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Clinicaly dead pregnant woman on life support

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    #782
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Seven medical consultants all agree that this should proceed no more
    :confused:
    Still the unborn has a right to life. Seven doctors might agree a raped 14 year old should have an abortion but abortion in Ireland is a legal not a medical matter.


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    #783
    Annabella1
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭Annabella1


    lazygal wrote: »
    Still the unborn has a right to life. Seven doctors might agree a raped 14 year old should have an abortion but abortion in Ireland is a legal not a medical matter.

    Are you suggesting the two are comparable?
    :eek:


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    #784
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    volchitsa wrote: »
    It doesn't matter that you have changed your mind, what matters is what the 8th amendment says. And it says that the fetus cannot be destroyed no matter how small its chances of being healthy.

    I know that. We live in a democracy so until there is another vote that's the facts.


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    #785
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    lazygal wrote: »
    Still the unborn has a right to life. Seven doctors might agree a raped 14 year old should have an abortion but abortion in Ireland is a legal not a medical matter.

    I have to say I wouldn't be one of those judges for all the tea in china.


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    #786
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Are you suggesting the two are comparable?
    :eek:

    That was the case in the X case many years ago


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    #787
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Are you suggesting the two are comparable?
    :eek:

    Yes abortion is a legal matter, no matter what the clinical opinion of a doctor in Ireland is. No matter what the circumstances of pregnancy are if a woman's life is not at risk the foetus has the right to life.


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    #788
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,371 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Are you suggesting the two are comparable?
    :eek:
    The situations are not comparable but the prioritisation of the unborn over the born certainly is. It appears that this woman may have been refused a CAT scan in order to protect her fetus.


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    #789
    Annabella1
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭Annabella1


    Stheno wrote: »
    That was the case in the X case many years ago


    Zero comparison to this


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    #790
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuO3FhA3PWc


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    #791
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,371 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    professore wrote: »
    I know that. We live in a democracy so until there is another vote that's the facts.

    And should a democracy really micromanage the most personal parts of people's lives in this way? Ireland's more like Saudi Arabia in that way than like any real democracy.


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    #792
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Zero comparison to this

    In both cases the woman and child involved were taken to court to decide what should happen to their bodies. Rather than doctors having the final say.


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    #793
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Seven medical consultants all agree that this should proceed no more
    :confused:
    lazygal wrote: »
    Still the unborn has a right to life. Seven doctors might agree a raped 14 year old should have an abortion but abortion in Ireland is a legal not a medical matter.

    This is a rough education for some people about what the 8th amendment means in reality.

    I'm sorry for people who are only getting the wake up call now, because for the likes of me and the other women and health professionals posting here who are all of a certain age or have educated themselves about this, we at least knew how sick it could all become.

    Back in 1983 when the amendment was rail-roaded through by a conglomerate of powerful Catholic lobby groups and a Daíl that didn't know which way was up after 3 successive governments in 18 months and a people who had never thought that the church could be wrong on anything, this was predicted by many doctors and lawyers. Every human tragedy that the 8th has allowed was predicted, but it was the amendment to beat all. It was the one that would make sure there would never be abortion in Ireland, and so there isn't and there can't be. It worked, and we have an alphabet of women, Savita and a dead woman who tried and failed to beat it.

    When will it ever end? When people get educated, and this is a harsh education.


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    #794
    Annabella1
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭Annabella1


    Is there seriously anybody on this thread who feels that this tragically dead lady be kept on a ventilator for another 2 months given the deterioration seen already?


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    #795
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Zero comparison to this

    The child was a ward of court, suicidal, as a result of rape, and after asking for legal advice on using the aborted childs tissue as evidence to prosecute the rapist, ended up in the supreme court.

    She eventually miscarried, as will probably be the case with the current case, or the foetus will die due to the illness of it's mother, but was still subjected to being treated as an incubator while the law took due process.

    What do you see as being different?


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    #796
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Is there seriously anybody on this thread who feels that this tragically dead lady be kept on a ventilator for another 2 months given the deterioration seen already?

    It's not about how we feel. If there is a chance the foetus can survive the law here says that right must be vindicated regardless of anyone's feelings including the woman involved.


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    #797
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Is there seriously anybody on this thread who feels that this tragically dead lady be kept on a ventilator for another 2 months given the deterioration seen already?

    There was plenty here yesterday shouting down those of us who thought the woman and foetus should be let die in accordance with the family's wishes.


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    #798
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Its terrible that only men have total autonomy over their own bodies in this country.


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    #799
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    mrbike wrote: »
    This says it all really:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/scale-of-tragedy-depth-of-distress-too-big-to-process-1.2048031

    Doctors were sitting down trying to figure out the 8th amendment. They weren't sure about the legal standing. Then they had to explain to the family why they couldn't switch off the life support...

    I wasn't going to post here again, but that article sums it up. Horrifying. And this is allowed to continue in a modern society. I'm absolutely shocked beyond words.


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    #800
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Is there seriously anybody on this thread who feels that this tragically dead lady be kept on a ventilator for another 2 months given the deterioration seen already?
    lazygal wrote: »
    It's not about how we feel. If there is a chance the foetus can survive the law here says that right must be vindicated regardless of anyone's feelings including the woman involved.

    Precisely, hard to see how the High Court can say otherwise, unless it's on the point that the eight amendment does not apply

    I can see this heading to the Supreme Court, and more emergency legislation


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    #801
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    Stheno wrote: »
    That article is probably one of the worst to read due to the sheer confusion and raw emotion it conveys.

    .


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    #802
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Bongalongherb wrote: »
    If the facts frighten you then you should cease talking garbage. Your comment is null & void regarding this issue because the facts speak for themselves.

    Pretty sure you've picked up what they've posted completely the wrong way. I've not noticed any garbage being talked this evening at all, by anyone. Your comment is a bit strong though IMO.


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    #803
    bogwalrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭bogwalrus


    Shrap wrote: »
    There was plenty here yesterday shouting down those of us who thought the woman and foetus should be let die in accordance with the family's wishes.

    That's not true.

    People feel strongly about a fetuses right to life and expressed that feeling even though they were not aware of the true medical circumstances about her condition.

    I would say very very few people would want a woman kept on life support in this particular case.

    However it does not mean people are wrong about expressing their concern about the fetuses right to life.


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    #804
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Bongalongherb wrote: »
    If the facts frighten you then you should cease talking garbage. Your comment is null & void regarding this issue because the facts speak for themselves.
    Shrap wrote: »
    Pretty sure you've picked up what they've posted completely the wrong way. I've not noticed any garbage being talked this evening at all, by anyone. Your comment is a bit strong though IMO.

    Yup think you've picked it up the wrong way, I've been in courts a few times and the reading of that article made it clear this is being treated with extreme seriousness. It was the testimony of the medical staff about being unsure how to proceed and deal with the family that I particularly found upsetting.


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    #805
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    Shrap wrote: »
    Pretty sure you've picked up what they've posted completely the wrong way. I've not noticed any garbage being talked this evening at all, by anyone. Your comment is a bit strong though IMO.
    Edited regarding an error on my behalf, apologies.

    Stheno
    Yup think you've picked it up the wrong way, I've been in courts a few times and the reading of that article made it clear this is being treated with extreme seriousness

    If that's the case then I send you my sincere apologies.


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    #806
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,371 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    bogwalrus wrote: »
    That's not true.

    People feel strongly about a fetuses right to life and expressed that feeling even though they were not aware of the true medical circumstances about her condition.

    I would say very very few people would want a woman kept on life support in this particular case.

    However it does not mean people are wrong about expressing their concern about the fetuses right to life.
    Hang on, the problem was with people expressing their "concern" about the fetus over the family's expressed wishes. What arrogance to think that they as a random poster on a forum would care more about an unknown fetus than the parents of the woman carrying it.

    There is something seriously sick in a society where people feel their views in such a case are perfectly likely to be more valid than the family's - just because they are so certain to have the moral high ground.

    That is the real problem.


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    #807
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    bogwalrus wrote: »
    That's not true.

    People feel strongly about a fetuses right to life and expressed that feeling even though they were not aware of the true medical circumstances about her condition.

    I would say very very few people would want a woman kept on life support in this particular case.

    However it does not mean people are wrong about expressing their concern about the fetuses right to life.

    They are expressing a desire for a the life of a foetus to be saved without having the imagination to find the cost of that life too high relative to the dignity of the dead woman and the feelings of her family. Excuse me while I don't feel very sorry for their lack of imagination.

    It's the same thing with people who are judgemental about abortion. Their imagination extends only as far as the cute baby that could be loved or adopted by others, never of the life of the woman.

    Please read my post number 744 for more on this.


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    #808
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    bogwalrus wrote: »
    That's not true.

    People feel strongly about a fetuses right to life and expressed that feeling even though they were not aware of the true medical circumstances about her condition.

    I would say very very few people would want a woman kept on life support in this particular case.

    However it does not mean people are wrong about expressing their concern about the fetuses right to life.

    In this particular case though, how much more do the family endure in the hope that a normal healthy child is delivered?

    And more broadly, how much longer do we have to see Ireland in the international press year after year due to our badly written constitution which causes cases like this again and again?

    And even worse, how many more families will have to suffer due to gray laws which leave medics confused and families having to find the resources to mount high court challenges?


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    #809
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    I don't blame anyone here for their comments as this is a very powerful debate regarding this situation. We're all only human at the end of the day. I admire the compassion forwarded here in after-hours. Whatever our disagreements are I just hope the right decision is made.


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    #810
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    [QUOTE=Bongalongherb;93558083 Whatever our disagreements are I just hope the right decision is made.[/QUOTE]

    I fear that the High Court will be constrained in their decision making ability and we will see more of a quagmire developing with this poor family having to endure it.

    Multiple medical professionals today stated that the foetus is currently healthy, so according to the eight, it has a right to life.

    The court may rule that gestational age negates that but it's questionnable imo


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    #811
    bogwalrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭bogwalrus


    Stheno wrote: »
    In this particular case though, how much more do the family endure in the hope that a normal healthy child is delivered?

    And more broadly, how much longer do we have to see Ireland in the international press year after year due to our badly written constitution which causes cases like this again and again?

    And even worse, how many more families will have to suffer due to gray laws which leave medics confused and families having to find the resources to mount high court challenges?

    Would you agree then that the decision is more of the medical experts decision to pull the plug?

    As in they advise the family that there is no chance the fetus will survive and the parents either agree or disagree with the doctors advice.

    I mean if the parents wanted to keep their daughter on life support with the hope of the fetus surviving would the doctors actually let them?


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