I need a double!

Moomat

Are you looking for an employee or contractor?

cormie

I'd be looking to start off on a contractor basis with a view to becoming an employee if they are suitable.

pedroeibar1

cormie wrote: »

I'd be looking to start off on a contractor basis with a view to becoming an employee if they are suitable.

You need to rethink that IMO.
You will have little control over a contractor (other than firing) and a lot of harm could be done to your business image by a bad contractor. Would your potentail partner be happy were you to delegate to a contractor?

Moomat

cormie wrote: »

I'd be looking to start off on a contractor basis with a view to becoming an employee if they are suitable.

It appears from your advertisement that you want somebody to drive your vehicles and use your equipment/technology. I would say this is firmly in employee territory, regardless of what you call them. The labour courts and civil courts will probably think the same if you were unfortunate enough to end up in front of them.
Revenue also take a dim view of this but I'm not sure if there's anything that they can do about it.
Have a good look into it before you go ahead. If dodging PRSI and obligations to employees is your main goal then you may find it's not as straight forward as just taking on contractors in place of employees.

antoinolachtnai

The whole logistics industry is run with contracting from what I can see. Owner-drivers are very common.

cormie

Thanks again for the input folks. Yeah the ideal (or at least what I think would be the ideal at the moment) would be to just get somebody in on a contractor basis, so they'd invoice me after each job they do rather than getting into the employee set up immediately without even having found an employee and then once I get someone suitable (if I have to go through a few different people), I'd then get things in motion in terms of employment.

It's just a very awkward role in terms of working hours and days so the idea of jumping into getting an employee is quite daunting.

Even better than this would be to partner with someone who'd help with the management and running of the business on a % share and then they could manage certain things such as setting up for employees etc while I concentrate on what I'm good at.

One things for sue and that's I need a competent driver asap because I've been refusing work for the last 3 weeks and been doing all the driving and labour work myself, which as adventurous as it was, it's no way to run things.

pedronomix

You think you and a van driver could generate enough revenue to support a professional manager, never mind yourselves?

Atomico

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the input folks. Yeah the ideal (or at least what I think would be the ideal at the moment) would be to just get somebody in on a contractor basis, so they'd invoice me after each job they do rather than getting into the employee set up immediately without even having found an employee and then once I get someone suitable (if I have to go through a few different people), I'd then get things in motion in terms of employment.

It's just a very awkward role in terms of working hours and days so the idea of jumping into getting an employee is quite daunting.

Even better than this would be to partner with someone who'd help with the management and running of the business on a % share and then they could manage certain things such as setting up for employees etc while I concentrate on what I'm good at.

One things for sue and that's I need a competent driver asap because I've been refusing work for the last 3 weeks and been doing all the driving and labour work myself, which as adventurous as it was, it's no way to run things.

In the current economy with scores of people still on part-time hours or just unemployed, how difficult could it be possibly be to find a van driver / mover?!!

Like can you not just post the job in various places, hold some interviews, shortlist a few candidates and offer one of them the job, or a contract? I don't get why you would be turning down work like that and losing money when you could just do this. Feels like you are massively over-complicating things. Also seems a shame to be missing out on revenue like that! Plus you don't have to make any major decisions in a hurry, just hire someone and see how things grow and go from there!

cormie

Yeah I should be able to find a driver easy enough, but I'm a little apprehensive about getting a complete stranger if I'm not fully set up in terms of employment law if the contractor set up isn't suitable.

Taking 3 salaries might be tricky which is why it would have been ideal to use a contractor type set up and a % share with a potential manager.

antoinolachtnai

If you need an employee and don't know how to go about it, get a HR consultant. I think there are serious H+S issues and I would be concerned to sort that out. You will also need to put in a good bit of capital to buy trucks.

If you are going to have a contractor, you need to figure out your contract, in particular in relation to confidentiality.

If you bring in a manager for a percentage of the business, you are going to be giving up a big chunk of the business.

You are clearly not too flush with capital. I think the only way you can really expand without capital is with owner-drivers.

You are at an important juncture and you need to think this out. Personally I think you need to get a bunch of owner-drivers, train them how you want them trained, and then concentrate on the marketing. Then get another person in who can take over the scheduling and customer service for you.

pedroeibar1

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

......You are at an important juncture and you need to think this out. Personally I think you need to get a bunch of owner-drivers, train them how you want them trained, and then concentrate on the marketing. Then get another person in who can take over the scheduling and customer service for you.

The above comment is IMO the key issue and I'm not fully in agreement because OP has two distinct businesses –
- The first is a “man with a van” type business, which essentially is a courier operation that could be contracted out quite easily.
- The second business is the one he is about to grow, which is linked to a firm providing relocation services.

The second business is in an entirely different area, one that calls for different skillsets, training, product packaging & handling, etc. That IMO cannot be contracted out for those foregoing reasons and I'd suggest the training would be a waste of time and money (cost:benefit ratio and possibly creating trained competitors!) I’d be confident in betting that his new partner (the relocation firm) while happy with Cormie doing his work would be most unhappy with him outsourcing it to a contractor and Cormie would be dropped very fast.

So outsourcing this line of work should not be a decision taken lightly.

pedronomix

Not sure you have grasped the concept correctly pedro eile! The existing business is a type of removals business not a courier operation, the other company wants to tap into the style of operation/execution to offer an equal quality service, as I read it. This is not about rocket science but about delivering a quality of service with flexibility. you can train for this and QC it!

antoinolachtnai

There is a big problem there for sure. Even the man-with-van business requires a reasonably high standard of customer service.

Employing your own people isn't a guarantee of quality either, unless you are in a position to put in place a lot of training and quality management (which costs €€€) as well as acquiring the vehicles.

The 'right' way to solve this is by personally knowing a lot of operators who you trust and then over time broadening the network and building up your training and quality and having an appropriate incentive scheme.

Looking at it a different way, it may well be that the person you need next is a person who knows a lot of van drivers.

cormie

Just to clarify, my business is a furniture removal/man with a van type operation that mainly deals in dedicated load services, so it's essentially van hire with a driver who is there to help with the loading and removal or a helper can be provided too and the two guys would take care of everything

Each job is different and needs to be assessed based on what's required, it could be a simple house move within Dublin that takes 2 hours or it could be bringing a customer and their pet and all their belongings in the van to the South of Spain which could be a 7 day return journey for the driver for example.

The other company simply rang me to see if we can give eachother business, so if somebody wanted only 10 boxes moved to Italy and didn't care how long it took to get them there and only wanted the cheapest price, then I couldn't compete unless I had a van over there in very close proximity, which would be extremely rare and the customer would simply go elsewhere. The other company are able to give much more competitve prices on these jobs as they work with several providers like myself. They have no vehicles themselves. So for example, I can ask them how much to move the 10 boxes to Italy, they give a price and then I add a bit on to make it worthwhile for it to go through me and the other company take care of everything on the removal side of things. Then the other way around, if I had an empty van coming from Germany for example, I can ring them up and let them know and then they might be able to get me to fill up a backload for them and I'd make a bit of money off the empty van space.

The reason I haven't yet had an employee is due to the uncertainty of work and the odd hours required and the often short notice needed for jobs too. It's not like having a shop or office where it's set hours, the hours can change week to week some weeks it could be maybe 2 hours work, another it could be 7 days away, it's so uncertain and that's a big part of the problem. I've been lucky enough to be able to survive getting help on a contractor basis, by contractor I mean having guys I can rely on who are available at different time during the week and they do a job for me and invoice me for the hours. I'm not talking about contracting out to other companies.

I probably have enough work for a full time driver now and unfortunately the guys I was using aren't available for this position and are now very restricted with the hours they can work so I'm now stuck where I've a demand for work, but nobody to do it. This problem has arose before but I always managed to find somebody in my network of friends etc. Now I think I definitely need to go beyond this which of course I'm a bit apprehensive about.

cormie

Wow, just saw the price to list on Irishjobs.ie (€950+VAT) and jobs.ie (€665+VAT). I listed on adverts to test the water, if I don't have any luck I guess I'll need to try jobs.ie (irishjobs is more IT related I believe).

The ad is here: http://www.adverts.ie/jobs/vantasks/furniture-removal-porter-driver/8932903

CatFromHue

You could check what it's like on Jobsireland.ie

uck51js9zml2yt

I used to hire drivers through agencies.
It gave me the flexibility I needed to keep or fire them as needed and if someone worked out I could take them on.
It also let me meet business needs.
At the time I had 14 guys answering to me serving 1500 customers a week.

cormie

Thanks for the replies above. Tatranska, the sales guy on jobs.ie said an agency would charge about 3K to fill a position? Were you paying that to find your drivers? I have to emphasise again that this is a lot different than just driving, some days can be several hours lifting heavy, awkward, delicate furniture and boxes up and down several flights of stairs and it can be very physical and require a lot of fitness. Some guys I've used have looked like they were almost about to die after a few minutes.

I was speaking to a friend who has a service business and about 10-15 guys working for him. He hires them on a contractor basis and gives them a van which they pay off over the start of their term, if they last long enough doing the job they eventually own the van, but they are making payments for it from the get go. He said that he spoke to his accountant as to whether it would be better to employ them and the accountant was saying that it would open him up to all hassles and he's much better off just keeping it as is. They also have their own insurance etc.

I know several of you have suggested to get owner drivers and this would be similar, only they don't have the van to begin with. The van is a very important part of this job of course and although my friends business uses the vans just a means of carrying a few things for the service, my vans need to be far more equipped, kept very clean and also different vans would be required for different jobs so I'm not sure how to approach that. I wonder rather than paying off a van, could they simply rent the van off me for each job. Maybe it would keep it legal in definition of what constitutes as a contractor vs employee.

My friend also mentioned that he believes you get much better results if the guys are being paid on a job-job basis rather than them knowing they are getting x amount of pay a week regardless of how many jobs they do and how efficiently they do them and they are more willing to do the jobs as each job means more money for them.

Graham

cormie wrote: »

you get much better results if the guys are being paid on a job-job basis rather than them knowing they are getting x amount of pay a week regardless of how many jobs they do and how efficiently they do them and they are more willing to do the jobs as each job means more money for them.

Be careful what you reward. If your compensation is entirely based on quantity you can guarantee your drivers will concentrate on this above all else. Do you really want a driver to be racing that €5k grand piano around the place so he can make an extra €20 squeezing in another job or two.

I wonder would it be a realistic option to structure payments so 25% (ish) of the pay for each job is contingent on the job being completed without damages and to the customers satisfaction......

cormie

99% of my domestic jobs are charged based on time so I'd be paying my guys based on time too. I haven't yet had a problem with anyone where they dilly dally to make the job longer so they get paid more.

I've emphasised how it's in everyone's best interest the job isn't rushed and unless the customer says "ah just throw that in don't worry about it", I want the utmost care taken with all items.

The bonus for job completion without damages and to customer satisfaction is a good idea definitely, but I also want my guys to be honest and point out any damage that may have happened, albeit very rare.

Tipping is actually quite common with this work and if a customer has seen you working hard all day and taking care of their goods and doing an overall good job, it's quite common for them to tip so this is certainly another incentive.

antoinolachtnai

It does sound like your problem here is recruitment. Your model is good, but you just don't have enough staff.

The reason agencies and all the rest charge for recruitment for the same reason that you aren't succeeding at doing it yourself: it is hard.

jimmii

The van rental sounds like it could be a good idea so you can keep control over their quality then try recruit a pool of drivers. Are there no freelance driver agencies out there? Would have thought that would be something a lot of companies would use.

uck51js9zml2yt

I preferred the use of agencies as it gave me flexibility in hiring. They also felt with wages etc.
In the end there was only 1 guy I tool on and that was with him leaving the agency and going to work for a contractor who had some of my routes. As I hadn't hired him,I had no fees
The other guy had none either as he hadn't dealt with the agency.
I trained them in, gave them a rental truck and if they didn't work out I got rid of them.
We had an agreement with walkers for truck leases.
It wasn't just a case of them dropping off. There was a service they provided on site so training was important. I had a total of 70_routes weekly with 1500 customers.
I paid an hourly rate with overtime but knew how long a route would take so as not to be taken advantage of, though I increased the standard working hours for agency drivers to cut down on overtime.

pedroeibar1

pedronomix wrote: »

Not sure you have grasped the concept correctly pedro eile! The existing business is a type of removals business not a courier operation, the other company wants to tap into the style of operation/execution to offer an equal quality service, as I read it. This is not about rocket science but about delivering a quality of service with flexibility. you can train for this and QC it!

Just back Pedro, been busy away doing some pussy stuff.(Miaow :P) :)

Not only do I grasp the concept, I have experience of that end of the business as you know. Lots of comment in posts above, not much credible advice because few have actually bothered to think about Cormie’s real business. That too IMO is Cormie’s problem – he does not really know what business he is in, and what is more disconcerting, he does not realise the several pitfalls he can fall into, as explained by his post here which is considerably less than a precise description of a core "business".

Is he a man with a van, a courier or a mover? Is he a relocation operator or a guy who can provide a “bespoke service” move? Five different business models, and he is trying but cannot be all of them. (Nothing wrong with that BTW) Graham hit one of the nails on the head with his post above, on how a grand piano could be handled (and 5k is a rubbish grand).

If I wanted valuable goods or an employee moved and were Ms. HR in Google/HP/Apple/Novartis/whoever (or a guy referring that type of business) I would not want some randomer contractor of Cormie's near my employee at such a sensitive time. If I had good experience with Cormie in the past I would want him/one of his employees, or no job is awarded. If he used a contractor without telling me, end of relationship.

As one who spent decades as an expat in several countries and sent/hired others, I’d use Cormie’s firm to deliver a few boxes, trust him (only him) to bring valuable X to place Y, BUT if he hired contractors I’d drop him like a hot potato.

cormie

Jimmii, do you mean my drivers renting the van off me? Really the only reason I'd do this is to get around the legal issue of them being considered employees if they are driving my van. If they are owner drivers they are considered contractors, so if they are paying to rent one of my vans, I'd hope this would let them still be classed as owner driver/contractor. Only for the fact that it's probably far easier to get drivers on a non employee basis for me?

Tatranska, were your guys considered employees or just contractors? Was it a legal requirement that you paid your guys overtime? Did they use their own tools or were these provided by you also?

pedroeibar1, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a courier in the sense I'd be doing 80 drops to 80 different customers in a 10 mile radius like a lot of couriers would be doing. I generally wouldn't charge a customer less than €85 and that would be local in Dublin. I specialise in dedicated, direct van loads, whatever someone needs moved, I give them a price, if they are happy with the price, I do the job. I collect an item and generally deliver it immediately as fast as traffic, ferries and other arrangements let me. If a customer has flexibility with delivery and I can fit another customer or two who were waiting for a load in that direction to be booked so I can offer them a cheaper price on a long distance run I may have, so be it and I can make a bit of extra profit here.

I can basically do anything a customer requires that would need a driver or driver and helper(s) to do loading, unloading, assembly, IKEA shopping, packing etc. If storage needs to be arranged I can help with this too but most jobs are generally stuff goes into the van, van moves, stuff comes out of the van, job done.

I may not be able to offer everything a company specialising in one thing in particular can, such as a relocation company offering to find schools, store items in their own warehouse, or a courier company delivering a 15kg box for €8 from Dublin to Cork, but when my vans are in use, they are certainly making money and the only time they are really costing me money (maintenance, fuel etc) is when they are making money.

Can I ask if you were the HR you mentioned, what difference it would make whether I pay my workers based on a contractor basis or employee basis. If I am trusting them to carry my reputation, if they are driving a branded van, wearing vantasks apparel and everything as an employee would be, but just given the nature of the business it makes more sense (I still don't know if this is true) to hire them on a contractor basis and how would you know they were contractors or employees in the first place?

Thanks again for the input everyone!

uck51js9zml2yt

I had a mix of employees , contractors who supplied their own vehicles and agency staff who were in effect temps.
The agency staff used our vans and trucks which we leased long or short term.
All staff and contractors were supplied with a uniform.
If I thought agency staff were going to be longish term they got a more basic uniform as well.

pedroeibar1

cormie wrote: »

pedroeibar1, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a courier in the sense I'd be doing 80 drops to 80 different customers in a 10 mile radius like a lot of couriers would be doing. I generally wouldn't charge a customer less than €85 and that would be local in Dublin. I specialise in dedicated, direct van loads, whatever someone needs moved, I give them a price, if they are happy with the price, I do the job. I collect an item and generally deliver it immediately as fast as traffic, ferries and other arrangements let me. If a customer has flexibility with delivery and I can fit another customer or two who were waiting for a load in that direction to be booked so I can offer them a cheaper price on a long distance run I may have, so be it and I can make a bit of extra profit here.

I can basically do anything a customer requires that would need a driver or driver and helper(s) to do loading, unloading, assembly, IKEA shopping, packing etc. If storage needs to be arranged I can help with this too but most jobs are generally stuff goes into the van, van moves, stuff comes out of the van, job done.

I may not be able to offer everything a company specialising in one thing in particular can, such as a relocation company offering to find schools, store items in their own warehouse, or a courier company delivering a 15kg box for €8 from Dublin to Cork, but when my vans are in use, they are certainly making money and the only time they are really costing me money (maintenance, fuel etc) is when they are making money.

Can I ask if you were the HR you mentioned, what difference it would make whether I pay my workers based on a contractor basis or employee basis. If I am trusting them to carry my reputation, if they are driving a branded van, wearing vantasks apparel and everything as an employee would be, but just given the nature of the business it makes more sense (I still don't know if this is true) to hire them on a contractor basis and how would you know they were contractors or employees in the first place?

All that does is reinforce my point Cormie. Regardless of your own view of your business, you would be perceived as a courier by many because you will take a small package from A to B. You need to define what business you are in and what part(s) of it you want to grow. Rifle not shotgun. The needs/expectations of a guy who wants a mattress from Harvey Norman are different to those of a widow who wants a wardrobe from Ikea collected/delivered/assembled and those of a SME that wants a small pallet of parts delivered rapido to a customer in Kerry. All those are again different to wrap/pack/deliver for an expat. And different again to someone who is happy to wait a week or so until you have a back-load or another few boxes to go on the ferry to obtain a cheaper price. IMO in the present state of your business you need to decide what is the most profitable and has the most potential and concentrate on that.

There are negatives on trying to be all things to all men – if I want the bed from Harvey and you quote me €100 against the €70 from competitor, your names sticks as being a rip-off. If I want the bed delivered and assembled that price/deal might seem great and instead I tell all my friends about how useful you are. (I cannot remember the exact figures from the Ford study, but it was something like good PR was told by customers to 4, bad news to 22)

On the employment issues you have two key items to look at - tax/employment and the legal issue surrounding who are the parties to your “service” contact. IMO you effectively are the guy on the line should anything go wrong. All the international moving/relocation companies I have dealt with outsource some of their services – for e.g. one will pack/wrap/ship and at the other end another company takes over. Similarly other relocation services (schooling, house finding, etc) are always outsourced to a contractor, but that area is a totally different industry. But the key issue is the guy I hire carries the can should something happen. That is why there are City & Guilds courses in transporting/warehousing, etc. to show professionalism in a moving co. In my experience of using relocation services price sensitivity was less important than trust, reputation and experience.

pedronomix

How very odd, a customer that seeks to dictate how you run your business.... always had a two word response to those types, second word "off"! Provider undertakes to give client specified services at agreed terms for price, timing, quality etc. and takes responsibility for the job end to end. Trust is built by repeatedly delivering just that. how you do it simply none of the clients business. Of course there are pernickety potential customers out there, generally better to move on to more normal clients and let someone else have the inevitable grief that is often a feature of dealing with this profile!

antoinolachtnai

I think we have moved on to demand and market issues. But the OP really has a resourcing issue.

Different people have different needs for sure but segmenting the market is not always the answer. I think OP is right to sell a basically generic moving product. But he needs to build up volume and the supply side is what is holding him back.

pedronomix

Cormie and I are to meet next week. He has written homework to prepare, limited to a single A4 page first! P