AVC's Secondary School Teacher

rainbowtrout

Emmser wrote: »

Dear fellow posters,

I come with bad news. My TUI rep contacted head office of TUI regarding my pension and yes the Corn Market representative was correct with my pension of 11k if I retire at 65. I will be in receipt of the OAP at 68 which will add another 12k. She said they provided her with a formula to assist in calculations and I will post this as soon as I get it from her. I actually would rather no backlash telling me my calculations are incorrect, but rather advise you to speak to the TUI or ASTI if you want to question it.

What final salary did they use to calculate this out of curiosity?

Because my back of an envelope calculation is as follows:

Point 25 on salary scale: 59,359

I'm assuming you have Hons Dip and Hons Degree: 1236 + 4918 = 6154

Together = 65513

For anyone that is on the top of the scale for 10 years or has 35 years service given, they are entitled to the long service allowance : 2324

Total: 67837

That would give a pension (including 12K OAP) of 33918



That's not taking any post holder duties into account, but not everyone gets one of those.

I have a special duties post (Allowance 3769) and if i never get a higher post and serve out the 40 years I would finish on a final salary of 71606 based on the figures above which would give a pension of 35803 (including the 12K OAP).

First calculation :

I do honestly believe they are doing their calculations based on your current salary. If you are teaching 7 years on full hours and have hons dip/degree based on the salary scale you are earning 46k per year or thereabouts.

Retiring on a final salary of 46k with 40 years full service would give a pension of 23K : 11K from teaching and 12K from OAP.



Second calculation:

If you told them your final salary was likely to be just under 60K, and you wanted to go at 55 (assuming preserved benefits), you will have 31 years service at that point

60K x 31/80 service = 23.5K which equates to 11.5 K pension and 12K OAP.

youngblood

Can anyone clarify, if you worked a temporary position pre 2004 but didnt fully qualify till after 2004 are you considered under the old scheme or new entrant
ie can you take early retirement!?!

rainbowtrout

Emmser wrote: »

I tried that calculator too and that's what made me think I was going to get 17k after the responses on this thread but clearly cornmarket and the TUI are using a different formula. I think the only way to be certain is to contact them like my rep did. That way you can be certain of your own case.

But this is my point (and the point of everyone else on the thread). We're not all individuals with individual cases. All our pensions are calculated on the 1/80 x years served basis. We all work off the same salary scales and same pension conditions. Granted there are three different salary scales now, and we also work off the basis of being pre 95, post 95, post 2004, or post 2013 employees. Aside from the post 2013 employees most of whom are NQTs and will get pension based on average career earnings, the majority of teachers probably fall into the post 95, post 2004 category. Our pensions are all calculated the same way the only difference being that post 2004 can't get their pension (preserved benefits) until they reach 65, if they chose to retire early. Pre 2004 can go on full service any time before 60 and get their pension straight away and can retire on a reduced pension from the age of 55 on.

So I don't see the point in ringing Cornmarket/TUI about my case or anyone else doing it either. The teachers who sit either side of me in the staffroom every day will have their pensions calculated in the exact same way as mine and I honestly can't see how your's could be so different.

rainbowtrout

youngblood wrote: »

Can anyone clarify, if you worked a temporary position pre 2004 but didnt fully qualify till after 2004 are you considered under the old scheme or new entrant
ie can you take early retirement!?!

It depends. Teachers who worked for VECs were considered qualified as you didn't need the dip to work for a VEC. If you subbed in a Dept school you wouldn't have been considered qualified. There were a few posts on another thread on the forum recently about teachers chasing it up with their unions, I think it was more to do with salary scales than retirement though.

Emmser

So I don't see the point in ringing Cornmarket/TUI about my case or anyone else doing it either. The teachers who sit either side of me in the staffroom every day will have their pensions calculated in the exact same way as mine and I honestly can't see how your's could be so different.[/quote]

Nice

spurious

Just as a point of information for any thinking of going early on a Cost Neutral basis, after 28 years and finishing as an A post, I got a lump sum of 65k and I have a pension of under 16k.
It's not a fortune, but I'm a long way from starving. I was feeling like the OP in another thread and I do not regret going (in the slightest).

r93kaey5p2izun

Emmser wrote: »

Dear fellow posters,

I come with bad news. My TUI rep contacted head office of TUI regarding my pension and yes the Corn Market representative was correct with my pension of 11k if I retire at 65. I will be in receipt of the OAP at 68 which will add another 12k. She said they provided her with a formula to assist in calculations and I will post this as soon as I get it from her. I actually would rather no backlash telling me my calculations are incorrect, but rather advise you to speak to the TUI or ASTI if you want to question it.

I am also post 2004. We had a Cornmarket rep out a couple days ago. He came up with the same figures for us - 11k pension with full service then OAP on top. I have to say I find this shocking and I just cannot see how the calculation is being made. I can see no official documentation to back this up. I'm very sceptical but worried.

feardeas

Hi

I rang ASTI after seeing the post on Monday. I explained my situation and was told that for people in my position [started Sep 04] pension will be based on final salary. The entire pot will be occupational plus state pension = half the final salary assuming 40 years service. I intend to email them with the details of this thread to confirm.

Geuze

Judson Full Ankle wrote: »

I am also post 2004. We had a Cornmarket rep out a couple days ago. He came up with the same figures for us - 11k pension with full service then OAP on top. I have to say I find this shocking and I just cannot see how the calculation is being made. I can see no official documentation to back this up. I'm very sceptical but worried.

Ask the Cornmarket sales rep to write down the calculations.

Bear in mind they have an incentive to twist the truth to make a sale.

Emmser

Check out the Irish times and you'll read regarding that 11k I told you about. They are referring to it as 'income poverty'.

evolving_doors

Emmser wrote: »

Check out the Irish times and you'll read regarding that 11k I told you about. They are referring to it as 'income poverty'.

Could you put in the section/title of the article so itll be easier to find. Was it the online or paper version. Cheers

rainbowtrout

I found the link

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-and-lecturers-may-take-strike-action-if-not-paid-equally-tui-forum-told-1.2167992


And it tells me nothing new:

Income poverty Mary Higgins, a teacher from Co Laois, spoke about
a permanent teacher who works in her school, with seven years’ experience, who was told she would be entitled to a pension of €11,000 a year after 40 years’ service. “This is surely income poverty,” she said.

Where did she get that information from? Who told her that? Did she read Emmser's post on this thread??? Is Emmser the teacher who works with Mary Higgins?

If teachers currently retiring were getting 11k after 40 years we would be hearing about it.

There is nothing new in that article Emmser.

Emmser

Okay fair enough. I am just stating all the figures that were put infront of me. I also met with a financial advisor privately after my meeting with a corn market representative as well as ringing my Union. All confirmed the figure, until obviously I'd also receive the government pension when I'd be of age.

rainbowtrout

Emmser wrote: »

Okay fair enough. I am just stating all the figures that were put infront of me. I also met with a financial advisor privately after my meeting with a corn market representative as well as ringing my Union. All confirmed the figure, until obviously I'd also receive the government pension when I'd be of age.

If all of these people have independently given you a figure of 11k, then please show us the calculations they used to get to this figure. I'm sure everyone else that contributed to this thread along with myself would love to know where it comes from.

Incidentally, the INTO have put together a calculator in excel on their website that teachers retiring post 2016 can put in their salary, years service and it displays your pension and lump sum. They are using the same calculation as we all have. INTO teachers are paid on the same scale as secondary school teachers before we get into that argument.

Emmser

Hi Rainbowtrout, so I rang Cornmarket:

PRSI Class A1 (anyone teaching since '95) 1/80 th of a salary figure minus x2 State Pension (at the moment I'm told it's €11975.60 and x2 this is €23951.20). So I assume as you said I'll end up on €65513 if I stayed the entire 40 years (which wasn't my intention hence the AVC's) which will give me a pension of €20,780.90 before the state pension.

Then at this point in the conversation with the Cornmarket representative I asked them why I was quoted 11k! They said that's different computer software that their representatives have going around to the schools so he can't verify any figures with me. Obviously though this Cornmarket representative that I met put my final salary down as 46k roughly speaking. I can't see any reason he would do that?

I'm going to try ring the man that actually did the consultation with me and ask him how he calculated the figure. I'll keep you all updated. It would be interesting to find if that other poster who was similarly quoted 11k had the same man from Cornmarket out to her school as we did.

2011abc

Why exactly are the teachers' unions promoting this company for decades ?Who benefits ?Because it certainly isnt teachers....

Emmser

I'm so disappointed because I started my AVC's based on this information. I still can't get through to him and have left another voice message. And why did the TUI agree with his calculations and yet Cornmarket office give me a different figure? Grrrr.

Geuze

Emmser wrote: »

I tried that calculator too and that's what made me think I was going to get 17k after the responses on this thread but clearly cornmarket and the TUI are using a different formula. I think the only way to be certain is to contact them like my rep did. That way you can be certain of your own case.

There's no need to ring anybody to estimate your future pension.

As long as you know the rules, you can estimate it yourself.

I would hope that the people entrusted with the education of our children can perform such calculations.

Geuze

Emmser wrote: »

Hi Rainbowtrout, so I rang Cornmarket:

PRSI Class A1 (anyone teaching since '95) 1/80 th of a salary figure minus x2 State Pension (at the moment I'm told it's €11975.60 and x2 this is €23951.20). So I assume as you said I'll end up on €65513 if I stayed the entire 40 years (which wasn't my intention hence the AVC's) which will give me a pension of €20,780.90 before the state pension.

Then at this point in the conversation with the Cornmarket representative I asked them why I was quoted 11k! They said that's different computer software that their representatives have going around to the schools so he can't verify any figures with me. Obviously though this Cornmarket representative that I met put my final salary down as 46k roughly speaking. I can't see any reason he would do that?

I'm going to try ring the man that actually did the consultation with me and ask him how he calculated the figure. I'll keep you all updated. It would be interesting to find if that other poster who was similarly quoted 11k had the same man from Cornmarket out to her school as we did.

Good post.

The 33k pension looks to be correct.

I see they gave you a lame excuse "different computer software" !!

As I said before - do not trust sales reps who have a massive incentive to mislead you.

We can all do the calculations here on the thread, given the correct data.

Geuze

Emmser wrote: »

Hi Rainbowtrout, so I rang Cornmarket:

PRSI Class A1 (anyone teaching since '95) 1/80 th of a salary figure minus x2 State Pension (at the moment I'm told it's €11975.60 and x2 this is €23951.20). So I assume as you said I'll end up on €65513 if I stayed the entire 40 years (which wasn't my intention hence the AVC's) which will give me a pension of €20,780.90 before the state pension.

With a final salary of 65,513 and 40 years service, the work pension will be:

[65,513 - (2 * annual CSP)](40/80)

Let's start:

The State Pension is 230.30 pw or 12,017.05 pa, based on 52.18 weeks.

So straight away Cornmarket are wrong.

We double the CSP, and get 24,034.11, and take that from the final salary.

65,513 - 24034.11 = nett adjusted salary 41478.89

If you have 40 years service and paid conts, you will get:

(40/80) * 41478.89 = 20,739 work pension

We add the 12,017 CSP (maybe payable at a different age), to arrive at 32,756 total pension.

That 32,756 is half of 65,513.

Emmser

I got through to the Cornmarket Represantive. Basically it is the Cost Neutral Panalties (for entrants after 04 that is affecting my pension). Say if I decided to go at 55 years of age, I'll be penalised 38% of my pension for the rest of my life (looked this up and think he might be slightly off on this figure) and 18% of my lump sum.

If I went after 40 years, I would only be 63 so therefore I'd receive penalties too (which are only implied on entrants since 04) because I'd be going too early. I checked these penalties up, 12% of my pension and 4% of my lump sum.

mirrorwall14

Well I for one am having slightly less of a panic attack now!

Rossdoc81

Just doing my sums here. I started teaching in 2006. I will have 40 years done when I'm 65.

For 40 years (Retire at 65):

67 837 - 2 * 12 017 (State Pension) * 40/80
67 837 - 24 034 * 40/80
43 803 * 40/80 = 21 901

Add in state pension of €12 017 to be paid at later date

This gives total: €33 918

Do these sums look right?

If you just go Final Salary * 40/80 you get the exact same figure

€67 837 * 40/80 = €33 918.


Does it also mean that we will have to go from age 65 to 68 with just our teaching pensions, and then get the top up of the state pension at 68? Can someone give me a definitive answer to this question as I have asked every teacher in our school and no one knows the answer.

Thanks
Ross

Emmser

Ross as far as I know that's correct.

Geuze

Rossdoc81 wrote: »

Does it also mean that we will have to go from age 65 to 68 with just our teaching pensions, and then get the top up of the state pension at 68? Can someone give me a definitive answer to this question as I have asked every teacher in our school and no one knows the answer.

Thanks
Ross

You get a supplementary pension while you wait for the CSP to start.

You will not suffer due to your PRSI class A status compared to your class D colleagues.

Geuze

Emmser wrote: »

I got through to the Cornmarket Represantive. Basically it is the Cost Neutral Panalties (for entrants after 04 that is affecting my pension). Say if I decided to go at 55 years of age, I'll be penalised 38% of my pension for the rest of my life (looked this up and think he might be slightly off on this figure) and 18% of my lump sum.

If I went after 40 years, I would only be 63 so therefore I'd receive penalties too (which are only implied on entrants since 04) because I'd be going too early. I checked these penalties up, 12% of my pension and 4% of my lump sum.

Okay, for post 2004 new entrants, they can't retire on full pension pre age 65, even with 40 years paid in?

Okay, so you would suffer actuarially reduced benefits if leaving within 10
years of the minimum pension age i.e. age 60 (or 65 for post-
2004 New Recruits)

My analysis above is for post 95 staff, but not post 2004 new entrants.

A current teacher can leave anytime after 60, with no reductions or conditions.

Rossdoc81

As far as I know pre 2004 you can draw down your pension from age 60.

Post 2004 we cannot draw down our pension until we are 65.

For both pre 2004 and post 2004 if you draw them down earlier you pension will be actuarially reduced. See the table in the bottom left of this PDF to see about actuarial reductions.
http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/When%20should%20I%20retire.pdf

What no one seems to be able to answer is if I retire at 65, will I have to live on just my teaching pension until 68, or do I get a supplementary pension until then?? (I am post 2004)

Can anyone answer this question?

rainbowtrout

Emmser wrote: »

Hi Rainbowtrout, so I rang Cornmarket:

PRSI Class A1 (anyone teaching since '95) 1/80 th of a salary figure minus x2 State Pension (at the moment I'm told it's €11975.60 and x2 this is €23951.20). So I assume as you said I'll end up on €65513 if I stayed the entire 40 years (which wasn't my intention hence the AVC's) which will give me a pension of €20,780.90 before the state pension.

Disaster averted then. The 40/80 rule is as it should be.

Emmser wrote: »

Then at this point in the conversation with the Cornmarket representative I asked them why I was quoted 11k! They said that's different computer software that their representatives have going around to the schools so he can't verify any figures with me. Obviously though this Cornmarket representative that I met put my final salary down as 46k roughly speaking. I can't see any reason he would do that?

Either:

1. He doesn't know how to do his job properly.
2. He was too damn lazy to work out what your salary would most likley be 30 years from now, realistically he should have known it if he is dealing with teachers all the time, he'd have an idea of what ballpark it is in.
3. Scare tactics to get you to sign up for an AVC by calculating it on your current salary of approx 46k.

To be fair, no. 3 is most likely and worked because you started this thread wondering why you would only get 11k after 40 years.

Software is a poor excuse for the major error in calculation.



Incidentally we had some woman in last year selling insurance of some sort last year or AVCs. I can't quite remember. Anyway she was making sure she met everyone on staff to let them know what she was selling, making herself available for appointments, but her line was a scare tactic. She was going around telling staff that they needed to buy whatever it was she was selling because by the time they got to retirement they wouldn't have much of a pension. She said the only teachers who would be OK were the ones who would earn 65k or more. She was particularly targeting the younger members of staff, who more than likely know a little less about pensions, are at the lower end of the scale and are a long way from 65k.

Anyway she got to me - she was talking to a group of us at break - and I told her I wasn't interested, financially I was fine etc. She took offence to this and basically told me that I couldn't possibly ever earn near 65k, none of us would be on that at retirement and I didn't know what I was talking about. I stuck to my guns. As I said in my earlier calculations, if I stick it out for the long haul and remain on special duties allowance for the remainder of my teaching years I'll retire on 71k salary. Plenty of other teachers in my staffroom in the exact same situation, yet she created a panic among many of them and they went off to meet her to talk about their situations.

rainbowtrout

Rossdoc81 wrote: »

As far as I know pre 2004 you can draw down your pension from age 60.

Post 2004 we cannot draw down our pension until we are 65.

For both pre 2004 and post 2004 if you draw them down earlier you pension will be actuarially reduced. See the table in the bottom left of this PDF to see about actuarial reductions.

What no one seems to be able to answer is if I retire at 65, will I have to live on just my teaching pension until 68, or do I get a supplementary pension until then?? (I am post 2004)

Can anyone answer this question?

I'm pre 2004. I started in 2001. I'll have 40 years done at 62. I can't honestly see myself at this for 40 years. Anyway, we can get the pension from the age of 60. If I go at 60 i'll have 38 years done so i'll get 38/80 * final salary. Same deal for the lump sum so it would be reduced because I wouldn't have the years worked up. That's where the AVC comes in.

Same deal if I go any time between 55-60. I'll have 33 years done at 55 so i'd get 33/80 * salary at retirement. Not having the years done automatically reduces the pension payout.

To answer your other question, to the best of my knowledge for post 2004 teachers the pension will not be paid out until you are 65 regardless of when you retire. 65 is the minimum retirement age for teachers on full pension for post 2004 teachers.

The thought of having to work past 65....

The Cost Neutral thing that Emmser mentioned:


Pre 2004 teachers can go at 50 and then their pension and lump sum is reduced by penalty. Spurious gave her example of this earlier on in the thread. The same Cost Neutral deal is available to post 2004 teachers too but only from the age of 55 onwards.

Which is much different to the deal the pre 2004 teachers are on which is the 33/80 * final salary at age 55.



So I guess the Cornmarket rep that Emmser originally spoke too, neglected to mention the cost neutral aspect of the deal but used the 11k as a scare tactic.

r93kaey5p2izun

Rossdoc I am in the same position as you.

State pension age is 68 if born after 1961 and compulsory retirement age no longer exists for post 2004 teachers. 65 is the minimum retirement age for "full pension". But like you I'm unsure if this means full including state pension (covered by supplementary) at that age, or full work pension at that age.

Unfortunately I think it is more likely means work pension only as no barriers to continuing work until eligibility for state pension at 68.

Geuze

Rossdoc81 wrote: »

As far as I know pre 2004 you can draw down your pension from age 60.

Post 2004 we cannot draw down our pension until we are 65.

For both pre 2004 and post 2004 if you draw them down earlier you pension will be actuarially reduced. See the table in the bottom left of this PDF to see about actuarial reductions.
http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/When%20should%20I%20retire.pdf

What no one seems to be able to answer is if I retire at 65, will I have to live on just my teaching pension until 68, or do I get a supplementary pension until then?? (I am post 2004)

Can anyone answer this question?

Work pension paid at age 65.

Due to you being class A, and not class D, then you must wait until age 68 to receive the CSP element of your overall pension.

So as to be fair to you, you will get a supplementary pension to top-up your work pension.

NB: there may be conditions attached to the supp pension.

Please check this out.

Rossdoc81

I got this from the Department website. Its about supplementary pensions:
http://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Services/Retirement-Pensions/Teaching-Staff/Supplementary-Pensions/Supplementary-Pension-Explanatory-Note.pdf

It says this which is good news:

"3.4 Supplementary pension is available, on application, to retirees in order to make up the shortfall in
pension for the period between date of retirement and the age of eligibility for State Pension (Transition)
or State Pension (Contributory) where the non payment of Social Welfare Benefits is through no fault of
the retiree. In the case of Cost Neutral Retirement, Supplementary Pension is not payable before age
60, when the above criteria apply – see Circular Pen 07/05 - SI 434 of 2009 and SI 435 of 2009 Article
60 (3)"

So it does seem we'll be topped up from when we retire at 65 until we get the state pension at 68.

Then it says this about how its calculated:

"Supplementary Pension is calculated, for each year of service, as 1/200th of such Final Annual Salary
as does not exceed the threshold of €40,056.83, together with (where appropriate) 1/80th of such
Final Annual Salary as does exceed the threshold."

My final salary will be €67 837 (without any post) so:

€67 837 * (40/200) = €13 567

Dunno if this is right because that's actually more than the state pension.

Anyone know if any of this is right or wrong?

rainbowtrout

I don't know if your calculation is right or not but 13k is in the ballpark region of the state pension anyway.

What I don't understand is the big hullaballoo about not paying us the state pension until 65-68 (depending on when you retire but for most people here 68), but they will pay the supplementary one which essentially amounts to the same thing.

Moody_mona

Have a cornmarket guy in at the moment quoting the 11k for post 2004 entrants on a slideshow presentation. Thank you to all contributers to this thread; I wasn't scaremongered into anything and I have much more of an understanding of pensions that this guy apparently.

Geuze

It's scary that they can go from school to school misleading teachers.

It's also scary that teachers, who are meant to be very educated, can be taken in by sales reps driven by commission.