Apple on Panorama

Hachiko

kylith wrote: »

Except that it's not Apple, is it? It's Foxconn, who also make a pile of stuff for other companies so Android, Dell, Penneys, Reebok, they are all complicit in the practises you list. Want to boycott the companies? No worries, then the workers don't have jobs and they starve. Want the workers to get a fair wage? Say goodbye to Penneys' bargains and get used to paying E80 for a pair of jeans.

They are Apples assembly partner, They make the product according to Apples demands and requirements, if that requires people to work 14 hour shifts and get killed in the process, so be it.

Apple want to get that $600 IPhone into the hands of the people being whooped and cheered into the stores like guinea pigs.

Hachiko

c_man wrote: »

Sounds good. *re-reads OP* No, he's just having a go at Apple and their users.

that is entirely true, on the blatant exploitation of workers and the blatant rip off they are doing to people around the world with phones hardly worth half of what they actually cost.

plus the ecosystem they have forever tied you to once you do get an apple product. Frankly, I would rather use a Nokia 3310 than get any iphone.

BMMachine

I had an ipod once.
I downloaded an update for it which then broke it and then apple tried to charge me to fix it.


but that probably didnt happen or it was my fault, right?

BMMachine

VinLieger wrote: »

How was I or anyone else distracting from the issue by naming other companies that use the same disgusting labour practices?
If anything I would say I was helping the issue by informing those who are new to it how it is not only apple but all the major tech companies that employ Foxconn to manufacture their products and simply being annoyed at apple won't solve the problem. You want to make a difference to these workers environment you need to target everyone who uses them and not just the most high profile obvious example just cus its the easiest one and is guaranteed click bait.

distracting the issue in a way that somewhat justifies it, I know its not your intent but it will get people talking about the wrong thing "oh this company is better bla bla bla". fact is they are all scum and care not a jot about the cost of human life.

Apple are doing this. They the biggest and most notorious player in that market.

ScumLord

samapple789 wrote: »

Been watching this but anything you buy from China is made just like this i am sorry tell you.

That's not strictly true, there are some companies from Europe that run there manufacturing from China and have pretty good conditions that would be comparable to European factories. they tend to be high end and lower volume. The bigger the volume a company deals in the more willing they seem to be to allow for dodgy practices to slip in because the volumes of money to be made are colossal.

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

Foxconn isn't Apple.

No but who puts pressure on Foxconn to produce their goods cheaper and cheaper? Apple don't go to Foxconn because of their world renowned excellence they go because foxconn are cheap. Every year Apple could show up and say someone else said they can make our units 1c cheaper, match them or we'll move our production. This forces worse and worse conditions, bar developing very expensive automation to reduce cost in the long run the only option is to take it out on the workforce and reduce standards across the boards.

Ultimately of course it's the consumer that forces apple, that forces foxconn. In this world how you spend you money is almost more effective than how you cast your vote.

jmayo wrote: »

Apple believe in getting it built cheaply and then sold with an astronomical markup.

The price they pay for the hardware isn't the whole cost of the unit. They have to cover the design, patenting, advertising, they have expensive shop fronts now as well. They're image is an expensive one and it seems to work.

Hachiko

Not to mention paying the 'apple ambassadors' whose job is to look like a jerk and cheer you into the store and tell you queue up in line.

Too Tough To Die

Oh my god if Steve Jobs knew he'd be horrified.

mad muffin

It wasn't even Foxconn in that shill piece. It was Pegatron… :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight

Venus In Furs wrote: »

Yeh there is Apple fanboy/girl-ism for sure (I don't understand the hype) but there's a bandwagon of being anti Apple at every opportunity also, despite other electronics companies not being saints either.

The main difference is that Apple is more of a lifestyle brand who aren't in the race to the bottom.

If Apple with their large margins (up to 50% based on component costs) and attempt at squeaky clean image aren't trying to improve things then the other companies have no incentive to.

Greenwashing is the word. CBA looking it up but I suspect that Apple spend more on marketing their image than paying for improved conditions for the workforce.

It's the old Nike thing of paying one basketball star more to do their ads than the entire workforce who made the shoes, or how big pharma really spend a lot on R&D but spend multiples of that amount on marketing, worse than Hollywood or the games industry.

Pwindedd

I like the iPad I think it's a great product at a fairly reasonable price - the iPhone however is too pricey and not robust enough to carry around on a daily basis.

I'm sure nearly every electrical product in our homes is made of cheaply made components produced under dubious working conditions. Nothing can be mass produced without cheap labour.

If you can't live with that then you need to stop buying those products.

ScumLord

Pwindedd wrote: »

Nothing can be mass produced without cheap labour.

It would be more true to say "nothing can be mass produced without expensive labour". With the right amount of automation you would only have experienced engineers on the line to keep it running.

Cheap labour tends to be a part of the production line that hasn't yet been automated because it's not cost effective to automate that particular task yet.

Automation replaces cheap labour, cheap labour isn't an essential part of an automated process.

NoMore MrNiceGuy

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The main difference is that Apple is more of a lifestyle brand who aren't in the race to the bottom.

If Apple with their large margins (up to 50% based on component costs) and attempt at squeaky clean image aren't trying to improve things then the other companies have no incentive to.

Greenwashing is the word. CBA looking it up but I suspect that Apple spend more on marketing their image than paying for improved conditions for the workforce.

It's the old Nike thing of paying one basketball star more to do their ads than the entire workforce who made the shoes, or how big pharma really spend a lot on R&D but spend multiples of that amount on marketing, worse than Hollywood or the games industry.

But Apple is improving things as an NGO Verite point out.

Apple has done more than most, if not all, other tech companies in order to change conditions in its Chinese factories, a leading human rights NGO has said

More than most indicates there's a certain bias to the anti-Apple side here. It's not really concern about the conditions.

NoMore MrNiceGuy

ScumLord wrote: »

It would be more true to say "nothing can be mass produced without expensive labour". With the right amount of automation you would only have experienced engineers on the line to keep it running.

Cheap labour tends to be a part of the production line that hasn't yet been automated because it's not cost effective to automate that particular task yet.

Automation replaces cheap labour, cheap labour isn't an essential part of an automated process.

Without Globalisation and cheap labour in fact there would be more money spent on automization.

Piliger

A total hatchet job on Apple with manipulated editing and selective content. Cheap labour brings good money to poor people, better education for their children and a better life. The usual BBC left wing nonsense.

Hachiko

lol

mad muffin

Hachiko wrote: »

lol

LOL?! LOL?!

This is serious business. Serious bloody business!!! :mad:

Dempsey

Apple are well aware of the working conditions at Foxconn and many of the incidents that have happened on their sites, which is by and large legal where their these facilities are. Apple could tell them to improve the situation to appease their image and customers but that would only result in a higher manufacturing cost to them as a customer of Foxconn on their next derivative product. Would their shareholders approve of that? Nope, because they like their dividends the way they are.

They are all at it defence is laughable tbh

dlouth15

To be honest I would prefer if, rather than being morally outraged, people would simply admit their embarrassment at paying over the odds for an ordinary phone.

NoMore MrNiceGuy

Dempsey wrote: »

Apple are well aware of the working conditions at Foxconn and many of the incidents that have happened on their sites, which is by and large legal where their these facilities are. Apple could tell them to improve the situation to appease their image and customers but that would only result in a higher manufacturing cost to them as a customer of Foxconn on their next derivative product. Would their shareholders approve of that? Nope, because they like their dividends the way they are.

They are all at it defence is laughable tbh

But Apple do investigate the conditions unlike others. As NGOs have pointed out. It produces a supplier report every quarter. Not only did the program ignore the capitalists who own the companies ( not Apple) and the countries who don't ever investigate it ignored all the other companies who source from Foxconn and Pegatron.

Dempsey

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

But Apple do investigate the conditions unlike others. As NGOs have pointed out. It produces a supplier report every quarter. Not only did the program ignore the capitalists who own the companies ( not Apple) and the countries who don't ever investigate it ignored all the other companies who source from Foxconn and Pegatron.

You think no other multinational is worried about a supplier doing something that could impact their image/profits? You think Apple are the only company assessing their suppliers??

Apple have audited Foxconn, they are happy to be in business with them despite all they know and so is everyone else for the same reasons.

Wompa1

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

But Apple do investigate the conditions unlike others. As NGOs have pointed out. It produces a supplier report every quarter. Not only did the program ignore the capitalists who own the companies ( not Apple) and the countries who don't ever investigate it ignored all the other companies who source from Foxconn and Pegatron.

They put on a front that they investigate it. They do not.

NoMore MrNiceGuy

Dempsey wrote: »

You think no other multinational is worried about a supplier doing something that could impact their image/profits? You think Apple are the only company assessing their suppliers??

Apple have audited Foxconn, they are happy to be in business with them despite all they know and so is everyone else for the same reasons.

I can't link but the foremost NGO investigating these matters says that Apple is the best at auditing suppliers.

NoMore MrNiceGuy

You guys will be off to buy the Texas produced Mac Pro for peace of mind then? It's Intel inside so you can run Windows if that is your schtick.

Wompa1

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

I can't link but the foremost NGO investigating these matters says that Apple is the best at auditing suppliers.

Auditing is not investigating. It's putting the work on somebody else. The documentary showed that they fill in checklists but that the employees are told exactly what to write, if they don't write exactly as told they are fired.

Apple are the only company I'm aware of that has not only claimed things have been improved whilst they haven't but they are the only ones who produced an actual promotional video narrated by their CEO addressing it. The reason they've had to do this is because their products are ****e and they rely on their image.

Wompa1

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

You guys will be off to buy the Texas produced Mac Pro for peace of mind then? It's Intel inside so you can run Windows if that is your schtick.

I see...is this about Apple vs other brands or about the actual show??

P.S I own a Macbook Pro, running Yosemite. I also own an iPod Touch. Yet, I don't feel the need to defend the company. If you watch the Documentary, there's no way to defend them

NoMore MrNiceGuy

Wompa1 wrote: »

Auditing is not investigating. It's putting the work on somebody else. The documentary showed that they fill in checklists but that the employees are told exactly what to write, if they don't write exactly as told they are fired.

Apple are the only company I'm aware of that has not only claimed things have been improved whilst they haven't but they are the only ones who produced an actual promotional video narrated by their CEO addressing it. The reason they've had to do this is because their products are ****e and they rely on their image.

Let me repeat. The NGO says unlike other manufacturers of whatever crap android product you have imposes fines and audits these companies.

Your comment about how bad Apples product line is reveals the real audience for these viewer-bait yellow journalism. Android fans not anybody who cares about malpractice.

NoMore MrNiceGuy

Wompa1 wrote: »

I see...is this about Apple vs other brands or about the actual show??

P.S I own a Macbook Pro, running Yosemite. I also own an iPod Touch. Yet, I don't feel the need to defend the company. If you watch the Documentary, there's no way to defend them

I did watch the documentary. I noticed that it was biased mostly in sins of omission. So here I am.

The whole debate here is anti-Apple brand haters. If Apple started to assemble the iPhone in the US, which might happen, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the Apple haters

Wompa1

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

Let me repeat. The NGO says unlike other manufacturers of whatever crap android product you have imposes fines and audits these companies.

Your comment about how bad Apples product line is reveals the real audience for these viewer-bait yellow journalism. Android fans not anybody who cares about malpractice.

What are you talking about? I own their f'kin products. I'm not typing on a Chromebook or PC about my hatred of Apple. They make beautiful hardware, their software is crap. Don't take it personally.

Most Android phones are terrible. Third party apps on Android are mostly sh1te. Windows 8 and 8.1 are awful.

Apple are auditing to help their own image. It's hollow, there's no substance behind their auditing. It's a paper trail. They are dishonest scumbags just like the rest, only difference is that they are putting on a front that they are somehow better

pueblo

It only takes one rotten apple...

Dempsey

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

I can't link but the foremost NGO investigating these matters says that Apple is the best at auditing suppliers.

Who is the foremost NGO? What exactly do Apple audit their suppliers for? Do Apple conduct the audit themselves or do they hire a 3rd party? How many audits were about working conditions and how many were about process assessment and quality of end product?

AnimalChin

Wompa1 wrote: »

their products are ****e and they rely on their image.

Wompa1 wrote: »

I own a Macbook Pro, running Yosemite. I also own an iPod Touch.

Hmmmm.

Wompa1

AnimalChin wrote: »

Hmmmm.

Go on? Want examples of why I think they are ****e?

I bought the Macbook Pro about three years ago. I've run it with Mountain Lion, Mavericks and Yosemite.

The update process itself was straight forward. But each time I upgraded my third party applications broke. I use a NAS at home, I couldn't use it with my MAC at one stage after an upgrade for a couple of months until an Apple Update fixed the problem. The third party manufacturers fixed the apps so they worked after a while with an update. Unfortunately, an application I paid $80 for a year and a half ago that broke with Mavericks, also broke with Yosemite and the vendor has stated they won't support it now.

When moving from Mountain Lion to Mavericks, some of the actual Apple built in applications got corrupted. Which is strange since many of them are single files. iMovie was one of the apps that broke. From what I saw online, that wasn't a widespread issue.

My WiFi turned to ****e after that upgrade. Kept dropping off and was constantly looking for other networks. Still have that latter issue but it's more consistent.

I bought the Macbook Pro, I had no issue that they stopped producing them with a CD\DVD drive. I never even thought to see if it had an ethernet port which was my own fault BUT assuming Pro meant Professional, I had thought it would come with the port. This was a problem when trying to set up a new modem at home.

The basics of the OS are awful. Safari is a load of crap. The E-mail client is awful. iTunes is one of the worst applications on any OS. The Updates on OS X are so bad...why the hell do I have to quit open applications?? Well, I know why. Because the applications don't exit when you close them. Which is dumb.

If I want to open multiple instances of one application e.g. open 4 instances of the calculator you need to run a command from the Terminal.

I moved from Ireland to the US. My AppleID was based in Ireland. I had all kinds of problems trying to use my AppleID in the US. I ended up having to just setup a new account.

As for the iPod Touch. I bought it about 2 months ago. I travel a lot for work, I got fed up of my phone dying whilst playing music on long flights. From what I can tell, Apple hasn't kept parity hardware wise with the iPod Touch and the iPhone so the last iOS runs like hell on it. It's so slow.

I have more problems but then people who like Apple might get upset and I wouldn't want that.

That's just some of my issues. My dislike of Apples products is not based on the fact it's Apple and is somehow an easy target. It's because they made bad products.

Wompa1

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

I did watch the documentary. I noticed that it was biased mostly in sins of omission. So here I am.

The whole debate here is anti-Apple brand haters. If Apple started to assemble the iPhone in the US, which might happen, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the Apple haters

Oh that's another reason to dislike Apple. They committed to moving more manufacturing back to the US to appease the Government pressure. They agreed to using sub contracted companies who needed to onboard and train staff before production started, many of them hired thousands of people and leased new building to house their operations. They then reneged after the staff had already been hired and trained.

After the companies had put all of their eggs firmly in the Apple basket. Most of those companies ended up going under due to the bait and switch. Apple were just trying to keep the pressure off them.

I know this because where I live over in Arizona, was meant to get one of the factories. Another place was in Texas.

They are scumbags

BMMachine

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

You guys will be off to buy the Texas produced Mac Pro for peace of mind then? It's Intel inside so you can run Windows if that is your schtick.

something tells me you REALLY like Apple. Like maybe a bit too much. Like maybe so much that you have lost your perspective on the treatment of human beings in favour of supporting a technology company like one would a football team.

Piliger

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

But Apple do investigate the conditions unlike others. As NGOs have pointed out. It produces a supplier report every quarter. Not only did the program ignore the capitalists who own the companies ( not Apple) and the countries who don't ever investigate it ignored all the other companies who source from Foxconn and Pegatron.

That's what biased selective hatchet jobs do. Television is the perfect place to construct, select, edit and present a one sided misleading program designed to match the political aims and prejudices of the producers.

Hachiko

NoMore MrNiceGuy wrote: »

I did watch the documentary. I noticed that it was biased mostly in sins of omission. So here I am.

The whole debate here is anti-Apple brand haters. If Apple started to assemble the iPhone in the US, which might happen, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the Apple haters

you can smell the fanboys a few million miles away, Apple have as much chance of making an i-whatever in the USA as you have of getting on the presidential shortlist.

Its punter like you sucking up crazy money for inferior Apple products that make them such a valuable company, that and the fact they pay about 5 dollars labour to make a 600+ dollar device and fill it with out dated tech.

I am quite happy with a note 4 with a 128Gb external sd card and 32Gb of device memory for my computing needs. Anyone who knows anything about technology can see the Apple products are not exactly cutting edge. An iPhone 6+ with 128Gb of memory would probably be the cost of a decent 2nd hand car.

That wont stop them punters getting an iPhone 7 that will still probably be outdated in terms of what is available now and undoubtedly be assembled with exceptional 5 dollar salary for a most likely Asian assembly partner of its choice.

Hachiko

Wompa1 wrote: »

What are you talking about? I own their f'kin products. I'm not typing on a Chromebook or PC about my hatred of Apple. They make beautiful hardware, their software is crap. Don't take it personally.

Most Android phones are terrible. Third party apps on Android are mostly sh1te. Windows 8 and 8.1 are awful.

Apple are auditing to help their own image. It's hollow, there's no substance behind their auditing. It's a paper trail. They are dishonest scumbags just like the rest, only difference is that they are putting on a front that they are somehow better

Seems all these 80% of people globally are really hating the android experience so much then.

In Q4 2013, according to research firm IDC, Google's Android mobile operating system had a 78% share of all users globally. Apple's iOS had just 18%. Now, IDC predicts that in 2014 Android will claim 80.2% of users and only 14.8% will be on Apple's iOS system.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/iphone-v-android-market-share-2014-5#ixzz3Mm2TITsM

kyote00

Seemingly Vietnam makes China labour rates look expensive....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-11/samsung-shifts-plants-from-china-to-protect-margins.html

colossus-x

anncoates wrote: »

Not just Apple surely. How much would a lot of your other luxury items cost if they were not being built at those wages.

The same. The company instead of making 1/2 trillion profit would only make 1/4 trillion.