Property Market 2015

Bob24

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

A well functioning market should support people trading up or down. Of course people's accommodation needs change throughout their life.

Now if we can just convince elderly people to trade down to something more suitable we'd have a lot more family homes available.

Property tax is one instrument for doing that (as well as discouraging speculation) and many other countries are using it much more heavily, but I guess in the current context it would be very difficult for the government to do the same.

Villa05

fret_wimp2 wrote:

based on licking my finger and sticking it in the air as my source, i would imagine that past 10 & next 10 years that there is a much larger percentage of buyers who will move multiple times, than those who buy once and for life.

If you need to or forsee the need to move on numerous occasions, you rent

When settled and advanced in your career you contemplate buying.

The problem is both the rental and purchasing markets are broken. If we spent as much time demanding that they be fixed as we do discussing prices. We might get a fix that suits everyone rather than markets that benefit a select few

DublinDilbert

Rew wrote: »

The end of the world must be near, estate agents are ring me to follow up on viewings or to see if they have other stock id be interested in :eek:

Chatting to an estate agent yesterday about a particular area, when I pointed out they had 10+ properties for sale in one development, she started laughing; 'yes we've excellent selection in that area'

iguana

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I have had relatives living in totally unsuitable accommodation so I know the mindset and it mostly seems to come down to 'having something to leave to the kids'. There also needs to be a lot more managed communities built. I know another elderly person who moved from a rural location and now has a great social life with a nice warm apartment and is really happy they did.

I know of few elderly people who live alone in a big house and in each case at least one of their adult children is struggling massively, living in tiny unsuitable accommodation with young children. It baffles me that they will keep on living in a house they use a fraction of and leave their children and grandchildren without. I can understand a person not wanting to downsize from their home for the greater good of society but in order to help their own children and grandchildren? That I don't get.

fret_wimp2

iguana wrote: »

I can understand a person not wanting to downsize from their home for the greater good of society but in order to help their own children and grandchildren? That I don't get.

Cold hard logic aside, some people have spent their lives working hard to build/purchase their property, pay the mortgage, add improvments and make it their own, their home. Its unfair that a broken system now requires that these people should now settle for something smaller, or something different, something that isnt their "home".

I say this from the perspective of my parents. My dad designed and helped build his own house. He build his own garrage on his own, by himself. He concreted all around the house by him self. he build a big shed out back to store mums little runabout car, store patio furniture, bbq, and dry clothes even when raining.

My mum spent years landscaping the garden, making it look how they wanted.

They got a well put in as until recently there was no water scheme.


They built a home for their family and for them selves after we all flew the coup. It is grossly unfair that they should now simply give all that up and move somewhere smaller simply because its a bit bigger than they now need.

We have a broken housing/accommodation & rental system now. lets not make it even more unfair by making good, hardworking people who have worked thier lives to build a home, to give up their homes and into some "granny flat" or other form of lodgings thats less than what they worked hard for.

Rew

MyHome are quoting Daft now?! It really is the end of times....

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/dublin-house-prices-slow-as-climbs-recorded-elsewhere-1.2379875

Cuddlesworth

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Cold hard logic aside, some people have spent their lives working hard to build/purchase their property, pay the mortgage, add improvments and make it their own, their home. Its unfair that a broken system now requires that these people should now settle for something smaller, or something different, something that isnt their "home".

I say this from the perspective of my parents. My dad designed and helped build his own house. He build his own garrage on his own, by himself. He concreted all around the house by him self. he build a big shed out back to store mums little runabout car, store patio furniture, bbq, and dry clothes even when raining.

My mum spent years landscaping the garden, making it look how they wanted.

They got a well put in as until recently there was no water scheme.


They built a home for their family and for them selves after we all flew the coup. It is grossly unfair that they should now simply give all that up and move somewhere smaller simply because its a bit bigger than they now need.

We have a broken housing/accommodation & rental system now. lets not make it even more unfair by making good, hardworking people who have worked thier lives to build a home, to give up their homes and into some "granny flat" or other form of lodgings thats less than what they worked hard for.

That big house will get harder to keep clean as they get older. That yard and garden will become difficult to maintain. At some point you are going to realize that your family home is falling to pieces because your parents are not able to maintain it. Its not a good life. Small knit communities of elderly people work well, but there are few I'm aware of in Dublin and they are being bought by small family's right now which isn't helping.

fret_wimp2

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

That big house will get harder to keep clean as they get older. That yard and garden will become difficult to maintain. At some point you are going to realize that your family home is falling to pieces because your parents are not able to maintain it. Its not a good life. Small knit communities of elderly people work well, but there are few I'm aware of in Dublin and they are being bought by small family's right now which isn't helping.

maybe so, and we will cross that bridge when we come to it, but for now, is their home. If they ever need to move somewhere different it will be for their benefit, safety & comfort, and not because one of their kids cant afford a big enough house.

Most parents in this country give so much to their kids, its selfish & mean to expect them to then give up thier home before they have to leave it for their own reasons.

iguana

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Cold hard logic aside, some people have spent their lives working hard to build/purchase their property, pay the mortgage, add improvments and make it their own, their home. Its unfair that a broken system now requires that these people should now settle for something smaller, or something different, something that isnt their "home".
.........
They built a home for their family and for them selves after we all flew the coup. It is grossly unfair that they should now simply give all that up and move somewhere smaller simply because its a bit bigger than they now need.

Is it really though? If you have more than you need, how could you watch your children struggle and be unable to provide fully for your grandchildren? How could you enjoy your big garden knowing that your 3 year old grandson doesn't have the space to kick a ball? Throughout history people traditionally want their children to have more than they did, so if your adult children are struggling because of something outside of their control, how could you not share your largesse with them?

I love and adore my house but my main motivation for buying it was to give my son a wonderful and secure childhood. If the economic situation in the future is such that he can't provide the same for his children, my grandchildren, I hope I'll put their best interests ahead of me getting to hold on to that which is far in excess of my needs.

(And now I'm having visions of my 32 year old son in 2045 tracking down this post and using it to convince me to give him my house.:pac:)

fret_wimp2

iguana wrote: »

Is it really though?

From my viewpoint, yes, it is really this simple. How much more can people ask of their parents.

If your parents insist beyond any reasoning that they want to move to smaller accommodation and sell/give you the house, well thats a lovely gesture & it makes everything all nice and neat and tidy, but any coercion on the side of a child pressuring their parents to give up their home is just downright selfish.

That said its completely within the bounds of what i expect from Generation Y. "I want", "I deserve" & "Im entitled" seem to be the norms nowdays.
Back in the height of the boom Generation Y were all asking parents to go guarantor on ridiculous mortgage loans. Imagine a grown man asking his parents go bail him out of a 400k mortgage because he was shortsighted!

Now we cant get the money from the banks so the next thing we ask of our parents is to give us their homes.

iguana

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

That said its completely within the bounds of what i expect from Generation Y. "I want", "I deserve" & "Im entitled" seem to be the norms nowdays.
Back in the height of the boom Generation Y were all asking parents to go guarantor on ridiculous mortgage loans. Imagine a grown man asking his parents go bail him out of a 400k mortgage because he was shortsighted!

Now we cant get the money from the banks so the next thing we ask of our parents is to give us their homes.

Who ever said anything about children asking their parents to move for them? I'm talking about parents not doing it off their own back. Living with too much while your own children and grandchildren struggle due to factors outside their control, is just incomprehensible to me and every bit as selfish as you seem to consider your peers.

fret_wimp2

iguana wrote: »

Who ever said anything about children asking their parents to move for them? I'm talking about parents not doing it off their own back. Living with too much while your own children and grandchildren struggle due to factors outside their control, is just incomprehensible to me and every bit as selfish as you seem to consider your peers.

like i said, if parents insist beyond reason that they want to move and sell/give you their bigger house, then everyone is happy.

If however its expected that once kids are old enough and start having families that their aging parents should leave the bigger house, their home, then we have a problem. If this becomes expected & the norm is my gripe, and thats where its heading.

I'm talking about parents not doing it off their own back.

What if they dont offer?

Question & scenario time - You have a family of 5 in a small 2 up 2 down semi D. Your parents have a lovely detatched 5 bedroom place they spent their lives working hard for. They dont offer it to you. Are you going to resent them? Are they now selfish, bad people? Dont answer here, just think about it.

Everyone has their own conscience to answer to hopefully. Mine says that my parents worked long and hard on their home, they deserve to use it to its fullest until they are totally unable to for their own reasons, not because my siblings or I cant get a big enough house in a broken market.

seamus

iguana wrote: »

Is it really though? If you have more than you need, how could you watch your children struggle and be unable to provide fully for your grandchildren?

I guess to a certain extent they're looking at it from the point of view of their own experience. And in general thinking it's not ideal, but it's not a bad situation either and it will get better.

In my case, my wife's parents live in a huge house with a huge garden and we had 2 of us, plus toddler, plus dog, living in a duplex, i.e. no garden. Not for a second did I think about asking them to move out (or asking to move in with them), but putting the shoe on the other foot, they probably thought it was fine - their grandchild was in their house plenty, we took her out every day. Even if we had a second there, we'd manage.
Sure we were short on space, but weren't suffering. And there was the potential to improve our situation in the medium-term.

40 years previous, they lived in a one-bed flat in London with their first born for nearly four years, with no overall harm having come to anybody.

Of course, if we were in a one-bed and struggling to meet the rent and a second child on the way, they would no doubt present more options to us.

But I can certainly see how grandparents wouldn't automatically be stepping in to trade down with their children, when they have the fore/hindsight to recognise that provided nobody is actually suffering, there's nothing wrong with raising a family in a small property.

Sala

Rew wrote: »

The end of the world must be near, estate agents are ring me to follow up on viewings or to see if they have other stock id be interested in :eek:

Me and you must have been at the same viewings the weekend so, the voicemails are coming in for me now too 😂 . Only for the rubbish ones though- the one I liked is being bid up already 😢

Sala

iguana wrote: »

I know of few elderly people who live alone in a big house and in each case at least one of their adult children is struggling massively, living in tiny unsuitable accommodation with young children. It baffles me that they will keep on living in a house they use a fraction of and leave their children and grandchildren without. I can understand a person not wanting to downsize from their home for the greater good of society but in order to help their own children and grandchildren? That I don't get.

I actually met someone who did a swap- the couple and kids moved into the bigger less modern house and the grandmother moved into their smaller but more modern and closer to amenities house. Seems like a great idea unless the older person is moving somewhere equally unsuitable

The_Conductor

Ignoring the swap options- how about making it financially viable for older people to move from large unsuitable properties- into smaller, more suitable, better located properties? I.e. look at how incentives might be employed to persuade the elderly to vacate larger less suitable properties- thus freeing up family homes- which we're not building- for families?

Make the incentives such that to move its a no brainer.......

The HSE nursing home scheme could very well be incorporated into the equation (the Fair Deal Scheme)- and could indeed help keep the elderly for longer in the community- than might otherwise be the case.

Sala

Older people should t be forced or guilted - if we want older people to downsize they have to be incentivized and there's very little out there that would entice them imo

Edit- my aunt wanted an apartment in one of those services communities, they are so hard to get in Dublin. We certainly need more

Jaketherake

My parents offered my sister a swap. My sisters 2 bed end of terrace for my parents 3 bed detached.

She wouldnt dream of taking it. And im proud of them for offering and of her for not taking it.

They are happy where they are. They have lived there for 45 years and their friends live there too. Their lives are around where they live and they should not be expected to move away form their friends and life.

My sister realizes this and told them to stay put and enjoy what they have worked for. She has years ahead of her to build her life.

Shedite27

A few awkward conversations if you've more than one family in your offspring. My parents would have the choice of three married 30-something children that would love their detached family home.

jay0109

Rew wrote: »

MyHome are quoting Daft now?! It really is the end of times....

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/dublin-house-prices-slow-as-climbs-recorded-elsewhere-1.2379875

I'm near certain when I read that earlier today online, the headline contained the word 'slump' when referring to asking prices in Dublin.
I reckon some Intern is looking for a new job since lunch time!!!

newacc2015

The_Conductor wrote: »

Ignoring the swap options- how about making it financially viable for older people to move from large unsuitable properties- into smaller, more suitable, better located properties? I.e. look at how incentives might be employed to persuade the elderly to vacate larger less suitable properties- thus freeing up family homes- which we're not building- for families?

Make the incentives such that to move its a no brainer.......

The HSE nursing home scheme could very well be incorporated into the equation (the Fair Deal Scheme)- and could indeed help keep the elderly for longer in the community- than might otherwise be the case.

A proper property tax would solve this. If we were closer to the American rates of around 2% for property tax. I imagine a lot of people would move out of their large homes into smaller properties. I imagine it would stop the likes of the massive derelict Georgian houses being left ideal in Dublin City. Imagine paying 1% on your Georgian housing, that you have sitting their ideal? If the tax isnt paid getting a lien against it and have it auctioned off.

I personally dont think we should give anymore handouts to OAPs who were almost completely sheltered from the Recession. Who are already given a ton of tax breaks already. Plus have an asset they paid a fraction of its current value. A half decent LPT would have a lot of them downsizing.

fret_wimp2

newacc2015 wrote: »

A proper property tax would solve this. If we were closer to the American rates of around 2% for property tax. I imagine a lot of people would move out of their large homes into smaller properties. I imagine it would stop the likes of the massive derelict Georgian houses being left ideal in Dublin City. Imagine paying 1% on your Georgian housing, that you have sitting their ideal? If the tax isnt paid getting a lien against it and have it auctioned off.

I personally dont think we should give anymore handouts to OAPs who were almost completely sheltered from the Recession. Who are already given a ton of tax breaks already. Plus have an asset they paid a fraction of its current value. A half decent LPT would have a lot of them downsizing.

Yea, f**k those guys, they may have worked hard all their life, managed through mass unemployment in the 80's, maybe even through a war if they are old enough, managed through awful sectarian troubles over the north, raised kids and paid their dues, but their housing problems were different from mine, and they are old now anyway so let's tax the **** out of the and give out about their pension, that most have contributed to all their lives.

F**k them old people, am I right?

El_Dangeroso

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Yea, f**k those guys, they may have worked hard all their life, managed through mass unemployment in the 80's, maybe even through a war if they are old enough, managed through awful sectarian troubles over the north, raised kids and paid their dues, but their housing problems were different from mine, and they are old now anyway so let's tax the **** out of the and give out about their pension, that most have contributed to all their lives.

F**k them old people, am I right?

Oh please, you'd have to be over 85 to remember any war in this country. You are talking about one of the most ringfenced sector of the social welfare state. They get medical cards, free travel and free telephone lines and reduced electricity charges even if they have millions in the bank.

And no one is suggesting taxing them in particular, just an impactful property tax accross the board that would lead people to live in more appropriate accommodation.

It works like this in other countries, why is Ireland any different?

Villa05

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Yea, f**k those guys, they may have worked hard all their life, managed through mass unemployment in the 80's, maybe even through a war if they are old enough, managed through awful sectarian troubles over the north, raised kids and paid their dues, but their housing problems were different from mine, and they are old now anyway so let's tax the **** out of the and give out about their pension, that most have contributed to all their lives.

F**k them old people, am I right?

There are solutions that can benefit both OAP circumstances and increase supply.

fret_wimp2

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Oh please, you'd have to be over 85 to remember any war in this country. You are talking about one of the most ringfenced sector of the social welfare state. They get medical cards, free travel and free telephone lines and reduced electricity charges even if they have millions in the bank.

And no one is suggesting taxing them in particular, just an impactful property tax accross the board that would lead people to live in more appropriate accommodation.

It works like this in other countries, why is Ireland any different?

To use an example I am familiar with, My grandmother doesn't have millions In the bank. She raised 4 kids, and ran a farm, even put a number of them through college after her husband died when the eldest kid was 10.

And her situation is for the most part similar to pretty much all oap's in rural Ireland. Again, referring back to my home place that story is pretty standard.

These oap's with millions, not sure where you fine them all, but I'd wager they are the minority.

And besides, they paid they way their whole lives, why milk them until they are dead?
They done their duty, they should have free health are. It shouldn't be thrown in their faces.

But sorry, I forgot, they had it easy, their houses were cheap, so let's just all jump on your "f**k the oap's cause they had it easy" bandwagon.

Bob24

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Yea, f**k those guys, they may have worked hard all their life, managed through mass unemployment in the 80's, maybe even through a war if they are old enough, managed through awful sectarian troubles over the north, raised kids and paid their dues, but their housing problems were different from mine, and they are old now anyway so let's tax the **** out of the and give out about their pension, that most have contributed to all their lives.

F**k them old people, am I right?

Are you telling us that the numerous countries which have significantly higher property tax than Ireland are all disrespectful of the old?

Where do they spend that extra property tax (not only collected from the old as opposed to what you were saying)? Mostly on public services (such as hospitals) and welfare payments. Who benefits public services and social welfare the most: usually the young and the old.

El_Dangeroso

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

To use an example I am familiar with, My grandmother doesn't have millions In the bank. She raised 4 kids, and ran a farm, even put a number of them through college after her husband died when the eldest kid was 10.

And her situation is for the most part similar to pretty much all oap's in rural Ireland. Again, referring back to my home place that story is pretty standard.

These oap's with millions, not sure where you fine them all, but I'd wager they are the minority.

And besides, they paid they way their whole lives, why milk them until they are dead?
They done their duty, they should have free health are. It shouldn't be thrown in their faces.

But sorry, I forgot, they had it easy, their houses were cheap, so let's just all jump on your "f**k the oap's cause they had it easy" bandwagon.

So. Much. Hyberbole.

Yes, we're all saying that OAPs should be taken out and flogged in the street. Clearly that is point being made here. /s

TBH a lot of vunerable sections of society have had cuts imposed upon them by austerity, except the benefits of OAPs, they have been almost completely untouched (because they are a very active voting demographic). A lot have a need for assistence, which I don't begrudge, but many don't.

robp

newacc2015 wrote: »

A proper property tax would solve this. If we were closer to the American rates of around 2% for property tax. I imagine a lot of people would move out of their large homes into smaller properties. I imagine it would stop the likes of the massive derelict Georgian houses being left ideal in Dublin City. Imagine paying 1% on your Georgian housing, that you have sitting their ideal? If the tax isnt paid getting a lien against it and have it auctioned off.

I personally dont think we should give anymore handouts to OAPs who were almost completely sheltered from the Recession. Who are already given a ton of tax breaks already. Plus have an asset they paid a fraction of its current value. A half decent LPT would have a lot of them downsizing.

A 2% property tax annually would have many low earners pay less income tax than property tax. It would also crucify landlords. I presume you would match it with a corresponding cut in income tax/USC?

Viager is normal enough in France...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33326787

Though not quite able to 'free up' houses, at least it's a step towards normalising the discussion regarding the elderly and their homes.

The_Conductor

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Yea, f**k those guys, they may have worked hard all their life, managed through mass unemployment in the 80's, maybe even through a war if they are old enough, managed through awful sectarian troubles over the north, raised kids and paid their dues, but their housing problems were different from mine, and they are old now anyway so let's tax the **** out of the and give out about their pension, that most have contributed to all their lives.

F**k them old people, am I right?

Fred- many of us in our 40s- lived through most of what you're listing- never mind OAPs........ I've had guns pointed at me by the British Army while delivering plants up North, I have relatives who died up north- including the Monaghan bombings, I have young children who at times their childcare came to more than my net salary (however, I paid it- to keep my job- in the expectation that down the road, the bills would be less onerous). I'm only in my 40s- and I genuinely feel that I have paid my dues to this country- its not just the elderly who have given their all for Ireland.

We need solutions to problems- one of which has to be a recognition that many elderly people are not in positions to maintain larger properties- and would have a vastly higher standard of living were they given the opportunity to move to more appropriate accommodation.

The American approach- would be to sell the larger property- and buy a lifetime lease on a property in a retirement settlement (as my grandparents did)- and live happily there for the remainder of their lives (over 40 years in the case of my grandmother- much to the chagrin of the facility operators- but hey, thats a lifetime lease).

We need to build retirement settlements, in locations that people want to retire to- which will include places like inner city Dublin, the suburbs- and our regional cities- esp. Galway and Cork. We also need to work on the Irish psyche regarding property- we really are our own worse enemies in this respect- and please don't regurgitate our history- how we were abused by Absentee Landlords in the 19th Century etc- we need to get over this.

We also need to look at how these type settlements work in other countries- and try to import their best features here (they have downsides too- such as I encountered in the US).

An elderly parent should not feel the need to free up their property for a child- however, selling it would be an entirely different proposition (or indeed letting it out longterm for the rental income).

We need to seriously explore how we manage our pre-existing housing stock- and how we plan for the future- at the moment- our firefighting patently isn't working.