help needed with pup nipping

angeldaisy

Okay, I'm failing with getting elly to stop nipping. She's approx 9mths old, we've had her since shes was about 4mths, she's a collie cross.

I don't think she was taught about mouthing when she was a pup, because she is constantly biting, this can range from just applying light pressure to sharp nipping,

The main issue with getting her to stop this is when she gets excited, especially when she sees me.
in a morning when she is let out of her crate she will jump all over me nipping. Any training I've been working on goes straight out the window as she's so excited. She is also constantly nipping at Tara, and ignores her warning signs. This can then escalate into a fight if I'm not careful. Its like she has not learnt any acceptable behavours from her mum or litter mates.

I'm trying to get started with clicker training, but I'm just at the early stages of that.

Is there anything I should be doing, or doing wrong?

IP freely

angeldaisy wrote: »

Okay, I'm failing with getting elly to stop nipping. She's approx 9mths old, we've had her since shes was about 4mths, she's a collie cross.

I don't think she was taught about mouthing when she was a pup, because she is constantly biting, this can range from just applying light pressure to sharp nipping,

The main issue with getting her to stop this is when she gets excited, especially when she sees me.
in a morning when she is let out of her crate she will jump all over me nipping. Any training I've been working on goes straight out the window as she's so excited. She is also constantly nipping at Tara, and ignores her warning signs. This can then escalate into a fight if I'm not careful. Its like she has not learnt any acceptable behavours from her mum or litter mates.

I'm trying to get started with clicker training, but I'm just at the early stages of that.

Is there anything I should be doing, or doing wrong?

A fairly load yelp / ouch each time she does it should do the trick.

tk123

IP freely wrote: »

A fairly load yelp / ouch each time she does it should do the trick.

This never worked for me because I was giving Bailey what he wanted - a reaction to his hijinks! Saying his bold word (was 'too-bad' but is now ' that's enough') and putting him of the room every time he was bold did the trick. With Lucy I just have to say it to her once and she stops messing - she was never bitey with us thanks to her big bro!

What are you doing atm when she's too excited/nipping

Hooked

Hey AD

I'm not gonna be great help on the nipping directly... But... As she is crate trained, perhaps letting her relax before letting her out might aid the educating process?

With Jack, he tends to get fierce excited in the mornings, when getting out of the car and before meals.

I saw a programme once where it explained how a dogs brain, or rather, parts of the brain, worked.

Once over excited - they lost the ability to obey commands and basic training went out the window.

My point is - let the excitement pass or die down before opening the crate. Or in our case, when feeding, releasing from the car, etc... I usually walk around the kitchen and boil the kettle before I even acknowledge them. And they are always made wait, instead of wolfing down food immediately. Calmly does it.

Luckily for us, Hugo taught Jack a soft mouth. But.., jacks excitement far outweighs that of his brother. We need to work at calming him down quite a bit.

But... As with all things... We find the older he gets, the more he learns and the more relaxed he gets... Thank god!!!

angeldaisy

We use ah ah to get her to stop doing something, makes no difference when she's excited though. Making loud noises when she bites has no effect either really.

I like your theory hooked, I'll give that a go. Its definitely excitement, she nearly came through the patio door after she saw me this morning.
Did it take long for jack to calm down before you open the crate? Elly cries and cries to be let out, that horrible high pitched puppy cry - earsplitting!!

Hooked

angeldaisy wrote: »

I like your theory hooked...
Did it take long for jack to calm down before you open the crate? Elly cries and cries to be let out, that horrible high pitched puppy cry - earsplitting!!

Some mornings he's calm... I potter about and let him out after a min or 2. Other mornings... Crying like you describe above. I just have to be stern and ignore it till he's quiet. Problem is, Hugo is right beside him... And sometimes Jack sets him off!

Just a while ago, we had them out walking. My OH had Hugo... And Jack was pulling like mad. Each time he pulled, I made him wait and sit, till he calmed down. High pitched crying, giving out... Traffic stood still watching me. Passers by looking at me as if I was Mr Cruel!

You just have to persist. They want their way. You want to teach them your way. It's tough but you have to keep at it... Especially as they are puppies. I just kept looking up the road at Hugo trotting along beside my fiancée, well behaved and you could walk him with your baby finger.

He was once a nightmare, like Jack was today. And like your nipping problem... Put in the hard work now to have a lifetime of reward. Pups are tough work at times! They don't mean it.., they're just young and unsure of what's right!

DBB

angeldaisy wrote: »

We use ah ah to get her to stop doing something, makes no difference when she's excited though. Making loud noises when she bites has no effect either really.

Making noise at her is bound not to work in the longer term. Some pups stop biting if they happen to be very sound-sensitive, but most realise that once you say "ah ah" (or equivalent), that if they ignore you, what are you going to do about it?!
At the moment, and this is what Hooked was presumably watching on that documentary, she is being driven entirely by her emotions: she sees you, she gets excited, she acts on that excitement... and what's the worst that happens? You say "ah ah"! Big deal! It's just not enough to convince her to stop, because the buzz she's getting from being excited overrides any attempts at verbal correction!
This emotional state is driven by a very primitive part of her brain (the amygdala), and inhibits any thoughts of being calm or controlled. However, the process of training and providing consequences (good and bad) helps to teach our dogs to use a different part of their brain, a more advanced part (the cerebral cortex), and using this inhibits the emotional behaviour controlled by that primitive part of the brain that we see in puppies and untrained dogs. So, teaching our dogs an alternative behaviour to jumping up/excitability, and making sure she does not get reinforced for doing anything other than this desired behaviour, allows her to tap into the "sensible" side of her brain, keeping the emotional behaviour at bay.
How to provide those consequences?
I'm pretty sure you have the reinforcement sde of things sorted, giving her treats and praise and cuddles when she gets things right. Have you taught her a reliable sit? If so, have you introduced the idea of a release cue? That is, she remains in the sit until explicitly verbally cued that she can stop sitting now? I love release cues, I think they really help with controllability. If you'd like more help with this, just shout!
It is really important to start invoking time-outs, and withholding desired rewards with her. The reward she's getting from each excitable interaction has to be removed, only to re-appear when she starts to exercise some self-control and manners.
Take it from this point... "ah ah" is to tell her to stop doing something, "that's enough" is to tell her that either she's about to be put out of the room, or you're about to leave the room.
So, when she's outside, and you want to let her in, ask her to sit. If she sits, open the door. If she stands up or does anything that's not sitting, tell her "ah ah", and close the door again. Now ask her to sit again. Open the door. If she jumps up, "ah ah", and close it again. And so on, until she remains sitting... only sitting gets her invited inside, and you have full control of this because you've got the door!
If she does not jump up, give her the release cue and let her in. Ask her to sit again. If she gets excited/jumpy-uppy/nippy, say "that's enough" and out she goes again. If she sits, give her that greeting she's looking for.
If she gets up during this, stop, stand up straight, say "ah ah", and give her a chance to sit again. If she sits again, the attention starts again. If she gets up and gets excited, say "that's enough", and out she goes, for 30 seconds.
Or, you can leave the room for 30 seconds. Whatever suits you better at that moment.
If you're about the house and she starts getting too much, and you say "ah ah" as usual but she does not stop, now say "that's enough" and bring her outside, or to another dog-proof and boring room, or you leave the room yourself.
So, the "ah ah" begins to let her know that if she continues with the messing, she's going to suffer a consequence, and so that "ah ah" now develops some meaning, some relevance. It's not that bad a consequence, but it removes her from being inadvertently reinforced by people trying to get her under control.
It can really help to have a short ribbon or lead attached to her collar so that you can lead her to the Time-out zone without having to touch her, beg her, or manhandle her, but do bear in mind that she should not be left on her own unsupervised with anything attached to her collar.
You will always find this a challenge in the first few days, and you may have to repeat the sequence quite a number of times with a dog that has become habitual in their nippiness, so brace yourself for that.. it may get worse before it gets better! You also need to resolve yourself to be consistent, so that she is left with no doubt that she is always met with the same consequences when she becomes too much.

angeldaisy

Brilliant, thanks so much for all the advice.

DBB I'd love some info on release cues please. She will sit on command but has very little attention span so its a work in progress!!

I tried leaving her in her cage this morning and she wasnt as bad when I did let her out. She actually settled down on the bed and went to sleep - well it was 6.30am!!!