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Property Market 2015
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Finally got back on the property ladder this month, for the first time in 3 years. I have been renting up til now, saving a deposit and looking for the right house.
I thought I had a great budget, in fact it wasnt that good. Alot of houses I looked at needed alot of work or would be arkward to get to work, all the usual stuff.
Also trying to find a house that was future proof, so that we can grow as a family without having to move was tricky.
We found the house in August, actually lucky enough to see it the day it came on the market. Put an offer in. Abit of too and fro, but it was excepted within 2 weeks.
It has taken up to now to get it sorted. The house was vacant as the owners were moving to another property, all bills etc were up to date, all paperwork was in order. My solicitor I have always worked with so I know it wasnt him holding things up, but he couldnt tell me why it took so long.
Anyway we are moving in over the next couple of weeks and I am so glad thats over, wont want to move again, well at least for a very long time...
Congratulations, enjoy your new home.0 -
The_Conductor wrote: »Big time.
There are loads of singletons and/or couples- living in family homes- some of whom have children who have gone to college or moved elsewhere- however, you have the parents hanging onto often larger family homes- which are wholly unsuitable to their now needs- however, they will not move- pretty much regardless of what you do.
There needs to be a root and branch reform of how we tax family homes- to try to encourage people to move to more suitable property later in life- after their families have outgrown particular properties. Holding onto properties- in the belief that children will come back and live in them when they inherit them- is clearly misguided (as evidenced by the large proportion of executor sales on the market).
However- this is just one plank in the equation that needs to be dealt with.
Unfortunately, older people can have a perhaps unreasonable attachment to the family home. Despite the fact that the house was totally unsuited to a couple of their age, it took an awful lot of persuading to get my parents to move to a disabled friendly apartment literally down the road from their old house in a small town - and it was only a wonderful view that swung it. If it wasn't for that, my mum would never have agreed. And I don't think a high property tax would have made any difference.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30620
Riverireland wrote: »I agree with regard to smaller houses for single people and retirees but there seems to be no planning for this. Eastbourne in the uk springs to mind, full of old folks. If older people are going to move out of an area they have lived in all Thor lives they need to know they are going somewhere safe.
Safe- with access to facilities and amenities suitable to their stages in life, proper thought made about the communities they are to become part of.
My Gran lived in a retirement home in Doylestown in Pennsylvania in the US- which was specifically designed to meet the needs of the elderly- in every sense- with daily excursions, a swimming pool, an on-call medical team etc etc You bought a lease for lifetime residence of the unit- which you funded in part from selling your PPR. You pay fees towards whichever services you wish to use- aka my Nan used come back to Ireland a few months every summer- this was all factored into the equation. She lived there for almost 40 years- which was her right with the lifetime lease she bought- others were not so fortunate- and had far shorter tenures.
We do have a few planned retirement homes- some of which feature sheltered accommodation in settled communities (I know there is one on the outskirts of Inchicore- and a few more down the country)- but they are the exception rather than the norm- we need them to become more prevalent.
People's mindsets- are the other issue. We are already scratching this- with our fair deal access to nursing homes- whereby the cost is deducted from people's estates- however, I believe this is just a stepping stone on the route to where we need to go.0 -
I think older people have a big attachment to their houses, mainly because they have lived their lives there.
Their children come home to visit in that house. Thier neighbours, friends and their support network live next door and a few doors away.
Older people cant uproot and move away and make new friends and networks as easily as young people. Thats why, during their latter years, they want to stay in the house they sweated blood and tears for0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30620
Unfortunately, older people can have a perhaps unreasonable attachment to the family home. Despite the fact that the house was totally unsuited to a couple of their age, it took an awful lot of persuading to get my parents to move to a disabled friendly apartment literally down the road from their old house in a small town - and it was only a wonderful view that swung it. If it wasn't for that, my mum would never have agreed. And I don't think a high property tax would have made any difference.
I agree 100%
Getting over people's mindsets- is going to be far harder than almost anything else.
The Fair Deal nursing home scheme- is a good start- and accessing it- does tend to focus people's minds- they could have made better use of the capital in their homes- had they not sat on them...........
Ultimately- there has to be some sort of a carrot dangled to try to make people avail of the scheme- you are right- the stick of property tax- is not a sufficient factor for a vast majority of older people, to moving.........0 -
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Unfortunately, older people can have a perhaps unreasonable attachment to the family home. Despite the fact that the house was totally unsuited to a couple of their age, it took an awful lot of persuading to get my parents to move to a disabled friendly apartment literally down the road from their old house in a small town - and it was only a wonderful view that swung it. If it wasn't for that, my mum would never have agreed. And I don't think a high property tax would have made any difference.
(and to be honest, they bought and paid for the house, so why should they be expected to move out to make way for someone else - it was only the practicalities of living in this house with their infirmities that made it necessary. If however, the taxpayer has bought and paid for the house to provide decent accommodation for your now grown up family, and you no longer need all that space, and another family does, that's a tough - just as poor health forced a tough decision on my parents)0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30620
(and to be honest, they bought and paid for the house, so why should they be expected to move out to make way for someone else - it was only the practicalities of living in this house with their infirmities that made it necessary. If however, the taxpayer has bought and paid for the house to provide decent accommodation for your now grown up family, and you no longer need all that space, and another family does, that's a tough - just as poor health forced a tough decision on my parents)
Even if someone through sweat and tears managed to pay the mortgage on a mansion- I think there should be some inducement made available- to encourage them to trade down to accommodation more suitable for their needs. By all means- put conditions on accessing any inducement into the terms of the scheme- such as it having had to be your PPR for a period of a minimum of x amount of time etc. We do need something to encourage the free-up of family homes though- esp. as we're not building any in locations where people want to live.0 -
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Riverireland wrote: »I agree with regard to smaller houses for single people and retirees but there seems to be no planning for this. Eastbourne in the uk springs to mind, full of old folks. If older people are going to move out of an area they have lived in all Thor lives they need to know they are going somewhere safe.
The biggest thing i find is that they just dont want the hassle of moving somewhere new.
Where we bought, houses are big and most have been extended, ours is 115 sq meters and we're adding about 20 to that. There were 2 kids in it growing up but they are in their 40s now so likely havent been living there for a long time.
The husband died so it was just the mother left there for the last 10 years or so, the house was immaculate, i'd would say mainly because she probably didnt go near most of it.
I'll be an empty nester, i'm dying in that bloody house :pac:
One house we looked at was 200 sq meters, there is a family moving into it, but once those kids leave that is a massive house to maintain for older/retired people.0 -
The reality of most but not all people within society in Dublin
1) Couples tend to meet one another in the late 20's,
2) Spend the next 5-6 years enjoying their relationship, holidays etc and paying rent
3) Early to mid 30's, they decide to get serious and start saving for the long term (marriage, house etc)
4) Women (not all) would like to have a family home and marriage before children, so 10-20% of a house deposit is anything from 35-70K plus marriage costs, hence they spend a lot of the 30's saving, saving and saving hence why people are holding off having children until later in life
This 20% curb is really hitting all parts of society especially people who bought in the bubble and are being affected now0 -
Jaketherake wrote: »I think older people have a big attachment to their houses, mainly because they have lived their lives there.
Their children come home to visit in that house. Thier neighbours, friends and their support network live next door and a few doors away.
Older people cant uproot and move away and make new friends and networks as easily as young people. Thats why, during their latter years, they want to stay in the house they sweated blood and tears for
And they are entitled to do that. Sometimes though it might be nice for them to at least have another option if they would like that option. It should always be a choice.0 -
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The_Conductor wrote: »Even if someone through sweat and tears managed to pay the mortgage on a mansion- I think there should be some inducement made available- to encourage them to trade down to accommodation more suitable for their needs. By all means- put conditions on accessing any inducement into the terms of the scheme- such as it having had to be your PPR for a period of a minimum of x amount of time etc. We do need something to encourage the free-up of family homes though- esp. as we're not building any in locations where people want to live.
Correct. The inducement is the price someone is willing to pay them to give up what they have worked at achieving, so that they can have it.
So if you offer them the right price for their house, then I think most of them would sell to you. Problem is people think that the price they want to offer is enough to buy and that the pensioners should be forced to sell to them.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30620
Jaketherake wrote: »Correct. The inducement is the price someone is willing to pay them to give up what they have worked at achieving, so that they can have it.
So if you offer them the right price for their house, then I think most of them would sell to you. Problem is people think that the price they want to offer is enough to buy and that the pensioners should be forced to sell to them.
The issue is not the price- and a vast majority of retirees will not sell to you at open market selling price- wholly irrespective of what any particular prospective purchaser might imagine he or she should offer. The issue is sentiment- people do not want to leave the home they have lived in, the home they have brought up children in, often the home in which they have memories of loved ones who may no longer be there any longer. The issue is an irrational emotional attachment to the property- in much the same way that some prospective buyers get an irrational attachment to a particular house when they are house hunting.
Coupled with this irrational attachment- is a complete and utter lack of any future planning by 99.9% of people- who imagine that their home is their forever home- regardless of how unsuitable it may become- or their inability to keep the property in good repair because of their age etc.
Add into the equation- the lack of any meaningful debate on care for the elderly- and all of a sudden it becomes easier to understand why people don't budge- they don't feel that they have viable alternates elsewhere- and by and large- we aren't supplying them with viable alternates.
Its not a random stranger wandering in off the street with a lowball offer who thinks they should have the house- thats not the issue at all..........0 -
DulchieLaois wrote: »The reality of most but not all people within society in Dublin
1) Couples tend to meet one another in the late 20's,
2) Spend the next 5-6 years enjoying their relationship, holidays etc and paying rent
3) Early to mid 30's, they decide to get serious and start saving for the long term (marriage, house etc)
4) Women (not all) would like to have a family home and marriage before children, so 10-20% of a house deposit is anything from 35-70K plus marriage costs, hence they spend a lot of the 30's saving, saving and saving hence why people are holding off having children until later in life
This 20% curb is really hitting all parts of society especially people who bought in the bubble and are being affected now
Which would you prefer: to have runaway prices and a 10% or less deposit or stable prices and a 20% deposit? With the former, you end up in hock up to the eyeballs, paying 5 x joint earnings to live in Drogheda and commuting 2 hours to work, as per 2006. With the latter, you have to budget and save, but get a property for maybe 2.5 or 3 x earnings. I say well done to the central bank for refusing to be bullied into changing tack. (Incidentally, the late 1990's and 2000's were an aberration, before then ordinary people always scrimped and saved the deposit, singleton buyers were practically unheard of, and lots of the skilled working class in steady jobs never even thought of buying their own home, instead renting, and eventually, if lucky, getting a council house. In fact even to be considered for a mortgage, you had to prove that you had been saving and were therefore a good risk. And once you bought the house, you were delighted if you got handmedown furniture from family and friends to help furnish it.).0 -
The_Conductor wrote: »The issue is not the price- and a vast majority of retirees will not sell to you at open market selling price- wholly irrespective of what any particular prospective purchaser might imagine he or she should offer. The issue is sentiment- people do not want to leave the home they have lived in, the home they have brought up children in, often the home in which they have memories of loved ones who may no longer be there any longer. The issue is an irrational emotional attachment to the property- in much the same way that some prospective buyers get an irrational attachment to a particular house when they are house hunting.
Coupled with this irrational attachment- is a complete and utter lack of any future planning by 99.9% of people- who imagine that their home is their forever home- regardless of how unsuitable it may become- or their inability to keep the property in good repair because of their age etc.
Add into the equation- the lack of any meaningful debate on care for the elderly- and all of a sudden it becomes easier to understand why people don't budge- they don't feel that they have viable alternates elsewhere- and by and large- we aren't supplying them with viable alternates.
Its not a random stranger wandering in off the street with a lowball offer who thinks they should have the house- thats not the issue at all..........
Exactly. If something is worth x to me, im hardly going to sell it for x - y that its worth to someone else. Therefore they cant afford it. Now if they want to pay x, then its theirs.
The elderly are better off and want to stay in their own homes. They have built a life there. Unless you can replace that life that they have built for themselves you are never going to get them to want to move.
Then we are back to the stick, to kick the elderly out of the homes they have bought and nurtured, so someone else can have it instead.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30620
Its not a monetary value though- thats the point I've been dancing around- its an emotional attachment- pure and simple. When you are emotionally involved in something- logic goes out the window.
A lot of older people imagine that they are holding onto the family home for one (or more) of their children. This is rarely attainable- esp. in Dublin- where inheritance taxes make holding onto the family home an unachievable aim for beneficiaries of wills- the reason there are so many executor sales- is to pay the tax man.
If someone could come up with an attractive package- allowing elderly people release and utilise the equity in their properties- without triggering onerous liabilities (ignore the liabilities on their children)- and spelt it out in a clear and helpful manner- just how the family home could be used to give the elderly happiness in their twilight years- but with feasible options- proper retirement villages, properly catered for with facilities and amenities- and care for people as and when they need it- perhaps this would be a better solution.
At the moment- the government are getting the homes of the elderly in any event- through either triggering onerous inheritance taxes- or through the likes of the Nursing Home Fair Deal Scheme- where on the death of the individual concerned, the liability for the cost of nursing home care is triggered.
Wouldn't it be better all round- if services and indeed the tax system- favoured these people- and assisted them in leveraging their assets to enjoy in their lifetimes to the greatest extent possible- rather than handing it over to the taxman when they pass on.
Freeing up family homes for families- is one side of the equation- allowing the elderly a far better existence in their twilight years- alongside resources and amenities- as and when they want them- is another.
The only winner at the moment is the taxman- and the lack of succession planning in Ireland is mind boggling. I'm only in my 40s and I'm already planning for my children's future- and my retirement years- as when I get to retire- I'm sure the old age pension won't kick in until possibly age 70- its due to go up again in 2018 to 68- its not a stretch to see it going up another 2-3 years over the next 20 years.
Today's elderly- have significant unencumbered assets- and a state pension that kicks in at, what we will in future view as, an artificially low age. We need to look at society in general- and do some macro level planning to try and create a place we want to live in in 20-30 years time- a place we want to be proud to hand over to our children and our children's children.
Society is in a mess- no-one is suggesting kicking anyone out of their homes- my suggestion was to spell out the consequences of holding onto an asset that can not be feasibly handed over to descendents- while at the same time- creating the structures to allow people enjoy the wealth locked up in the asset now, in their lifetimes, and if there is something to leave to descendents in their will- so be it- but first and foremost- to live as much and full a life as possible- sitting alone in a kitchen wondering how to pay a gas bill for a large and creaking house- is not living.0 -
The_Conductor wrote: »Its not a monetary value though- thats the point I've been dancing around- its an emotional attachment- pure and simple. When you are emotionally involved in something- logic goes out the window.
A lot of older people imagine that they are holding onto the family home for one (or more) of their children. This is rarely attainable- esp. in Dublin- where inheritance taxes make holding onto the family home an unachievable aim for beneficiaries of wills- the reason there are so many executor sales- is to pay the tax man.
If someone could come up with an attractive package- allowing elderly people release and utilise the equity in their properties- without triggering onerous liabilities (ignore the liabilities on their children)- and spelt it out in a clear and helpful manner- just how the family home could be used to give the elderly happiness in their twilight years- but with feasible options- proper retirement villages, properly catered for with facilities and amenities- and care for people as and when they need it- perhaps this would be a better solution.
At the moment- the government are getting the homes of the elderly in any event- through either triggering onerous inheritance taxes- or through the likes of the Nursing Home Fair Deal Scheme- where on the death of the individual concerned, the liability for the cost of nursing home care is triggered.
Wouldn't it be better all round- if services and indeed the tax system- favoured these people- and assisted them in leveraging their assets to enjoy in their lifetimes to the greatest extent possible- rather than handing it over to the taxman when they pass on.
Freeing up family homes for families- is one side of the equation- allowing the elderly a far better existence in their twilight years- alongside resources and amenities- as and when they want them- is another.
The only winner at the moment is the taxman- and the lack of succession planning in Ireland is mind boggling. I'm only in my 40s and I'm already planning for my children's future- and my retirement years- as when I get to retire- I'm sure the old age pension won't kick in until possibly age 70- its due to go up again in 2018 to 68- its not a stretch to see it going up another 2-3 years over the next 20 years.
Today's elderly- have significant unencumbered assets- and a state pension that kicks in at, what we will in future view as, an artificially low age. We need to look at society in general- and do some macro level planning to try and create a place we want to live in in 20-30 years time- a place we want to be proud to hand over to our children and our children's children.
Society is in a mess- no-one is suggesting kicking anyone out of their homes- my suggestion was to spell out the consequences of holding onto an asset that can not be feasibly handed over to descendents- while at the same time- creating the structures to allow people enjoy the wealth locked up in the asset now, in their lifetimes, and if there is something to leave to descendents in their will- so be it- but first and foremost- to live as much and full a life as possible- sitting alone in a kitchen wondering how to pay a gas bill for a large and creaking house- is not living.
I agree with this. Unfortunately our politicians don't seem to be capable of forward planning with regard to housing. They would probably suggest a modular housing solution for pensioners given the current thinking. We are always hearing about rural depopulation, there must be plenty of towns and villages that could be earmarked for older residents going forward, if of course older residents wanted that.0 -
The_Conductor wrote: »The Fair Deal nursing home scheme- is a good start- and accessing it- does tend to focus people's minds- they could have made better use of the capital in their homes- had they not sat on them...........
You keep referencing this but in my experience the fair deal scheme has left a large number of property's sitting empty. I know of quite a few in Dublin which are empty 99% of the year.
They give up 80% of their income and 7.5% the value of their assets per year.
The family home is only liable for three years and is defer-able to the estate, so only 22.5% of the valuation upon entry is payable and usually after their death. But if that person sells the house, their cash assets become liable for the 7.5% yearly take without a option to defer.0 -
The_Conductor wrote: »We need to look at society in general- and do some macro level planning to try and create a place we want to live in in 20-30 years time- a place we want to be proud to hand over to our children and our children's children.
Couldn't agree more. We are not far off 100 years as a free state, I think now is the perfect time to overhaul our out-dated constitution & laws and have some genuine debate on where are country is going and how we want it to be run.
Protecting the vulnerable in our society should definitely be a starting point.
Housing, Crime etc. are all currently short-term election proposals with as you say no 'macro' planning.0 -
how long can irish banks persist with their totally out of whack interest rates ?
surely a drop in interest rates will drive prices higher ?0 -
They'll drop them but it won't be enough to push up prices surely?great_at_golf wrote:how long can irish banks persist with their totally out of whack interest rates ?
surely a drop in interest rates will drive prices higher ?0 -
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They'll drop them but it won't be enough to push up prices surely?
i cant see why it wouldnt drive up prices , irish people will always buy property if we can , the biggest housing crash this side of japan didnt dent our thirst for bricks and mortar
the rates they are charging are a joke , i was in spain for a week in early september , banco santander were offering loans @ 3.5% for sums as low as 15 k , if i tried to get a loan of that size off a bank here , you would be talking over 7%0 -
great_at_golf wrote: »i cant see why it wouldnt drive up prices , irish people will always buy property if we can , the biggest housing crash this side of japan didnt dent our thirst for bricks and mortar
the rates they are charging are a joke , i was in spain for a week in early september , banco santander were offering loans @ 3.5% for sums as low as 15 k , if i tried to get a loan of that size off a bank here , you would be talking over 7%
I don't see that the interest rates charged on mortgages will drive up prices for the mortgageable market as availability to credit is being limited by LTV and LTI and the cash buying percentage of the market seems to be dropping.0 -
Yeah loans are a total joke in this country. Even the credit union would have a high rate compared to other euro countries.0
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great_at_golf wrote: »how long can irish banks persist with their totally out of whack interest rates ?
surely a drop in interest rates will drive prices higher ?
As long as they subsidise the 100k+ mortgages not being paid.0 -
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great_at_golf wrote: »i cant see why it wouldnt drive up prices , irish people will always buy property if we can , the biggest housing crash this side of japan didnt dent our thirst for bricks and mortar
the rates they are charging are a joke , i was in spain for a week in early september , banco santander were offering loans @ 3.5% for sums as low as 15 k , if i tried to get a loan of that size off a bank here , you would be talking over 7%
You are aware we have the highest level of mortgage arrears in the world?0 -
great_at_golf wrote: »the rates they are charging are a joke , i was in spain for a week in early september , banco santander were offering loans @ 3.5% for sums as low as 15 k , if i tried to get a loan of that size off a bank here , you would be talking over 7%
But in Spain/Germany etc if you go into arrears it's much easier for the bank to repossess. So as they don't have to cover bad loans, they can pass on the savings to customers.
With the EU, there's nothing stopping Spanish/German banks offering mortgages to Irish people, but they're afraid of Ireland's strict default rules.0 -
New CSO figures: Prices up 1.3% in September, 8.9% for the year (down from 9.5% last month);
http://cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/rppi/residentialpropertypriceindexseptember2015/0 -
brownbeard wrote: »New CSO figures: Prices up 1.3% in September, 8.9% for the year (down from 9.5% last month);
http://cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/rppi/residentialpropertypriceindexseptember2015/
And that end of year YoY price increase looks even more assured.
Not such a hot month for apartments though.0 -
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Does any of you guys on here except to see the banks move on repossessions ?0
This discussion has been closed.
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