to address small repairs that were pre-existing to our tenancy, house advertised with an alarm which was displaying faults when we moved in and is unacknowledged, still haven't acknowledged a leak in the kitchen roof that we pointed out over a month ago, and they still haven't addressed the crumbling arch). The more I write the more I question why we're still here.

Tom Hanks?

TheChizler

allibastor wrote: »

If the house has been deemed to be unsafe you should be entitled to move.

The Landlord doesn't have to make the house "as new" but if things are unsafe or unusable then you are able to leave

That's definitely something we'll be looking into, as suggested above by bringing the council in, if nothing ends up happening in a reasonable timeframe. I'm hoping the reaction at the initial inspection was a typical builder's exaggeration, I don't believe he wouldn't have told us to get out immediately if we were in immediate danger... Apparently the road (Blackrock Road in Cork) is notorious for it and I haven't heard of any collapses yet! Still I don't want to be taking any chances when it's something potentially very serious.

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Did you call the council to check the house yet?

That's something I think we'll do if we start getting messed around by the landlord, just looking at that online there it seems that there can be quite hefty fines for them, and in fairness to them I think they only found out about any of the above this week. Of course if they just try to brush it off with with a sheet of plywood and some polyfilla we'll be taking it further.

Might ring the council anyway and at least find out what's involved!

TheChizler

mikom wrote: »

Tom Hanks?

There's a good movie to watch on the run up to Christmas! Curled up nice and toasty in front of the... oh

ABajaninCork

TheChizler wrote: »

That's definitely something we'll be looking into, as suggested above by bringing the council in, if nothing ends up happening in a reasonable timeframe. I'm hoping the reaction at the initial inspection was a typical builder's exaggeration, I don't believe he wouldn't have told us to get out immediately if we were in immediate danger... Apparently the road (Blackrock Road in Cork) is notorious for it and I haven't heard of any collapses yet! Still I don't want to be taking any chances when it's something potentially very serious.

The Blackrock Rd and Blackrock itself are notorious for subsidence (for that is what it is). From the sounds of it, I don't think your home has ever been underpinned, and that's what's causing the problems. The chimneys may well be blocked off, but that's not the end of the story. The cracks in the bedrooms will be a clue...

Whilst I don't think the house is about to fall down about your ears, I think it's time you left Dodge. I know the timing's lousy, but you should think seriously about moving. Get on to the council now, and ask for the house to be inspected.

TheChizler

ABajaninCork wrote: »

The Blackrock Rd and Blackrock itself are notorious for subsidence (for that is what it is). From the sounds of it, I don't think your home has ever been underpinned, and that's what's causing the problems. The chimneys may well be blocked off, but that's not the end of the story. The cracks in the bedrooms will be a clue...

Whilst I don't think the house is about to fall down about your ears, I think it's time you left Dodge. I know the timing's lousy, but you should think seriously about moving. Get on to the council now, and ask for the house to be inspected.

No definitely never been underpinned! There are a load of through and through cracks on walls where they butt onto exterior walls. Wish we'd noticed during the viewing.

Just to update, I should have taken your advice promptly! The agent has said we'd be better off moving on, landlord isn't going to fix it anytime soon and the official report says the house is structurally unsafe... Was planning on going home for Christmas anyway but I might be staying there at this rate. If we're definitely going I'll hold off on informing the council until we're gone as I don't want to burn any bridges before I have to, who knows, they might compensate us something for moving.

This sucks. Finding somewhere immediately this time of year is going to be nearly impossible. And I've so much stuff! The though of moving it again after 3 months is sickening!

Will let the neighbour know for her safety. She's an old widow living alone and I feel awful breaking something worrying like this to her this time of year but she needs to know.

Cabaal

I'd also be concerned that the agency or landlord will put an unsafe house up for rent with somebody else once you leave

TheChizler

Cabaal wrote: »

I'd also be concerned that the agency or landlord will put an unsafe house up for rent with somebody else once you leave

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't think the agent would, I'd say they want out, but I don't know about the LL, so definitely going to report it once I've sorted out alternative accommodation.

I presume the agent telling us the house is unsafe is reasonable grounds for us to break the lease without penalty, I'll get threshold/PRTB to confirm but they're off until the 2nd...

Victor

ABajaninCork wrote: »

The agent wouldn't be that well-known one beginning with 'C' would it?

No speculation please.

Moderator

TheChizler

Thanks for all the replies and just want to update on how it all went down. We gave notice mid-January that we would be out by the end of the month, citing not wanting to live in a dangerous house and the fact that they were encouraging us to look for alternative accommodation. Moved out fine and they agreed to refund the last month's rent :eek:; which we accepted, after initially requesting a refund from the date in December when we originally were told the house was dangerous.

We were happy enough with that as we were expecting a long, drawn-out battle but they were decent in the end. The thing is, they're paying us back by cheque in 4 monthly installments. Not sure of their reasoning for this, I'm sure it's more convenient to them. I don't want to rock the boat and report the property to the council until we get all four, as they refused to give a guarantee of all four payments in writing. As a compromise I'm driving past the house semi-regularly and keeping an eye on Daft to make sure it's not being let out again.

The next stage of the saga however is that they're withholding the deposit until I provide proof of registering with Irish Water (which I have, by DD). At this stage I'm against this for practical reasons and in principal, as IW haven't given me any confirmation (they have over the phone but nothing written which I've requested), and besides I'm fairly sure that was never in the original rental agreement, they don't ask for any other utility. I'm not going to put much effort into entertaining that route as IW are incredibly slow for w/e reason, and I don't think the agent have the right to demand proof of anything. I'm going to refer them to IW's own website, where they say Landlords will not responsible for tenant's charges.

I was referred to a copied-and-pasted section of their Ts&Cs, which say it's necessary for them to do this, but I'm fairly sure they were inserted after one of the recent legislation changes; i.e. since we signed the lease. Waiting on an old housemate to dig out the lease to confirm. I have the option to take time off work, go into their office, pay for parking, ring IW and wait for an unknown amount of time on hold so they can confirm in person, but at this stage I'm so unsatisfied with the agent/landlord that I'm not going to accept any more of their BS.

:rant over:

cerastes

dudara wrote: »

You should be able to reassign the lease. If the landlord refuses, I believe that you can exit the lease, without penalty, as long as sufficient notice is given. (I hope I've remembered all that correctly).

No need to reassign? the OP doesnt say its a fixed term lease, therefore they could move in and a week later give the required notice, I believe 28 days at that point up till 6 months, but they should check.
Even if it was fixed term, the OP could get out on the basis that its unsafe, which they seem to be doing.

ted1 wrote: »

Ring the council and ask for the house to inspected. They will say if it's suitable to be lived in. If not then there is no problem with moving

They should and seem to have contacted the agent or landlord first, although at this stage they seem to be moving, I can never understand why not getting to the crux of a matter seems to be undermined by people willing to "go postal" without even discussing it first.

TheChizler wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies and just want to update on how it all went down. We gave notice mid-January that we would be out by the end of the month, citing not wanting to live in a dangerous house and the fact that they were encouraging us to look for alternative accommodation. Moved out fine and they agreed to refund the last month's rent :eek:; which we accepted, after initially requesting a refund from the date in December when we originally were told the house was dangerous.

We were happy enough with that as we were expecting a long, drawn-out battle but they were decent in the end. The thing is, they're paying us back by cheque in 4 monthly installments. Not sure of their reasoning for this, I'm sure it's more convenient to them. I don't want to rock the boat and report the property to the council until we get all four, as they refused to give a guarantee of all four payments in writing. As a compromise I'm driving past the house semi-regularly and keeping an eye on Daft to make sure it's not being let out again.

The next stage of the saga however is that they're withholding the deposit until I provide proof of registering with Irish Water (which I have, by DD). At this stage I'm against this for practical reasons and in principal, as IW haven't given me any confirmation (they have over the phone but nothing written which I've requested), and besides I'm fairly sure that was never in the original rental agreement, they don't ask for any other utility. I'm not going to put much effort into entertaining that route as IW are incredibly slow for w/e reason, and I don't think the agent have the right to demand proof of anything. I'm going to refer them to IW's own website, where they say Landlords will not responsible for tenant's charges.

I was referred to a copied-and-pasted section of their Ts&Cs, which say it's necessary for them to do this, but I'm fairly sure they were inserted after one of the recent legislation changes; i.e. since we signed the lease. Waiting on an old housemate to dig out the lease to confirm. I have the option to take time off work, go into their office, pay for parking, ring IW and wait for an unknown amount of time on hold so they can confirm in person, but at this stage I'm so unsatisfied with the agent/landlord that I'm not going to accept any more of their BS.

:rant over:

First off, dont rock the boat, get your money back, they agreed to a refund. I dont see how spying if the house is relet or not is a compromise or anything but a waste of your time, so long as you get your money back?
Id say leave it.
At worst if there is any issue or delay in getting your refund, which Im suprised you have even managed then maybe at that point politley but firmly suggest the council and the PRTB if they dont return it.
Frankly Im suprised you got a refund as if nothing happened in the way of harm, and you have moved on and the only concern is the moving, you should be happy to be away from the danger, fair play and all but maybe they have had second thoughts and are now not intending to return the deposit.

Whatever reason would they hold the deposit for not registering with IW?
If that has all been prior to now, then you will not have been required to register until earlier this month, given the potential for harm, Id be suggesting to them you'll stay quiet once you get your money back, whether you do or not after is your business, but to be honest once you get your money hassle free then why not, you have no obligation to follow it up. I cant see that one going down well with the PRTB, once you have paid your obligation as necessary till now, which I imagine would be minimal.
On the basis of moving out and the hazard, if they go with this one, Id be saying you would have no option but to proceed with the PRTB unless its resolved promptly, they may be waiting on a new tenant to provide their deposit to pass on to you? or maybe they hope by biding their time you will go away?

You may want to check, their may be a time limit to lodge a complaint with the PRTB , but I believe that is to do with receiving notice and not submitting it, or for deposits not returned, look into that to ensure they arent waiting you out till you cant make a complaint, I suspect this isnt the case but its worth looking up.

TheChizler

cerastes wrote: »

Even if it was fixed term, the OP could get out on the basis that its unsafe, which they seem to be doing.

Sorry should have said, 1 year fixed term, but I think that's effectively been waived on both sides!

First off, dont rock the boat, get your money back, they agreed to a refund. I dont see how spying if the house is relet or not is a compromise or anything but a waste of your time, so long as you get your money back?
Id say leave it.

My only reason for 'spying' on the house (it's on my commute!) is out of concern for any new tenants they might put in there unaware of the structural issues. I very much doubt the agent would be party to this though, but I'd prefer to report it as I wouldn't feel comfortable unless I knew that they had some obligation to sort the issues before letting it out again.

At worst if there is any issue or delay in getting your refund, which Im suprised you have even managed then maybe at that point politley but firmly suggest the council and the PRTB if they dont return it.
Frankly Im suprised you got a refund as if nothing happened in the way of harm, and you have moved on and the only concern is the moving, you should be happy to be away from the danger, fair play and all but maybe they have had second thoughts and are now not intending to return the deposit.

Well the advice we got from Threshold was that we would be entitled to some partial refund due to the loss of facilities, namely the two fireplaces. They also strongly hinted that if it came to a PRTB hearing, we'd be likely to get some compensation for the hassle of moving early/the LL failing to put us up in alternative accommodation once they discovered the scale of the issues, and also having to take time off work to meet, and the loss of enjoyment of our home to numerous contractors coming in to assess the problems. Don't get us wrong we're delighted we got that offer without much fuss, so we're not questioning the staggered payments on that basis.

Whatever reason would they hold the deposit for not registering with IW?
If that has all been prior to now, then you will not have been required to register until earlier this month, given the potential for harm, Id be suggesting to them you'll stay quiet once you get your money back, whether you do or not after is your business, but to be honest once you get your money hassle free then why not, you have no obligation to follow it up. I cant see that one going down well with the PRTB, once you have paid your obligation as necessary till now, which I imagine would be minimal.

I registered back in January as we wanted to keep our part of the lease squeaky clean if it came to anything, in hindsight it would have been better to not pay and let the landlord keep it in their name and take it out of the deposit as they're now being so fussy about providing proof that I did it myself.

On the basis of moving out and the hazard, if they go with this one, Id be saying you would have no option but to proceed with the PRTB unless its resolved promptly, they may be waiting on a new tenant to provide their deposit to pass on to you? or maybe they hope by biding their time you will go away?

I certainly hope not! What's a standard timeframe for returning deposits? Our previous landlord returned it the next working day, it's been two weeks now with this crowd. I'll go over the lease with a fine tooth comb before going back to them, and if necessary go to the PRTB.

You may want to check, their may be a time limit to lodge a complaint with the PRTB , but I believe that is to do with receiving notice and not submitting it, or for deposits not returned, look into that to ensure they arent waiting you out till you cant make a complaint, I suspect this isnt the case but its worth looking up.

Thanks for this! I'd read that before but forgotten, I'll look that up there.