Crimea - Collective Punishment?

Armistice

Hi all.

My friends and relatives in Crimea (Civilians) have informed me that for the past couple of weeks the electricity has been cutting off for the entire peninsula for most of the day. This was announced by Ukrainian and Russian news outlets as Kiev's decision based on Crimea "using more than their quota".

It got worse on Christmas eve, when the power, water, internet, TV, Mobile phones and trains to Ukraine were cut off completely or severely disrupted by the Ukrainian government. The services are restored all bar the power, which comes on for about 3 hours a day. This is the day Orthodox Christians traditionally light their new years trees all over the cities in preparation for the Orthodox Christmas. Obviously this tradition couldn't happen this year and Ukraine seemed to have timed it well to pull the plug at the start of the holidays.

Crimea is still powered mainly by Ukraine, which in theory shouldn't be a problem since Ukraine is powered by Russian gas and rebellious Eastern Ukrainian (Donbass) coal. It also owes billions for this gas bill but the gas needs to flow through Ukraine to get to European customers so Russia can't exactly turn off the taps without massive headaches all round.

So up until now mutual inter-dependability kept everyone powered. The word on the street in Ukraine is that Donbass coal is now going to Russia, so Kiev is responding by cutting the power to Crimea. No Coal, No electricity. I do get this approach I really do but surely only the innocent will suffer from this either way!

However despite an agreed all-for-all prisoner exchange in East Ukraine going ahead today as per implementation of the Minsk agreements, Kiev has cancelled the next session of peace talks and announced the trains will no longer run to Crimea. At the same time insisting that Crimea is part of Ukraine and that it will continue to support it's citizens in occupied territory.

Today it was announced that Visa and Mastercard are no longer accepted due to USA sanctions. Causing a huge problem for Crimeans whose relatives live and work in the West and send money home to the Mammy, as money transfer is now virtually impossible without getting very creative.

Also, on the trains no longer running - One of the stipulations of EU sanctions is that Crimeans who wish to travel to the EU need to apply for their visa's in Kiev (not Moscow as Russians do). They will supposedly be treated as any other Ukrainian citizen would be provided they apply in Kiev.

Obviously with no trains running or flights from anywhere other than Russia it is now de facto impossible for poorer Ukrainians in Crimea to apply for a visa in Kiev unless they drive up or can afford to fly through Moscow to Kiev.


There are just a lot of things that don't make sense from all sides here:


If Kiev sees Crimea as it's own and cares for the welfare of it's 2 million citizens, why then would it proceed to cut basic necessity like power and water (One of the earliest measures Ukraine took was to block an important irrigation canal running from Ukraine into Crimea.
)? Punitive measures severely impact peoples lives and could result in fatalities of the elderly and frail.


If the USA and EU does not recognize Crimeas secession and annexation by Russia as per it's official stance, and sees it as an inseparable part of Ukraine, why then would it implement sanctions that are not targeted at big players but rather at ordinary, innocent people caught up in all of this? Punishment for voting for the Russians? ( Well it couldn't be that because the referendum was judged fraudulent by the West anyway)

Additionally if Kiev is interested in the peace process why would it cancel the next meeting in Minsk after a successful prisoner exchange with the rebels?

I am not looking to paint Kiev as the villain, or the EU or USA as the bad guys, Nor do I want to paint the Russians as the good guys. At the same time I don't buy the black and white, West = Good guys, Ukraine = victim, Russia = evil empire. The world is not that simple and it would be lazy to believe it is. There are good, and bad players on all sides of this conflict. I have been accused of being a pro-Russian Putin supporter for this stance, but nothing could be further from the truth.

For example I remember when the referendum was occurring and I asked my friends and family on Skype, were there any Russian soldiers at the polling stations they went to? The answer was no, Just some old ladies sitting at a table giving out the polling cards.

Then I go to work, and all the guys in work are banging on about how the Crimeans were forced to vote at gunpoint. When I pointed out that it's not what the Crimeans I know are telling me, they got really aggravated with me. It seemed like preserving their narrative of what was going on was more important than listening to someone relay actual anecdotes from real life witness accounts .

I just think that punishing ordinary Crimeans be the Russian, Ukrainian, Tartar or anyone else is an unnecessary cruel and ultimately pointless and petty move on Kiev's part.

I feel really sorry for the Crimeans now, Having the pretty useless Ukrainian government trying to "save" them by isolating them and Putin's Russia as their protector. With friends like those who needs enemies.

So folks, apologies for the rambling nature of my post, but do you think Crimea is being subjected to collective punishment, and if so, is there any justification?

Dannyboy83

Armistice wrote: »

There are just a lot of things that don't make sense from all sides here:

So Russia destroys her own economy and reputation to take you under her wing, and yet you are criticizing the Russians?
That's gratitude! LOL!

So folks, apologies for the rambling nature of my post, but do you think Crimea is being subjected to collective punishment, and if so, is there any justification?

Ukraine is on the verge of civil war and total economic collapse. Cities all across Ukraine are suffering power shortages.

Russia's economy is screwed and Russia is on a path to becoming China's dog, thanks to a backwater called Crimea.

Most of the Northern hemisphere is concerned about accidental nuclear war, over a practically medieval country which nobody wants in the European Union anyway.


And you think Crimea is being singled out ???

Kristopherus

If that zealot Putin kept his nose out of Ukraine, there would be no issue. The way he has now fcuked up that whole region, its likely that Crimea will not get its services back anytime soon.

Armistice

Kristopherus wrote: »

If that zealot Putin kept his nose out of Ukraine, there would be no issue. The way he has now fcuked up that whole region, its likely that Crimea will not get its services back anytime soon.

But I'm not talking about Putin specifically. I am asking people believe collective punishment is being carried out against Crimeas ordinary residents and if so is it justified?

Kristopherus

Armistice wrote: »

But I'm not talking about Putin specifically. I am asking people believe collective punishment is being carried out against Crimeas ordinary residents and if so is it justified?

AFAIK the pressure is coming from both sides. I think you are likely to get more negative replies than positive ones, tbh.

Unfortunately when there's a political dispute, its always the ordinary, hardworking folk who suffer most. Is Crimea, and by the I mean the ordinary folk, more pro Russia, or pro Ukraine?

Armistice

Kristopherus wrote: »

AFAIK the pressure is coming from both sides. I think you are likely to get more negative replies than positive ones, tbh.

Unfortunately when there's a political dispute, its always the ordinary, hardworking folk who suffer most. Is Crimea, and by the I mean the ordinary folk, more pro Russia, or pro Ukraine?

Well just a disclaimer first that I am of course basing my opinions on the people I know, and my general experiences of talking to Crimeans over the years.

To be honest most people I talked politics with in my many visits to Crimea considered themselves Ethnically and culturally Russian but pro European, They looked to the EU as a sign of liberty and hope.

Every one saw Ukraine and Russia in much the same light, Corrupt old fashioned authoritarian regimes that rushed in to fill the void of the USSR. The word mafia was used a lot to describe the governments of both Ukraine and Russia. Many seeing Kiev as a Kremlin puppet.

I am sure that most of us would agree with these sentiments.

Crimea has always been a popular tourist spot for Europeans such as Germans and Italians, and Russians of course, and a surprising amount of Americans and Canadians. So unlike much of mainland Ukraine, every year during the summer months Crimea had a massive influx of foreigners. Cruise ships are (or were) a regular site.

Additionally Most young Crimeans have a high standard of education and go to work abroad and send money home to the folks. They also report back to them on how life is in whatever country they adopted.

So as a result of these factors the average Crimean is quite worldly compared to say the Eastern Ukrainians who can be almost the opposite due to the little tourism they get and the fact that there are plenty of jobs to keep the young people there in the coal mines, steel works and what not. Practically every Crimean has a few family members working abroad.

Naturally as most of them are Russians ethnically ( In that their parents, grandparents etc were Russians) who were born in the USSR, there is a cultural and ethnic affinity with Russia proper.

However, practically all the people I spoke to about politics valued the fact that they were not in Russia, as they saw that as a more authoritarian state with less freedom than even Ukraine.

So there is a pro European attitude amongst Crimeans (suprise). They would rather not be in Ukraine (as it was) or Russia, and Crimea has vied for autonomy on several occasions. Crimea was actually a semi autonomous state within a state before it was annexed back into Russia.

Some of the Ukrainian parliament were associated with some pretty extreme right wingers. After Yanukovych and his party of Regions were overturned they were the last people the Ukrainian Russians wanted to fill the power vacuum.

The Kremlin cashed in on the chaos and mistrust of the new Ukrainian government and peoples fear of impending doom and moved to cordon off Crimea. Many saw them as a stabilizing factor. Russia scared the bejaysus out of a lot of the older people with a lot of propaganda showing Nazi symbols associated with Kiev. The fact that here really were self styled Nazi militias who occasionally showed up on the news added credence to this propaganda. Although in reality these groups, although terrifying are relatively insignificant.

So voting for Russia was seen as the lessor of two evils by many Crimeans. Sort of a devil you know type situation.

It was all extremely fast and clearly the Crimeans voted out of panic and Russia was seen as a stable factor in all the chaos. After all they had no real time to think about it.

Now of course in the cold light of day many feel totally stuck. They don't want to be part of Putins ideological crusade, but fear Kievs enhanced russophobia.

Many who can are leaving and moving to countries such as Israel who have an affinity with Crimea.( Crimea plays an important part in Jewish history).

Anyway there's my two cents.

TL/DR - In the years I've been visiting Crimea and the relationships I've built up almost all of them were Pro European and distrusted severely both Kiev and Moscow wishing instead for an independent , tourism driven Crimea.

BlaasForRafa

Why should Ukraine supply power to a territory that was stolen from it by another country?

gandalf

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Why should Ukraine supply power to a territory that was stolen from it by another country?

This would be my position as well. The Russians stole the territory illegally from another sovereign state. Surely the responsibility now lies with them with ensuring "their" people get these services.

If you are going to hand out medals for illegal actions, hold a lavish signing ceremony to illegally annex that territory, have your head of state attend celebrations there then surely you should expect that State Russia would supply these services as well?

You can't expect a country to piss all over international law, decide to slice off portions of another sovereign state and everything to carry on as normal. At least the Crimeans have not suffered the way the Eastern Ukrainians have from this conflict.

Markcheese

Would the turning off the power - gas - water- ect be tactical - the Russians want their spiritual enclave of Crimea to be a success - but all the services come through Ukraine - all these services were going to be supplied by new pipelines-lines ect across the straits from Russia.
Of course a corrupt (and now broke) Russia,isn't going going to be able to do that quickly - so it might have to treat with Ukraine -
Ukraine might want Crimea back -(not that it's particularly Ukrainian ) but it's not going to happen - so why would it use it's scarce resources to benefit what's now Russian space -

BoJack Horseman

Russian citizens should take their grievances to the Russian government.... end of.

I'm baffled as to why Kiev is supplying Crimea with a single watt of energy.

A (statistically unlikely) 97% majority of crimeans wanted this to happen..... Live with it.

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Russian citizens should take their grievances to the Russian government.... end of.

I'm baffled as to why Kiev is supplying Crimea with a single watt of energy.

A (statistically unlikely) 97% majority of crimeans wanted this to happen..... Live with it.

Bojack, you appear to be saying that the vote was likely fraudulent (Which I agree with) and at the same time saying that the Crimeans should live with the consequences.

How can they be held responsible for a situation forced upon them by an occupying country?

Unless you see the vote as valid, in which case we (the west) should respect the democrat wish of the people and lift the sanctions.

You can't mix and match both.

Also , they are still Ukrainian citizens.

Armistice

Markcheese wrote: »

Would the turning off the power - gas - water- ect be tactical - the Russians want their spiritual enclave of Crimea to be a success - but all the services come through Ukraine - all these services were going to be supplied by new pipelines-lines ect across the straits from Russia.
Of course a corrupt (and now broke) Russia,isn't going going to be able to do that quickly - so it might have to treat with Ukraine -
Ukraine might want Crimea back -(not that it's particularly Ukrainian ) but it's not going to happen - so why would it use it's scarce resources to benefit what's now Russian space -

I think this is the reality of the situation.

In my opinion it seems that Ukraine owes Russia a lot of money, and that Russia owes Ukraine a lot of land and infrastructure. Surely there is some sensible and forward thinking arrangement that can be made.

If I stole my neighbors land and for some reason, and it wasn't realistic to return it, a court would order me to pay compensation.

If Russia agreed to drop the debt and pay a fee to Ukraine over the next 10 years say, for loss of tax revenue from Crimea. With a stipulation that Crimeans be allowed vote again in a few years when all this has died down about whether or not they want to be in Ukraine with international monitors present.

And the USA and EU agreeing to drop the sanctions (With Russia removing all support for East Ukrainian rebels and Kiev offering a once off amnesty to those rebels)

Maybe that could be a non world war 3 way out of this situation.

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

Bojack, you appear to be saying that the vote was likely fraudulent (Which I agree with) and at the same time saying that the Crimeans should live with the consequences.

The vote was illegal & the result a mockery, however you said that the Crimean people preferred to be Russian......
They got their wish.

How can they be held responsible for a situation forced upon them by an occupying country?

To the extent that Irish people are responsible for Ireland..... Russians are responsible for Russia..... You said they are Russian.

Unless you see the vote as valid

It isnt

in which case we (the west) should respect the democrat wish of the people and lift the sanctions.

The sanctions are aimed at the Russian ruling elite.... not the Russian people. I'm happy for them to remain indefinitely.

Also , they are still Ukrainian citizens.

Who, as you said, are Russian & live in Russia.

This problem starts & ends with Russia.

There is no responsibility on Kiev's part to do anything.
In providing what is now Russian territory with water & power they are prolonging the conflict through accepting the new status quo.

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The vote was illegal & the result a mockery, however you said that the Crimean people preferred to be Russian......
They got their wish.

They are Russian ethnically but ethnicity does not equal nationality. I said they prefer (The people I know anyway) to be Russian Europeans and open and were happy not to be in Russia. They were scared into voting for Russia.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Yes..... To the extent that Irish people are responsible for Ireland..... Russians are responsible for Russia.

And yet the Irish government still look after Irish people even if they happen to be in Northern Ireland. It gives them Irish passports if they wish and funds resources, community facilities and other support/outreach programs.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The sanctions are aimed at the Russian ruling elite.... I'm happy for them to remain indefinitely.

These sanctions I agree with, punishing normal civilians however I don't agree with. Basic human rights and all that.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Who, as you said, are Russian & live in Russia.

But are ethnic Russian Ukrainians. Russians yes, but Ukrainian nationals too. It is possible to be both, as we have discovered in Ireland with Anglo-Irish, and Scots-Irish etc.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

There is no responsibility on Kiev's part to do anything.
In providing what is now Russian territory with water & power they are prolonging the conflict through accepting the new status quo.

So Kiev should wash their hands of 2 million Ukrainian citizens? is that really the right thing to do?




I should add that yesterday Russia has agreed to provide 1 million tonnes of coal to Ukraine in the hope that it will restore power to Crimea.

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

They are Russian ethnically....
...they prefer to be Russian....
They were scared into voting for Russia.

There you go.... Why Ukraine should continue to power & heat these Russians escape me.

You make your bed, you lie in it.

And yet the Irish government still look after Irish people even if they happen to be in Northern Ireland. It gives them Irish passports if they wish and funds resources, community facilities and other support/outreach programs

Yeah, I never understood why we pay money to Irish people living abroad.

So Kiev should wash their hands of 2 million Ukrainian citizens? is that really the right thing to do?

The right thing would be for the Russian government to take care of Russian territory & citizens......

I should add that yesterday Russia has agreed to provide 1 million tonnes of coal to Ukraine in the hope that it will restore power to Crimea.

Good.... of course.

The sooner a territory the size & population of Leinster can get some power stations going, the better.

You call it collective punishment?
You are accusing the wrong punisher.

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

There you go.... Why Ukraine should continue to power & heat these Russians escape me.

You make your bed, you lie in it.

Bojack I think you are missing my point. The Crimeans didn't make this bed. They have been thrust into these circumstances, and at the same time you say they deserve it.

What exactly is the Crime of the Crimean public so great that it removes Ukraine's responsibility towards the 2 million Ukrainian citizens there?

Anyway, I don't expect you to understand, and respect that you hold a different, albeit in my opinion slightly hypocritical view.

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

Bojack I think you are missing my point. The Crimeans didn't make this bed. They have been thrust into these circumstances, and at the same time you say they deserve it.

You said that your friends/family voted to be part of Russia & that they are Russian both ethnically & in their hearts.

Is some some temporary blackouts not a small price to pay for returning your land to its rightful place?

What exactly is the Crime of the Crimean public so great that it removes Ukraine's responsibility towards the 2 million Ukrainian citizens there?

No expert, but I'd imagine that the Kiev governments first responsibility is to Ukraine.

With its collapsed economy, currency & tax returns, the Kiev government are hard stretched heating & powering Ukraine let alone the burden of powering a chunk of foreign territory.

Anyway, I don't expect you to understand, and respect that you hold a different, albeit in my opinion slightly hypocritical view.

As I said I'm no expert.

But as you say..... Your friends/family:
Are ethnic Russian
Speak Russian
Feel Russian
Voted to be part of Russia.

Then have the gall to feel salty just because the nation & people they voted against isn't keeping them as cosy as they would like.

As I said, you voted to be part of Russia.
If you aren't happy with the state of your utilities, take it up with them.

Just don't be shocked if the nation your friends/family turned their backs against isn't feeling very friendly.

Lemming

Armistice, put it this way; Russia charges Ukraine for its gas power. Effectively the Ukrainians are now paying Russia to power "Russian " territory. Territory that the Russians have brazenly stolen in full view of the world.

Why should the Ukraine bear costs that are now not theirs to bear, from a neighbour who has been proverbially beating them up for its own gain

Does that seem logical to you?

gandalf

Armistice wrote: »

Bojack I think you are missing my point. The Crimeans didn't make this bed. They have been thrust into these circumstances, and at the same time you say they deserve it.

What exactly is the Crime of the Crimean public so great that it removes Ukraine's responsibility towards the 2 million Ukrainian citizens there?

Anyway, I don't expect you to understand, and respect that you hold a different, albeit in my opinion slightly hypocritical view.

But if Crimea was so important to Russia surely they would ensure that they are capable of supplying the basic needs of Crimeans?

If they can't even do this then why did they take it upon themselves to illegally take over the territory. Also I see you choose to ignore my comment that the Crimeans (bar the Tartars) have come out of this conflict relatively unscathed compared to their Eastern Ukrainian cousins.

Manach

One can feel sympathy for the OP's kin in Crimea. Unfortunately history plays a part in this complex situation. The use of embargoes has deep roots, being used a political weapon in times of war and peace to impose one sides domination on another - from WWI to the recent Cuban sanctions. As well the revenge of history plays a part in this and neighbouring regions, where it is now an aspect of the latest stage of the Great Game: where moves to check the Russian hegmony is now with the US rather than UK.
Thus as sanctions are well established in customary law, it is unlikely the people of Crimea will have any relief in the immediate future so long a Russia remains in possession of that region.

WakeUp

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

With its collapsed economy, currency & tax returns, the Kiev government are hard stretched heating & powering Ukraine let alone the burden of powering a chunk of foreign territory

this is true. its probably actually worse than you describe it. Russia is shipping 50,000 tons of coal into Ukraine daily which the Ukrainians cant pay for. think its from the donbass region well some of it anyways so technically its theirs but thats how bad things are for them. Europes largest nuclear power plant has suffered its second emergency shut down in the space of a month. the plant covers 1/5 of Ukrainian energy demands lets hope they and that plant can keep their sh1t together for reasons that are obvious and dont need stating.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-28/ukraines-largest-nuclear-power-plant-suffers-2nd-emergency-shutdown-3-weeks?

Dannyboy83

Armistice wrote: »

What exactly is the Crime of the Crimean public so great that it removes Ukraine's responsibility towards the 2 million Ukrainian citizens there?

To whom do the 2 million citizens there pay their taxes?

Armistice

gandalf wrote: »

But if Crimea was so important to Russia surely they would ensure that they are capable of supplying the basic needs of Crimeans?

If they can't even do this then why did they take it upon themselves to illegally take over the territory. Also I see you choose to ignore my comment that the Crimeans (bar the Tartars) have come out of this conflict relatively unscathed compared to their Eastern Ukrainian cousins.

Just to address that , the Crimeans were not in a conflict. There was a political crisis but no conflict.

Would you prefer if some Crimeans were killed to even it up?

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

Would you prefer if some Crimeans were killed to even it up?

I'd imagine he wouldn't?
Would you prefer more death?

Armistice

WakeUp wrote: »

this is true. its probably actually worse than you describe it. Russia is shipping 50,000 tons of coal into Ukraine daily which the Ukrainians cant pay for. think its from the donbass region well some of it anyways so technically its theirs but thats how bad things are for them. Europes largest nuclear power plant has suffered its second emergency shut down in the space of a month. the plant covers 1/5 of Ukrainian energy demands lets hope they and that plant can keep their sh1t together for reasons that are obvious and dont need stating.

The Ukrainian government has announced that it has changed the rules making it legal to import electricity from countries other than Russia ( Previously only Russia was allowed sell electricity to Ukraine).

Just read about it today. This means that Ukraine can import from Hungary, Poland, Belarus, Romania and Slovakia.

Ukraine intends to sell this back to Russia to power Crimea. So some positive steps forward for all concerned.

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I'd imagine he wouldn't?
Would you prefer more death?

Of course not. when have I alluded to this?

Armistice

Manach wrote: »

One can feel sympathy for the OP's kin in Crimea. Unfortunately history plays a part in this complex situation. The use of embargoes has deep roots, being used a political weapon in times of war and peace to impose one sides domination on another - from WWI to the recent Cuban sanctions. As well the revenge of history plays a part in this and neighbouring regions, where it is now an aspect of the latest stage of the Great Game: where moves to check the Russian hegmony is now with the US rather than UK.
Thus as sanctions are well established in customary law, it is unlikely the people of Crimea will have any relief in the immediate future so long a Russia remains in possession of that region.

I think your right. Unfortunately for the innocents that have to live there it looks like Crimea is going to be another Cuba.

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

it looks like Crimea is going to be another Cuba.

Well, Cuba didn't vote to be part of Russia, so I'm not sure of the equivalence?

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

when have I alluded to this?

When did Gandalf?

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

When did Gandalf?

He pointed out that the Crimeans have gotten off lightly compared to Eastern Ukraine. I asked him if more dead Crimeans would somehow make this fair.

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Well, Cuba didn't vote to be part of Russia, so I'm not sure of the equivalence?

Bojack I mean the isolating effects of international sanctions. Why are you so contrary to me did I offend you?

Dannyboy83

Armistice wrote: »

But I'm not talking about Putin specifically. I am asking people believe collective punishment is being carried out against Crimeas ordinary residents and if so is it justified?

You're pretty much wasting your time bringing this argument to people of a little nation.
The little nations are always going to unite in supporting economic sanctions against an aggressive bully, simply due to self preservation.

We're always asked to consider Russian mentality, but Russia has zero concern for how the rest of the world feels, acting unilaterally and/or illegally, as they see fit, and have even outdone the US in terms of duplicitousness.

We won't just stand idly by while Russia 'rescues Russian speakers' across Europe, we already saw this movie in 1939, we know how it ends.


Russia can feel free to cast it as offensive, or punitive, or however the hell she likes really... that's her prerogative. And the Russian people will lap it up ... for a while at least....the Belarussian economy is collapsing and the Central Asian Republics are beginning to feel the pain.

Russia can come to the negotiating table and talk peace, or stand back while her economy and client states fall to pieces.

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

Bojack I mean the isolating effects of international sanctions. Why are you so contrary to me did I offend you?

I'm not being contrarian for its own sake.

The way I see it, if you hate a nation so incredibly much..... so much that you would vote to leave it & join another nation, well the old country owes you nothing.

Your kin want to be Russian & now are..... This is what they wanted.

The crushed Ukraine owes these turncoats nothing.

You haven't demonstrated why Ukraine should heat/power foreign territory at the cost of its own.

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I'm not being contrarian for its own sake.

The way I see it, if you hate a nation so incredibly much..... so much that you would vote to leave it & join another nation, well the old country owes you nothing.

Your kin want to be Russian & now are..... This is what they wanted.

The crushed Ukraine owes these turncoats nothing.

You haven't demonstrated why Ukraine should heat/power foreign territory at the cost of its own.

Wow thats a pretty big conclusion to come to based on a small amount of information about my kin as you call them. They are a mixed bunch but all decent people.

Some of them voted for Ukraine, most for Russia. But they don't hate Ukraine, far from it nobody said they hated Ukraine.

Many wish this never happened, but as I mentioned during the crises a powerful propaganda campaign by Russia scared people into voting for Russia.

The problem with this is that there was no counter campaign, no 'No' side.

So during a crises people were forced into making a snap decision when all hell was breaking loose, and your attitude to them is calling them turncoats?

Anyone who voted for Russia did so believing at the time it was the best thing for their own country, officially the autonomous republic of Crimea. Not exactly sure how that makes them turncoats.

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I'm not being contrarian for its own sake.

The way I see it, if you hate a nation so incredibly much..... so much that you would vote to leave it & join another nation, well the old country owes you nothing.

Your kin want to be Russian & now are..... This is what they wanted.

The crushed Ukraine owes these turncoats nothing.

You haven't demonstrated why Ukraine should heat/power foreign territory at the cost of its own.

Well I did not start this thread to demonstrate whether or not Ukraine should heat/power Crimea. I wanted to draw attention to the fact that ordinary civilians were being directly effected by sanctions and asked if it was collective punishment.


If Ukraine want to cut the power to Crimea then they should acknowledge that Crimea is not Ukraine anymore. however they have not done this and are insisting that Crimea is an inseparable part of Ukraine. So by their own logic, Crimea should be powered by Ukraine.


Personally I hope Ukraine somehow does take back Crimea, but not if that will cost peoples lives. I think people would rather be alive in Russia then buried in Ukraine.

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

Anyone who voted for Russia did so believing at the time it was the best thing for their own country, officially the autonomous republic of Crimea. Not exactly sure how that makes them turncoats.

If your part of one side & switch to another..... you are literally a turncoat!

Where Ireland a federalised state, I cannot imagine my 'state of Wicklow' voting to join the UK.

It may be better for Wicklow, but we wouldn't do it.

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

If your part of one side & switch to another..... you are literally a turncoat!

Where Ireland a federalised state, I cannot imagine my 'state of Wicklow' voting to join the UK.

It may be better for Wicklow, but we wouldn't do it.

Using that example what if Wicklow was a recently British state anyway with a 90% British population? You can't see how that might nuance things a bit?

Or do you only see it in binary terms. Black and white, Russians and Ukrainians. Evil and good?

I disagree, a turncoat would be if Crimeans picked up guns and went to fight against Ukraine. They didn't. ( well maybe a few mislead young men did in East Ukraine but on a whole they didn't.)

Which side are you on if your parents were born in Russia in the USSR, you were born in the Ukrainian administrative republic of the USSR, and became Ukrainian by default after the USSR dissolved?

My OH has had 4 Nationalities in their lifetime. How does that play out when it comes to being loyal to their state? loyalty for them is to their families, friends and people around them. Not some intangible government that rotates from failed state to failed state.

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

And what of the Crimeans that want to stay in Ukraine, is it right that they be sanctioned by Ukraine?

Who says they are being sanctioned?
Just you.

If the people of Crimea are being "sanctioned" by Kiev, there would be some sort of proof.

A collapsed Ukraine, not being able to keep the now foreign Crimeria cozy while people in Ukraine freeze?

That doesn't sound like sanctions.
It sounds like common sense

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Who says they are being sanctioned?
Just you.

If the people of Crimea are being "sanctioned" by Kiev, there would be some SRT of proof.

A collapsed Ukraine, not being able to keep the now foreign Crimeria cozy while people in Ukraine freeze?

That doesn't sound like sanctions.
It sounds like common sense

You keep saying Crimea is now foreign to Ukraine but the Kiev government, the USA, the EU, Australia, Canada and most others say Crimea is Ukraine.

When they start to recognize Crimea as a separate country to Ukraine, so shall I.

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

I disagree, a turncoat would be if Crimeans picked up guns and went to fight against Ukraine.

As per wiki:

A turncoat is a person who shifts allegiance from one loyalty or ideal to another, betraying or deserting an original cause by switching to the opposing side or party.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turncoat

So, by voting to leave Ukraine & join Russia, your friends/family are literally turncoats.

I'm happy with using the label, it fits perfectly.

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

You keep saying Crimea is now foreign to Ukraine

I'm just going along with your friends/family & 97% of Crimean voters.

Armistice

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

So, by voting to leave Ukraine & join Russia, your friends/family are literally turncoats.

I'm happy with using the label, it fits perfectly.

I disagree completely, but I can't stop you from believing this and your welcome to it.

Maybe try to address my comments above which I will quote again here

"Which side are you on if your parents were born in Russia in the USSR, you were born in the Ukrainian administrative republic of the USSR, and became Ukrainian by default after the USSR dissolved?

My OH has had 4 Nationalities in their lifetime. How does that play out when it comes to being loyal to their state? loyalty for them is to their families, friends and people around them. Not some intangible government that rotates from failed state to failed state."

BoJack Horseman

Armistice wrote: »

"Which side are you on if your parents were born in Russia in the USSR, you were born in the Ukrainian administrative republic of the USSR, and became Ukrainian by default after the USSR dissolved?

I'd consider myself Ukrainian in that context as I would have been born & lived there.

Dannyboy83

Armistice wrote: »

"Which side are you on if your parents were born in Russia in the USSR, you were born in the Ukrainian administrative republic of the USSR, and became Ukrainian by default after the USSR dissolved?

My partner is ethnic Russian, born in the USSR, Lithuanian by default, and now an Irish citizen.
She's not entitled to anything in Lithuania, she pays her taxes to the Irish government.

You're not bound by your ethnicity & taking pride in your Russian heritage does not mean you are bound to support a despotic regime.
Many in the Irish diaspora were highly critical at the ridiculous way in which the Irish state was managed. If they hadn't been, it may have taken much longer to improve.

(p.s. I think Nationalism is stupid anyway, so I would take pride in the term turncoat frankly, but I don't see room for debate in terms of Ukraine's obligation to Crimea, especially when the blackouts are nationwide)

My OH has had 4 Nationalities in their lifetime. How does that play out when it comes to being loyal to their state? loyalty for them is to their families, friends and people around them. Not some intangible government that rotates from failed state to failed state."

I agree with you here, Ukraine is horribly corrupt & divided along ethnic lines.
One regime gets into power, tries to impose it's will on the other side.
Then the other regime gets in, and does the exact same thing.
In the end, they will probably split, or else become a loose federation, then split.
Then Russia might dislocate Crimea from Russian and attach Crimea into a "DPR-East UKraine" client state. An even worse fate.
But anything is possible.



Be realistic, Crimea's fate is sealed.
Crimeans are subjects of the Russian Federation and pay their taxes to the RF.
Ukraine can lay claim, but has no more obligation (or means) than Dublin has to the ethnic Irish population of Belfast who pay their taxes to the UK.
Russians act as if they're doing Ukraine a favour by shipping coal, ignoring the fact that they're collecting the money used to pay for it from Crimea.


Nobody is going to risk nuclear war over a place most people cannot find on the map.
The only thing the peace loving world can do to is sanctions.
That takes time to produce results.
And it works best when the small people suffer the most, because the people at the top never really suffer, until their ousted.

Things will get much worse in Crimea before they get better.

Armistice

Dannyboy as much as I don't wish to see Crimeans suffer I agree with you. I think it's faith is sealed and it is probably going to get worse before it gets better.

gandalf

Armistice wrote: »

He pointed out that the Crimeans have gotten off lightly compared to Eastern Ukraine. I asked him if more dead Crimeans would somehow make this fair.

I never said anything about a bodycount making things more "fair". I just stated that the basis for the illegal annexation of Crimea was the same as the attempted occupation of Eastern Ukraine and that the Crimeans were luckier than the Eastern Ukrainians.

RandomName2

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Russia is on a path to becoming China's dog, thanks to a backwater called Crimea.

I don't understand. If anything the US is China's "dog" as it's world’s largest foreign owner of U.S. government debt.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Most of the Northern hemisphere is concerned about accidental nuclear war, over a practically medieval country which nobody wants in the European Union anyway.

Most of the northern hemisphere is concerned with curtailing Russian territorial ambitions. It is the threat of nuclear war which curtails that concern.

As for not wanting the Ukraine in the EU - I think you should see what the EU leaders actually want, rather than what you personally feel. The EU as a whole is fairly determined to have the Ukraine join: and this is really the first time that the expansion of two powers have come to a head in Europe since Detente.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

And you think Crimea is being singled out ???

Seeing that the US has explicitly banned trade with the Crimea, I'd say most definitely "yes".

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/20/world/europe/us-tightens-crimea-embargo-to-pressure-russia.html?_r=0

Dannyboy83

Armistice wrote: »

Dannyboy as much as I don't wish to see Crimeans suffer I agree with you. I think it's faith is sealed and it is probably going to get worse before it gets better.

I honestly don't think anybody on either side wishes to see the other side suffer, apart from a few maniac xenophobes, but these people gravitate toward any conflict.

But at the top level, there is a serious communication and perspective problem.

Many of the Russian grievances are perfectly valid, so are many of the Western grievances.

• US Withdrawal from Missile Treaty under Bush
• Russian redevelopment of mid range nuclear technology to threaten Europe and the Middle East

Some of the Russian grievances are valid while contradicting Western grievances which are simultaneously valid.

• Russian fears of expanding Nato
• Independent country's rights to join Nato

I fully and completely support Crimea's right to reunify with Russia, provided it's done legally, although I think the preferable solution would be full autonomy, due to the ethnic composition and it's potential to thrive as a tourist economy alone.

I absolutely do not support Ukraine joining the European Union, until they have undergone serious reform. It would be terribly convenient if the security and economic crisis acted as a catalyst for Ukrainian entry, but I hope the Europeans have learned sufficiently from the Greek revelations not to allow this happen.

As someone who consider myself Neutral (or Pro-Europe anyway), I consider myself receptive to arguments from all sides. Some of the points that Putin and especially Lavrov articulate are completely undeniable, even from a non-Russian perspective.
And prior to the regional destabilzation, many in Europe & the US were becoming more receptive to the Russian perspective, while the Europe/US relationship was increasingly strained to many US violations of International Law, Political Spying, Industrial Espionage, Financial Crisis et al.

I therefore consider it astonishing that Russia could BLUNDER so incredibly in their annexation of Crimea, and sabre-rattle their way into presenting a credible threat sufficient to push Europe and the US back together at a time when US torture is all over the media and US hypocrisy is an established fact across the globe.
Only a military threat could have allowed Europe to overlook US hypocrisy, just as it allowed the WW2 allies to overlook Soviet hypocrisy & the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and almost as if to remove any remaining doubt, an airliner was shot down.

So as I see it, while we don't want ordinary people in Crimea or Russia to suffer, we don't have a choice.
To quote Putin himself:

No matter how targeted the strikes or how sophisticated the weapons, civilian casualties are inevitable, including the elderly and children, whom the strikes are meant to protect.

The world reacts by asking: if you cannot count on international law, then you must find other ways to ensure your security. Thus a growing number of countries seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction. This is logical: if you have the bomb, no one will touch you. We are left with talk of the need to strengthen nonproliferation, when in reality this is being eroded.

We must stop using the language of force and return to the path of civilized diplomatic and political settlement.

I predicted sanctions would be used way back before Yanukovich was ousted. I never really imagined they would be quite this effective tho.

Dannyboy83

RandomName2 wrote: »

I don't understand. If anything the US is China's "dog" as it's world’s largest foreign owner of U.S. government debt.



Most of the northern hemisphere is concerned with curtailing Russian territorial ambitions. It is the threat of nuclear war which curtails that concern.

As for not wanting the Ukraine in the EU - I think you should see what the EU leaders actually want, rather than what you personally feel. The EU as a whole is fairly determined to have the Ukraine join: and this is really the first time that the expansion of two powers have come to a head in Europe since Detente.



Seeing that the US has explicitly banned trade with the Crimea, I'd say most definitely "yes".

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/20/world/europe/us-tightens-crimea-embargo-to-pressure-russia.html?_r=0

My first post in this thread was unreasonably hostile and blunt, as I thought he was yet another of the many trolls/shills we've had to endure, although his subsequent posts have proven otherwise.

View

Armistice wrote: »

If Ukraine want to cut the power to Crimea then they should acknowledge that Crimea is not Ukraine anymore. however they have not done this and are insisting that Crimea is an inseparable part of Ukraine. So by their own logic, Crimea should be powered by Ukraine.

No country has any obligation to provide assistance to enemy occupied territory - territory illegally occupied by another country in violation of international law.

Rather the obligation falls entirely upon the invading country and any failure is entirely its responsibility.

Based on your idea, the Soviet Union would have been obligated to provide power and other amenities to the territories of the Soviet Union occupied by Nazi Germany during WWII - an utterly bizarre proposition and one which would have earned any Russian who made it a one-way ticket to a gulag.

Armistice

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

My partner is ethnic Russian, born in the USSR, Lithuanian by default, and now an Irish citizen.
She's not entitled to anything in Lithuania, she pays her taxes to the Irish government.

You're not bound by your ethnicity & taking pride in your Russian heritage does not mean you are bound to support a despotic regime.
Many in the Irish diaspora were highly critical at the ridiculous way in which the Irish state was managed. If they hadn't been, it may have taken much longer to improve.

(p.s. I think Nationalism is stupid anyway, so I would take pride in the term turncoat frankly, but I don't see room for debate in terms of Ukraine's obligation to Crimea, especially when the blackouts are nationwide)

I totally agree with these sentiments.

I can also agree with a lot of what people here are saying regarding Ukraine not really having any obligation. Of course I have an emotional and very real concern for loved ones there that sometimes makes it difficult to see the bigger picture when I'm worrying about family members with no electricity.

I absolutely do not think Ukraine is ready for the EU from my own personal experiences there , not in it's current form anyway. I just can't see the East Ukrainians opening up to the West as quickly as the West Ukrainians and Kiev would like to. To add to what was said before about Greece in the EU, it would be similar in ways to Ukraine except on a massive scale.

I have met some of the nicest, kindest, most warm hearted people in both ukraine and Crimea, that I have ever met anywhere, Russians and Ukrainians alike. But there is far too much endemic corruption and the ethnic divisions are still very intense in places.

Many younger people there grow tired of waiting for their politics to catch up with the modern world and leave to find a better life in the West, and who can blame them.

Ukraine is at a turning point in it's history (As is Russia and Crimea) and we are witnessing it, some of us know people who are actually living through it. In many ways millions of people are still feeling the negative effects of the old USSR.

In my opinion what comes out of the other side of this conflict will play an important role in the shape of Eastern Europe to come.

In an ideal world Ukraine would get a divorce with itself. Like the Czech Republic and Slovakia did. A smaller more politically unified Ukraine could realize it's EU dreams more quickly, and East Ukrainian Donbass could keep it's important export relations with Russia.

Russia could calm down knowing it has it's buffer zone, and ideally Crimea would be an independent small state that could focus on it's tourism similar to Croatia or Slovenia and earn extra money from renting Sevastopol naval base out to Russia. Each side gets something from this. Unfortunately I don't think this will happen.

I just hope that whatever happens, innocent civilians on both sides can come through it as safely and quickly as possible.