Another black teenager shot by police in St Louis

The_Valeyard

Dan_Solo wrote: »

FTFY.

I doubt it, this culture of police hate is going to get more people killed.

Lets see what the cctv shows.

Dan_Solo

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I doubt it, this culture of police hate is going to get more people killed.

Lets see what the cctv shows.

I'm saying it's what the police claim, you're saying you believe the police from the off.
I know which one of us is more interested in waiting for the CCTV.

irelandrover

Egginacup wrote: »

Read this report:

https://mxgm.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Operation-Ghetto-Storm.pdf

It's 130 pages and it provides links and sources to it's findings.

Read the reasons for the 313 killings of black males. The majority of them were unarmed. Nearly a third of the killings started out with the cop citing "suspicious behaviour or appearance". Suspicious APPEARANCE?

14% were shot dead for running away from cops. And if anyone says "they shouldn't have run" then you ought to have your head tested or go sit in a room an be quiet for a very long time.

That's where i thought you were going. 136 unarmed. I'm not sure even you can say that 136 out of 313 is a majority.
All these deaths were not people shot.

Again, why include vigilantes in this discussion? What exactly does that add?

BorneTobyWilde

You can't believe anything the police put out there or the friends and family put out there.

The_Valeyard

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I know which one of us is more interested in waiting for the CCTV.

No, you dont.

BorneTobyWilde

CCTV will go missing like a cupcake in a room with a fat boy .

Dan_Solo

The_Valeyard wrote: »

No, you dont.

You said from the off you believed the cops, so sorry, we do.
Hard luck on that. Evidence is annoying isn't it?

Wanderer2010

I understand that each case of an officer fearing for his/her life is different but would they never consider a shot or two to the legs - that way completely immobilizing the suspect in order to arrest them and not going straight for the kill shot. And these cops seem to not only fire one or twice, but several times! I think death is pretty much inevitable after 2 shots, why do they have to go so gung-ho?

At least a shot to the leg would resolve the situation and nobody would have to die.

Molester Stallone II

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I understand that each case of an officer fearing for his/her life is different but would they never consider a shot or two to the legs - that way completely immobilizing the suspect in order to arrest them and not going straight for the kill shot. And these cops seem to not only fire one or twice, but several times! I think death is pretty much inevitable after 2 shots, why do they have to go so gung-ho?

At least a shot to the leg would resolve the situation and nobody would have to die.

I shoot you in the leg, you can still shoot back at me

JaseBelleVie

I am biased in this. I always will be. Both of my grandfathers were a police officers. Over 70 years of combined service with An Garda Síochána and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

I never got to know my grandfather from Canada (he died when I was 3), but I've heard stories, seen photographs, read his journals and so on. My Irish grandfather died when I was 10, but I always remember his stories of the days of policing in Ireland from the 1940's up to the 1980's. Both of my grandfathers retired from their respective police forces in the 1980's. Honourable, decent men who formed part of that thin blue line between order and chaos.

While the times are different and the country in question is different, people generally take the men and women of the police forces for granted. For sure, we all bitch and moan about the shoddiness of the police force and of how incompetent and useless they are. But at the first sign of trouble, who to we go running to to help us?

Even back in the 1970's and 80's, from reading through journals and hearing the stories, policing was stressful and tough enough as it was. I can only imagine as we've gone through the 90's, 00's and now into the 2010's, that it has only ratcheted up in intensity, stress and danger. Even here in Ireland, the job for the Gardaí has gotten more and more dangerous. While the threat of the IRA from the 70's and 80's has lessened, the threat from armed criminals and even syringe toting criminals has jumped.

In America, every single police officer is armed. The ease with which a criminal can lay their hands on a gun is frightening. This mixture is deadly.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the police. You put yourself into the shoes of a police officer on the beat in America. Anywhere in America. From the smallest hamlet to the biggest cities. These are men and women with families, with children. They respond to a call that a person is waving a gun around. Their first thought is not going to be about diffusing the situation in order to preserve the life of the gunman. Their first thought is going to be "Will this be the call that leaves my wife/husband a widow(er) and my children without a mother/father?".

Argue all you want about shooting legs, arms, whatever and not shooting to kill. In the single, split second that these officers have to make a decision in order to try and solve the situation and to try and make sure they themselves do not get killed, it is an impossibility to understand the crippling fear of death they must feel. Especially if the gunman is younger (more volatile), under duress, under the influence of drugs or if they are carrying out a robbery (or similar). Desperate and/or volatile gunmen are dangerous to everyone, not just the police officers.

Yes, tragedies have occurred (the 12 year old shot dead by police officers recently being a prime example). However, this child was waving a "gun" around in a playground. A member of the public called this in. People in Ireland balked at the idea of a child getting a gun. Google "Kayla Rolland". Kayla Rolland was a six year old girl who was shot dead in her school. By a six year old boy. Kids in America can have access to guns and have used them in the past. Police officers know this. They are on edge all the time, and it leads to tragedies such as this. If the police officers hesitate too long in taking action, they end up dead. If they act too rashly, tragedy strikes. There is no happy medium. How are they to know if a gun is real or not? In the seconds they have to evaluate the situation, there is not time for second guessing. Second guessing will get you killed if you are a police officer in America.

We are blessed in this country in that we do not have an armed police force. We do not have a huge arsenal of automatic and semi-automatic weapons lying around our houses and businesses. America is a basket case. But America's police officers are targets like never before. For sure, some police officers should be f*cked out of the force due to their simply being vicious bastards. But most police officers are dedicated, hard-working people, who are there to "Protect and Serve". They do the unthinkable and unenviable things, so the rest of us do not have to. They protect the decent people of society from the scum of society. They keep us safe. They help us in our hour of need.

And how do we repay them? Usually with abuse and criticism, and most of it unwarranted.

bear1

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I understand that each case of an officer fearing for his/her life is different but would they never consider a shot or two to the legs - that way completely immobilizing the suspect in order to arrest them and not going straight for the kill shot. And these cops seem to not only fire one or twice, but several times! I think death is pretty much inevitable after 2 shots, why do they have to go so gung-ho?

At least a shot to the leg would resolve the situation and nobody would have to die.

The flaw I can see with that (btw I was also thinking this before) would be that the person would still have the ability to use a weapon.
Hit an artery in the leg and that person could well die as well.
America grew up with the gun all around them and so everyone seems to think they can be Dirty Harry on the streets.
I suggested before about curtailing the law regarding gun ownership but the more I think of it the more I can see how much of a disaster that would be for them.
Gun groups would never allow it to happen.

mark13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15vqUf6H-po

CCTV of the shooting, it cuts off right before the shooting occurs, but you can make out the teen pointing his gun at the officer.

Dan_Solo

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I understand that each case of an officer fearing for his/her life is different but would they never consider a shot or two to the legs - that way completely immobilizing the suspect in order to arrest them and not going straight for the kill shot. And these cops seem to not only fire one or twice, but several times! I think death is pretty much inevitable after 2 shots, why do they have to go so gung-ho?

At least a shot to the leg would resolve the situation and nobody would have to die.

Hard to plant a gun and make up a story when the guy is still alive.

bennyl10

mark13 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15vqUf6H-po

CCTV of the shooting, it cuts off right before the shooting occurs, but you can make out the teen pointing his gun at the officer.

Case closed. Right call by police!

bear1

^^^ Right, so the kid pointed the gun right at the officers face from the looks of it.
Pure him or me scenario.

bennyl10

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Hard to plant a gun and make up a story when the guy is still alive.

Suggest you watch the video Mr solo..

Nothing planted or made up, or is the CCTV doctored too?

Theres a nice conspiracy forum for that..

h2005

mark13 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15vqUf6H-po

CCTV of the shooting, it cuts off right before the shooting occurs, but you can make out the teen pointing his gun at the officer.

You can make it out if thats what you're looking for. It shows nothing for me.

AndonHandon

JaseHeath wrote: »

And how do we repay them? Usually with abuse and criticism, and most of it unwarranted.

To be fair, most people are supporting the police. The sort of incidents talked about in this thread only get attention due to a black victim complex and/or white guilt. Any European country and the race of the person shot dead would not be linked to the reason for shooting but obviously the U.S. Has the history it has with the black people it has.

mynamejeff

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

CCTV will go missing like a cupcake in a room with a fat boy .

o look !

BorneTobyWilde

Look like he pull a gun or offered the police man a banana .

The_Valeyard

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You said from the off you believed the cops, so sorry, we do.
Hard luck on that. Evidence is annoying isn't it?

so sorry, but no , you dont, So cop on with your post.

Now look at the CCTV and check it out now.

Hard luck. Cops are not shooting people for no reason.

Im a big fan of evidence. Are you a fan of evidence when the facts do not suit the story you wish to portray?

Kitty6277

I can't see any reason why the officer had to shoot and kill him though. Okay, fair enough, maybe he had a gun but could the officer use non-lethal force and shoot him somewhere like the kneecap or something?

And really, can you blame black teenagers for carrying weapons? I'm sure they fear for their life more than white cops with a whole police force begind them do.

BorneTobyWilde

Kitty6277 wrote: »

I can't see any reason why the officer had to shoot and kill him though. Okay, fair enough, maybe he had a gun but could the officer use non-lethal force and shoot him somewhere like the kneecap or something?

And really, can you blame black teenagers for carrying weapons? I'm sure they fear for their life more than white cops with a whole police force begind them do.

Would be hard to pick out a kneecap while ducking and diving moving and shooting.Unlucky he died,doubt it was a head shot.

bennyl10

Kitty6277 wrote: »

I can't see any reason why the officer had to shoot and kill him though. Okay, fair enough, maybe he had a gun but could the officer use non-lethal force and shoot him somewhere like the kneecap or something?

And really, can you blame black teenagers for carrying weapons? I'm sure they fear for their life more than white cops with a whole police force begind them do.

The gun was aimed point blank at him.. Instinct says shoot, and if i was the cop,id have shot to kill in that situation too!

h2005

Kitty6277 wrote: »

I can't see any reason why the officer had to shoot and kill him though. Okay, fair enough, maybe he had a gun but could the officer use non-lethal force and shoot him somewhere like the kneecap or something?

And really, can you blame black teenagers for carrying weapons? I'm sure they fear for their life more than white cops with a whole police force begind them do.

Hoping this post is in jest.

BorneTobyWilde

Also looked suspect that the victim quickly approached the two people walking across the parking lot .Only guessing but it looked like an armed robbery on them was about to happen when all of a sudden a police car pulls in, at that point victim left those people alone.

BorneTobyWilde

bennyl10 wrote: »

The gun was aimed point blank at him.. Instinct says shoot, and if i was the cop,id have shot to kill in that situation too!

Instinct says crouch move duck dive shoot off a few round and hope your training makes them some what accurate enough to get the job done.

mynamejeff

Kitty6277 wrote: »

I can't see any reason why the officer had to shoot and kill him though. Okay, fair enough, maybe he had a gun but could the officer use non-lethal force and shoot him somewhere like the kneecap or something?

And really, can you blame black teenagers for carrying weapons? I'm sure they fear for their life more than white cops with a whole police force begind them do.

o look ! an expert :-)

Egginacup

irelandrover wrote: »

So why do you include them?

Because they are state-sanctioned.

Kitty6277

mynamejeff wrote: »

o look ! an expert :-)

I never said I was an expert, I'm just stating my opinion on the matter.

darkpagandeath

Soo.. Are we looking at every black person legitimately killed by police being put on the news as if they are doing drive bys in black neighbourhoods ?

How many Latinos, Whites, Indians, Chinese have been killed by police since MB ?

Sand

Kitty6277 wrote: »

I can't see any reason why the officer had to shoot and kill him though. Okay, fair enough, maybe he had a gun but could the officer use non-lethal force and shoot him somewhere like the kneecap or something?

Because its not a movie.

And really, can you blame black teenagers for carrying weapons? I'm sure they fear for their life more than white cops with a whole police force begind them do.

Yes, I can blame them. Certainly this guy was not carrying a gun for self defence given he drew it on a police officer with little or no provocation. Initial reports are this guy was not a good boy as claimed by his mother.

BorneTobyWilde

Guy looked paranoid and guilty of a crime. He was thinking he was busted in the act of ''about to rob someone'' All bad timing and over reactions by victim . He could of simply walked away, he had walked away no one was following, no need to turn back drop your things and point a gun. Just keep walking...no one was detained. Had he legged it I doubt police would have even followed.

mynamejeff

Kitty6277 wrote: »

I never said I was an expert, I'm just stating my opinion on the matter.

you really mean that was a serious post ?
you really think that anyone who feels that the police are out to get them should carry firearms ?
its your opinion that when a person who appears to be caught in the act carrying out a armed robbery turns his gun on a police officer that the officer should prioritize the criminals well being before the victims or his own ?


is that your opinion ? really ?

Egginacup

mynamejeff wrote: »

from reading this thread it seems fairly clear what some of you fine people want from your police

for the police to be under 24 hour surveillance both on duty and off incase they let the mask slip and the evil inside shines through

to be genetically engineered in a lab not to gain weight or physically deteriorate after working 10 to 12 hour long shifts in a patrol car with a constant state of alertness

to operate with out fear for thier selfs or loved ones despite constant threats on both

to operate with out any human emotions what so ever really

to never defend themselves unless already shot or shot at by someone

to be able to easily over power and arrest a 300 pound violent teenager without hurting him

to solve crimes using techniques you may have seen on CSI or some other crappy tv show

to apply the law rigidly to anyone who wrongs you but ignore any breaches of the law by you or yours

to deal with pressure and the abuses of management who are both politically corrupt glaringly incompetent in many cases .

to do your job with the cheapest equipment and least manpower because why would police need fast cars effective CS spray tazers and access to firearms ballistic vests(not stab vests) or a proper functioning computer system

not to suspect that some one who looks and acts in the same way as criminals who they have previously encountered in the same location might possibly be criminals too

but hey im sure you know better right ................

You know, this is the kind of flippant binary argument that's normally trotted out by apologists of state criminality. No room for debate or reason or rationale, just: if you complain about anything then you MUST favour the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. If one criticises the harshness of someone getting 10 years imprisonment for smoking a joint then people like you come out and say "Oh so you favour hugging every criminal and giving them therapy and some nice courses to attend!" or some such crap.

Waste of time trying to reason with your ilk, to be honest

Sand

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Soo.. Are we looking at every black person legitimately killed by police being put on the news as if they are doing drive bys in black neighbourhoods ?

How many Latinos, Whites, Indians, Chinese have been killed by police since MB ?

It seems to be going that way - if any black person is killed for any reason by a police officer in the US, the assumption will be the cop is murdering racist thug. He (or she) will have to prove their innocence, which will be tricky as his (or her) accusers are totally oblivious to evidence.

Egginacup

mynamejeff wrote: »

Operation Ghetto Storm: 2012 Annual Report on the Extrajudicial
Killing of Black People ??


ya that seems like it wouldn't be a little bit bias

Read the sources of the information.

It seems you will find ay excuse to ignore facts even if the facts clearly show a pattern that you want to ignore. Citing bias as a reason to ignore bias is a pisspoor excuse.

I was a little dubious myself at the nomenclature of the study but after I checked the sources then I was satisfied with the veracity.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Lot of Eggonaface in this thread now after the video!

mynamejeff

Egginacup wrote: »

You know, this is the kind of flippant binary argument that's normally trotted out by apologists of state criminality. No room for debate or reason or rationale, just: if you complain about anything then you MUST favour the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. If one criticises the harshness of someone getting 10 years imprisonment for smoking a joint then people like you come out and say "Oh so you favour hugging every criminal and giving them therapy and some nice courses to attend!" or some such crap.

Waste of time trying to reason with your ilk, to be honest

just because i dont agree with you kid dont get all pantsy ,
your sort of proving your own point right there aint you.

and having read some of your previous posts believe me i have no interest in trying to reason with you either.

end of the road

apparently the officer involved in this murder was issued with a body cam but wasn't wearing it at the time. i wonder why.

Egginacup

Tugboats wrote: »

I like my murders like i do my porn black on black. Any stats on this?

Don't try to frame the issue with that old canard as if it's in any way relevant.
Saying that cops who disproportionately kill, beat, arrest or otherwise harass blacks are ok because there's lots of black-on-black crime is a ridiculous and vile assertion.

I don't even know why you're bringing it up...or rather I DO....it's called deflection, muddying the waters, framing the debate, etc.

Kitty6277

mynamejeff wrote: »

you really mean that was a serious post ?
you really think that anyone who feels that the police are out to get them should carry firearms ?
its your opinion that when a person who appears to be caught in the act carrying out a armed robbery turns his gun on a police officer that the officer should prioritize the criminals well being before the victims or his own ?


is that your opinion ? really ?

No, that is not my opinion because that isn't what I'm trying to say.

No, I don't think that "anyone who feels that the police are out to get them should carry firearms" but given that there's been such racial conflict in St Louis of late, people are bound to arm themselves, especially as cops who kill unarmed teenagers seem to get off with no punishment whatsoever.

Obviously, I don't know what went down that that gas station because I wasn't there, and neither were any of ye. Maybe there was an armed robbery in progress but maybe there wasn't. Remember in the Michael Brown case, that's what the police said too but this was later denied by the store.

darkpagandeath

end of the road wrote: »

apparently the officer involved in this murder was issued with a body cam but wasn't wearing it at the time. i wonder why.

What would that change in the facts of this case ?

irelandrover

end of the road wrote: »

apparently the officer involved in this murder was issued with a body cam but wasn't wearing it at the time. i wonder why.

Are you going to provide any sort of backup for this claim?

kingchess

It is not illegal to carry a gun in the US.there is plenty of vids. on youtube of people people wearing guns on their hip walking down the street and getting stopped by police,which then leads to the police demanding ID(legally the police can NOT ask for your ID.unless they suspect you of a crime).the person with the gun usually quotes the Constitution and Bill of Rights etc and sometimes they get to carry on with-out showing any ID or,if arrested will sue for Civil rights violations.there are also plenty of vids showing police behaving ,well,like a law onto themselves.

Grab All Association

Apparently the guy never pointed a gun at the officer despite seen to in the CCTV. The camera never lies. Also there's no doubt footage of this caught on the dash cam. Case closed one less potential criminal and one more gun off the streets.

darkpagandeath

kingchess wrote: »

It is not illegal to carry a gun in the US.there is plenty of vids. on youtube of people people wearing guns on their hip walking down the street and getting stopped by police,which then leads to the police demanding ID(legally the police can NOT ask for your ID.unless they suspect you of a crime).the person with the gun usually quotes the Constitution and Bill of Rights etc and sometimes they get to carry on with-out showing any ID or,if arrested will sue for Civil rights violations.

Do they unholster them and wave them at the police ?

SeanW

Egginacup wrote: »

The vigilantes are people like the racist, sexist, wifebeating thug and "neighbourhood watch" gobshite George Zimmerman who was told by cops not to go near Trayvon Martin but followed and shot and killed him anyway.

Her's the thing about Trayvon Martin. Yes, his killing may have been a murder, but 6000+ black people are murdered each year in the United States (more than whites, 5800+) and this correlates to the murder rate by race as well.

To be clear, I use these statistics only for one purpose - to question why Travyon Martin is so important.

To be clear also, it's reasonable to assume that T.M. may have been murdered, and we should all be appalled by this. As we should about any murder.

But I find it bizarre that all the people mourning for Trayvon Martin (and actual thugs like Michael Brown) don't give a ***k about the tens of thousands of black people that have been murdered (by other black people, in 94% of cases) over the last few years.

kingchess

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Do they unholster them and wave them at the police ?

no.not unless they want to get shot:rolleyes:

irish coldplayer

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And you choose to ignore those bits, so pot kettle black Mr Bias.
If a NYPD tale is irrelevant, funny how you didn't jump down the throat of the guy who posted it, huh? Biased much?
"I and many other..." you mean the EMS, cop and military guys here? No bias there either, oh no!

Now you're just descending into farce.
Show me any part of the article (not taken out of context) that contradicts anything I've posted in this thread.

And if you're going to quote me and use it as an alleged example of bias, you could at least be intellectually honest and quote me in full.

I said:
"since you have read the article yourself and then chose to cherry pick the quotes to suit your agenda while ignoring aspects of it that dont.
I and I think many other people would think that it shows an obvious bias."

I am referring to readers of this thread, I made no mention or inference that I was talking about "EMS cop or military guys"

BTW I have no problem in saying that the NYPD like any large force has issues with corruption and rascism within it. Perhaps even more than most police forces, I dont know but to say that every cop is like that is akin to saying all muslims are terrorists.
It is neither true nor verifiable even if it were true.