And it's Sh!te from the Irish Mirror that's not helping us

clivej

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/one-20-owns-firearm-licensing-4841445

BillBen

Looked at it last night. The guards are going all out to get what they want banned.

harney

That was primarily statistics, what was the issue?

Cass

What were the issues? Let's see:

• The use of the word weapons, when we have firearms. My license says firearms license, not weapons license.
• The pictures are of a Beretta 9mm (cannot be licensed anymore), and an air cartridge pistol that looks like a real gun which if it were real it could not be licensed here anymore.
• The "dramatic" rise of 11%, when in fact there has been a 25%+ drop in the last 4 years from 244,000 to 178,000. It's only now lads are licensing "alternative" firearms.
• The picture of a man aiming a gun at the camera. Unnecessarily threatening posture.
• Th pie chart is wrong. There are not 2,000 handguns, and later in the article it says as much.
• The bastardised figures of 350 stolen firearms which does not break down that this includes lost guns, starting pistols, and "bulk" stolen guns from dealers.
• The "deadly" crossbows. A crossbow is classed as a restricted firearm (i sh*t you not) and the trouble to license one is so great i dare say you could count the number of them on both hands.
• The fact they go back 4, 5, 6, 7+ years to make the figures higher.
• They want changes so criminals cannot get a license. An Gardaí are responsible for issuing licenses so if a criminal (convicted) gets a license then it's an institutional failure on behalf of An Gardaí for not vetting that person.
• Lastly you have the likes of Niall Collins saying the process should bee toughened up. As per the other thread on the front page where the live debate was being watched all of the members of the committee said they had no experience with firearms, no knowledge of the basics (and i mean the for dummies basics) of the firearms laws, and did not understand that what they were calling for in terms of legislation already exists, it's simply not enforced by either AGS or the courts.

It's another hack job by a toilet paper rag. Unnecessarily sensationalist, use of skewed figures supplied by a force that wants all guns gone, lies, and inflammatory pictures/language.

The problem we have is they have the ear of such rags, and these types of stories make for great reading and the general public know nothing about firearms so cannot distinguish between the scumbags with illegal guns and us, the sports shooters, that have to:

• Apply for a license on a 9 page application
• Declare exactly what we want/have with serial numbers and traceability
• Sign away our medical privacy
• Give "no warrant"" search powers to AGS
• Have a 3 month background check done
• Have a spotless clean record (no convictions, not even public disorder)
• Have previous experience
• Have security that would rival/exceed some armories
• Allow for "on the spot" home checks
• Maintain memberships at the cost of hundreds/thousands of Euro per year
• Have where we can shot restricted to certain/one area

So other than all that, nothing is wrong. :mad:

harney

Cass wrote: »

What were the issues? Let's see:

So other than all that, nothing is wrong. :mad:

Had the OP not just link dropped and ran, but instead written 10% of what you have I would have thought typical rag and their normal sensationalism.

I was confused about the criminals getting a license, would you not be banned from getting a license if you have a conviction? If so, is it for all convictions or only certain types?

Sparks

harney wrote: »

I was confused about the criminals getting a license

That's because they don't licence their firearms

would you not be banned from getting a license if you have a conviction? If so, is it for all convictions or only certain types?

By law, you're banned from applying for a licence for certain types of crime. In practice (and supported by law), you're refused a licence for anything the Gardai think is serious.

Cass

harney wrote: »

Had the OP not just link dropped and ran, but instead written 10% of what you have I would have thought typical rag and their normal sensationalism.

Two things:

1. As shooters we all know what is currently going on so the thread needs no explaining. That is not meant as a derogatory remark towards those that don't frequent this forum or have firearms, but in the hype of all that is happening it's assumed we know what he means.
2. Thanks to the brain wave of Minister Sherlock the copyright laws in this country are a joke. The OP is not allowed to copy or even use part of the heading. He cannot quote more than 10 words, and as the article cannot be explained in such a short way the link is the safest, quickest and most legal way of highlighting what he wishes to discuss.

I was confused about the criminals getting a license, would you not be banned from getting a license if you have a conviction? If so, is it for all convictions or only certain types?

The only entitlement anyone has is the right to apply. However this does not extend to those that are disentitled. Sounds obvious, but that is how the law is. People that are disentitled cannot even apply but having a charge/conviction is not necessarily a "death sentence" when it comes to applying for a firearm. I mean if you have been charged for no tax or insurance on your car does this make you less safe to own a firearm? The key words here Intemperate Character. This covers

• Those with a criminal record (served time)
• Those with any convictions
• Those with NO convictions but with a history of public disorder issues.
• Those known to be unstable, but not from a mental illness point of view
• Those with mental health issues
• ETc,
• etc.

It covers a multitude of issues and allows for the Superintendent & Chief Superintendent to demand an interview before they sign off on an application as it is they who will be questioned if someone gets a license and abuses that privilege.

airuser

anything for a story.

Try applying for a Licence. Not that easy.

Sparks

1 in 20 have firearms licences.
Hm.
Given that not even the Gardai have that statistic, it seems odd to claim it as a fact...

juice1304

yes it would seem very off considering anyone i know who owns firearms owns multiple firearms, more spin.

riffmongous

Almost one in 20 people in Ireland owns a lethal weapon, we can reveal.

What a load of sensationalist ****, every single house in Ireland has numerous lethal weapons in their kitchen.

Sparks

riffmongous wrote: »

What a load of sensationalist ****, every single house in Ireland has numerous lethal weapons in their kitchen.

Not to mention, they were talking about licenced firearms when they said that.

I didn't know the Gardai would licence something you'd used to kill someone. I would have thought they'd just arrest any applicants...

sfakiaman

8,763 licences for semi-automatic and pump action shotguns. First time I heard that they kept a record of shotguns by action type. I suspect all the other figures quoted are just as unreliable.

Cass

Well considering i had/have license with incorrect labels, and only two days ago my mate got a license and on it the gun was classed as "Semi Auto Double Barrel". Coupled with the things i've said have happened to me (and no doubt others)..............

• A .22 rifle application licensed as a restricted revolver (after November 2008)
• 13 firearms licenses when i only owned 6 guns
• Two guns i sold, down to me even though one was exported
• A gun still licensed to me even though two others have a license on it as a different gun because i called it a CZ, the 2nd lad a Brno, and the last lad a CZ Brno. Same caliber, serial number, etc. throughout.
• A .308 shotgun
• A 12 g bolt action .243 rifle
• A silencer for my 9mm without applying for it
• A silencer for my shotgun without applying for it
• A license for a .22lr "suspended" as another lad had a gun with the same serial number. Even after bringing it into the station i was doubted, but no one had checked the other guy. In the end it was him at fault.

............... the firearm numbers are questionable at best.

Witcher

sfakiaman wrote: »

8,763 licences for semi-automatic and pump action shotguns. First time I heard that they kept a record of shotguns by action type. I suspect all the other figures quoted are just as unreliable.

You have to specify on the FCA1 whether it's a pump, s/a or double barrel.

Cass

You do, but we still rely on someone entering that into PULSE. See my post above.

killintime

fareplay to you cass your on the ball its a joy to read you Comments keep up the good work

aaakev

Strider wrote: »

You have to specify on the FCA1 whether it's a pump, s/a or double barrel.

My pump is down as a single barrel on my license even though i ticked the correct box....

Witcher

aaakev wrote: »

My pump is down as a single barrel on my license even though i ticked the correct box....

That's how they label pumps and s/a's. A lot of shotgun licences don't have a gauge on them either.

aaakev

Strider wrote: »

That's how they label pumps and s/a's. A lot of shotgun licences don't have a gauge on them either.

Exactly so they cant give an accurate number because they lump them in with the single barrels which there is probably a fair few knocking about in older farmers houses

Witcher

aaakev wrote: »

Exactly so they cant give an accurate number because they lump them in with the single barrels which there is probably a fair few knocking about in older farmers houses

Never said they could give an accurate number.

I was just replying to sfakiaman who said he didn't know they collected data on action types. The data is collected as we know but it's just not properly categorised.

ace86

from what I can recall recently the minster herself had no clue of stats what was stolen etc and was waiting from the gardai for some report and this toilet paper rag probably wouldn't even use it for that and they were able to print all the stats and figures that were quoted from the gardai themselves kind of gives a person insight what they really want and instead of protecting the public they are scaring and panicing the public with misinformed lies.

yubabill1

Strider wrote: »

Never said they could give an accurate number.

I was just replying to sfakiaman who said he didn't know they collected data on action types. The data is collected as we know but it's just not properly categorised.

That's the least of AGS' worries - isn't there a controversy going on about crime statistics and their recording on Pulse?

bpb101

Can somebody explain to be how sombody can purchases a fraction of a rifle? I didnt see a box on the application forms

or somebody can rob .01 of a shotgun

Only reason its there is to add 2 zeros
Also the red for danger for them mirror readers

Witcher

It's just the way the data was formatted.

I've used Datawrapper before myself and it adds .00 on to the end of numbers by default.

Chiparus

Amazing that the central statistics office don't believe the Guards, but the Mirror does?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-may-delay-crime-figures-over-concerns-on-garda-data-1.2004644


and this has been going on for years. this is from 2008!!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-massaging-crime-statistics-for-years-new-cso-report-shows-26441540.html



Here are some examples of the Gardai and figures!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-inspectorate-report-the-numbers-1.1998173

yubabill1

Now look at #firearms thefts with total number of burglaries per year:

Recorded Crime Offences (Number) by Type of Offence and Year


07 Burglary and related offences

2004 24913

2005 26381

2006 24788

2007 23603

2008 24682

2009 26910

2010 25420

2011 27695

2012 28133

2013 26185

Any evidence of licensed firearms holders being singled out by burglars?

Plus - how many crimes have been committed with licensed assault rifle lookalikes and licensed handguns since 2004 (when they became available again after a break since 1972)?

bpb101

Strider wrote: »

It's just the way the data was formatted.

I've used Datawrapper before myself and it adds .00 on to the end of numbers by default.

They dont try hard to remove it though . Its all just spin.

Kinda pissed they gave out that email , You have all the nut bags writing in

Grizzly 45

This is the kind of stuff that we have to get well out into the open and into our TDs politicans and members of this comittee..It is not us or the guns,that is the jingly bauble being held up to distract the comittee and the public.All the nasty assault rifles and handguns are what you must concentrate on..Dont look at our incompetance,in district court cases ,massaged crime figures,dodgy cheif superintendants under criminal investigation and poorly qualified ballistic experts,also under GSOC investigation.

As wel l as the minor fact AGS /DOJ owes us STILL about 4.5 million euros [ estimate ] of tax payers monies for the high court bills that is still being held up in the court taxing masters office,and 30 grand down in Limerick DC for those six cases too.[A cheque made out to cash would be grand thanks.] Plus the bill will be a lot higher than that once eveyrone starts taking court cases for compensation for their shotguns and CF stuff..Irrespective of their "legal advice" which BTW is utter rubbish under EU law and Irish law that none is due.
Now how do we get this info into the public eye that there already is ANOTHER bill due to State incompetance ,courtsey of a force that has had an annus horrilibusin 2014 in the public eye and intends to continue in 2015?

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This is the kind of stuff that we have to get well out into the open and into our TDs politicans and members of this comittee..It is not us or the guns,that is the jingly bauble being held up to distract the comittee and the public.All the nasty assault rifles and handguns are what you must concentrate on..Dont look at our incompetance,in district court cases ,massaged crime figures,dodgy cheif superintendants under criminal investigation and poorly qualified ballistic experts,also under GSOC investigation.

Would any reasonable impartial observer, with no knowledge about firearms or their licensing conclude after the hundreds of court cases and the statement by AGS representative at the justice committee on firearms licensing that public safety was the major concern of AGS in said cases, that AGS did not have a policy in the licensing of certain firearms?

I'm pretty sure they are not allowed to have an extra vires policy?

BattleCorp

yubabill1 wrote: »

Would any reasonable impartial observer, with no knowledge about firearms or their licensing conclude after the hundreds of court cases and the statement by AGS representative at the justice committee on firearms licensing that public safety was the major concern of AGS in said cases, that AGS did not have a policy in the licensing of certain firearms?

The problem is that the committee didn't appear to resemble anything close to being reasonable and impartial observers.