CAF MK4 in Dire need of refurbishment

GM228

BoatMad wrote: »

I find it strange that IR have decided to base the whole intercity fleet on one fixed configuration railcar system.. Ive not seen that done in any european country, you usually get a mix of stock

Given that IR have upwards of 50 locos in the current stock available for use, its seems rather bizarre to paint yourself into such a corner. I mean they have no easy way to reconfigure sets, can't easy respond to demand levels, without committing a whole extra train set, etc

Then they have the issue of having to bring the whole train to the service centre, ( isn't it every two days). whereas at least with locos , you just brought the motive power unit.

What happens as the 22Ks age and get less reliable. ??

I could understand if IR had a severe shortage of suitable locos, but in fact its the other way around, There must be justification for expanding the standard coaching stock fleet. I this can't fathom why the mark III weren't refurbished, even if only to provide three to four additional train sets. I mean even develop more DVT, pull pull sets with the 201s etc.

can anyone explain the reasoning. scrap perfectly useful coaches, leave 30 201s loco will no real role, etc

You are correct the engines could just go off to the depot for a service-but the carriages also required similar servicing schedules.

It's easy to say/wish IE would/should do this that or the other, but strictly from a business/operation point of view railcars are far more superior and flexible than locos.

They are also cheaper to run and maintain and less likely to be a complete failure. Loco hauled sets require a guard and also run-round facilities which a lot of placea don't have and also increase turn around times.

Railcars also have superior acceleration and deceleration thus providing a better timetable.

As much as we may have wanted to see the Mk3s refurbished this simply would never have happened due to the cost and practicality.

GM228

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

I find it strange that IR have decided to base the whole intercity fleet on one fixed configuration railcar system.. Ive not seen that done in any european country, you usually get a mix of stock

Given that IR have upwards of 50 locos in the current stock available for use, its seems rather bizarre to paint yourself into such a corner. I mean they have no easy way to reconfigure sets, can't easy respond to demand levels, without committing a whole extra train set, etc

Then they have the issue of having to bring the whole train to the service centre, ( isn't it every two days). whereas at least with locos , you just brought the motive power unit.

What happens as the 22Ks age and get less reliable. ??

I could understand if IR had a severe shortage of suitable locos, but in fact its the other way around, There must be justification for expanding the standard coaching stock fleet. I this can't fathom why the mark III weren't refurbished, even if only to provide three to four additional train sets. I mean even develop more DVT, pull pull sets with the 201s etc.

can anyone explain the reasoning. scrap perfectly useful coaches, leave 30 201s loco will no real role, etc

i know the answer i'd like to give but i'l bite my tongue. apparently they would have cost billions to refurbish, and god knows what else. the real reason i suspect was they weren't shiny and new, and we all know how shiny and new will bring hords of customers unlike other things such as comfort or even speed. it failed, and now we are stuck, and lines are suffering. frankly the last boss if i had my way would be jailed for the waste and everything he has done to our railway

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

from a business/operation point of view railcars are far more superior and flexible than locos.

how superior. apart from the acceleration they have nothing more to offer
as for being more flexible, no . if they were bought as single coach or even 2 coach at a stretch, they may be. but to be flexible, railcars need lots and lots of sets which means sets sitting around. with carriges, you stick on a carrige or 2 if its known the train is going to be packed, which for our railway which much lines traffic isn't static, is realistically needed. remember railcars were originally designed for low traffic lines, lj waterford/limerick-ballybroaphy/limerick-galway/rosslare dublin at this stage they would work. everywhere else not really.

GM228 wrote: »

They are also cheaper to run and maintain and less likely to be a complete failure.

well, debatible. they would certainly be cheeper to run if people are crammed in like industrial chickens in to ridiculously short trains. but if IE was to run the required carriges for certain services, a loco and carriges would work out.

GM228 wrote: »

Loco hauled sets require a guard and also run-round facilities which a lot of placea don't have and also increase turn around times.

well, not if driving van trailors were made up, they wouldn't need run around facilities. as for the gard, all long distance services should have someone else on board anyway to deal with issues, the driver has enough to do driving the train without being expected to deal with passenger issues.

GM228 wrote: »

Railcars also have superior acceleration and deceleration thus providing a better timetable.

sure. but that doesn't matter if the trains are so short or can't be made up to demand so people can get on in the first place, and have to wait 2 3 or even in my case 4/5 hours for much of the day for another one.

GM228 wrote: »

As much as we may have wanted to see the Mk3s refurbished this simply would never have happened due to the cost and practicality.

come off it. it wouldn't cost that much to refurbish them. they could have easily been given grandfather rights, and we don't have to apply every little disability ruling or rule in relation to stock. if the UK can still run clapped out falling apart railbuses, then we could operate mark 3 stock. the reason they were thrown away, because they weren't shiny and new, the government offered money for new trains which should have been only to replace the mark 2 and cravens stock and to allow for future growth, and it was a exercise to try fool the people into thinking the railway was improving. it failed, and the public isn't buying it.

Chemical Byrne

BoatMad wrote: »

What happens as the 22Ks age and get less reliable. ??

I don't think that is something that we need fret about. Shur IE don't let their stock age, they just withdraw and scrap them at the 1/4 life point ala the 8200s, 2700s, MkIIIs.

Captain Chaos

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I don't think that is something that we need fret about. Shur IE don't let their stock age, they just withdraw and scrap them at the 1/4 life point ala the 8200s, 2700s, MkIIIs.

The 8200s had to be withdrawn as they were lemons not not part of a common fleet increasing costs. The 2700s only worked well when operated as 2 car sets and with very regular maintenance inspections. They were hopeless as 6 car sets on the Rosslare line and could not keep to the timetable that an 071 with 8 Mk2 could.

end of the road

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I don't think that is something that we need fret about. Shur IE don't let their stock age, they just withdraw and scrap them at the 1/4 life point ala the 8200s, 2700s, MkIIIs.

the 8200s were junk though. mind you the fact there was no action taken against alsthom/alstom by IE over them is something i'l never understand

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The 8200s had to be withdrawn as they were lemons not not part of a common fleet increasing costs. The 2700s only worked well when operated as 2 car sets and with very regular maintenance inspections. They were hopeless as 8 car sets on the Rosslare line and could not keep to the timetable that an 071 with 8 Mk2 could.

also they were horid and rickity and jolted and swung like mad. holding on and almost been thrown was a way of life with them. i don't think anything can keep to the time of 071 and MK2. the journey time has got slower (all though extra stops have been added over the years within the dublin area) so its probably not surprising

Chemical Byrne

weren't the 8200s essentially an electrified version of the 2700?
What precisely were the reliability issues with both of these classes. We always hear they were unreliable but there's never any more detail.

BoatMad

GM228 wrote: »

You are correct the engines could just go off to the depot for a service-but the carriages also required similar servicing schedules.

Carraiges have quite relaxed servicing schedules so thats not really an issue

It's easy to say/wish IE would/should do this that or the other, but strictly from a business/operation point of view railcars are far more superior and flexible than locos.

hmm, the whole thing looses money hand over fist, what business case. anyone wholes been in business can get very cynical about "business cases" , I must have written about 400 capexs in my time in corporate land, I could business case anything !!!.

They are also cheaper to run and maintain and less likely to be a complete failure. Loco hauled sets require a guard and also run-round facilities which a lot of placea don't have and also increase turn around times.

Yes but personnel reduction is only nominal , The guard was also the ticket collector etc, Theres no actual reduction in personal, they just get shunted somewhere else .

Every where HAD run around places. also I not see IRs timing being so tight that run-rounds are an issue. in fact in many cases with DMUs, they had to relax the timing !, because the locos had more power.

Railcars also have superior acceleration and deceleration thus providing a better timetable.

hmmm, double hmmm.

As much as we may have wanted to see the Mk3s refurbished this simply would never have happened due to the cost and practicality.

You've picked that out of the blue, its was never tried, These coaches are in regular use in the UK.

double hmmmmmm

BoatMad

end of the road wrote: »

how superior. apart from the acceleration they have nothing more to offer
as for being more flexible, no . if they were bought as single coach or even 2 coach at a stretch, they may be. but to be flexible, railcars need lots and lots of sets which means sets sitting around. with carriges, you stick on a carrige or 2 if its known the train is going to be packed, which for our railway which much lines traffic isn't static, is realistically needed. remember railcars were originally designed for low traffic lines, lj waterford/limerick-ballybroaphy/limerick-galway/rosslare dublin at this stage they would work. everywhere else not really.



well, debatible. they would certainly be cheeper to run if people are crammed in like industrial chickens in to ridiculously short trains. but if IE was to run the required carriges for certain services, a loco and carriges would work out.



well, not if driving van trailors were made up, they wouldn't need run around facilities. as for the gard, all long distance services should have someone else on board anyway to deal with issues, the driver has enough to do driving the train without being expected to deal with passenger issues.



sure. but that doesn't matter if the trains are so short or can't be made up to demand so people can get on in the first place, and have to wait 2 3 or even in my case 4/5 hours for much of the day for another one.



come off it. it wouldn't cost that much to refurbish them. they could have easily been given grandfather rights, and we don't have to apply every little disability ruling or rule in relation to stock. if the UK can still run clapped out falling apart railbuses, then we could operate mark 3 stock. the reason they were thrown away, because they weren't shiny and new, the government offered money for new trains which should have been only to replace the mark 2 and cravens stock and to allow for future growth, and it was a exercise to try fool the people into thinking the railway was improving. it failed, and the public isn't buying it.

end-of-the-road, I think you speak the truth , especially in relation to the " shiny " bit. IN my view, an argument was advanced, especially by the greens, that he motorways were getting "billions" and therefor their had to be some " moral equivalent" investment in IR. investment justified I suspect on the very filmiest of " business cases "

Now they have a strait jacket system, which is already showing its difficulties in responding to rail demand. I don't think any other railway approaches solutions like IR

IE, IR and CIE has an enormous history of bad or mis directed capital decisions right back to 1948. IN a commercial company this would never happen, its happens here because capital is handed out for political reasons not economical or operational reasons.

Markcheese

" frankly the last boss if i had my way would be jailed for the waste and everything he has done to our railway"



Don't know the guy, or how he operated- but- how much of the problem was the government chucked large amounts of money at IE, to spend at short notice without using Irish construction staff (cos of a lack of builders) , plus politicians do like shiny new trains- (rather than shiny refurbs) , track work isn't glamorous-

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

Now they have a strait jacket system, which is already showing its difficulties in responding to rail demand. I don't think any other railway approaches solutions like IR

in one word, britain. much of its network is mostly unit based. for the long EMU sets, it works, for the short diesel sets of 5 cars or under on lines where traffic is static, it works. anything else, it doesn't. also the problem of not enough stock and of course the private companies (oops sorry i mean the DFT who have it that the private companies get blamed for everything even if its not in their control) won't pay for loco hauled bar probably at christmas. wales and scotland have a couple though.

L1011

There were Mk3s being loaded on to trailers to go to the UK *to be refurbished* this evening in North Wall. If a private tour operator can arrange it, a full-scale rail firm can.

BoatMad

end of the road wrote: »

in one word, britain. much of its network is mostly unit based. for the long EMU sets, it works, for the short diesel sets of 5 cars or under on lines where traffic is static, it works. anything else, it doesn't. also the problem of not enough stock and of course the private companies (oops sorry i mean the DFT who have it that the private companies get blamed for everything even if its not in their control) won't pay for loco hauled bar probably at christmas. wales and scotland have a couple though.

I don't think british railways can be used as a model for anythingreally.

This isn't a plea for loco hauled passenger trains, I just don't understand by perfectly good serviceable stock and a whole fleet of massively expensive ( and arguably over powered locos) is left rusting away, when a modest refurbishment of some mark 3s would have provided IR with a backup fleet, and an ability to respond to changes in demand, seasonal and special traffic without reconfiguration of awkward railcars and moving train sets all over the place.

it wouldn't surprise me to see IR buying coaches ( or DVT push pull) in a few years to provide " much needed network capacity as our railcar fleet is stretched and we have locomotive capacity " of course there will be a " business case " for that too,

BoatMad

Markcheese wrote: »

" frankly the last boss if i had my way would be jailed for the waste and everything he has done to our railway"



Don't know the guy, or how he operated- but- how much of the problem was the government chucked large amounts of money at IE, to spend at short notice without using Irish construction staff (cos of a lack of builders) , plus politicians do like shiny new trains- (rather than shiny refurbs) , track work isn't glamorous-

bang on, "lets build a modern railway" says the politicians, "looks good on the IDA brochure cover", " yes and those horrible polluting cars and terrible motorways are getting way too much money " says the Green Party politician

manager of IR sticks head into engineers office " Hey Bill, we seems to have got approval for €500million all of a sudden", " Serious, really, wow" says Bill the engineer , " Yeah, find a plan to spend it quick , cause they'll change their mind" says the manager

" Ok says" says Bill , reaching for the drawer marked " projects with not a hope in hell"

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't think british railways can be used as a model for anythingreally.

true. a fair point

BoatMad wrote: »

This isn't a plea for loco hauled passenger trains

oh i know that.

BoatMad wrote: »

I just don't understand by perfectly good serviceable stock and a whole fleet of massively expensive ( and arguably over powered locos) is left rusting away, when a modest refurbishment of some mark 3s would have provided IR with a backup fleet, and an ability to respond to changes in demand, seasonal and special traffic without reconfiguration of awkward railcars and moving train sets all over the place.

neither do i . it was just the celtic tiger throw away shiny and new nonsense at play

BoatMad wrote: »

it wouldn't surprise me to see IR buying coaches ( or DVT push pull) in a few years to provide " much needed network capacity as our railcar fleet is stretched and we have locomotive capacity " of course there will be a " business case " for that too,

i wouldn't bank on it myself to be honest. still, stranger things have happened.

BoatMad

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Has it ever before happened in IE/CIE that rollign stock was withdrawn, stored for a few years and then returned to service?

else where in the UK , theres such a shortage of locomotives due to increase in rail freight , that they are refurbishing old locos, and due to Teir 3 engines shortages both the EU and the USA have given extensions to allow Teir 2 locomotives to be refurbished and reused. The yanks have such demand, they are combining the countryside looking for freight locos.

Itssoeasy

Just siting on a mk4 carriage which is forming the 7:00 am cork Heuston and I walked down three carriages and two were fine but the carpet in one looked in rag order.

Jamie2k9

On a Mark IV now and IE have splashed out on new Green carpet with Navy stripes! New seats should be next.

dowlingm

Chiltern spent a ton of money refitting some of their 3s with wider doors and bathrooms so while some things are allowed like only having some coaches accessible, the UK doesn't allow complete liberties. It is probably not wise to rely on emissions exemptions for pre Stage IIIA locomotives lasting forever either.

GM228

There's a mention of the IE Twitter handle that they are seeking funding for retro-fitting sockets on the Mk4s! Long overdue!

GM228