Farm workers wages!

davidk1394

Just came across this thread now. Exucuse the long post. The machinery work is gone a bit quiet for the moment. I’m working on 2 different dairy farms at the moment. I consider myself experienced with stock and machinery.

Farmer 1: I’m on this farm since I was 19. It’s a well run and efficient place. I know the run of the farm, stock, machinery and get on very well with the family and the owner, we’re good friends and I see him as a mentor as i progress into my farming career. I help out during the spring doing milking, feeding and everything else. When he goes on holidays I look after the place. If his ever stuck and I’m free I’ll help him even if it’s just for an hour or calf a cow. I do a lot of hire work for him and he buys fodder off me. Also I buy stock off him. At the moment I get €13/hour along with all the meals and a bonus at Christmas. Whatever the bill comes for labor and hire work he pays without any haggling.

Farmer 2: His a neighbor of mine. He was stuck a couple of times to do feeding while he was away. The other day I gave from 8.30 am until 3pm freeze brand heifers. Throughout the day he never offered me a mug of tea or even a slice of bread. I helped him because he was stuck. Thinking of charging him €15/hour for his meanness.

I’m currently doing lambing at night for a fella. I’m getting €95 for 8 hours. I’m happy with it because I give the majority of the time lying around. I feed any ewes that lambed and bed pens. Mainly just to pass the time.

So the question is am I charging enough or undervaluing myself ?

Timmaay

15e/hr sounds very reasonable considering your skill level, however in future I would specify this beforehand, at the very least have a brief conversation with them that you normally charged this sort of money, and gauge their reaction. Some farmers will see it as too expensive, which you absolutely shouldn't take any offence to, its their loss. Given the sound of that farmer, I wouldnt be surprised if he says 15e/hr is too much ha, if he does then what will your reply be??

wrangler

Timmaay wrote: »

15e/hr sounds very reasonable considering your skill level, however in future I would specify this beforehand, at the very least have a brief conversation with them that you normally charged this sort of money, and gauge their reaction. Some farmers will see it as too expensive, which you absolutely shouldn't take any offence to, its their loss. Given the sound of that farmer, I wouldnt be surprised if he says 15e/hr is too much ha, if he does then what will your reply be??

I know a guy that just says €200/day and it's up to the farmer to fill the day but he'll work 10 - 12 hrs for it, he's in demand so you can take it or leave it, he's a carpenter but likes working for farmers when he gets the chance

2018na

It’s a strange profession farming,am a carpenter builder myself and have earned relatively decent money always.however I have a big interest in farming from doing casual labor in my youth. Would like to buy a jcb or mini digger sometime just for messing about on my own place always something to do circa 1 acre.fook me the price of like an old 25 year plus yolk. Yet on the other hand lads value there Labour at 100 euro a day .it costs this for a fill of road diesel now.there seems to be no correlation between work and reward in farming either you own it or your shat on from a height

davidk1394

Timmaay wrote: »

15e/hr sounds very reasonable considering your skill level, however in future I would specify this beforehand, at the very least have a brief conversation with them that you normally charged this sort of money, and gauge their reaction. Some farmers will see it as too expensive, which you absolutely shouldn't take any offence to, its their loss. Given the sound of that farmer, I wouldnt be surprised if he says 15e/hr is too much ha, if he does then what will your reply be??

Hmmm, I’ll explain to him what I did and if he keeps arguing I’ll take whatever I get and don’t go back again. Going forward. Tell them what I charge per hour like you said and leave it up to them then.

Base price

Don't undersell yourself. Farm help/labours are like hens teeth nowdays.

I'm a lot older than you and many years ago I was getting €12 for the first four hours and €15 thereafter for feeding/tending calves, bedding calf sheds, cow cubicles, scraping yards, feeding pit silage/maize with a matbro loader & shear grab etc, etc. I mowed meadows for silage/hay and turned, rowed and topped paddocks.

Just remember if you are are a self employed/contractor you have to submit your own TAX returns to Revenue.

Sacrolyte

How does it work with lads that have accommodation. Does it come off their wages or what.and by how much?

mallowgarry

I'm out of that game for over a year, but just got a hefty tax bill from self-employment days. I see site teleporter drivers and scaffolders are now getting 16 - 18 an hour, with taxes paid. So €15 an hour is absolute minimum.
I used to tell the farmer straight out. €1200 a year for my VHI, then about €4000 for the tax bill. If he wanted me self-employed in his yard, then it was €13 (2 years ago) or I wasn't working there. I still undervalued myself at that, they wouldn't feed or accomodate you.
500+ overseas workers applied for the skills shortages visas in the meat factories. Something like 5 applied for dairy farm work permits.
Fellas want 150+ extra cows, and expect someone else to take a hit when they can't understand why they can't make money.
It all goes back to the Labour Court / JLC Wage Agreements / Agricultural Wage being abolished, the Wage was set about €2 Euro higher than the Minimum wage with limits on hours and most were happy.
I'd nearly be asking for €15 PRSI or closer to €20 self-employed. Nobody will be there for you when you get injured so charge accordingly.
I've had four? enquiries or offers from farmers recently, they are desperate for crew, so time to fork out some €€€

einn32

mallowgarry wrote: »

I'm out of that game for over a year, but just got a hefty tax bill from self-employment days. I see site teleporter drivers and scaffolders are now getting 16 - 18 an hour, with taxes paid. So €15 an hour is absolute minimum.
I used to tell the farmer straight out. €1200 a year for my VHI, then about €4000 for the tax bill. If he wanted me self-employed in his yard, then it was €13 (2 years ago) or I wasn't working there. I still undervalued myself at that, they wouldn't feed or accomodate you.
500+ overseas workers applied for the skills shortages visas in the meat factories. Something like 5 applied for dairy farm work permits.
Fellas want 150+ extra cows, and expect someone else to take a hit when they can't understand why they can't make money.
It all goes back to the Labour Court / JLC Wage Agreements / Agricultural Wage being abolished, the Wage was set about €2 Euro higher than the Minimum wage with limits on hours and most were happy.
I'd nearly be asking for €15 PRSI or closer to €20 self-employed. Nobody will be there for you when you get injured so charge accordingly.
I've had four? enquiries or offers from farmers recently, they are desperate for crew, so time to fork out some €€€

What gets me is the full time jobs are always a salary and don't change no matter what the hours you do. But if a person comes in part time they get paid per hour. So you could be working beside a person for the day who gets more but might be less experienced!

2018na

Loads of these farms are selling milk to the value of 1000 a day plus other incomes like culls excess heifers sfp absolute cashcow of a business jeez give a decent lad a 1000 a week

davidk1394

2018na wrote: »

Loads of these farms are selling milk to the value of 1000 a day plus other incomes like culls excess heifers sfp absolute cashcow of a business jeez give a decent lad a 1000 a week

Very true. Finding good labor is hard. I find I’m more inclined to go back to the fellas who feed you before the fellas who don’t.

older by the day

Greengrass1 wrote: »

10/hr what's wrong with that lads? What other job would ye get that with out being qualified?

Put the children out begging, and pimp out the wife. You obviously haven't ran a house lately

390kid

Used to get 80 a day and 30 a milking they paid the taxes and got fed. Hadn’t much experience at the time

Joe Daly

It pays to look after staff, a man near me had a contracting firm he had lads working with him they were fools he bought a new fendt summer 2014 by the time people had enough of him 2017 there was four thousand euro worth of damage done to the tractor with 2,000 hours on it. The saying goes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, I have lads working with me sometimes they have to work away from home supply them with phone, van, diesel . Agricultural contracting has changed time is everything most houses the wife is out working some places you might be blessed you don't get a dinner in so some lads bring a lunch, or we supply food.

SuperTortoise

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Welcome to the real world lad. Plenty surviving on less that work with me.

Big difference between surviving and living.

Keep Sluicing

I'm being left go from work at the end if april and a friend of mine offered me €100/day nett, on his dairy farm. 6:30 to 6. I know he never finishes at 6 and its normally 7.
I had to politely decline as i have other work lined up (i dont). But he was kinda put out that i wouldn't take him up on it, he said there would be a handy bit of tractor driving (that was supposed to be the sweetener)

wrangler

Joe Daly wrote: »

It pays to look after staff, a man near me had a contracting firm he had lads working with him they were fools he bought a new fendt summer 2014 by the time people had enough of him 2017 there was four thousand euro worth of damage done to the tractor with 2,000 hours on it. The saying goes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, I have lads working with me sometimes they have to work away from home supply them with phone, van, diesel . Agricultural contracting has changed time is everything most houses the wife is out working some places you might be blessed you don't get a dinner in so some lads bring a lunch, or we supply food.

Sometimes you're better to bring your own food

blackbox

Keep Sluicing wrote: »

I'm being left go from work at the end if april and a friend of mine offered me €100/day nett, on his dairy farm. 6:30 to 6. I know he never finishes at 6 and its normally 7.
I had to politely decline as i have other work lined up (i dont). But he was kinda put out that i wouldn't take him up on it, he said there would be a handy bit of tractor driving (that was supposed to be the sweetener)

That's less than the minimum wage.

Keep Sluicing

blackbox wrote: »

That's less than the minimum wage.

Exactly. He has a fair turnover of staff beacause he says "young fellas dont want to do a proper days work anymore"

Who2

blackbox wrote: »

That's less than the minimum wage.

Do you know his tax circumstances?

Keepgrowing

blackbox wrote: »

That's less than the minimum wage.

How could you know. It’s a nett figure being quoted, you’ve no idea of the posters tax situation.

jaymla627

blackbox wrote: »

That's less than the minimum wage.

To clear 500 euro a week, you would be looking at a gross wage touching 600 euro for a single person, to be fair it’s above minimum wage, if a hour and a half is given daily for breakfast/lunch...
Still wouldn’t be to exciting a job prospect if you where milking twice daily and weekend end was expected

Keep Sluicing

jaymla627 wrote: »

To clear 500 euro a week, you would be looking at a gross wage touching 600 euro for a single person, to be fair it’s above minimum wage, if a hour and a half is given daily for breakfast/lunch...
Still wouldn’t be to exciting a job prospect if you where milking twice daily and weekend end was expected

Sorry. I have miss lead ye with my stupidity . It was €100/day gross figure...

Who2

A rough guide for anyone wondering the true cost of a wage, including holiday on a single person tax band. 400 home is costing 568 to employer. 450 home 656 to employer. 500 home 744 to employer. 550 home 832 employer. 600 home 953 employer. 650 home is 1076 to employer and it just keeps getting worse. With the new tax system I’d say a lot of lads are going to be both shocked and others disappointed come the end of the year as their credits run thin. Now is there many farms out there that can genuinely pay out 650 take home to some young lad that’s going to cost nearly 1100 per week, and still stay profitable? That’s 50k per annum, and then have to supply sandwiches and rub his ego.
I know people have to get fairly treated but people shouldn’t be going into ag jobs with rose tinted glasses on expecting to look out through the front window of a fendt and get top money on a take home basis. The truth is I don’t think there is enough profit in most farming to justify paying high wages, so maybe the lad milking 100 cows on his own is a lot better off than the lad chasing ground to milk 150 and pay it out on wages. But I doubt there’s many would accept that.

charolais0153

Who2 wrote: »

A rough guide for anyone wondering the true cost of a wage, including holiday on a single person tax band. 400 home is costing 568 to employer. 450 home 656 to employer. 500 home 744 to employer. 550 home 832 employer. 600 home 953 employer. 650 home is 1076 to employer and it just keeps getting worse. With the new tax system I’d say a lot of lads are going to be both shocked and others disappointed come the end of the year as their credits run thin. Now is there many farms out there that can genuinely pay out 650 take home to some young lad that’s going to cost nearly 1100 per week, and still stay profitable? That’s 50k per annum, and then have to supply sandwiches and rub his ego.
I know people have to get fairly treated but people shouldn’t be going into ag jobs with rose tinted glasses on expecting to look out through the front window of a fendt and get top money on a take home basis. The truth is I don’t think there is enough profit in most farming to justify paying high wages, so maybe the lad milking 100 cows on his own is a lot better off than the lad chasing ground to milk 150 and pay it out on wages. But I doubt there’s many would accept that.

Thats where expenses come into it. If you were getting a car and expenses etc. You wouldnt need as much pay . only way to do it

Panch18

Who2 wrote: »

A rough guide for anyone wondering the true cost of a wage, including holiday on a single person tax band. 400 home is costing 568 to employer. 450 home 656 to employer. 500 home 744 to employer. 550 home 832 employer. 600 home 953 employer. 650 home is 1076 to employer and it just keeps getting worse. With the new tax system I’d say a lot of lads are going to be both shocked and others disappointed come the end of the year as their credits run thin. Now is there many farms out there that can genuinely pay out 650 take home to some young lad that’s going to cost nearly 1100 per week, and still stay profitable? That’s 50k per annum, and then have to supply sandwiches and rub his ego.
I know people have to get fairly treated but people shouldn’t be going into ag jobs with rose tinted glasses on expecting to look out through the front window of a fendt and get top money on a take home basis. The truth is I don’t think there is enough profit in most farming to justify paying high wages, so maybe the lad milking 100 cows on his own is a lot better off than the lad chasing ground to milk 150 and pay it out on wages. But I doubt there’s many would accept that.

Winner of post of the year

Thanks for laying the cold hard facts out like that

Rows Grower

I help out an elderly farmer if he ask's me, usually it's when he is injecting or scanning sheep or maybe cutting up old trees for firewood or some type of heavy work he can't do on his own any longer.

He's a sound bloke and great company, the farm is the most scenic you could imagine and he lets me hunt and shoot it but the meanness is ingrained into him from a life of watching pennies. I never once charged him money anytime I helped him out and he never once offered any. If we went for a pint afterwards he might break his routine and call first, but that's it, it'd be my call next.

He asked me to give him a hand recently when I met him in the pub and I had other commitments that were important so I told him I couldn't help him any day that week. His reaction was well "feck it anyway I'll have to get *** to help me so". When I remarked that *** was a fine reliable worker he said "I know that, but he'll cost me 60 euro's for each day." When I said that was very cheap wages for a man in this day and age his response was "Shur he's good for nothing else, his brother is way smarter."

Just throwing it out there as I'm sure other people know similar farmers with whom every penny is a prisoner.

JeffKenna

Who2 wrote: »

A rough guide for anyone wondering the true cost of a wage, including holiday on a single person tax band. 400 home is costing 568 to employer. 450 home 656 to employer. 500 home 744 to employer. 550 home 832 employer. 600 home 953 employer. 650 home is 1076 to employer and it just keeps getting worse. With the new tax system I’d say a lot of lads are going to be both shocked and others disappointed come the end of the year as their credits run thin. Now is there many farms out there that can genuinely pay out 650 take home to some young lad that’s going to cost nearly 1100 per week, and still stay profitable? That’s 50k per annum, and then have to supply sandwiches and rub his ego.
I know people have to get fairly treated but people shouldn’t be going into ag jobs with rose tinted glasses on expecting to look out through the front window of a fendt and get top money on a take home basis. The truth is I don’t think there is enough profit in most farming to justify paying high wages, so maybe the lad milking 100 cows on his own is a lot better off than the lad chasing ground to milk 150 and pay it out on wages. But I doubt there’s many would accept that.

Where are you pulling these figures from? Have a look at the Deloitte Tax Calculator, €400 take home pay to a lad is costing €502 to the employer.

Who2

JeffKenna wrote: »

Where are you pulling these figures from? Have a look at the Deloitte Tax Calculator, €400 take home pay to a lad is costing €502 to the employer.

Did you allow for holiday and usc and prsi.

Who2

JeffKenna wrote: »

Where are you pulling these figures from? Have a look at the Deloitte Tax Calculator, €400 take home pay to a lad is costing €502 to the employer.

400 is grossing 453 or 11 per hour , prsi 49 euro or a gross weekly of 502, include holidays and it’s 568 euro or 114 per day. Or do farmers get exempt from paying holiday pay?

JeffKenna

Who2 wrote: »

400 is grossing 453 or 11 per hour , prsi 49 euro or a gross weekly of 502, include holidays and it’s 568 euro or 114 per day. Or do farmers get exempt from paying holiday pay?

But sur give them there 4 weeks off at that back end of the year or a time that suits like all employees. That still works out at 502 a week over 52 weeks. In any case holiday pay is 4 weeks so I still can't see where the 66 euro a week is coming from. Aka 66 * 52 = 3,432. Divide by 20 annual leave days gives 171 euro a day which is far more than the 400 euro a week your paying them in the first place?

Who2

JeffKenna wrote: »

But sur give them there 4 weeks off at that back end of the year or a time that suits like all employees. That still works out at 502 a week over 52 weeks. In any case holiday pay is 4 weeks so I still can't see where the 66 euro a week is coming from. Aka 66 * 52 = 3,432. Divide by 20 annual leave days gives 171 euro a day which is far more than the 400 euro a week your paying them in the first place?

48 earning weeks 52 paying weeks then add in bank holidays. I’ve sat down with the accountant and we done a complete breakdown on employees and those are the figures. Maybe I’m missing something but it’s what I’m using as a basis.

JeffKenna

Who2 wrote: »

48 earning weeks 52 paying weeks then add in bank holidays. I’ve sat down with the accountant and we done a complete breakdown on employees and those are the figures. Maybe I’m missing something but it’s what I’m using as a basis.

I think what your looking at is the cost of the 48 earning weeks. That's grand if you want to know how much a lad costs for each week he's physically on the farm but if but if you then quote that as a cost you can't multiply it by 52 weeks to get a yearly cost.

Who2

JeffKenna wrote: »

I think what your looking at is the cost of the 48 earning weeks. That's grand if you want to know how much a lad costs for each week he's physically on the farm but if but if you then quote that as a cost you can't multiply it by 52 weeks to get a yearly cost.

it’s costing 26117 at 400 per week take home or he’s costing you 568 euro including holidays for the weeks they work. We can break it down from whatever way you want but those are the figures I doubt lads realize the true cost. Self employed lads have to be allowing for the holidays they don’t receive.

Grueller

I understand that farming does not leave a lot behind it. But just following on from the breakdown in costs above and not tarring anyone here with this brush as I don't know any of ye personally.
I have no sympathy for the dairy farmers (and I know a couple locally) that are on a monster land grab, pushing cow numbers and then whinge incessantly about the cost of labour, contractors and land rent. Did they not factor this in at the start of their expansion plans? Surely they didn't think one labour unit could manage 300 cows? They should also realise that an employee will never care about their farm in the way they do themselves. Sorry, rant over.

JeffKenna

Who2 wrote: »

it’s costing 26117 at 400 per week take home or he’s costing you 568 euro including holidays for the weeks they work. We can break it down from whatever way you want but those are the figures I doubt lads realize the true cost. Self employed lads have to be allowing for the holidays they don’t receive.

It's splitting hairs but the way you look at it inflates the costs in my mind and it'd be better to take a yearly cost. Aka saying someone costs 568 a week implies that they cost that for 52 weeks.

Who2

JeffKenna wrote: »

It's splitting hairs but the way you look at it inflates the costs in my mind and it'd be better to take a yearly cost. Aka saying someone costs 568 a week implies that they cost that for 52 weeks.

I gave what a lad gets per week over the 52 weeks as per norm, they then work 48 weeks 568 is what they cost per week or in an other option 568 is what they need to earn while workingthen add in a portion of accountants fees and insurance and you need a little more. It’s not that crazy of a concept. Throw in a little overtime and it goes mental altogether.

Waffletraktor

Moral of the story farm workers should expect crap wages and farmers should expect to find no workers.

Who2

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Moral of the story farm workers should expect crap wages and farmers should expect to find no workers.

But what’s crap wages? Most bank staff earn under 30k, your average vet doesn’t make much along with 30 until they get in with the department or set out on their own. It’s a different story when it all gets distorted with Dublin pay but the costs there wouldn’t even compare. More people need to consider what’s made on the fringes than on the primary income.

Waffletraktor

Who2 wrote: »

But what’s crap wages? Most bank staff earn under 30k, your average vet doesn’t make much along with 30 until they get in with the department or set out on their own. It’s a different story when it all gets distorted with Dublin pay but the costs there wouldn’t even compare. More people need to consider what’s made on the fringes than on the primary income.

Would you work on a farm averaging 55hrs per week with the associated seasonal variation for 30k? . We'll be kind and give 25 days holiday.

stefanovich

frazzledhome wrote: »

Netto

Cash in hand job hmm, hope you pay your tax.

Mooooo

stefanovich wrote: »

Cash in hand job hmm, hope you pay your tax.

May as well read the whole thread if you're going back that far

Bullocks

Mooooo wrote: »

May as well read the whole thread if you're going back that far

The revenue would just about go back that far haha

Who2

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Would you work on a farm averaging 55hrs per week with the associated seasonal variation for 30k? . We'll be kind and give 25 days holiday.

I wouldn’t but then there’s a lot of things I wouldn’t do but I’m comparing a 39 hr week which no matter what way it’s put is going to have to start being implemented. It’s this dragging and pulling out of the length of day that’s destroying getting staff. Lads want regular hours where they can plan out in front of them. If I needed work and I could get 30k for set hours and loved doing what I was at then it wouldn’t be a bad option. If I got the use of the farm Jeep on top and maybe a mobile paid for then it wouldn’t be a bad looking package.

Bass Reeves

Agriculture is competing out there on the open market for labour. Since 2017 as wages elsewhere have risen they have faced the hard reality of employing labour. Any lad with a bit of work ethic can earn 15/hour .

For lots of lads the choice between working for a dairy farmer @ 10/ hour compare to maybe Lidl, Aldi, a meat factory or a bar job is not too inviting. When you are down in that wage bracket you are in a job not a career. You are there to do your hours without any loyalty to the business. Some employers own you but not a 10-12 euro/ hour

theaceofspies

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Agriculture is competing out there on the open market for labour. Since 2017 as wages elsewhere have risen they have faced the hard reality of employing labour. Any lad with a bit of work ethic can earn 15/hour .

For lots of lads the choice between working for a dairy farmer @ 10/ hour compare to maybe Lidl, Aldi, a meat factory or a bar job is not too inviting. When you are down in that wage bracket you are in a job not a career. You are there to do your hours without any loyalty to the business. Some employers own you but not a 10-12 euro/ hour

Bass Reeves you have just written in a few sentences some very true words that a lot of highly paid journalists are afraid to put into words.

Box09

Who2 wrote:

But what’s crap wages? Most bank staff earn under 30k, your average vet doesn’t make much along with 30 until they get in with the department or set out on their own. It’s a different story when it all gets distorted with Dublin pay but the costs there wouldn’t even compare. More people need to consider what’s made on the fringes than on the primary income.

I don't know where you get 30k from. A grad now starts on 30k. Most people paid a lot more than that.

theaceofspies

Government sponsored Grads (Servants of the Public) start on €30k courtesy of recent nurses deal.
In Private sector such pay is limited mostly to Dublin, Cork & Limerick.

relax carry on

charolais0153 wrote: »

Thats where expenses come into it. If you were getting a car and expenses etc. You wouldnt need as much pay . only way to do it

Getting a car equals BIK for the employee/employer. That leaves paying expenses which you can just reimburse the employee for exactly what he paid out or using a variant of the civil service rates.
Paying someone a round sum expense will be treated as untaxed wages by Revenue when discovered.

Grueller

theaceofspies wrote: »

Government sponsored Grads (Servants of the Public) start on €30k courtesy of recent nurses deal.
In Private sector such pay is limited mostly to Dublin, Cork & Limerick.

Nephew is out of college since September. Civil engineer, working out of Waterford. Phone, van, 26 days holidays €41k. 8 - 5 Monday to Friday.