The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2015

evolving tipperary

"I thinks that's very obvious and we all know that. But is that good enough? Continuity of what exactly? We have been close but not good enough so why is this assistant going to suddenly get us over the edge? We've had how many years of same voices. Something else is needed."

Why is it not good enough? - How many All Irelands have Cork, Galway, Wexford, Limerick, Offaly, Dublin, Waterford, won since 2006? How many All-Ireland have Tipp contested since 2006? How many of the rest? We've been second - the closest to the most dominant team of how long? Not good enough? Good enough but not the best - at the top table for certain. There were long periods where Tipp weren't.

You've said "we all know that" and it's "very obvious" ----but you ask me then, continuity of what? Are you serious?

Why is Ryan not going to get us over the edge? John Allen went from a masseuse with Cork to being an All-Ireland winning Cork manager...

Has not Ryan served his time? Does he not deserve a crack? Why would another person deserve it more? Why would another person be better?

"Same voices..." - then why are the players upset to see Eamon go?

Years of the same voices.... = three years Eamon was in charge and another three with Liam...- hardly very long in comparison to Cody...

Who has run Cody closest over the last six years? Tipp? Eamon was a huge part of those six and he was part of the decision to keep Ryan on board... - makes perfect sense to him. As to whether it works or not who knows. "works" for you is probably the all-ireland but Tipp just got set back big time - it will take a while to resettle this bunch - two to three years of developing wing backs, midfielders, and wing forwards is required. It's a serious job.


"Someone else is needed" - Isn't that a fantastic insight, isn't it?!?!! Come on, Sheep! Get it together!

Rasputin11

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Why? Who else was on the team bus etc? Were they the guys 24-30 not in matchday squad etc

Why would that be?

I thinks that's very obvious and we all know that. But is that good enough? Continuity of what exactly? We have been close but not good enough so why is this assistant going to suddenly get us over the edge? We've had how many years of same voices. Something else is needed.

To be honest I've no idea why the 6 lads couldn't be let come up with the group. As for your other question I guess it's to do with this theory about the Munster Final winners performing poorly in semi finals.

thinkstoomuch1

evolving tipperary wrote: »

The reason Michael Ryan was chosen is continuity.

I don't mean to be harsh and there's no easy way to say this but contuinty of what, running teams close and not winning all ireland
John Allen is a poor correlation in cork had won one all ireland and then won second all ireland without having beat kk and failed to change cork game plan at all and kk ambushed cork spectacular in 06

Cork had team already built but imo never evolved under Allen

Continue same way is fine if you win however even kk under cody always keep evolving and never remain as is

Tippeary need change and yesterday showed that clearly

Rasputin11

Rasputin11 wrote: »

I heard the 6 panel members who didn't make the 26 had to make their own way to Dublin yesterday, not a great way to treat people.

Well tbf I think the county board introduced a cost cutting measure back in 2013 where the 26 named on the panel were the 26 that travelled. While it sounds extreme, the players know the score

evolving tipperary

O'SHEA AND ryan were both part of Sheedy's all-Ireland success... so it's a continuity of that.

John Allen is a perfect correlation. Tipp had established a team when Eamon took over from Sheedy as Eamon had created a style of play when he was over Liam's team as coach. Michael Ryan went from selector with Sheedy to assistant under Eamon...

There was no easy way to say that!!!! Michael Ryan, like O'Shea, has been involved since 2007.

They both done a hell of a lot better than any other competitor to KK since 2006.

All you can do is train a team to put them in finals - players have to take responsibility too. A manager and backroom is a major factor but not the only major factor. Running down Michael Ryan like he has been some massive failure is nonsense and just wrong.

Michael Ryan was also away for a few years before he came back into the fold...

blackcard

As a KK man, can I say how much I admired the style that EOS brought to hurling, I think the drawn AI in 2014 will go down as one of the greats and the attacking performance of his team that day is the finest I have ever seen. Also was classy in his interviews. Won't miss seeing his windmill celebration after scoring a goal against us.

evolving tipperary

I enjoyed it too, one of the best types of hurling I've seen. Such intricate forward play! I sent him an email of thanks today

The Lost Sheep

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Why is it not good enough? - How many All Irelands have Cork, Galway, Wexford, Limerick, Offaly, Dublin, Waterford, won since 2006? How many All-Ireland have Tipp contested since 2006? How many of the rest? We've been second - the closest to the most dominant team of how long? Not good enough? Good enough but not the best - at the top table for certain. There were long periods where Tipp weren't.

You've said "we all know that" and it's "very obvious" ----but you ask me then, continuity of what? Are you serious?

Why is Ryan not going to get us over the edge? John Allen went from a masseuse with Cork to being an All-Ireland winning Cork manager...

Has not Ryan served his time? Does he not deserve a crack? Why would another person deserve it more? Why would another person be better?

"Same voices..." - then why are the players upset to see Eamon go?

Years of the same voices.... = three years Eamon was in charge and another three with Liam...- hardly very long in comparison to Cody...

Who has run Cody closest over the last six years? Tipp? Eamon was a huge part of those six and he was part of the decision to keep Ryan on board... - makes perfect sense to him. As to whether it works or not who knows. "works" for you is probably the all-ireland but Tipp just got set back big time - it will take a while to resettle this bunch - two to three years of developing wing backs, midfielders, and wing forwards is required. It's a serious job.

"Someone else is needed" - Isn't that a fantastic insight, isn't it?!?!! Come on, Sheep! Get it together!

:rolleyes:
Yeah continuity of being second. Our new Head coach has been part of our management team for how long and while we've contended for all Irelands we've always fallen short. What evidence is there he can do better than EOS? We need something new. A new voice. Bring freshness to the whole squad
You don't pick people who deserve the role the most. You pick the best candidate. Is our new manager better than all potential alternatives? What was the list of all alternatives? Oh wait. We don't know as we named a successor before looking at every potential new manager.
Cody has always been winning. Averages over 2 titles per year of his time of manager.
2-3 years of rebuilding of a side who's new manager has been involved in coaching for several years in the last 4/5 years... great

evolving tipperary

Naw first in 2010 - which kept up the rate of Tipp's all-ireland every decade. That has been the standard whether you like it or not.

I notice you didn't answer my questions like I answered yours. Because your not able. Because you don't know what you're talking about. Hence, why you fixate on winning things and calling eamon o'shea and michael as experts in coming second which is wrong. Michael Ryan was a winner as a player and selector.

Yeah, freshness will bring success. That's how it works...

Michael Ryan's cv looks as good as most - he's done his apprenticeship.

Cody is not the norm

The Lost Sheep

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Naw first in 2010 - which kept up the rate of Tipp's all-ireland every decade. That has been the standard whether you like it or not.

I notice you didn't answer my questions like I answered yours. Because your not able. Because you don't know what you're talking about. Hence, why you fixate on winning things and calling eamon o'shea and michael as experts in coming second which is wrong. Michael Ryan was a winner as a player and selector.

Yeah, freshness will bring success. That's how it works...

Michael Ryan's cv looks as good as most - he's done his apprenticeship.

Cody is not the norm

I am able. You and most others here have been fixated on winning and to criticise me for that is hypocritical if you cant look at yourself.
The squad has constantly finished second, be it to one of the best sides ever, but its 5 years since the all Ireland win. We are going back to one of the same management team once again. How is that good?
Why should anybody have to get a go because they spent time as an assistant. That shouldn't be how any side with genuine aspirations of success works.
We need a fresh voice. Someone who can come in with a completely clean slate. Build up anew and see where we can go. On basis of yesterday there's a hell of lot of work to do and someone new and different is needed to get the most of our players

I think the whole frustration comes from the fact that we are so achingly close from landing the big one each year and yet so far away.

EOS is a brilliant coach and all around top bloke but i just get the sense that there is a level this group of players can go to and im not sure Eamon is the man that can bring us there. I would have my doubts about Michael also but i hope he proves me wrong.

Anthony Daly described Galway as 'ravenous' and insatibly hungry last night on the Sunday game. I cant remember a time where we can honestly describe ourselves as that since Sept 5 2010. Our tendency to be dominated for spells in games would suggest that we cannot maintain our tempo throughout. Compare that with Galway yesterday who never let us out of sight. They were wholeheartedly convinced they could beat us and smelt blood very early.

For Tipperary, the road to Croker 2016 has to start today. No stone must be left unturned between this year and next. They had plenty of incentive this year to up the ante - Eamons final year, Noels illness, new young faces, the pain endured since 2010, but while there has been some admirable performances i got the sense that some of these factors either dont bother us enough or either erode our belief to an extent that we have a mental block. We dont quite do siege mentalities in the same way as we probably should. We should be unbelievably paranoid given we neighbour several strong hurling counties.

Id question the rather erratic nature of our selection policies over the last two years at least. We had Mikey Breen who done himself the world of good during the league this year akin to Denis Maher last year and yet was dropped for the Limerick game, was arguably swept off too early in the Munster final and got a minute yesterday deep into extra time??
Shane Bourke who was dropped not too long ago was first sub, similarily Eoin Kelly last year while a legend i think we all knew his legs were gone. Hardly the ideal sub to introduce when you need a score against a tired Kilkenny team. It was crying out for a young man with the ability to win ball to come in.

And i think Pa Bourke can genuinely feel very hard done by for his omission too given there is alot of lads currently on that bench that i fail to see how exactly what they are offering. I would add the recently dropped Gearoid Ryan and Denis Maher to the category of feeling hard done by given they would at least battle for the dirty ball.

One thing i will say about Tipperary as a good Clonmel friend of mine pointed out on Saturday is that we have that magic ability to bounceback (bouncebackability to coin a once used Iain Dowie phrase). Similar to Mayo, no matter how big the disappointment we always come back for more the following year but i dearly hope we dont venture down Mayo avenue and take a wrong sharp turn on Waterford way because that is a dark unforgiving path

We require fine tuning. Cut out the bullshít and the over elaboration be slightly more pragmatic. Put more pressure on opposition half back lines. We need to place huge emphasis on turn overs next year. It has been the cornerstone of what Kilkenny have built their success on over the year. Galways 12th point yesterday seen them play it up the left wing virtually unchallenged and it came from a misplaced Tipperary pass at the other end. Kilkenny would have picked us off for sport yesterday. Like the good pugilist we need to keep our gloves up that little bit more.

buggy beag

Just watched the match back there.just a few small points.thought we were well in it until around the half hour mark,forwards were moving well,we were creating space up there and getting the scores think it was 1 7 outa 1 8 we had from play but then galway stepped it up a gear and carried that into the second half and we just couldnt step up that gear with them.dont think paudies cut out for cb,to loose for that position,not basing this on just yesterday just think hes a natural wing back and plays his best hurling there same with brendan maher.midfield definitely needs two new lads who i dont know.shane and woody have been great servants owe us nothing but time has come for change.so frustrating to our inability to win our own ball in the half forward line,how many years has this been a problem now and still it persists.shane bourke coming on was the wrong decision hes just not up to the highest level and hes a small man sending him in there with that physical battle that was going on was never going to work.anyways going to be a long winter waiting for next year and wheter continuity with michael is good or bad its done he deserves all the support we can give him and see from there.best of luck to galway in the final wouldnt begrudge them their win were due a big win over us with a long time,1988 long time to be without an all ireland so hopfully they do what we usually dont and thats beat kk

evolving tipperary

Your questioning the logic of the decision to give Michael Ryan the job...I'm providing you with the logic behind it...

You're not providing any candidates or reasons as to why their better than Ryan - just stating things like freshness and new voices - which is baffling considering that the players want o'Shea to stay...

It's irrational. Like most supporters who don't get what they want you point at a reason for losing and try to attach blame to someone - usually an outside factor to the players because to admit the players are the issue is to reach a terrible conclusion - I'll spell it out for you - Kilkenny won all those all-irelands because they have a better management team and players than everybody- it's not down to management - Tipp didn't win the other ones because they weren't good enough - If Cody was in charge in of Tipp and O'Shea in charge of KK - same results - because KK have system of production and means of producing players which works to produce a large turn over of players - through a focus one one sport - it's not coincidence

I don't necessarily see Ryan as the best candidate but I can see the logic behind it. It's quite sound.

I called for William Maher and Mark O'Leary to be brought into the coaching staff a long time ago - at least two years ago - so that they could be prepped to take over.

The same management team again - it's not Michael Ryan is the new head - how do you know who he will bring with him or what changes he will make - What for certain though, is that the same players will be more or less present again...why? because they're good and reflect the best in the county - and, yes, their also for the most part, apart from 2010, the second best team in ireland. Everyone knows that, just like the management....

Mantis Toboggan

Still depressed after yesterday. Think most things have been covered over the last few pages of this thread so won't really talk about the game.

My only hope for the future is that we start introducing more young players, at an earlier stage, trust them. Was surprised when cathal Barrett was called up. I know him well, but very few players are given the chance. Lads he's been one of our best players these last two seasons. He was given a chance, trusted, and he delivered in spades. There's more players out there just like him, that I can guarantee. We've been looking at the same faces on the panel for a few years now, players who just aren't good enough, won't be good enough next year and maybe if we're honest possibly where never good enough. Our midfield yesterday was a joke. No offence to the lads involved but I don't think either are good enough.

I mentioned a few weeks back that we didn't have anyone on the bench who could come on and change the game and I think that was so obvious yesterday. The decision to bring on Shane Bourke at half time was outrageous, again another player not good enough for top level inter county hurling.

The brendan Maher experiment needs to stop. He's not a forward end of story, he's too good a player to be messing him around. I'm not just having a go at the players because we lost yesterday, these have been my thoughts for a long time now. Next year hopefully we'll see big changes. Not overly happy to see Michael ryan take over as I feel a complete change may be needed but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. I'll have my Galway hat on for the final but I won't be holding my breath!

evolving tipperary

Where is the evidence to suggest that the players are capable of a level beyond their current? And, that O'Shea was holding them back from this level? If Callanan was our best player the last two years, who brought him to this form, who was seamie tearful about leaving in the interview after the game?

Can Eamon be held responsible for the loss of Cahill, Saint, and Noelie?

The Shane Bourke decision was dire - but, it's not where this game was lost - there were far bigger problems yesterday than that. Right at the spine of the team.

I don't see the potential you see in Denis Maher - never has delivered to the extent for Thurles that would suggest he could for Tipp? Certainly, has never strung two outstanding 70 mins together for Tipp in championship at senior level....i think you write more in hope than in facts regarding Denis...and, I've seen him, deliver a championship game that commanded he be played.

Michael Breen was cat against Waterford - and he didn't do enough to push himself into the team. He has hurling in him but he is still a bit green...nothing suggested he was ready for KK. I think yesterday was a bit of a freak - Galway should have won by ten - it was one of those emotional games - a shootout - that we never should have got dragged into. But, we did because we didn't have the cool heads in midfield, center forward, and center back (nevermind wing back or forward - which were just dire) to control the game and change the pace of it. Panic. We had two wing backs scalded by two extremely talented young guys on the scene - we have failed to produce those players...- there's certainly nothing in Denis Maher which resembles McGlynn

Pa Bourke was destroyed against KK and other teams more than once - the game has moved from the likes of Pa - great skill but not up to it physically

evolving tipperary

Was Cathal Barret given a chance or played so well he couldn't be left out? I'd say the latter...

Well to be fair it might be a bit wrong to judge Michael before he has actually managed a single game. He does have a bit of determination about him in fairness. I do hope that he brings something different to the table though. We cant honestly think its 'as you were' or we'll suffer the same fate in 2016 and so on.

Im in agreement with ET in that i can see the rationale of keeping the bit of continuity and especially when you consider the 2 years after 2010.

To be honest its very little that is losing us these games. Yes we could have been battered only for Seamies haul but we could have also won comfortably had we converted the goal chances.

evolving tipperary

The real killer is...a bit more cuteness yesterday - same setup as against Waterford we would have won that game...Paudi as the free man...

But, that would not work against KK - - so I can see why O'Shea wanted to preserve with the offensive approach - a confident and intricate all guns blazing forwardline...- three wins in a row and another crack at KK with nothing to lose...full duck or no dinner...

you need to build confidence in that style with each game - touch and accuracy getting better all the time - confidence flying...


Damed if you do - damned if you don't.


But, it is an exceptionally disappointing end to the year.

evolving tipperary

Great post by Hitchens on the KK thread:

"according to the media experts, Galway were brilliant and Tipp were terrible, so how was there only 1 point in it at the end?

....and they also said it was probably the greatest hurling semi final ever (with one team playing great and the other team playing terrible)"

evolving tipperary

Galway played their best game in years - Tipp never reflected their capabilities...

that probably explains it...

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Where is the evidence to suggest that the players are capable of a level beyond their current? And, that O'Shea was holding them back from this level? If Callanan was our best player the last two years, who brought him to this form, who was seamie tearful about leaving in the interview after the game?

Can Eamon be held responsible for the loss of Cahill, Saint, and Noelie?

The Shane Bourke decision was dire - but, it's not where this game was lost - there were far bigger problems yesterday than that. Right at the spine of the team.

I don't see the potential you see in Denis Maher - never has delivered to the extent for Thurles that would suggest he could for Tipp? Certainly, has never strung two outstanding 70 mins together for Tipp in championship at senior level....i think you write more in hope than in facts regarding Denis...and, I've seen him, deliver a championship game that commanded he be played.

Michael Breen was cat against Waterford - and he didn't do enough to push himself into the team. He has hurling in him but he is still a bit green...nothing suggested he was ready for KK. I think yesterday was a bit of a freak - Galway should have won by ten - it was one of those emotional games - a shootout - that we never should have got dragged into. But, we did because we didn't have the cool heads in midfield, center forward, and center back (nevermind wing back or forward - which were just dire) to control the game and change the pace of it. Panic. We had two wing backs scalded by two extremely talented young guys on the scene - we have failed to produce those players...- there's certainly nothing in Denis Maher which resembles McGlynn

Pa Bourke was destroyed against KK and other teams more than once - the game has moved from the likes of Pa - great skill but not up to it physically

And Shane Bourke, Dan McCormack, and Conor Kenny are the future are they? Im not so sure they are much of an improvement on what we have if at all. Pa was probably one of our better players in the farce year that was 2012 and i would think we have several worse then him at the moment on the panel
Criticise Denis all you like but he'd win the dirty ball. We needed turnovers in that game yesterday. Forde wasnt going to deliver and Bourke certainly wasnt going to. Breen was poor against Waterford but should he not have maybe got 10 more minutes after getting the point? It could have brought him on a bit.

Id agree with you in terms of the fact that Eamon certainly has got the best out of Lar and Seamie and is very very good at fine tuning forward movement. In terms of the overall team though I think he was probably better suited to trainer. Id agree with him being brought back to stabilise the setup for a year but a three year term im not so sure about though admitedly we werent the biggest draw in the land after 2012 for any self respecting manager.

Wouldnt suggest that we were poor but we certainly made some costly errors. And we have a poor record in tight games which would continue in the same vein under Eamon sad to say because the same running theme seems to be apparent throughout. Since 2013 we have lost to Kilkenny twice, Limerick twice and Galway once.
Any good organisation worth their salt would agree that there is always ways of improving things. Merely putting these results down to luck, shrugging the shoulders and giving three cheers to Ramirez and you either standstill or go backwards

evolving tipperary

That was the case before Eamon - which everybody seems to ignore - there has been three management set ups with the same problems for the most part

Mantis Toboggan

evolving tipperary wrote: »

That was the case before Eamon - which everybody seems to ignore - there has been three management set ups with the same problems for the most part

Therefore is continuity a good thing?

evolving tipperary

Depends on the context?

Continuity with these players in terms of producing all-irelands has gone been very good has it?

Mantis Toboggan

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Depends on the context?

Continuity with these players in terms of producing all-irelands has gone been very good has it?

Nope which is why I feel we need a new approach, fresh ideas. The game is evolving, we need a new emphasis, new voice, new direction.

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

That was the case before Eamon - which everybody seems to ignore - there has been three management set ups with the same problems for the most part

I dont think anyone is holding Eamon up as solely responsible for our defeat and for all that is wrong with tipperary hurling but in the overall context of things i think he may have missed an opportunity to add an All ireland win to his cv. He lacked a bit of decisiveness on the line and i think he may have lacked that extra attention to detail.

I felt he had a good nucleus of players that went very close but lessons went amiss from the tight defeats. Management and players alike must share responsibility.

He has led one of the better regimes that Tipperary have had in recent times not that the competition is fierce but it will be a regime that we will look back on in years to come and think, 'if only' or 'what if'

evolving tipperary

l BUt, you could say the exact opposite of what you're saying...

That these players had the right management and support and never delivered....


The players lacked that little bit of intensity, and hunger - that attention to detail

I think what you're saying is too easy to say. I'd rather give credit to KK number one, same nucleus of players under three management regimes feel short except for one year, and thirdly, management made mistakes....

But, you are not looking at the talent relevant to kk's talent... to me it's obvious in places... - particularly in terms of wing backs, wing forwards an dmidfield over a series of generations...

It's too simplistic what you're saying...

primary 2

first of all i would like to say i was wrong in my judgement that conor o brien could be found wanting a the back,gladly i was wrong and i thought the man had a fine game and didnt let tipp down and very rarely does and gave it his all as usual.

i have been reading all of your posts here and i can see people are disappointed and hurt and we only all want to see the team achieve what it is capable of and thats all ireland sucess.

i think eamon o shea did a great job in getting the show back on the road after 2012 and is after bringing on some fine players in to the setup bubbles,barett and ronan maher and is after transforming seamie callanan into the most dangerous foward in the country and above all else a leader and a battler,would seamus callanan of a few years ago resume his place on the team after chipping his teeth? remeber he played very little 2012 and was average enough. unfortuntly for eamon we didnt reach the summit which is the name of the game.

i think micheal ryan deserves a chance,is there any alternative opitions out there? i know people will say a fresh voice is needed but maybe that he is the boss now maybe he will have a different approach and a few new ideas, i presume declan fanning will be involved again, would tommy dunne be a good man to bring back in coaching the team, the year the under 21s won the all ireland they thought alot of him and when he was involved with the dublin hurlers he was very popular and respected,it might give him a chance to get over 2012? or maybe william maher 2012 minor winning manager

i think we have problems that need to be sorted but importanly can be sorted, we have a good goalkeeper a fine good fullback in james barry with good options at corner backs a hopefully with a fully fit mickey cahill to came back, we have plenty of cover in the half back line also, we need to luck at midfield though, i think brendan maher should be put back to midfield or maybe the half back line as this is where he plays his best hurling, he was immense in 2010 at midfield and could pick off points also,would micheal breen be a option midfield? we have full foward sorted with seamie and bubbles in one corner, i think bonner should play centre foward with noel either side of him or maybe noel in the centre but we need to find two good hard working men that are also good under the high ball, gar ryan always impresses me with his workrate in the half foward line, colin o riordan is a fine fielder of the ball but i wasnt impressed with his skill or touch against limerick,is he capable of rising these parts of his game to senior intercounty standards? if he played only hurling would these aspects of his game improve? is there any one else out there that could help the cause?

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

l BUt, you could say the exact opposite of what you're saying...

That these players had the right management and support and never delivered.....

evolving tipperary wrote: »

The players lacked that little bit of intensity, and hunger - that attention to detail

I think what you're saying is too easy to say. I'd rather give credit to KK number one, same nucleus of players under three management regimes feel short except for one year, and thirdly, management made mistakes....

Why?? Why do they lack it? I mean if you play sport at the top level then surely that is something you have to work to? Why are we still getting caught with those silly puck outs or loose marking. No one is dismissing Kilkenny but i think surely given the narrow nature of our defeats we surely could have went over things with a fine tooth comb and squeze that extra bit out of our challenge? It seems to be the same recurring themes over and over again.

evolving tipperary wrote: »

But, you are not looking at the talent relevant to kk's talent... to me it's obvious in places... - particularly in terms of wing backs, wing forwards an dmidfield over a series of generations...

It's too simplistic what you're saying...

We are barely losing to Kilkenny each time so there is little to separate the talent. Physicality and intensity and attention to detail perhaps but there is nothing to separate the overall talent. If anything we probably shade it in the sticksmen department. Its the overall whole application. Even Cillian Buckley was saying recently how some of our players 'could make a ball talk'.

I get you saying that Kilkenny are that little bit better then everyone, but were we that worse off Limerick on the two occasions? or Galway yesterday? Or Waterford in the league semi? Fact is we have a tendency to be outfought and despite the talent at our disposal thats very worrying indeed.