Liverpool VS Arsenal Sunday(16.00 ko) Anfield - Mod Note Linked in OP

kryogen

Arsenal dropped so deep in toward the end, with a man advantage, absolutely disgraceful from them and they got what they deserved in the end for giving Liverpool that incentive to keep going. They have the players to pass and keep the ball, they just had no interest in it, even right at the end the Liverpool keeper was dithering with the ball, Welbeck closed him down alright but he was not backed up by any of his teammates who were all backing off to their own goal again, even when the ball was played out they didn't go to challenge for it, or the Liverpool player who received it, they were happy to draw.

Godge

What is with Rodgers suggesting Sanchez dived?

Is the pressure getting to him? Is he that desperate?

Godge

niallo27 wrote: »

Well in fairness there is a much better chance of like liverpool winning a trophy than arsenal this season without getting into We are better than you argument.

At least you made me smile tonight, thanks for that.

Whatever you are taking, keep at it.

extra gravy

monkey9 wrote: »

I'll take the draw, especially going into injury time. But I loved the way we approached the game. Arsenal had no intention in winning that game, they lead because Liverpool are sh!t at the back.

Bloody loved that Skrtel goal. Loved it.

And Pool got a draw because Arsenal are sh!t at the back. They approached the game like any team should when they're at home. There was nothing particularly special or noteworthy about the performance and the post match hyberbole from Redknapp and Bellamy was embarrassing.

niallo27

Godge wrote: »

At least you made me smile tonight, thanks for that.

Whatever you are taking, keep at it.

Liverpool are in a league cup semi final against a Chelsea who are going for 4 trophies. Either side will win the league or in Europe bar a miracle and maybe arsenal will be slight favourites over Liverpool to win a fa cup. Do you disagree with this because I think it's very logical and the bookies agree.

Kirby

Godge wrote: »

What is with Rodgers suggesting Sanchez dived?

Is the pressure getting to him? Is he that desperate?

Just because it's a foul, doesn't mean its not a dive. You need to accept that.

Rodgers is trying to deflect. But he's also correct. Sanchez dived, plain and simple. Anybody with eyes could see it. Gerrard kicked him, and fouled him....and then Sanchez decided to do the unnatural thing and flop like a fish.

The bolded bit is the important bit. Going down was a choice. He didn't have his legs swept away....he felt contact and flopped.

Diving wont be eradicated until certain sections of the fanbase and journalists stop with the "There was contact!" and "But he was fouled!" nonsense.

extra gravy

Kirby wrote: »

Just because it's a foul, doesn't mean its not a dive. You need to accept that.

Rodgers is trying to deflect. But he's also correct. Sanchez dived, plain and simple. Anybody with eyes could see it. Gerrard kicked him, and fouled him....and then Sanchez decided to do the unnatural thing and flop like a fish.

The bolded bit is the important bit. Going down was a choice. He didn't have his legs swept away....he felt contact and flopped.

Diving wont be eradicated until certain sections of the fanbase and journalists stop with the "There was contact!" and "But he was fouled!" nonsense.

Do you think if Sterling's handball had led to a goal, Rodgers would have been up in arms about it? Of course not. Managers see what they want to see. But him pontificating about an opposition player diving after having the likes of Suarez in his team was a bit rich.

Kirby

Yes but that's another issue. That issue is managers deflecting and being hypocritical....and it's not what I'm talking about. My issue is people genuinely having the belief that it's okay to dive if you've been fouled....and other people who don't think it's a dive at all. It's flabberghasting.

There was a lad the other day, Chucky the tree, who with a straight face thought that Robben's dive in the world cup to win that penalty wasn't a dive. When I hear stuff like that i despair for the future of the game.

That's the issue. Not Rodgers being a typical manager and deflecting. The issue is fans and pundits making excuses for pathetic play acting.

Mourinho came out the other day and claimed retrospective bans for diving would be a bad thing.......because like most clubs he has a team full of divers and it would hurt him. It's self interest tbh. I think Hazard is a truly brilliant footballer. He's magic. But he dives about 20 times a game and that sort of crap needs to be eradicated.

greendom

Kirby wrote: »

Yes but that's another issue. That issue is managers deflecting and being hypocritical....and it's not what I'm talking about. My issue is people genuinely having the belief that it's okay to dive if you've been fouled....and other people who don't think it's a dive at all. It's flabberghasting.

There was a lad the other day, Chucky the tree, who with a straight face thought that Robben's dive in the world cup to win that penalty wasn't a dive. When I hear stuff like that i despair for the future of the game.

That's the issue. Not Rodgers being a typical manager and deflecting. The issue is fans and pundits making excuses for pathetic play acting.

There was contact from Gerard, added to which Sanchez was attempting a very tight turn on a less than perfect pitch. I think he slipped, abetted by the contact.

Kirby

We've established there was contact. You can see it in the replay. You can also see the dive and the arch of the back. It wasn't a slip. He dived.

Quazzie

There was contact and he was moving at speed. He was fouled and he made sure the ref knew it.

Rodgers is clutching at straws to deflect away from his team who were abysmal.

AdamD

lol, talking about Sanchez when Sterling went all Henry on us. I think its pretty clear at this stage that they're all cheating bastards.

MD1990

extra gravy wrote: »

And Pool got a draw because Arsenal are sh!t at the back. They approached the game like any team should when they're at home. There was nothing particularly special or noteworthy about the performance and the post match hyberbole from Redknapp and Bellamy was embarrassing.

Most shots Arsenal have faced since opta began in 03.
Least amount of possesion they had since 03 for a team who prides themself on possesion.

Quazzie

Quazzie wrote: »

There was contact and he was moving at speed. He was fouled and he made sure the ref knew it.

Rodgers is clutching at straws to deflect away from his team who were abysmal.

Manager in deflecting shocker. Is this a new thing?

Mourinhio does it for a living, Ferguson was a great man for it too. Wenger never sees anything. The vast majority of them talk a lot of nonsense.

Don't start me on footballers, you'd get more sense from a dead cat then a lot of them.

Fans who take what managers/players say seriously probably can't really be taken too seriously themselves.

MD1990

MD1990 wrote: »

Most shots Arsenal have faced since opta began in 03.
Least amount of possesion they had since 03 for a team who prides themself on possesion.

It shows how bad Arsenal are when these are being glossed over tbh.

It's a poor Liverpool team that they played too

Nerdlingr

extra gravy wrote: »

And Pool got a draw because Arsenal are sh!t at the back. They approached the game like any team should when they're at home. There was nothing particularly special or noteworthy about the performance and the post match hyberbole from Redknapp and Bellamy was embarrassing.

Restricting Arsenal to 36% possession, their lowest since the stats began, andd generally playing them off the park, is pretty noteworthy.

Kirby

Quazzie wrote: »

There was contact and he was moving at speed. He was fouled and he made sure the ref knew it.

So, he dived then? It's a dirty word but you need to stop using euphemism's and say it.

Soft.... Made sure of the foul.... Been clever there..... Bought that one....Used his experience. And of course my personal favourite "Gone down easy". Alan Shearer loves that one.

These are just euphemisms for diving. He dived. Call a spade a spade.

5starpool

AdamD wrote: »

lol, talking about Sanchez when Sterling went all Henry on us. I think its pretty clear at this stage that they're all cheating bastards.

They pretty much are. Nearly all footballers cheat. Whether it's claiming innocence when they foul someone, or dive, or handball deliberately, or claim a corner or throw they know is not theirs, or feign injury to timewaste or get another player carded. Football fans need to put away the faux outrage and pretending it's mostly players from other teams who do that, not my brave bunch of honest souls.

If someone cheats against Liverpool and get the decision, of course I'll be livid if it leads to a goal or a red card, but there is no point engaging in "ya well, your guys did worse, etc, etc" type posting. It is deflection and childish in most cases. I'm sure I've done it in the past, and I may even do so in the future in a haze of 'injustice', but certainly not the next day.

greendom

Kirby wrote: »

So, he dived then? It's a dirty word but you need to stop using euphemism's and say it.

Soft.... Made sure of the foul.... Been clever there..... Bought that one....Used his experience. And of course my personal favourite "Gone down easy". Alan Shearer loves that one.

These are just euphemisms for diving. He dived. Call a spade a spade.

If a player feels contact, and was going down anyway, I have no issue with him making it more obvious.

A dive to me is when there is no contact or not enough to make the player fall over.

Kirby

greendom wrote: »

If a player feels contact, and was going down anyway, I have no issue with him making it more obvious.

A dive to me is when there is no contact or not enough to make the player fall over.

There was not enough contact to make Sanchez fall over. He chose to go down. It was a decision. By your own definition, he dived.

Contact has absolutely nothing to do with simulation. It's irrelevant. Pretending you had your legs taken away from you is simulation and whether you got kicked or not doesn't change that.

The argument around "was it a foul" when the diving debate comes up is completely superfluous. You can be fouled and still perform a triple pike. Why can't some people see this?

smileyj1987

5starpool wrote: »

They pretty much are. Nearly all footballers cheat. Whether it's claiming innocence when they foul someone, or dive, or handball deliberately, or claim a corner or throw they know is not theirs, or feign injury to timewaste or get another player carded. Football fans need to put away the faux outrage and pretending it's mostly players from other teams who do that, not my brave bunch of honest souls.

If someone cheats against Liverpool and get the decision, of course I'll be livid if it leads to a goal or a red card, but there is no point engaging in "ya well, your guys did worse, etc, etc" type posting. It is deflection and childish in most cases. I'm sure I've done it in the past, and I may even do so in the future in a haze of 'injustice', but certainly not the next day.

Look at carzola yesterday , he tripped someone as Liverpool broke it was a deliberate act of cheating . Gerrard did it against Leicester when he pulled back one of their players .
Cheating is part and parcel of the game . No player can claim they have never cheated . So I don't think anyone can complain about cheating at all .

5starpool

Kirby wrote: »

The argument around "was it a foul" when the diving debate comes up is completely superfluous. You can be fouled and still perform a triple pike. Why can't some people see this?

Suarez does this all the time. A foul and a dive in most instances which leads to some blatant fouls not being given due to overreactions.

Kirby

5starpool wrote: »

Suarez does this all the time. A foul and a dive in most instances which leads to some blatant fouls not being given due to overreactions.

Yeah he does. It's learned behaviour.

It's not up to the players or the managers or the clubs to stop it. It's up to the FA, UEFA and FIFA. Start banning players.

Not for obvious no contact, Eduardo type dives. For the dives we see 20 times in every single game. The slight contact, fling yourself to the ground dives. Only then will things get better.

But it wont happen because the governing body don't have the stomach for it. It especially wont happen while we have fans making excuses for it.

There's actually not that many dives where a player isn't touched at all.

I'd imagine the vast majority are where a player receives slight contact and goes down.

greendom

rarnes1 wrote: »

There's actually not that many dives where a player isn't touched at all.

I'd imagine the vast majority are where a player receives slight contact and goes down.

and I would say it's impossible to sanction a player for a dive when there is contact.

garra

5starpool wrote: »

Suarez does this all the time. A foul and a dive in most instances which leads to some blatant fouls not being given due to overreactions.

The whole "cheating" thing comes back to cultural differences concerning the background of players. In most south american countries and in the latin european countries, the successful conning of a referee into awarding a penalty or card is seen as a job well done, getting one over on authority. In northern europe the view of such behaviour is the polar opposite, and while latin countries dominate football you have to respect the fact that these heralded qualities of subterfuge will pervade in the game.

5starpool

garra wrote: »

The whole "cheating" thing comes back to cultural differences concerning the background of players. In most south american countries and in the latin european countries, the successful conning of a referee into awarding a penalty or card is seen as a job well done, getting one over on authority. In northern europe the view of such behaviour is the polar opposite, and while latin countries dominate football you have to respect the fact that these heralded qualities of subterfuge will pervade in the game.

Plenty of Northern Europeans learned to dive independently of any South American influence.

Diving is far from the only form of cheating in football too.

efb

Sanchez didn't dive Gerrard clipped him when he was turning rendering him off Balancr

Quazzie

Kirby wrote: »

There was not enough contact to make Sanchez fall over. He chose to go down. It was a decision. By your own definition, he dived.

Contact has absolutely nothing to do with simulation. It's irrelevant. Pretending you had your legs taken away from you is simulation and whether you got kicked or not doesn't change that.

The argument around "was it a foul" when the diving debate comes up is completely superfluous. You can be fouled and still perform a triple pike. Why can't some people see this?

So did Lallana dive when Flamini jumped up with him?

garra

5starpool wrote: »

Plenty of Northern Europeans learned to dive independently of any South American influence.

Diving is far from the only form of cheating in football too.

Was making a general point about the background to diving / cheating. There will always be exceptions to the rule but in general the point is valid. Money and commercialization of the game also engenders a "win-at-all-costs" attitude which fosters even more cheating.
As others have said, the only fix is to ban players but if you were to nominate organisations well equipped to deal with unscrupulous behavour, FIFA would not immediately spring to mind..

Magico Gonzalez

garra wrote: »

The whole "cheating" thing comes back to cultural differences concerning the background of players. In most south american countries and in the latin european countries, the successful conning of a referee into awarding a penalty or card is seen as a job well done, getting one over on authority. In northern europe the view of such behaviour is the polar opposite, and while latin countries dominate football you have to respect the fact that these heralded qualities of subterfuge will pervade in the game.

Err, I live in South America, watch a lot of football here. Diving is frowned upon and disliked in exactly the same way as it is in Europe. You're falling for some pretty empty stereotypes, amigo.

Kirby

Quazzie wrote: »

So did Lallana dive when Flamini jumped up with him?

I cant recall the incident but i'm sure the answer is "yes". There is so much diving during a match that its hard to find a foul without it.

Why do you ask? Are you trying to score points or discuss diving? Coz point scoring is part of the problem.

greendom wrote: »

and I would say it's impossible to sanction a player for a dive when there is contact.

It's very possible. Contact is irrelevant to diving. They aren't related. You can tell when a player has dived and when he hasn't. The key is when he goes down by choice and this is always obvious. Like in this case with Sanchez. It's an obvious dive. He can stay on his feet after he's kicked. He chooses not to.

The serial divers can't hide. All the footage is there. Every club in the country has them. We see it every week in every game.

garra

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Err, I live in South America, watch a lot of football here. Diving is frowned upon and disliked in exactly the same way as it is in Europe. You're falling for some pretty empty stereotypes, amigo.

Maybe in your circles that is the case, having travelled and lived through various south american countries I would not share that view.

greendom

Kirby wrote: »

I cant recall the incident but i'm sure the answer is "yes". There is so much diving during a match that its hard to find a foul without it.

Why do you ask? Are you trying to score points or discuss diving? Coz point scoring is part of the problem.



It's very possible. Contact is irrelevant to diving. They aren't related. You can tell when a player has dived and when he hasn't. The key is when he goes down by choice and this is always obvious. Like in this case with Sanchez. It's an obvious dive. He can stay on his feet after he's kicked. He chooses not to.

The serial divers can't hide. All the footage is there. Every club in the country has them. We see it every week in every game.

I don't agree, there will usually be enough doubt to put off a ref from booking a player, once there is contact.

Kirby

greendom wrote: »

I don't agree, there will usually be enough doubt to put off a ref from booking a player, once there is contact.

That's a ref. We get to see it on a replay, he doesn't. We are talking about retrospective banning....the best way to deal with diving as they cant escape punishment and knowing this, will deter it.

Contact isn't a factor. Like when a player goes down like a sack of spuds after "contact" with another players head. We know it's not a headbutt.......yet is there contact? Of course. But we know he's faking to get another player sent off. The same with any tackle. Excuses like "Oh he's running at pace" or "Oh he was turning so was off balance" are boll*x and said by people with vested interests.

It's obvious when a player is faking. If you don't see it, it's because you don't want to.

Quazzie

Kirby wrote: »

I cant recall the incident but i'm sure the answer is "yes". There is so much diving during a match that its hard to find a foul without it.

Why do you ask? Are you trying to score points or discuss diving? Coz point scoring is part of the problem.

I was actually trying to discuss the match... ya know.. in the match thread. :rolleyes:


Also

Kirby wrote: »

I cant recall the incident

Kirby wrote: »

It's obvious when a player is faking. If you don't see it, it's because you don't want to.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one;

Magico Gonzalez

garra wrote: »

Maybe in your circles that is the case, having travelled and lived through various south american countries I would not share that view.

Well, you'd be wrong.

I'm sure you had a nice holiday, but I live here, permanent resident for years. I know people involved in coaching, I know people involved in player development and ...yeah, you're still wrong.

GavRedKing

I'm going to lock this up, its going in circles at the moment, IMO.

Its only 3 days to Santa and yere all getting coal :pac:

On the plus side its only 4 days until the Boxing Day fixtures, if ye want to talk about diving there is countless threads on the matter too.