Medical rotations in Ireland for North Americans..with a small complication

pug_in_tophat

Hello!

I am interested in doing a medical rotation for 1-2 months anywhere in Ireland. US schools are pretty amenable to this but I noticed that my program, called Doctor of Osteopathy (Which is allopathic medicine + an osteopathic module), is not approved by the Irish Medical Council for practice. It makes it sound super sketchy but osteopaths in the USA are not the same as in Europe. They can perform surgery of all varieties, they get paid the same as their MD counterparts, go into any specialty, prescribe any drug and none of their privileges are limited. They do the same residency programs and write the USMLE. They simply have additional osteopathic training. The difference in degree name is a purely historical distinction and it's a little easier to gain admission to these programs for premeds. The UK, Australia and Canada allow DOs full practice rights in line with those who have an MBBS/MD/MBChB.

So -- would it be likely that I'd be allowed to do an elective in the same way an MD student might be allowed to do one? I'm not trying to practice medicine in Ireland, simply rotate in the hospital to gain more experience as a student.

Thanks, and if anyone has any questions about American or Canadian healthcare I'd be happy to help you out.

AndrewJD

pug_in_tophat wrote: »

Hello!

I am interested in doing a medical rotation for 1-2 months anywhere in Ireland. US schools are pretty amenable to this but I noticed that my program, called Doctor of Osteopathy (Which is allopathic medicine + an osteopathic module), is not approved by the Irish Medical Council for practice. It makes it sound super sketchy but osteopaths in the USA are not the same as in Europe. They can perform surgery of all varieties, they get paid the same as their MD counterparts, go into any specialty, prescribe any drug and none of their privileges are limited. They do the same residency programs and write the USMLE. They simply have additional osteopathic training. The difference in degree name is a purely historical distinction and it's a little easier to gain admission to these programs for premeds. The UK, Australia and Canada allow DOs full practice rights in line with those who have an MBBS/MD/MBChB.

So -- would it be likely that I'd be allowed to do an elective in the same way an MD student might be allowed to do one? I'm not trying to practice medicine in Ireland, simply rotate in the hospital to gain more experience as a student.

Thanks, and if anyone has any questions about American or Canadian healthcare I'd be happy to help you out.

Have you applied for electives and been told no? I was familiar with all the above, and bearing in mind a lot of consultants have trained in the US they would also likely be aware of it. Electives in Ireland aren't hard to get, I don't think you'd have trouble finding one of the main Dublin teaching hospitals who wouldn't care.

pug_in_tophat

I have not been told no. Just trying to gauge how my D.O. degree might be viewed there before I investigate further. Thanks for the reply!

locum-motion

pug_in_tophat wrote: »

... Doctor of Osteopathy (Which is allopathic medicine + an osteopathic module)...

You do realise, don't you, that "allopathic medicine" does not exist?

"Allopathic medicine" is a term invented by the quacks (specifically, the quack-in-chief of homoeopathy, Samuel Hahnemann) that they use to describe that which the rest of us simply call "medicine".

Also, the naiveté of the American medical system in allowing 'Osteopaths' to be considered doctors is simply shocking to the rest of us!

Vorsprung

locum-motion wrote: »

You do realise, don't you, that "allopathic medicine" does not exist?

"Allopathic medicine" is a term invented by the quacks (specifically, the quack-in-chief of homoeopathy, Samuel Hahnemann) that they use to describe that which the rest of us simply call "medicine".

Also, the naiveté of the American medical system in allowing 'Osteopaths' to be considered doctors is simply shocking to the rest of us!

MOD NOTE

Leave it out LM, this isn't the topic of the thread. Can we please restrict our replies to helpful responses?

OP, what kind of rotations were you hoping to do?

usersame

Approach hospitals individually via email, if you let me know what specialty you're interested in I could suggest the most suitable hospitals.

Ireland doesn't have DOs and people are going to be pretty ignorant which we've already seen above.

If there's hassle with the DO thing, just request a hands off observership, which to be honest will be the same as an elective as we're very hands off at undergrad level compared to the states, lots of clinical skills and bedside teaching but little to no procedures or formulating notes.

Here's a link for St. Vincent's:

http://www.stvincents.ie/departments/Human_Resources_Department/Medical_Electives.html

pug_in_tophat

I am interested in A&E, ICU, and what we call family medicine here, I believe it is General Practice over there?

I am not picky about the location. I love big cities but I think it'd be neat to see how things are done in really rural places like Sligo/Donegal or something.

When the time comes I'll definitely email places. A list of hospitals that I would have a higher chance to get something would be amazing, thanks.

usersame

pug_in_tophat wrote: »

I am interested in A&E, ICU, and what we call family medicine here, I believe it is General Practice over there?

I am not picky about the location. I love big cities but I think it'd be neat to see how things are done in really rural places like Sligo/Donegal or something.

When the time comes I'll definitely email places. A list of hospitals that I would have a higher chance to get something would be amazing, thanks.

Sligo actually has a very good ER, good reputation for teaching, very nice place in the summer time. I'm not sure how many beds they have in their ICU.

Mater has a super high tech icu. Beaumont has a large neuro icu. CUH is Ireland's only level 1 trauma centre.

An anaesthetics elective might be what you're looking for, they mange ICU here, not pulmonologists or nephrologists like in the states. If you do a few call shifts (night float) with the ICU reg on call you'll get some great experience.

locum-motion

Vorsprung wrote: »

MOD NOTE

Leave it out LM, this isn't the topic of the thread. Can we please restrict our replies to helpful responses?..

Sorry. I thought I was reading the Health Sciences Education Forum.

Vorsprung wrote: »

OP, what kind of rotations were you hoping to do?

Given the following (from the OP):

pug_in_tophat wrote: »

...(Which is allopathic medicine + an osteopathic module), is not approved by the Irish Medical Council for practice...

I'm not sure which rotations the OP would be allowed do for his/her "allopathic" modules, but I'd say this would be an appropriate institution to ask re. osteopathic rotations. Mind you, it's not in Ireland.

pug_in_tophat

Hey Locum, I'm as much against quackery as you are. I think you ought to check out the wiki page on Osteopathic medicine in the USA before you keep acting like I'm some anti-science Dr Oz proselytizer. I'd link to it for you but I'm a new user and hence not allowed.
As a former science teacher who got yelled at by parents deep in the heart of Texas for suggesting that evolution is in fact, TRUE, I do agree that the USA has a long way to go. That said, I'm not the quack you are seeking. I will not be using osteopathic medicine in day-to-day practice unless it's for like, a sports injury, and only in conjunction with medicine lol.

Vorsprung

Mod Note

LM, you were asked to post helpful responses and the above doesn't cut it.

Come back to us in a week.

Lannes

Most of the places in Ireland you are applying to won't be familiar with what a DO is and if you tried to explain would probably regard the idea with horror. You should probably just state that you are a US medical student looking for an elective. Don't mention osteopathy, the concept will not go down well here at all (unlike the US where DOs and MDs work alongside each other with little if any distinction). I can recommend the ICU in the Mater Hospital in Dublin, as good as anything in the US. Maybe try contact the department of anaesthetics.

Hands down the best junior doctor I ever worked with (here or in the States) was a DO resident. There is no distinction between MDs and DOs in clinical practice in the US. Some of the DOs that I met knew that the osteopathy component is at best a load of bollocks (and potentially dangerous), but just go along to get signed off in Med School. It's all quietly dropped once they graduate.

Some were believers and thought that for example pneumonia was actually due to a musculoskeletal malalignment of the thoracic ribcage that required "manipulation" (this was being unquestionably taught at lunchtime teaching in the hospital I worked in). This would not be accepted in Ireland.

locum-motion

Am I missing something here?

The OP stated quite clearly that the degree programme s/he is studying is not a recognised degree for becoming a medical practitioner in Ireland.

Surely that's the end of the discussion, isn't it?

These places/rotations are there to train future medical practitioners. The OP is not a future medical practitioner.

Why would anyone even consider offering him/her a place?
Why would anyone even offer an interview? (Disclaimer: I don't know if interviewing forms part of the process of securing these places or not, but if it does...)
And why would anyone suggest strategies that the OP might employ to secure such a place, to the probable detriment of somebody who actually will become a medical practitioner?

Lannes

locum-motion wrote: »

Am I missing something here?

The OP stated quite clearly that the degree programme s/he is studying is not a recognised degree for becoming a medical practitioner in Ireland.

Surely that's the end of the discussion, isn't it?

These places/rotations are there to train future medical practitioners. The OP is not a future medical practitioner.

Why would anyone even consider offering him/her a place?
Why would anyone even offer an interview? (Disclaimer: I don't know if interviewing forms part of the process of securing these places or not, but if it does...)
And why would anyone suggest strategies that the OP might employ to secure such a place, to the probable detriment of somebody who actually will become a medical practitioner?

DOs work as medical practitioners in the States. The OP will be a doctor treating patients in the near future exactly the same as MDs. He is not looking for a job in Ireland but rather an elective to further his education, something which is right and proper for everyone who treats patients to obtain.

locum-motion

Lannes wrote: »

DOs work as medical practitioners in the States. The OP will be a doctor treating patients in the near future exactly the same as MDs. He is not looking for a job in Ireland but rather an elective to further his education, something which is right and proper for everyone who treats patients to obtain.

He is looking for a training slot IN IRELAND.
Those places are for people who are training to be medical practitioners IN IRELAND.

AndrewJD

locum-motion wrote: »

He is looking for a training slot IN IRELAND.
Those places are for people who are training to be medical practitioners IN IRELAND.

No they aren't. Which of our medical schools mandates that elective places in Ireland be only for Irish students? That's fundamentally not how the system works.

locum-motion

AndrewJD wrote: »

No they aren't. Which of our medical schools mandates that elective places in Ireland be only for Irish students? That's fundamentally not how the system works.

I did not say 'Irish students'. Don't knock down an argument I didn't make.

What people are talking about is giving a place in the system for training medical practitioners to a person who is not and will not be eligible to become a medical practitioner in Ireland. Nobody has yet answered the question as to why one would deny a place to a person who IS eligible in order to give that place to a person who isn't.

beardedmaster

locum-motion wrote: »

He is looking for a training slot IN IRELAND.
Those places are for people who are training to be medical practitioners IN IRELAND.

Nope. My brother studied Medicine in the UK and did an elective in Dublin.

locum-motion wrote: »

Nobody has yet answered the question as to why one would deny a place to a person who IS eligible in order to give that place to a person who isn't.

These are places for doing electives, not Intern/SHOs/Reg training jobs - the demand isn't there to dictate that the places can't be given to people from outside of Ireland.

Nonoperational

locum-motion wrote: »

He is looking for a training slot IN IRELAND.
Those places are for people who are training to be medical practitioners IN IRELAND.

Not at all. Many overseas students come and do placements here and go home again, as Irish students go and do electives abroad.

AndrewJD

locum-motion wrote: »

Nobody has yet answered the question as to why one would deny a place to a person who IS eligible in order to give that place to a person who isn't.

You wouldn't, but generally in the summer there's a massive deficit in the number of medical students in hospital so nobody needs to be denied. Supply way outstrips demand, especially away from the Dublin city centre hospitals.

locum-motion

But the people taking up these electives (and for whom these electives are designed/intended) are, even if they're not Irish or even studying in Ireland, nonetheless studying for degrees that will ultimately make them eligible to register as a medical practitioner in Ireland. I still don't see why such a place should be offered to someone who will never be eligible. You might as well offer the place to someone who's studying for a BA in History & Politics.

beardedmaster

locum-motion wrote: »

But the people taking up these electives (and for whom these electives are designed/intended) are, even if they're not Irish or even studying in Ireland, nonetheless studying for degrees that will ultimately make them eligible to register as a medical practitioner in Ireland. I still don't see why such a place should be offered to someone who will never be eligible. You might as well offer the place to someone who's studying for a BA in History & Politics.

What difference does it make if a place is offered to someone as you describe, as long as those who you feel are worthy aren't missing out in any way themselves?