Clinicaly dead pregnant woman on life support

Grayson

conorh91 wrote: »

In fairness to conorhal (and I should say, although nobody asked, it's a coincidence that he and I have similar names), Dr Boylan is appearing as an expert witness for the family in the case.

You are fcuking with my head more than this case is. :P

amdublin

While this woman's deterioration (i.e. her brain is rotting etc) is changing some people's minds.

And while that is horrendous. For me though it is not the point.

whether this lady is deteriorating or not, had there been no baby in her body, the machines would be switched off as per the family's wishes.

She is pregnant. But dead. The family's wishes should be carried out as would be the case with a man or non pregnant woman. We are human beings not human incubators. A woman's death should not be ignored because of a foetus.

Grayson

lazygal wrote: »

Ethics, like clinical judgment, have no place in the abortion law in Ireland. I don't think it's ethical to expect that suicidal 14 year old rape victims should remain pregnant but the law says otherwise.

Well then ethics do have a place :P

the ethical thing under pretty much every ethical standard is to cut off life support.

ivytwine

I would usually avoid these kind of threads, they always descend into ****storms.

However the details of this case are so horrific I just wanted to post somewhere. I found it hard to sleep last night just thinking about those little kids going into see their mother in the condition she's in. It's so bloody ghoulish, like something out of a Stephen King novel.

If there was ever a time to take a sharp look at ourselves at a nation...

kylith

Hollister11 wrote: »

Feel sorry for the family of course, but if the baby can keep growing and be kept alive the body should be kept on life support, regardless of what he family want.

Just in case you didn't read the independent report:

There is a hole in her skull through which her brain can be seen. There has been no blood flow in the brain for about 2 weeks - it is literally rotten and infected with fungus. It cannot regulate hormones as necessary in pregnancy for the foetus' development.

She has so many infections that they don't know where they are all coming from.

She is being pumped full of a cocktail of drugs to try to stop the infections, practically none of which are safe for use when pregnant.

She has a fever of 38-39, a temperature high enough to cause brain damage to the foetus.

It is a case of when, not if, the machines will no longer be able to keep her heart pumping.

And on top of that, who knows how long the foetus may have been starved of oxygen when she initially died.

Do you really think there is any chance of a normal baby being born? The odds of even making it to a stage where it could be delivered and not immediately die are very slim.

---

I think I heard, but can anyone confirm, that she was refused a scan when she went to hospital with severe headaches. Is this true?

Qualitymark

Poor family. What a Christmas.

YFlyer

Surely the foetus wouldn't be getting any nutrients from its dead mother.

bogwalrus

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Not directed directly at you, but isn't this a major part of the problem?

Yes it is. That is what happens in a non secular democracy where we are still hungover from years of religious institutionalisation. People impose their way of life on everyone else.

It always throws a spanner into any discussion.

Anyway I am well up for debating some of the issues this has raised both legally and ethically as I have plenty of questions still in me but maybe that can be done in a separate thread not on ah so I might do that after Christmas.

MrPudding

kylith wrote: »

J

I think I heard, but can anyone confirm, that she was refused a scan when she went to hospital with severe headaches. Is this true?

According to the reports, this is the case.

Qualitymark wrote: »

Poor family. What a Christmas.

Yes, unimaginable. Sitting on Christmas Day and the only thing you can think of is whether the High Court is going to allow your daughter to die* with dignity and for you to be able to bury her over three weeks after you should have. Merry fcuking Christmas.

MrP


* Clearly she is already dead, but you know what I mean.

MrPudding

YFlyer wrote: »

Surely the foetus wouldn't be getting any nutrients from its dead mother.

They are pumping nutrients, amongst other things, into the body.

MrP

ebbsy

My bother in law had his life support turned off with our consent, should people be allowed to suffer like this ?

I d'ont think they should.

Qualitymark

Well, I didn't just mean this Christmas. Every Christmas after this will have such memories.

P_1

Good grief this is some bloody mess. The woman's body is decomposing for crying out loud. Now I'm no medical expert but I thought that a decomposing body carries massive infection risks, surely there's little chance of the foetus either surviving or having any quality of life whatsoever.

Immediate solution, just let the poor woman die.

Long term solution, our politicians need to grow a spine, fix the mess that is the 8th Amendment and let the people have their say on it.

blacklilly

Sala wrote: »

But, the tone has changed on this thread and that, in my opinion, is rare in regard to anything to do with the 8th amendment. Usually the arguments go around and around- today we have seen people change their position, or just opt out.

What's important to remember is that this case is not about abortion, it's not about pro-life or pro-choice.

The crux of the matter is that this unborn child is was not and is not viabile outside the womb of it's deceased mother. The unborn should have died very soon after it's mother passed.

I am angry that this womans family have to see her body deteriorate, have to listen to evidence of the process of deterioration and have to put their grieving on hold. It must be utterly confusing and distressing for them to try and come to terms with what is happening.

kylith

YFlyer wrote: »

Surely the foetus wouldn't be getting any nutrients from its dead mother.

If she's being fed through a drip then there shouldn't be any reason that nutrients can't pass through the placenta.

MrPudding

kylith wrote: »

If she's being fed through a drip then there shouldn't be any reason that nutrients can't pass through the placenta.

Along with, presumably, infection, various toxins as well as the medication, drugs and hormones that are being pumped into the body to try to slow down the rate of decomposition.

MrP

kylith

MrPudding wrote: »

Along with, presumably, infection, various toxins as well as the medication, drugs and hormones that are being pumped into the body to try to slow down the rate of decomposition.

MrP

Yup.

volchitsa

blacklilly wrote: »

What's important to remember is that this case is not about abortion, it's not about pro-life or pro-choice.

Agreed it's not about pro-choice, but do you accept that it is about the 8th amendment, and that this was entirely at the instigation of the self styled "pro-life" movement?

Frigga_92

This is a disgusting situation for that family to be in. When their daughter died, that should've been the end of her life and the end of the development of the foetus.
Their lives will never be the same, they haven't even had a chance to grieve yet, will they ever get over being put through this?
I don't know what age her other children are but it must be an extremely confusing time for them, seeing their mother being kept alive, wondering if there will be another outcome other than what they thought would happen when their mother died.
It'll be so difficult for the family to let go after being kept hanging on for so long.

This should have been handled the same way as if the woman wasn't pregnant.

blacklilly

volchitsa wrote: »

Agreed it's not about pro-choice, but do you accept that it is about the 8th amendment, and that this was entirely at the instigation of the self styled "pro-life" movement?

I'm not going to be drawn into an discussion about pro-life or pro-choice for that matter.

It is obvious that this situation has arisen due to the current legistlation in place. The courts will have to decide on the matter and thereafter perhaps our Government. However it is entirely impossible to legislate for every circumstance.

My thoughts are with this family this Christmas.

mrbike

There are some more reports of the case in the Independent today.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/occupants-of-packed-courtroom-seem-to-heave-in-collective-distress-30860623.html

"The doctor treating a pregnant young mother-of-two broke down in tears when asked why he referred to her as a patient.."

This is the toll that is being taken on the family, the medical professionals and now the legal people involved.

volchitsa

blacklilly wrote: »

It is obvious that this situation has arisen due to the current legistlation in place. The courts will have to decide on the matter and thereafter perhaps our Government. However it is entirely impossible to legislate for every circumstance.

Which is why there are subjects which legislators should not even try to micromanage, particularly those which properly belong to people's private lives. The 8th amendment needs to go.

ProfessorPlum

blacklilly wrote: »

I'm not going to be drawn into an discussion about pro-life or pro-choice for that matter.

It is obvious that this situation has arisen due to the current legistlation in place. The courts will have to decide on the matter and thereafter perhaps our Government. However it is entirely impossible to legislate for every circumstance.

My thoughts are with this family this Christmas.

This case has nothing whatsoever to do with any legislation. It is because of a constitutional amendment that was put in place to try to 'micromanage' certain situations. Failed miserably.

eviltwin

The entire thing is a disgrace. The family want life support turned off, the medical team want life support turned off. All this heartache and suffering for a foetus that doesn't have much chance of survival. An unborn child trumps everyone else in this country it seems. Its just ridiculous. My heart goes out to that family and that poor woman whose dignity in death has been destroyed. It should never have been allowed to get this far.

mikom

Pro-life................. Pro-choice.

This woman has neither.

Cantremember

eviltwin wrote: »

The entire thing is a disgrace. The family want life support turned off, the medical team want life support turned off. All this heartache and suffering for a foetus that doesn't have much chance of survival. An unborn child trumps everyone else in this country it seems. Its just ridiculous. My heart goes out to that family and that poor woman whose dignity in death has been destroyed. It should never have been allowed to get this far.

If we are ever to grow up as a nation we need to face this squarely: this isn't about a foetus, it's about a primitive view of life from a religion that we wrote into our laws. It's about thinking that God people have some special knowledge about our humanity and following them. All religions are based in that same belief and no self respecting rational state can allow sharia or theocracy of any sort to influence public rules and public life.

Grayson

volchitsa wrote: »

Agreed it's not about pro-choice, but do you accept that it is about the 8th amendment, and that this was entirely at the instigation of the self styled "pro-life" movement?

It is about prochoice/pro life though. the crux of the difference between the two is whether or not a foetus/embryo is a human being with the rights of an adult.

Pro lifers see this as switching off the life support on two people.

The thing is that although Ireland is still very conservative in this area, most people have a middle of the road opinion. A lot of people who would say they are pro life are actually in favour of a termination when the womans life is in danger or in cases of rape. Even though they would not be in favour of it being on demand.

The number of people who are pro life in every possible situation are actually very few. They're the guys who are in youth defence and precious life. They stand outside clinics screaming at people and won't discuss their beliefs. They simply try to shout down the opposition.

The vast majority of people in this country are in favour of liberalising the current laws to allow them for flexibility.

Now if our politicians could develop some backbone and actually confront them it'd be great.

osarusan

Conor Dignam SC, representing the interests of the woman’s unborn child, was making legal submissions at the close of a hearing to determine whether the somatic treatment being afforded to the woman may be stopped.

I was wondering - who hired this barrsister? I mean, where did he come from?

Family, partner, HSE on one side - who is the other side?

Raging_Ninja

osarusan wrote: »

I was wondering - who hired this barrsister? I mean, where did he come from?

Family, partner, HSE on one side - who is the other side?

Could be court-appointed.

mrbike

osarusan wrote: »

I was wondering - who hired this barrsister? I mean, where did he come from?

Family, partner, HSE on one side - who is the other side?

Good question. The attorney general's office? It's their job to enforce the constitution.