Interesting day for Palestine

Rhys Essien

1.Hamas taken off the EU terror list.

2.EU parliament have just voted in principle to recognize Palestine.

3.Draft resolution on Palestinian Statehood to be tabled later at the UN in New York.

4.Also today,a rare meeting in Switzerland to discuss the Geneva Conventions on human rights in Gaza and the West Bank.

Wakey Wakey time for Israel.Enough is enough.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/17/hamas-taken-off-eu-terror-blacklist

http://rt.com/news/215227-eu-recognize-palestine-state/

Manach

Three of the four points are reasonable and should be part of bringing a measure of stability to the region.

However, based on news reports of the time, Hamas is by its nature an organisation that relies on large measure of fear and intimidation on their fellow citizens. This applies to their actions against Palestinian Authority and that of people in the West Bank. that have been suspected of in some opposing their military actions. Thus for the EU to hold they are do not belong to such a list does not seem a wise move.

Rhys Essien

Its a bit unusual that these 4 things were all timed for the same day.Its like the world is saying to Israel that the game is up,no more will be tolerated.

Sufa

I must say it is at best a misguided move, and at worst a prominent example of the weak and feeble nature of the EU.

"Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land" - Khaled Meshaal, Leader of Hamas December 2012.

"Anyone who has a knife, a weapon or a car and is not attacking a settler or a jew, and is not killing tens of zionists, does not belong in Palestine." - Hamas spokesperson, July 2014.

"Stabbings are a welcome step in the right direction. We call all of the Palestinian people to carry out more attacks to liberate Palestine" - Former Hamas commander, November 2014.

And it goes on, and on. They implore Palestinians to murder and main ordinary Israelis using wicked, barbaric terrorist techniques, and what do the people apparently representing this continent do? Not only do they placate and appease the terrorists, they offer encouragement to do more with this move. Illogical, and shows the world exactly what they think of the Israelis as a people.

And that is without even mentioning Hamas treatment of homosexuals, or people they arbitrarily believe to be "traitors", the use of civilian buildings to store and fire weapons at civilians in Israel etc. Not only do they attempt to terrorise the people of Israel, they terrorise the people of Gaza. Like I said, I just can't understand the reasoning.

Rhys Essien

@Sufa

What are your views on points 2,3,and 4?

Awkward Badger

Sufa wrote: »

I must say it is at best a misguided move, and at worst a prominent example of the weak and feeble nature of the EU.

"Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land" - Khaled Meshaal, Leader of Hamas December 2012.

"Anyone who has a knife, a weapon or a car and is not attacking a settler or a jew, and is not killing tens of zionists, does not belong in Palestine." - Hamas spokesperson, July 2014.

"Stabbings are a welcome step in the right direction. We call all of the Palestinian people to carry out more attacks to liberate Palestine" - Former Hamas commander, November 2014.

And it goes on, and on. They implore Palestinians to murder and main ordinary Israelis using wicked, barbaric terrorist techniques, and what do the people apparently representing this continent do? Not only do they placate and appease the terrorists, they offer encouragement to do more with this move. Illogical, and shows the world exactly what they think of the Israelis as a people.

And that is without even mentioning Hamas treatment of homosexuals, or people they arbitrarily believe to be "traitors", the use of civilian buildings to store and fire weapons at civilians in Israel etc. Not only do they attempt to terrorise the people of Israel, they terrorise the people of Gaza. Like I said, I just can't understand the reasoning.

The reason Hamas was taken off the list was down to flaws in the original listing.

The judgment on Hamas followed the decision by the general court of the European Union court – the EU’s second highest court – that the original listing of the group that governs Gaza had been flawed and based on conclusions derived from the media and internet, not sound legal rulings.

The court added in a statement that Wednesday’s decision to remove Hamas from the EU’s blacklist was based on procedural errors and did “not imply any substantive assessment of the question of the classification of Hamas as a terrorist group”.

Nodin

Sufa wrote: »

I must say it is at (..........)reasoning.

Given the violence of the 50 year occupation and colonisation of the Palestinian territories, pointing the finger at Hamas and declaring them somehow more worthy of censure than the Israeli state is laughable.

Sufa

Nodin wrote: »

Given the violence of the 50 year occupation and colonisation of the Palestinian territories, pointing the finger at Hamas and declaring them somehow more worthy of censure than the Israeli state is laughable.

No word on the actual content of my post then? No word on Hamas-orchestrated suicide bombings, knife and gun attacks, rocket and mortar attacks, celebrations of successful attacks on Israeli civilians, Hamas incitement to commit murder against Israeli civilians, the teaching of hatred and violence to children?

Ok then.

GarIT

Nodin wrote: »

Given the violence of the 50 year occupation and colonisation of the Palestinian territories, pointing the finger at Hamas and declaring them somehow more worthy of censure than the Israeli state is laughable.

One side being terrorists doesn't stop the other side from being terrorists too.

Sufa

Rhys Essien wrote: »

@Sufa

What are your views on points 2,3,and 4?

Well on one of your main points, I think the lack of coherence and unity in the EU's foreign policy means that such declarations by it are essentially worthless.

Nodin

Sufa wrote: »

No word on the actual content of my post then? No word on Hamas-orchestrated suicide bombings, knife and gun attacks, rocket and mortar attacks, celebrations of successful attacks on Israeli civilians, Hamas incitement to commit murder against Israeli civilians, the teaching of hatred and violence to children?

Ok then.

As long as violence is carried out against military targets, its entirely justified in the light of the occupation, all other routes having been blocked.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

As long as violence is carried out against military targets, its entirely justified in the light of the occupation, all other routes having been blocked.

Yeah, and we well know that Hamas only targets military installations...
Orwell would be proud of you.

DarkyHughes

Sufa wrote: »

I must say it is at best a misguided move, and at worst a prominent example of the weak and feeble nature of the EU.

"Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land" - Khaled Meshaal, Leader of Hamas December 2012.

"Anyone who has a knife, a weapon or a car and is not attacking a settler or a jew, and is not killing tens of zionists, does not belong in Palestine." - Hamas spokesperson, July 2014.

"Stabbings are a welcome step in the right direction. We call all of the Palestinian people to carry out more attacks to liberate Palestine" - Former Hamas commander, November 2014.

And it goes on, and on. They implore Palestinians to murder and main ordinary Israelis using wicked, barbaric terrorist techniques, and what do the people apparently representing this continent do? Not only do they placate and appease the terrorists, they offer encouragement to do more with this move. Illogical, and shows the world exactly what they think of the Israelis as a people.

And that is without even mentioning Hamas treatment of homosexuals, or people they arbitrarily believe to be "traitors", the use of civilian buildings to store and fire weapons at civilians in Israel etc. Not only do they attempt to terrorise the people of Israel, they terrorise the people of Gaza. Like I said, I just can't understand the reasoning.

Lots of empty rhetoric. While Israel has killed 1000's of Palestinians. It's very much the other way around, the EU are showing they have some balls.

DarkyHughes

Sufa wrote: »

No word on the actual content of my post then? No word on Hamas-orchestrated suicide bombings, knife and gun attacks, rocket and mortar attacks, celebrations of successful attacks on Israeli civilians, Hamas incitement to commit murder against Israeli civilians, the teaching of hatred and violence to children?

Ok then.

So I can just kill your whole family, move into your house, tell you to p!ss off 7 you won't mind? Great!..

gormdubhgorm

People might be interested in this book it shows the evolution of how Ireland interacted with Palestine and Israel over the years.

Ireland and the Palestine Question 1948-2004 by Rory Miller

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ireland-Palestine-Question-1948-2004-Shatter/dp/0716533499

hatrickpatrick

Personally I'm worried about how much the resolution will have had to be watered down in order to avoid a US veto. It's almost certain not to actually call for Israel to GTFO of the lands it is illegally colonizing now.

It would be purely symbolic, but in my view highly significant if they could get enough votes for a proper resolution that the US was forced to use its veto. The US seems terrified of international isolation over the Israel issue, personally I feel that would send a message. I'm no trained diplomat though

One thing I find highly amusing is that the US and Israel are so insistent on the Palestinians not joining the ICC. Neither is a party to it and they have repeatedly stated that (a) what they're doing is not illegal and that (b) since they aren't parties, the court can't sanction them. So what are they worried about? The argument makes no sense and IMO clearly proves that the court can inflict serious damage on Israel's diplomacy machine. Specifically, parties to the Rome Treaty would be obliged to hand officials charged by the court, over to the court. This would massively impede the Israeli government's ability to do business abroad. You can't hold talks entirely through Skype all the time.

Would be a nice turning of the tables for all the times when Israel restricted everyone from academics to politicians from leaving the Gaza Strip, wouldn't it?

Honestly, their objections have a serious air of "I'm not doing anything wrong here, but FFS don't call the teacher over..."

Nodin

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Personally I'm worried about how much the resolution will have had to be watered down in order to avoid a US veto. It's almost certain not to actually call for Israel to GTFO of the lands it is illegally colonizing now....

Going on past efforts, something of this nature will be vetoed regardless.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It would be purely symbolic, but in my view highly significant if they could get enough votes for a proper resolution that the US was forced to use its veto. The US seems terrified of international isolation over the Israel issue, personally I feel that would send a message. I'm no trained diplomat though
....

The US is largely isolated on the issue and has been for some time. However being a superpower means you don't have to care.

1123heavy

Well it was backed by our government (rightfully so in my opinion). It's now been rejected by the UNSC, mainly due to rejections by the USA, Australia and Canada and abstentions by nations such as the UK.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/un-votes-against-palestinian-statehood-20141230212147910509.html

How these countries can say they're after equal rights and peace while rejecting the Palestinians their right to a state (opening them to regular massacres) is beyond me.

What are your thoughts ?

Nodin

The US and Australia voted against.

man98

America are in bed with Israel unfortunately, and are probably the main reason that this dispute is so out of hand...

nokia69

1123heavy wrote: »

What are your thoughts ?

just what the world needs another failed arab state

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Duiske

1123heavy wrote: »

Well it was backed by our government (rightfully so in my opinion). It's now been rejected by the UNSC, mainly due to abstentions by the USA, Australia and Canada.

This UNSC vote was never going to be passed. The US made it perfectly clear from the start of this process that if it was passed, they would just veto it.

SpaceSasqwatch

Duiske wrote: »

This UNSC vote was never going to be passed. The US made it perfectly clear from the start of this process that if it was passed, they would just veto it.

And there are new members joining the council soon(cant remember when) and Palestine would of had a favourable vote then but again Israels big brother would of veteo'd it anyway..

p1akuw47h5r3it

Is that it then? What other options are open to the Palestinians?

For Reals

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Is that it then? What other options are open to the Palestinians?

I would hope on a nation by nation basis, those who backed it would still recognise it. The UN scolded Israel for human rights violations, which didn't amount to anything of note so I don't see why this should.

p1akuw47h5r3it

For Reals wrote: »

I would hope on a nation by nation basis, those who backed it would still recognise it. The UN scolded Israel for human rights violations, which didn't amount to anything of note so I don't see why this should.

This may be a naive question, but anyway! What exactly, or who, determines if a country is a country. I understand individual countries can recognize other countries, but is there a legal body that eventual decides?

pablo128

1123heavy wrote: »

How these countries can say they're after equal rights and peace while rejecting the Palestinians their right to a state (opening them to regular massacres) is beyond me.

Oil.

hatrickpatrick

The resolution failed to get enough votes to force a UN veto. They were one short.

Why the hell didn't they wait until the membership change in a few days? They would have been almost certain to get enough votes then

1123heavy

I made a mistake, I meant to say they "rejections" instead of "abstentions"

I do agree that America is in bed with Israel, I just find it extraordinary that such oppression is being dished out to the Palestinian people and the nations that take pride in their so called freedom reject the freedom of others.

1123heavy

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Is that it then? What other options are open to the Palestinians?

Unfortunately there are none. It's back to the so called negotiations with Israel and the USA, which pretty much consists of them being pressured to give more land and give up more rights ... or else they're threatened with an Israeli walkout which usually leads to more oppression. This vicious circle has been going on for far too long.

wes

No big surprise, the US managed to not have to use there veto, but I honestly don't see how that is any kind of victory for them. The best that the managed to do was to get other states to abstain.

It is interesting to note that 2 colonial states basically defend another colonial state by voting against the resolution.......

The PA have joined the ICC, and of course the US and Israel are against that as well, but if Israel is doing nothing wrong, then they surely have nothing to fear.......

1123heavy

The PA have joined the ICC, and of course the US and Israel are against that as well, but if Israel is doing nothing wrong, then they surely have nothing to fear.......

True, but unfortunately even if crimes were ti be investigated by the ICC, it is extremely unlikely they will be able to take any sort of effective action against Israel. The UN is proving itself to be very similar to the League of Nations, nothing more than a paper tiger.

Sand

The resolution was ridiculous. Sounded like something the local students union came up with ... a peace deal in 12 months? Sure, no problem.

And that was the most realistic proposal. Embarrassing for all concerned and demeaning for the UN that it ever got to a vote.

wes

1123heavy wrote: »

True, but unfortunately even if crimes were ti be investigated by the ICC, it is extremely unlikely they will be able to take any sort of effective action against Israel.

Yes, that is true, but seeing as Israel are so dead set against it, it will still have negative implications for them if there found guilty.

JRant

wes wrote: »

Yes, that is true, but seeing as Israel are so dead set against it, it will still have negative implications for them if there found guilty.

Not really. As long as America keeps funding Isreal. Isreal keep buying arms from them. The arms industry keep paying super lobbists to push their agenda and the whole circle continues then it matters not one jot what the ICC, UNSC or anyone else thinks.

Isreal only dance to one tune and that's what the US tell them it is.

Manach

On the plus side for Palestine, they are now signed up to the International Criminal Court as per http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30645462 .

Nodin

Manach wrote: »

On the plus side for Palestine, they are now signed up to the International Criminal Court as per http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30645462 .

Rather optimistic. The ICC can make all the decisions it wants against Israel, but has no real means to enforce them.

Fr Tod Umptious

Honest question.

If the PA join the ICC does that mean that they too, i.e. Hamas, could be brought before the ICC for their actions against Israel ?

Nodin

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Honest question.

If the PA join the ICC does that mean that they too, i.e. Hamas, could be brought before the ICC for their actions against Israel ?

AFAIK, yes.

K-9

1123heavy wrote: »

Well it was backed by our government (rightfully so in my opinion). It's now been rejected by the UNSC, mainly due to rejections by the USA, Australia and Canada and abstentions by nations such as the UK.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/un-votes-against-palestinian-statehood-20141230212147910509.html

How these countries can say they're after equal rights and peace while rejecting the Palestinians their right to a state (opening them to regular massacres) is beyond me.

What are your thoughts ?

Mod: Merged with similar topic.

1123heavy

If the PA join the ICC does that mean that they too, i.e. Hamas, could be brought before the ICC for their actions against Israel ?

I don't think that would be the case as the PA and Hamas are technically separate organisations.

Fr Tod Umptious

1123heavy wrote: »

I don't think that would be the case as the PA and Hamas are technically separate organisations.

Well whomever runs Palestine, that's what I am getting at.

1123heavy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well whomever runs Palestine, that's what I am getting at.

I understand you, but with regards terrorism the PA haven't an awful lot to fear, they haven't fired a bullet at Israel. Hamas on the other hand is a different kettle of fish, they aren't trying to join the ICC though

Robroy36

Rhys Essien wrote: »

1.Hamas taken off the EU terror list.

2.EU parliament have just voted in principle to recognize Palestine.

3.Draft resolution on Palestinian Statehood to be tabled later at the UN in New York.

4.Also today,a rare meeting in Switzerland to discuss the Geneva Conventions on human rights in Gaza and the West Bank.

Wakey Wakey time for Israel.Enough is enough.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/17/hamas-taken-off-eu-terror-blacklist

http://rt.com/news/215227-eu-recognize-palestine-state/

It doesn't really matter what the UN say or do. Palestine is still a dangerous terrorist state and if given access to the same resources as Israel they would commit the same or perhaps worse atrocities.

Nodin

Robroy36 wrote: »

It doesn't really matter what the UN say or do. Palestine is still a dangerous terrorist state and if given access to the same resources as Israel they would commit the same or perhaps worse atrocities.

Or maybe, the reason for much of the violence having gone, they wouldn't.

Robroy36

1123heavy wrote: »

Well it was backed by our government (rightfully so in my opinion). It's now been rejected by the UNSC, mainly due to rejections by the USA, Australia and Canada and abstentions by nations such as the UK.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/un-votes-against-palestinian-statehood-20141230212147910509.html

How these countries can say they're after equal rights and peace while rejecting the Palestinians their right to a state (opening them to regular massacres) is beyond me.

What are your thoughts ?

Very happy with that outcome. Any state that votes in an organisation like Hamas deserves zero respect.

1123heavy

Robroy36 wrote: »

It doesn't really matter what the UN say or do. Palestine is still a dangerous terrorist state and if given access to the same resources as Israel they would commit the same or perhaps worse atrocities.

Have you witnessed how the Palestinians have to struggle through daily life ? border checkpoints, stripped naked and humiliated on a daily basis to get to school/work ? Have you witnessed how entire neighborhoods are told to leave and replaced with Jewish settlers ? farmers having their land stolen by the Israeli government on a daily basis ? Gazans being massacred with nowhere to hide on what is becoming a yearly basis ? entire families wiped out ? 4 kids running along a beach wiped out with an F-16 missile ?

But no ... the Palestinians are the "terrorists" ...

Robroy36

Nodin wrote: »

Or maybe, the reason for much of the violence having gone, they wouldn't.

Thankfully, for our Israeli friends, we'll probably never know.

1123heavy

Robroy36 wrote: »

Thankfully, for our Israeli friends, we'll probably never know.

Israel are no friends of ours.

Very happy with that outcome. Any state that votes in an organisation like Hamas deserves zero respect

The resolution was for the PA and the West Bank, what has Hamas got to do with this

Robroy36

1123heavy wrote: »

...the Palestinians are the "terrorists" ...

Not all of them, a lot of them are not.

A sizeable proportion are or openly support Hamas.

Cannot be too careful. I support Israel to the hilt.