Bandit stories

cgh

I played with a Bandit yesterday.....

he kept calling me gringo all through the round....

DiegoWorst

Russman wrote: »

This ^^^^, a thousand times this !!!

The reality is that out of a field of 120 players, chances are someone is going to play well above themselves. It's not nearly as sinister as people like to think.

No its not as sinister. There are a small number of golfers who do hold hugely inflated handicaps for team events, and inter-club teams. There is absolutely no denying this!

What is more common, in my experience is guys picking a number and saying to themselves "this is the handicap at which I am comfortable". If they achieve a cut in handicap, it doesn't take them long for the handicap to get back to that number. I think this is very common, which is why you see a lot of guys finishing the year on the same handicap, despite winning a major prize or two.

Another factor is the stableford scoring system. A lot of golfers have a fear of losing their precious shot on a particular hole.

I don't believe the CONGU handicap system is inadequate, ok, its not perfect. The way in which competitions are structured, and how prizes are allotted is more of a driving force behind handicap manipulation IMHO.

GreeBo

DiegoWorst wrote: »

What is more common, in my experience is guys picking a number and saying to themselves "this is the handicap at which I am comfortable". If they achieve a cut in handicap, it doesn't take them long for the handicap to get back to that number. I think this is very common, which is why you see a lot of guys finishing the year on the same handicap, despite winning a major prize or two.

This is how it's supposed to work!
you play 20 qualifying events a year, you are going to have one or two of those days and win. You get cut but can't play to your new handicap so creep back to for the rest of the year.

Why do you think this is the mark of a bandit?
just because you have a good score didn't mean your ability has suddenly increased.

Again, a basic lack of understanding regarding congu is leading people to see bandits when it's actually perfectly normal, expected behavior.

Only person wins each event, just because it's not you and they have 40+ points doesn't make the winner a bandit.

DiegoWorst

GreeBo wrote: »

This is how it's supposed to work!
you play 20 qualifying events a year, you are going to have one or two of those days and win. You get cut but can't play to your new handicap so creep back to for the rest of the year.

Why do you think this is the mark of a bandit?
just because you have a good score didn't mean your ability has suddenly increased.

Again, a basic lack of understanding regarding congu is leading people to see bandits when it's actually perfectly normal, expected behavior.

Only person wins each event, just because it's not you and they have 40+ points doesn't make the winner a bandit.

There's a difference between "creeping out" and intentionally gaining .1s to get back to comfort-land.
My observation is not made by looking at winning scores, its by listening to what's been said by fellow golfers.

First Up

DiegoWorst wrote: »

There's a difference between "creeping out" and intentionally gaining .1s to get back to comfort-land.
My observation is not made by looking at winning scores, its by listening to what's been said by fellow golfers.

I think the bandits we were talking about originally are those who carry an inflated handicap from some distance membership and use it for team events and so never get cut.

There have been stories of members fiddling their scores for handicap purposes (including one notorious case where a club employee was sacked and the member expelled) but they are pretty rare. The .6 or .8 cut followed by the "creep out" is normal stuff.

Dr.Rieux

DiegoWorst wrote: »

There's a difference between "creeping out" and intentionally gaining .1s to get back to comfort-land.
My observation is not made by looking at winning scores, its by listening to what's been said by fellow golfers.

I would think a lot of what is being said is ego, a lot more difficult to admit that you can't play to your new handicap.

mike12

Bandits are not the guys that have 45 points in a regular weekend stableford these are the genunine golfers that are having their day in the sun.
Go out play your best and see what happens.
Guys that score 35/36 point s every week are on too high a handicap you should have that every 3rd or 4th round.
That is why you get deducted .2,.3 or .4 if you are you beat CSS by 1 or 2 shots on you good day then next 10 rounds you miss 5/6 buffers and get some .1's back that is what your average handicapp golfer looks like.

You will get improvers that have 40 plus points close together but i think the handicap system catches up with them. if they have put in extra effort them fair play to them if they pick up a couple of prizes on the way down.

spacecoyote

Bandits you say...the 11 hole comp in Grange Castle at the weekend was won with a score of 36 points...yep, you got that right, 36 points for 11 holes

kieran.

spacecoyote wrote: »

Bandits you say...the 11 hole comp in Grange Castle at the weekend was won with a score of 36 points...yep, you got that right, 36 points for 11 holes

Pro rata that would have been 59pts for 18 holes. Even playing off 18 he would need to have been 4 under gross for his round . He must have been scorched alive 'for his day in the sun' :cool::cool::cool:.

cgh

that or he badly needed to win a turkey

DiegoWorst

spacecoyote wrote: »

Bandits you say...the 11 hole comp in Grange Castle at the weekend was won with a score of 36 points...yep, you got that right, 36 points for 11 holes

I was going to suggest that perhaps "36pts" was a misprint for "26pts", but then I saw second prize was won with 32pts.

I'm now thinking "11 hole competition" is a misprint for "17 hole competition"????

GreeBo

Shortened course with placing, its not unheard of.

I had 32 points for 12 holes last week, and missed a good few putts.


ProRata means nothing on a golf course.
"Pro Rata" I've been 18 under.

kieran.

GreeBo wrote: »

ProRata means nothing on a golf course.

Of course this is true I was simply highlighting the extreme nature of the score. Placing or not 36 points for 11 holes is an extreme score. Congrats on your 32 points for 12 holes :rolleyes:

FixdePitchmark

That score is a disgrace.
I'd love to be handicap sec there.

phkk

We still have 18hole stableford competitions this time of year(which is a bug bear of mine). 20handicapper had 51 pts couple of weeks ago.gross 5over...mmmmmmmmmm??

Uncle Ben

one man clappin wrote: »

I know a guy whose GUI handicap is 21 or 22. In our local society his handicap was cut to 14 because he was winning so many of them. Played during the year and he came in with 40 points off 14 hanicap.

Not being specific and just using above post as an example,however there are a lot of posters who state 'i know this bloke....'
My answer is 'if you know these blokes...why don't you pull them, or report them'. Its like the ones who see the crime but wont report it to the garda because they don't want to be a grass, don't want to go to court, don't want to be identified etc etc.
If you know the bandits and do nothing you're colluding with them.

Russman

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Not being specific and just using above post as an example,however there are a lot of posters who state 'i know this bloke....'
My answer is 'if you know these blokes...why don't you pull them, or report them'. Its like the ones who see the crime but wont report it to the garda because they don't want to be a grass, don't want to go to court, don't want to be identified etc etc.
If you know the bandits and do nothing you're colluding with them.

Because an individual player is powerless to do anything. Not to be offhand, but what can he say ? "Mr handicap sec, Joe over there is much better than his handicap, he needs to be cut...." ?
Players reporting other players would lead to anarchy - personal differences & grudges being settled etc etc.

Tbh winter golf with placing and forward tees is so far removed from the real thing as to be almost a different sport. Scores everywhere shoot up with placing. That's why lots of clubs have domestic or winter handicaps, where you lose 2 or 3 shots for a win, a shot for a second place etc., until the season kicks off again in April. Most single figure players would frequently enough shoot under or level par for 12 hole comps in the winter, it's the placing.

In saying that, 51pts is a bit much, but he's not a very good bandit if the extent of his ambitions is a winter singles comp. I haven't a clue who he is or where he plays but I'd say chances are he's a high handicapper, no doubt carrying a few shots, who just had a crazy day. Why would a real bandit draw attention to themselves with a score like that ?

slave1

51 points off 20, what a ****ing joke, yeah forward tees, yeah placing, but you still have to keep the ball on the course, manage hazards and putt

alxmorgan

slave1 wrote: »

51 points off 20, what a ****ing joke, yeah forward tees, yeah placing, but you still have to keep the ball on the course, manage hazards and putt

Scores like this would suggest placing in rough has to stop. Pick, clean and drop in rough would seem more reasonable.

I say this as someone who benefits but knows its not doing me any good.

FixdePitchmark

slave1 wrote: »

51 points off 20, what a ****ing joke, yeah forward tees, yeah placing, but you still have to keep the ball on the course, manage hazards and putt

Is funny he targeted a non event. I was shocked at first then laughed out loud at that score.

I guess a turkey is important for the missus. :mad::P:D

He would be off 9 overnight with me if that was qualifying.
OK in summer conditions, he may have got 46 /47.

I'd have him at 14 then. Again i'm not giving him the full cut I want to.

Why people think you are entitled to a few prizes on way down is just not in my thinking, that is not the way the handicap system was ever meant to be.

You have to think that every golfer should have a chance every time we all start a competition. I want the number of guys out there carrying shots to be in a reasonable distribution. we have had lads on here tel us and actually admit they are carrying shots - it has now almost become an Irish cultural sort of - " I do be needing to be competitive"

I'll have you competitive - once and then you can still win , but we can all catch you now buddy.

I want that guy to stay competitive - but next time I play him , could be in an open I have the round of my life, I'll have a "chance" of catching him.

I don't like golf - if I have the round of my life - lose because a guy is carrying shots - I'd rather no handicap system if that is the game we are at.

"Ahhh sure he is be deserving a few prizes" --- **** off. I want to play the lad in a game of golf. I want to beat him. I don't want to be up against a lad who has a 43 in him after a 48. I've driven from Dublin to west cork or whatever to take on everyone.

The game would be far more fun. Bandits would be brought back to field - or have one win in them.

My argument is your best round is important indicator of your ability. I'm not suggesting we adjust that individual to an area they can't win - they are going to an area we can all win.

I'd even let lads have 41s if 40 was too harsh.

GreeBo

slave1 wrote: »

51 points off 20, what a ****ing joke, yeah forward tees, yeah placing, but you still have to keep the ball on the course, manage hazards and putt

I know a guy who had 36 points for 14 holes off 9, pro rata thats over 46 points.

alxmorgan wrote: »

Scores like this would suggest placing in rough has to stop. Pick, clean and drop in rough would seem more reasonable.

I say this as someone who benefits but knows its not doing me any good.

Why does it have to stop, its the same for everyone?
Why not make the hole smaller too?

PARlance

Santa is never going fit down your chimney Fix with that wish list.

FixdePitchmark

PARlance wrote: »

Santa is never going fit down your chimney Fix with that wish list.

It was interesting that Russman said it was harsher in past - when I have time will look up older rules.

Also , getting very interested in lads that have to keep handicaps at levels for certain inter-club stuff.

I know very little about this - must look into that too.

It basically means the GUI are putting up with this "Irish problem".

Ok - a bit angry , off to enjoy Christmas.

Enjoy all.

cairny

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

It was interesting that Russman said it was harsher in past - when I have time will look up older rules.

Also , getting very interested in lads that have to keep handicaps at levels for certain inter-club stuff.

I know very little about this - must look into that too.

It basically means the GUI are putting up with this "Irish problem".

Ok - a bit angry , off to enjoy Christmas.

Enjoy all.

Was talking to a fella bout the old system. He played in two comps I one day, cut 3 shots in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. Went from 13 to 8 and stayed there for 10 years, you had to apply for a shot back at the end of the year and probably wouldn't get it. I'd miss the jeopardy of trying to get into buffer zone tbh b

spacecoyote

cgh wrote: »

that or he badly needed to win a turkey

See, the thing I actually have always suspected is this. Our place give out gui vouchers as prizes in the weekly comps. You can use those against your annual sub.

I think that there has to be a bunch of guys thinking they can save a few quid off their membership fees without the pain of a handicap cut for a massive score. So they basically get about 3 months to load up on vouchers & knock a hundred quid or so off their annual sub

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

I know a guy who had 36 points for 14 holes off 9, pro rata thats over 46 points.



Why does it have to stop, its the same for everyone?
Why not make the hole smaller too?

Because its helping those who have a fault in their game. You hit a fairway, you get to place, you miss you suffer. Apart from drops plugging why allow placing in rough ?

FixdePitchmark

cairny wrote: »

Was talking to a fella bout the old system. He played in two comps I one day, cut 3 shots in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. Went from 13 to 8 and stayed there for 10 years, you had to apply for a shot back at the end of the year and probably wouldn't get it. I'd miss the jeopardy of trying to get into buffer zone tbh b

Well at least my idea was not totally out there so.

I would have a hybrid system - dealing with outliers and bring them in.
Wouldn't be as harsh at all.

It would be a bit like this - but happy Christmas. Not exact figures - but general idea.

Turkey time.

Uncle Ben

Russman wrote: »

Because an individual player is powerless to do anything. Not to be offhand, but what can he say ? "Mr handicap sec, Joe over there is much better than his handicap, he needs to be cut...." ?
Players reporting other players would lead to anarchy - personal differences & grudges being settled etc etc.

Tbh winter golf with placing and forward tees is so far removed from the real thing as to be almost a different sport. Scores everywhere shoot up with placing. That's why lots of clubs have domestic or winter handicaps, where you lose 2 or 3 shots for a win, a shot for a second place etc., until the season kicks off again in April. Most single figure players would frequently enough shoot under or level par for 12 hole comps in the winter, it's the placing.

In saying that, 51pts is a bit much, but he's not a very good bandit if the extent of his ambitions is a winter singles comp. I haven't a clue who he is or where he plays but I'd say chances are he's a high handicapper, no doubt carrying a few shots, who just had a crazy day. Why would a real bandit draw attention to themselves with a score like that ?

I'm not talking about the lad that may have one or two good rounds. I'm talking about the individual who is winning all around in Non qualifying golf and coming back to the club to play on his guarded gui handicap. What is wrong in telling the h/cap secretary that so & so has won a b or c. The player has responsibility to return cards to club. My post wasn't about making allegations, it was about stating facts.

cairny

Uncle Ben wrote: »

I'm not talking about the lad that may have one or two good rounds. I'm talking about the individual who is winning all around in Non qualifying golf and coming back to the club to play on his guarded gui handicap. What is wrong in telling the h/cap secretary that so & so has won a b or c. The player has responsibility to return cards to club. My post wasn't about making allegations, it was about stating facts.

Our handicap sec has cut a few guys on general play for winter scores. No issues at all, can't be individual members reporting it, handicap sec will (if he's good) monitor them and act as appropriate.

We've had a very good guy for the last few years, the result is the winter league is really competitive which has created a great buzz.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Is funny he targeted a non event. I was shocked at first then laughed out loud at that score.

I guess a turkey is important for the missus. :mad::P:D

He would be off 9 overnight with me if that was qualifying.
OK in summer conditions, he may have got 46 /47.

I'd have him at 14 then. Again i'm not giving him the full cut I want to.

Why people think you are entitled to a few prizes on way down is just not in my thinking, that is not the way the handicap system was ever meant to be.

You have to think that every golfer should have a chance every time we all start a competition. I want the number of guys out there carrying shots to be in a reasonable distribution. we have had lads on here tel us and actually admit they are carrying shots - it has now almost become an Irish cultural sort of - " I do be needing to be competitive"

I'll have you competitive - once and then you can still win , but we can all catch you now buddy.

I want that guy to stay competitive - but next time I play him , could be in an open I have the round of my life, I'll have a "chance" of catching him.

I don't like golf - if I have the round of my life - lose because a guy is carrying shots - I'd rather no handicap system if that is the game we are at.

"Ahhh sure he is be deserving a few prizes" --- **** off. I want to play the lad in a game of golf. I want to beat him. I don't want to be up against a lad who has a 43 in him after a 48. I've driven from Dublin to west cork or whatever to take on everyone.

The game would be far more fun. Bandits would be brought back to field - or have one win in them.

My argument is your best round is important indicator of your ability. I'm not suggesting we adjust that individual to an area they can't win - they are going to an area we can all win.

I'd even let lads have 41s if 40 was too harsh.

Jaysus fix, breathe man !!

Nobody is entitled to prizes on the way down, but it's the nature of the game that there's always a time lag with handicap catching up with new ability.
Say this guy who shot the 51pts (ok in fairness it's a mad score), but say he's a junior. It's not at all unusual for juniors on the way down to shoot crazy scores similar to that. They pick up a few prizes on they way down and typically are just as likely to shoot these scores in a meaningless singles as they are in the Captains prize. It's just the nature of the system and fast improver sat golf. You can't compartment the system and say it's for people who have already found their level, it's like the argument that players in the Metro should be off 9 on the day rather than lowest handicap the previous year, it's just because the competition regulars don't like being drawn against an improver on the way down.

Most people can play a few shots better than their handicap, they're not intentionally carrying shots, it's just that golf is hard to play well and human inconsistencies mean you'll have way more bad rounds (and therefore 0.1s) than good ones. It's supposed to be current, not "best" IMO.

Using the best round as a guide for handicapping doesn't make sense to me at all tbh. We had a guy who was actually "refunded" shots he lost through the ESR last year by the GUI. He went from something like 14 to 6, the world and it's mother knew he's no more a bandit than the man on the moon, and it was obviously a case where the additional cuts were wrong. Think he's back up to 10 now and I'd say hasn't played to it and is pretty unlikely to anytime soon. He had two great rounds (nothing crazy only maybe 41/42pts) about six months apart but he hadn't enough rounds played between them to negate the first one. He didn't even know there was such a thing as ESR.

PARlance

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

It was interesting that Russman said it was harsher in past - when I have time will look up older rules.

Also , getting very interested in lads that have to keep handicaps at levels for certain inter-club stuff.

I know very little about this - must look into that too.

It basically means the GUI are putting up with this "Irish problem".

Ok - a bit angry , off to enjoy Christmas.

Enjoy all.

In fairness to the GUI, I'm pretty sure Ireland is the only one out of England, Scot & Wales that have adopted the ESR.

So while the ESR isn't exactly enough for Fix At least we have it here.

Goldenjohn

I have to say I reckon the current system is fairly good. Bandits will always find a way around it and then your just penalising 90% of genuine guys who just happen play a good round every once in a while. As the old saying goes "hard cases make bad law"

Messing with the current handicap system won't solve the issue of guys minding handicaps for am ams, club majors, the winter turkey shoot and inter club. Given time it will just deflate the handicaps and the scoring of the real golfers making it easier for the bandits to come up for air on the big occasions and take home the prizes with 39/40 points.

I'm not sure what the answer is but changing the current congu system isn't it IMO.

Keano

So bandits are in the minority and we need to punish the majority to fix it. Let them have it. I play golf with enough honest folk so I'm not going to worry about them.

Goldenjohn

Keano wrote: »

So bandits are in the minority and we need to punish the majority to fix it. Let them have it. I play golf with enough honest folk so I'm not going to worry about them.

Out of interest what percentage of the golfing population do people think are bandits...

I'd guess
4% bandits
8% Minders(upwards)
2% minders(downwards)
86% genuine

Keano

I was thinking 90% genuine myself.

Goldenjohn

Keano wrote: »

I was thinking 90% genuine myself.

I was originally thinking that figure, but I reckon there are def more manipulators/minders than you think....

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Because its helping those who have a fault in their game. You hit a fairway, you get to place, you miss you suffer. Apart from drops plugging why allow placing in rough ?

Because at this time of year the ball can get caked in mud, the rough is longer and thinner, the ball settles more.
Finally probably half the field don't have the power to hit the ball out of the rough in those conditions.

Also it's winter and non qualifying, who cares what the winning scores are?

doublecross

If u want to find bandits then the clare golf challenge is great place to find them. Same people getting to the final (if not winning) nearly every year, must of them members of prominent golf clubs.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Because at this time of year the ball can get caked in mud, the rough is longer and thinner, the ball settles more.
Finally probably half the field don't have the power to hit the ball out of the rough in those conditions.

Also it's winter and non qualifying, who cares what the winning scores are?

I don't see mud as being an issue if you allow clean and drop.

Possibly an issue with people hitting out of rough alright. The thing is its not the same for everyone though as in a normal scenario people who hit fairways are rewarded whereas there is no real reward with placing. If anything hitting the rough can be an advantage as you can create a nice tee for yourself.

Not a big deal to me really it just seems heavily weighted towards the higher handicaps. Perhaps having people playing off a reduced handicap across the board when these conditions are in play would make more sense.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

I don't see mud as being an issue if you allow clean and drop.

Possibly an issue with people hitting out of rough alright. The thing is its not the same for everyone though as in a normal scenario people who hit fairways are rewarded whereas there is no real reward with placing. If anything hitting the rough can be an advantage as you can create a nice tee for yourself.

Not a big deal to me really it just seems heavily weighted towards the higher handicaps. Perhaps having people playing off a reduced handicap across the board when these conditions are in play would make more sense.

It's never going to be the same for everyone.
tbh most of the older people I see are straight down the middle, the lack of roll kills them.

Long and wild benefit most winter.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

It's never going to be the same for everyone.
tbh most of the older people I see are straight down the middle, the lack of roll kills them.

Long and wild benefit most winter.

Ya possibly. I also think it suits players who struggle with proper contact off the ground. So those who struggle to hit down and through the ball. Teeing it up changes it completely for them.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Ya possibly. I also think it suits players who struggle with proper contact off the ground. So those who struggle to hit down and through the ball. Teeing it up changes it completely for them.

Totally, most beginners love to tee it up in the rough, it often causes me havoc when I completely go under the ball, especially with the wedges.

Goldenjohn

Recent article from Brian Keogh ...

http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/12/27/no-place-for-cheats-in-the-game-as-gui-studies-measures

SaveOurLyric

doublecross wrote: »

If u want to find bandits then the clare golf challenge is great place to find them. Same people getting to the final (if not winning) nearly every year, must of them members of prominent golf clubs.

Clare huh ? :rolleyes:

SaveOurLyric

Irishgolfdesk.com comes out as against cheats in golf:

http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/12/27/no-place-for-cheats-in-the-game-as-gui-studies-measures

mike12

Think i maybe a bandit was looking at my golfnet and gone from 12.2 to 13.5 this year of the 3 rounds where i got a cut i scratched the last hole in 2 of the rounds a par on both would have me off a handicap of 11.7.
Basically 2 poor holes have me off 14 instead of 12. Just shows how easy it is to keep the handicap high.

Wombatman

Local handicap secretaries\committees have as much responsibility as the GUI.
Cutting a shot or two for a non qualifying club competition win\place would be a great local rule in most clubs.

DiegoWorst

Wombatman wrote: »

Local handicap secretaries\committees have as much responsibility as the GUI.
Cutting a shot or two for a non qualifying club competition win\place would be a great local rule in most clubs.

Agreed 100%
But would this lead to a lot of nasty letters being sent to the hcp secretary?

mike12

DiegoWorst wrote: »

Agreed 100%
But would this lead to a lot of nasty letters being sent to the hcp secretary?

Think once there is a formula in place for cutting winners of non qualifying and team events then people will accept it.
Not sure how exactly but maybe half the cut in winter that you have in summer and no .1's back may work well.
For team event it may be very hard to come up with a formula and you will have guys who contributed nothing getting cut. but i think something like first win no cut second .5 third 1 shot and a full review after that.
Scramble shouldn't count only 4ball and 3/4 person team event.

Russman

Don't most clubs do domestic or winter handicaps already though ? Where you lose say two shots for a win etc, and then when the season kicks off again in the spring you revert to your "normal" handicap ? Seems a lot fairer than cutting someone's real handicap based on shortened course, placing etc. ?