Are Irish men too subservient? - See Mod warning in post 52

The Masculinist

A thread in PI got me thinking. Are Irish men too subservient? I have friends from Spain, Italy, Latvia, Croatia, Hungary etc. and they all appear to be much more dominant when it comes to how they treat their girlfriends, wives and partners. Indeed some of them have even said to me that they feel Irish men are too subservient (they even extend this to British men also). Perhaps it is a cultural thing? Having dated both Irish and foreign (Spanish and Czech) women, the foreign GFs all had the same opinion. They also said that they preferred me to most Irish men because I knew how to "treat them like a woman" and didn't give in to everything they wanted.

Some examples I have seen are as follows;

Croatian friend "I would never allow my GF to hang around with her ex BFs, it is bad news!" (said relating to a friend whose Irish GF continues to be good friends with her ex)

Spanish friend "Why are you cooking and cleaning all of the time" (Said in relation to a friend who does all of the house work)

Ex GF (Czech), "I generally don't find Irish guys attractive, they spend too much time trying to please their GF and don't lead them. For example, the girls at work expect engagement rings to the value of €5k+ and they say that their BFs would buy them no problem!"

Of course this is a mass generalisation, but it appears that Irish men are a bit more subservient that European counterparts from what I have seen!

Iranoutofideas

Agree. Any of my friends in relationships are all totally whipped. It's ridiculous.

I don't expect it to be 100% the reverse either.

The Masculinist

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

Agree. Any of my friends in relationships are all totally whipped. It's ridiculous.

I don't expect it to be 100% the reverse either.

I have a friend who has basically disappeared since he met his first GF a few years ago. Whenever you want to meet up he is always busy doing something with his GF. Whenever he can actually make it, she will generally tag along (if it suits her). While when she goes out with her friends, he is told to stay at home.

It is crazy, she is not that good looking either and doesn't bring a lot to the table personality wise. I have told him to man up and stand up to her but he just laughs it off and returns to his usual self.

desbrook

I only know a few people from Eastern Europe but all said that women in Ireland have a lot of power generally not just in relationships. Their experience - not mine

PucaMama

desbrook wrote: »

I only know a few people from Eastern Europe but all said that women in Ireland have a lot of power generally not just in relationships. Their experience - not mine

we cant be having that now. cheek of those women expecting to have power. awfull.

seamus

Do you mean that Irish men are generally more egalitarian and less sexist than their eastern european & mediterranean counterparts?

Because yeah, I'd say so.

Mediterraneans especially, they're assholes to women.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The Masculinist wrote: »

Some examples I have seen are as follows;

Croatian friend "I would never allow my GF to hang around with her ex BFs, it is bad news!" (said relating to a friend whose Irish GF continues to be good friends with her ex)

Spanish friend "Why are you cooking and cleaning all of the time" (Said in relation to a friend who does all of the house work)

Ex GF (Czech), "I generally don't find Irish guys attractive, they spend too much time trying to please their GF and don't lead them. For example, the girls at work expect engagement rings to the value of €5k+ and they say that their BFs would buy them no problem!"

Of course this is a mass generalisation, but it appears that Irish men are a bit more subservient that European counterparts from what I have seen!

The last one, yes. The others seem to have a weak need to be the master of someone.

Beyond that, why does anyone have to be dominant in a relationship? Whatever happaned to equal responsibilities? I'm not in a relationship at the moment, but in the past I never had a say whether the gf saw her ex-boyfriends - nor should I have - and nor did one have (or be allowed to have!!) a problem with me seeing one of mine. If you can't trust someone don't get into a realtionship with them. I enjoy cooking and most of the time the cleaning was split 50/50 (or dumped on the kids ).

The Masculinist

PucaMama wrote: »

we cant be having that now. cheek of those women expecting to have power. awfull.

Have had close relations with Eastern Europeans I can testify that they have plenty power. They just know how to use it while still respecting their man and allowing him to use his power in an appropriate manner.

The Masculinist

seamus wrote: »

Do you mean that Irish men are generally more egalitarian and less sexist than their eastern european & mediterranean counterparts?

Because yeah, I'd say so.

Mediterraneans especially, they're assholes to women.

I think that is a pretty damning negative stereotype to apply to Mediterraneans. I have plenty of Spanish and Italian friends and I wouldn't call them sexist. I do think that they will only date women who respect them more though.

I don't think insisting that your OH chips in for her fair share of the housework or expecting a reasonably priced engagement ring is sexist.

PucaMama

The Masculinist wrote: »

Have had close relations with Eastern Europeans I can testify that they have plenty power. They just know how to use it while still respecting their man and allowing him to use his power in an appropriate manner.

you can respect someone without turning into a doormat whats this "power" anyway? do you think men have this automatic right to be the dominant partner in a relationship? what are your main reasons for thinking women should be subservient but not men?

smcgiff

The Masculinist wrote: »

Have had close relations with Eastern Europeans I can testify that they have plenty power. They just know how to use it while still respecting their man and allowing him to use his power in an appropriate manner.

Name change to Fantasist might be in order. Foreign women love to be subservient, right.

The Masculinist

PucaMama wrote: »

you can respect someone without turning into a doormat whats this "power" anyway? do you think men have this automatic right to be the dominant partner in a relationship?

I never said that. I think both sexes require a level of respect. I think a man should respect his woman as a lady. He should not expect her to be a slave to him and should support her emotionally.

Likewise, women need to do the same for their men. For example, sharing the housework and so on.

PucaMama wrote: »

what are your main reasons for thinking women should be subservient but not men?

You are putting words in my mouth. Can you show me where I said that?

stuboy01

Once read a funny quote in a book
"women spend the early years trying to change a man only to end up complaining that they don't know where the man they married has gone in the layer years"

The Masculinist

smcgiff wrote: »

Name change to Fantasist might be in order. Foreign women love to be subservient, right.

I don't think I ever said that? The thread is about Irish men being too subservient if you read it correctly.

PucaMama

The Masculinist wrote: »

I never said that. I think both sexes require a level of respect. I think a man should respect his woman as a lady. He should not expect her to be a slave to him and should support her emotionally.

Likewise, women need to do the same for their men. For example, sharing the housework and so on.



You are putting words in my mouth. Can you show me where I said that?

the bit that stands out for me is the "not giving in to every thing she wanted" why does she need your permission :rolleyes: why the support for the other ideas like not allowing a gf to see her ex?

as for the respecting her as a lady, try treating her as an equal human first, not being "dominant" because of what you possess between your legs

Nunu

Yes, the majority are too subservient.
A personal example: my uncle is separated. He has been in a new relationship for 18 months. After already RSVPing that they will be attending our wedding he tells me it doesn't look like they'll be attending now. The reason? His partner is not going now because his 2 daughters, also attending, don't talk to her.
Pistol whipped.

Manach

Perhaps being Irish there is an inbuilt subsumtion of the prevailing ethos. This Zeutgeist seems to be a radical egalitarianism which betokens no deviation from the rather dismissive attitude to both families and men - social engineering at its finest so as to destroy the superstructure by undermining the base.

seamus

The Masculinist wrote: »

I think that is a pretty damning negative stereotype to apply to Mediterraneans.

A mass generalisation, even? Yeah

Sleepy

Honestly, looking at some of my friends, I'd say they are fairly subservient to their girlfriends / wives. Far too many of them seem to spend the majority of their time pandering to their other half's interests: watching horrible soap operas / reality TV, cleaning up after them, making excuses for their poor behaviour etc.

Then again, I have other friends whose husbands/boyfriends behave like teenagers and don't understand how they put up with them either... and I think most of your examples of "subservience" are bull**** machismo that represent less developed (i.e. more religious) societies than 21st century Ireland.

I'm still friends with my exe's and my step-son's father stood for me as a groomsman during our wedding. Only insecure people have a problem with their partners remaining friends with exe's imo.

Nothing wrong with a man doing all the house-work if the woman contributes in other ways. Personally, I'd rather cook than ask my wife to do it for me: I find the whole process of cooking stress-relieving and, due to my having a greater interest in the topic than her, tend to be better at it.

The Masculinist

PucaMama wrote: »

the bit that stands out for me is the "not giving in to every thing she wanted" why does she need your permission :rolleyes: why the support for the other ideas like not allowing a gf to see her ex?

as for the respecting her as a lady, try treating her as an equal human first, not being "dominant" because of what you possess between your legs

I gave examples of what my foreign friends/sexual partners have said in the past. They believe allowing your partner to see his/her ex as a bad idea and don't condone it.

With regards treating someone as an equal human being, I am not sure why you are turning a thread relating to Irish men being subservient into a thread relating to treating people as equals? Can you point out where in my posts I have advocated men treating their partners in an unequal manner?

The Masculinist

seamus wrote: »

A mass generalisation, even? Yeah

Yes, well done. My initial post even acknowledged this and it is open for debate. I am seeking other people's opinions on the matter to get a more broad view. Thanks for your input seamus.

Iranoutofideas

The Masculinist wrote: »

I have a friend who has basically disappeared since he met his first GF a few years ago. Whenever you want to meet up he is always busy doing something with his GF. Whenever he can actually make it, she will generally tag along (if it suits her). While when she goes out with her friends, he is told to stay at home.

It is crazy, she is not that good looking either and doesn't bring a lot to the table personality wise. I have told him to man up and stand up to her but he just laughs it off and returns to his usual self.

I think we have the same friend.

strandroad

The Masculinist wrote: »

Have had close relations with Eastern Europeans I can testify that they have plenty power. They just know how to use it while still respecting their man and allowing him to use his power in an appropriate manner.

I know plenty of Polish women who have Irish partners because traditional Polish guys would not treat them well, especially if they used to live in towns or villages and not cities. It's still very much a tradition to stick to the house and kids for a woman there, even if she can decide about house furnishings or clothes that's where it ends. Fathers would not leave their business to daughters, only sons etc.

PucaMama

The Masculinist wrote: »

I gave examples of what my foreign friends/sexual partners have said in the past. They believe allowing your partner to see his/her ex as a bad idea and don't condone it.

With regards treating someone as an equal human being, I am not sure why you are turning a thread relating to Irish men being subservient into a thread relating to treating people as equals? Can you point out where in my posts I have advocated men treating their partners in an unequal manner?

you want to shift the balance, to change things, so if you think men being subservient and women having power is wrong then you must want men having power? and women subservient? you said yourself these men your friends are "much more dominant" with their gfs etc is this what you want?

seamus

Nunu wrote: »

Yes, the majority are too subservient.
A personal example: my uncle is separated. He has been in a new relationship for 18 months. After already RSVPing that they will be attending our wedding he tells me it doesn't look like they'll be attending now. The reason? His partner is not going now because his 2 daughters, also attending, don't talk to her.
Pistol whipped.

That's making a bit of an assumption. It may be that he doesn't want to speak to his daughters either until they give up their childish game.

The Masculinist wrote: »

I gave examples of what my foreign friends/sexual partners have said in the past. They believe allowing your partner to see his/her ex as a bad idea and don't condone it.

Believing that you have the power to "allow" your partner to see someone else is a problem to begin with.
Your partner having the freedom to speak to whomever they want doesn't mean that you're subservient.

With regards treating someone as an equal human being, I am not sure why you are turning a thread relating to Irish men being subservient into a thread relating to treating people as equals? Can you point out where in my posts I have advocated men treating their partners in an unequal manner?

"Subservient" by definition implies inequality.
You can reasonably start a discussion about whether Irish men are equal in their relationships, but all of the examples you gave were of non-Irish people being "dominant" rather than egalitarian.

Therefore the assumption must be made that you feel that dominance is more correct for men.

The Masculinist

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly, looking at some of my friends, I'd say they are fairly subservient to their girlfriends / wives. Far too many of them seem to spend the majority of their time pandering to their other half's interests: watching horrible soap operas / reality TV, cleaning up after them, making excuses for their poor behaviour etc.

Then again, I have other friends whose husbands/boyfriends behave like teenagers and don't understand how they put up with them either... and I think most of your examples of "subservience" are bull**** machismo that represent less developed (i.e. more religious) societies than 21st century Ireland.

I'm still friends with my exe's and my step-son's father stood for me as a groomsman during our wedding. Only insecure people have a problem with their partners remaining friends with exe's imo.

Nothing wrong with a man doing all the house-work if the woman contributes in other ways. Personally, I'd rather cook than ask my wife to do it for me: I find the whole process of cooking stress-relieving and, due to my having a greater interest in the topic than her, tend to be better at it.

Fair point. The examples are not mine. I do wonder how you can believe societies are less developed simpl because they have a religious ethos? So you are saying former superpowers like Spain and Italy are less developed relative to Ireland? That is an interesting point which I cannot agree with!

With regard being friends with an ex, I don't think it is a good idea personally as there is always history and tension so I tend to agree with my friend on that one. I generally cut ties with an ex. Of course that would be very different if a child or a significant asset (such as a house which tied us both down with a mortgage etc.) was involved.

smcgiff

The Masculinist wrote: »

I have friends from Spain, Italy, Latvia, Croatia, Hungary etc. and they all appear to be much more dominant when it comes to how they treat their girlfriends, wives and partners.

The Masculinist wrote: »

Having dated both Irish and foreign (Spanish and Czech) women, the foreign GFs all had the same opinion.

The Masculinist wrote: »

"I generally don't find Irish guys attractive, they spend too much time trying to please their GF and don't lead them.

You've either a very high opinion of yourself or a low opinion of women - probably both now that I think of it.

The Masculinist

smcgiff wrote: »

You've either a very high opinion of yourself or a low opinion of women - probably both now that I think of it.

I do have a high opinion of myself. I am proud of who I am and I am generally confident. This is based on what I have achieved in life, how I treat others, the friends I have and my current beautiful, kind and caring Girlfriend. I am pretty sure in my own skin, I don't think that is a crime now is it?

I believe women are beautiful and I treat them with respect.

Please bear in mind that what I have posted are comments others have said to me!

lazybones32

Couldn't agree more!
The closer you get to the Iron Curtain, the more the women want their Men to be Men. I've met Czech, Slovene, Bosnian (they were fine) Slovak and Polish women who don't like Irish men because of this attribute of being afraid to displease a woman a.k.a. having a backbone and not bending over to please her (or not offend her in anyway)

Is it something do do with too much mothering? or should dad teach his boys better?

The Masculinist

seamus wrote: »

That's making a bit of an assumption. It may be that he doesn't want to speak to his daughters either until they give up their childish game.

Believing that you have the power to "allow" your partner to see someone else is a problem to begin with.
Your partner having the freedom to speak to whomever they want doesn't mean that you're subservient.

Perhaps this is a colloquialism I am using. Of course I can't stop my GF speaking to whoever she wants, but I might not like it and this will generally end the relationship. For example, my girlfriend would prefer that I would speak with a girl who my GF thinks fancies me and who openly flirts with me. I respect my GF's wishes on this one as that particular friend is a bit of a "prick tease" and tends to enjoy flirting with men in relationships.

Likewise, I don't like my GF being friends with her ex, hence she isn't.

smcgiff

The Masculinist wrote: »

I believe women are beautiful and I treat them with respect.

Please bear in mind that what I have posted are comments others have said to me!

But you're wondering if Irish men are subservient because they don't dominate and lead women. You even believe that's what women want.

And, you really should write your above sentence as follows... 'and I treat them with respect, in my opinion.' because I'm finding it hard to believe that from what you have written.

The Masculinist

lazybones32 wrote: »

Couldn't agree more!
The closer you get to the Iron Curtain, the more the women want their Men to be Men. I've met Czech, Slovene, Bosnian (they were fine) Slovak and Polish women who don't like Irish men because of this attribute of being afraid to displease a woman a.k.a. having a backbone and not bending over to please her (or not offend her in anyway)

Is it something do do with too much mothering? or should dad teach his boys better?

Great to hear this. I have met Czech, Croatian and Slovenien women who all have the same opinion. They were all certainly easy on the eye too and very feminine!

I believe the English speaking media has a lot to blame for it. That and Irish mammies generally nagging their husbands to death...

The Masculinist

smcgiff wrote: »

But you're wondering if Irish men are subservient because they don't dominate and lead women. You even believe that's what women want.

And, you really should write your above sentence as follows... 'and I treat them with respect, in my opinion.' because I'm finding it hard to believe that from what you have written.

Perhaps our definition of respect differs. The word "being a doormat for your OH" is not part of mine.

smcgiff

The Masculinist wrote: »

The word "being a doormat for your OH" is not part of mine.

Dictating who she can and cannot see suggests otherwise.

Sleepy

The Masculinist wrote: »

Fair point. The examples are not mine. I do wonder how you can believe societies are less developed simpl because they have a religious ethos? So you are saying former superpowers like Spain and Italy are less developed relative to Ireland? That is an interesting point which I cannot agree with!

Religion has pretty warped ideas on many things, the role of women in society being a fairly major one imo.

As such, I find a fairly obvious correlation between the level of religion in a country and the level of social development. At one extreme, you'd have the social norms of Islamic states in the middle east where women are literally property, while at the other the Scandinavian states where women are on the verge of (or already holding?) superior legal rights to men.

With regard being friends with an ex, I don't think it is a good idea personally as there is always history and tension so I tend to agree with my friend on that one. I generally cut ties with an ex. Of course that would be very different if a child or a significant asset (such as a house which tied us both down with a mortgage etc.) was involved.

It depends on the relationship tbh. If you split up simply because things just ran their course, you were too young to be in a relationship, because you weren't sexually compatible etc. there's no reason not to remain friends imo.

If it was a relationship based only on sexual attraction, one that ended badly or with one party devastated, it's obviously an awful idea to try and remain friends though.

strandroad

The Masculinist wrote: »

I do have a high opinion of myself. I am proud of who I am and I am generally confident. This is based on what I have achieved in life, how I treat others, the friends I have and my current beautiful, kind and caring Girlfriend. I am pretty sure in my own skin, I don't think that is a crime now is it?

I believe women are beautiful and I treat them with respect.

That's cool, but if a woman is less focused on being beautiful and caring, and more on progress or enterpreneurship, she does not need to be 'led' by her partner and southern/eastern machismo would not work for her. Irish women seem fairly confident so 'led by a man' culture did not catch here. Communication and humour seems to be much better among the Irish in general so it might be an extention of that - try any posturing and you're setting yourself up for slagging.

phater phagan

Men who wish to dominate women are generally lacking in self-confidence and inner moral strength. They are also usually not at the higher level of the intelligence quotient, and are not very much fun to be around either ( lacking in humour and wit ). A man who is strong in character does not need to upgrade his sense of well-being by degrading others. Many women who stay with such men are unhappy and lack self-confidence like their male partner. A smart confident woman wants a smart confident man and vice versa - someone who is also fun to be around. There now.

The Masculinist

mhge wrote: »

That's cool, but if a woman is less focused on being beautiful and caring, and more on progress or enterpreneurship.

I want a woman who is both. If they are not, then they are not for me. I have dated an Eastern European who was making steps to run her own business while she was still beautiful and kept a good home.

It doesn't not have to be one of the other, beauty and progress/entrepreneurship can co exist.

Westernyelp

The Masculinist wrote: »

I do have a high opinion of myself. I am proud of who I am and I am generally confident. This is based on what I have achieved in life, how I treat others, the friends I have and my current beautiful, kind and caring Girlfriend. I am pretty sure in my own skin, I don't think that is a crime now is it?

I believe women are beautiful and I treat them with respect.

Please bear in mind that what I have posted are comments others have said to me!

The comments you are making would contradict your claim of high self confidence

The Masculinist

phater phagan wrote: »

Men who wish to dominate women are generally lacking in self-confidence and inner moral strength. They are also usually not at the higher level of the intelligence quotient, and are not very much fun to be around either ( lacking in humour and wit ). A man who is strong in character does not need to upgrade his sense of well-being by degrading others. Many women who stay with such men are unhappy and lack self-confidence like their male partner. A smart confident woman wants a smart confident man and vice versa - someone who is also fun to be around. There now.

Agree. I don't think we are talking about degrading anyone here.

strandroad

The Masculinist wrote: »

I want a woman who is both. If they are not, then they are not for me. I have dated an Eastern European who was making steps to run her own business while she was still beautiful and kept a good home.

It doesn't not have to be one of the other, beauty and progress/entrepreneurship can co exist.

Yeah, good luck with running a business when your man expects you to keep a good home and be beautiful for him while he leads you.

The Masculinist

Westernyelp wrote: »

The comments you are making would contradict your claim of high self confidence

Can you give me some examples and explain why instead of making a blanket statement like that?

smcgiff

phater phagan wrote: »

There now.

Indeed, you're a man of few posts, but if the rest are as sage as this one I welcome them.

The Masculinist

I think my question has been answered nicely by the above posts. The majority of Irish men are more subservient than many European counterparts it appears. In fact, it appears that they like to be and defend/support the practice. Thanks for everyone's input, it was informative.

smcgiff

The Masculinist wrote: »

Can you give me some examples and explain why instead of making a blanket statement like that?

Followed by you scuttling away...

The Masculinist wrote: »

I think my question has been answered nicely by the above posts. The majority of Irish men are more subservient than many European counterparts it appears. In fact, it appears that they like to be and defend/support the practice. Thanks for everyone's input, it was informative.

Westernyelp

The Masculinist wrote: »

Can you give me some examples and explain why instead of making a blanket statement like that?

You are quiet good at blanket statements yourself, however, I was referring to your need to Assign strict roles and rules in your relationships, regarding who your partner may speak to and what they should do. this is controlling and the sign of a weak or unconfident person in my view.

The Masculinist

smcgiff wrote: »

Followed by you scuttling away...

Not scutting away. I asked a question and it was answered. I can stick around to field your questions should you wish. Perhaps you should answer my previous question first.

smcgiff

The Masculinist wrote: »

Perhaps you should answer my previous question first.

Which one was that?

The Masculinist

Westernyelp wrote: »

You are quiet good at blanket statements yourself, however, I was referring to your need to Assign strict roles and rules in your relationships, regarding who your partner may speak to and what they should do. this is controlling and the sign of a weak or unconfident person in my view.

I respect your views. Surely someone how is powerful requires a degree of confidence? I don't like my partner being friends with her ex. If she would like a one of meeting to discuss something with him, fine. I just don't want the guy hanging around. In my opinion, men who are friends with women generally want something other than friendship. Any women I am friends with, I generally would "have my way" with them should the time arise and should I be single. So to be honest, I think it is a bad idea.

Likewise my current GF believes that it is a bad idea for a man to be friendly with his ex. Fair enough, I respect that.

The Masculinist

smcgiff wrote: »

Which one was that?

I repeat:

Can you give me some examples and explain why instead of making a blanket statement like that?

Pat Mustard

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