I need a double!

pedroeibar1

pedronomix wrote: »

How very odd, a customer that seeks to dictate how you run your business.... always had a two word response to those types, second word "off"! Provider undertakes to give client specified services at agreed terms for price, timing, quality etc. and takes responsibility for the job end to end. Trust is built by repeatedly delivering just that. how you do it simply none of the clients business. Of course there are pernickety potential customers out there, generally better to move on to more normal clients and let someone else have the inevitable grief that is often a feature of dealing with this profile!

Very confusing pedro eile, I’m surprised at you posting that stuff, particularly as it is divorced from anything posted earlier! AFAIK nobody has "dictated" anything. Look again at what you have written above, “Provider undertakes to give client specified services at agreed terms for price, timing, quality etc. and takes responsibility for the job end to end.” No argument with that, it's how business works, but Cormie currently provides a boutique service (him & small team) and is now proposing to outsource his activities to contractors. Different ballgame. As a buyer of his service how would you feel about that? Total breach of prior experience, expectation and trust! Customers tend to be pernickety, to use your idiom, but ……..em , they still are the customer and generally they are a requirement to survive in business. Giving them directions as you suggest with words involving “off” usually is regarded as a no-no.

One of the most interesting recent tales in the Irish transport/removals business is the history of Beverly Smith – a firm around for yonks, looked after their customer base, built a cashpile, made several acquisitions – Nat Ross, Oman Transport, etc., before selling out to a UK PLC named Veris for €15 million about 10 years ago. Then they did the typical Brit thing, said they would show the Paddies how to run a business and ….em, (again;)) gave customers directions in the terms suggested by you. What happened? Having trousered the €15 mill from Veris, just a couple of years later the Bev Smith team bought back the business for just €75,000. (Yes, seventy five thousand).

Best of luck to the two of you with your meeting, but both of you might, as part of your homework, make a few enquiries in the industry as to how Veris turned a €15 million purchase into a €75k asset in just 2 years! I’d hate to see Cormie have to move out of his seafront apartment, although the neighbours might be happy to see the commercial vehicles go.

pedronomix

Your point may be valid if the majority of the existing trade is with such corporates. Cormie clearly wants to grow his business to a point where he can cede day to day management control, his current model is just not suitable. His operation is not comparable with the Bev Smyth scenario, before or after. I have a lot of experience in doing business with multiNationals over a long period and they will seek to exert maximum influence over their supply base. I am not talking about quality certification or pricing. If they sought to influence who worked in my factory, I would tell em to take a hike.
That I would seek to introduce Brit management style is simply absurd and rather puerile TBH.
I will review his customer base and it may well emerge that he needs to lose the few pernickety customers to focus on a larger market with readily deliverable expectations. This business area is significantly different to high end financial services and much more akin to my own business experience.
My comments are not any different to my earlier post about using owner drivers, so I miss your point.
Higher end clients do not care about the minutiae, they just want it done, properly, on time and on budget. Add in flexibility and a professional service delivery and they will be back!

antoinolachtnai

I think you are missing the purpose and point of Cormie's business, which I have used and which is in the name. He does not provide moving services or solutions. He provides van hire and drivers with extras. It is like the difference between booking on the Ryanair site and going through a fancy travel agent. Basically the same thing but the proposition is completely different.

pedroeibar1

No, I'm not missing any points. Cormie is a man-with-a-van with added service. Bluntly, he is a glorified courier, one with bells and whistles.

I think because Cormie is “all over the place” with his ideas we often are talking apples and oranges here. I maintain that my points are valid because way back Cormie said he wanted to grow his business with a potential partner that operated in the relocation business. I know that sector. There is a decent margin in relocation and speciality van removals, but not in vanwork (how many threads have we seen on that!). A company cannot do both, and Cormie - from what he has written - does not have the capital, outlook, attitude, skills or track record at this early stage to succeed in the speciality sector.

Pedro eile, your claim “Higher end clients do not care about the minutiae, they just want it done, properly, on time and on budget” is overly simplistic – of course higher end clients want all that, but we do very much care about the minutiae because that governs the end result (and that is why there are ISO standards, certifications, mover associations, etc.) High end clients look for those indicators, for track record, for what would/could happen to moving their product or staff. HR people do talk to each other more than any other area.

As several – including both of us and Antoin O - have said in earlier posts Cormie really needs to look at his business and its direction. I've made my views bluntly clear and as you are now his “mentor” I’ll butt out. Good luck with the meeting and I wish him well.

cormie

Thanks again for all the input folks.

I'm surprised however, that I'm being advised to turn down business and concentrate on one speciality. I'm finding it hard to see the sense in that as it would then greatly limit the amount of work I'd be getting. The jobs I'm asked to quote on do vary greatly, but I generally quote on them the same way and it means I'm ALWAYS making money when the van is on the road.

I wouldn't say I'm a glorified courier, I'd more say I'm a highly reliable and reputable man with a van. I have no problems telling customers that they may be able to get a cheaper service elsewhere and this is exactly what I'd do if somebody came to me looking for something small delivered. I even tell customers that my prices currently start from €85 for the first hour so moving something even as big as a single bed down the road may seem a little excessive at this price. On the other hand, you can fill quite a lot into a van to move and have it loaded and unloaded within an hour so €85 for this is much better value. I charge based on a dedicated van load service and domestic moves within Ireland are generally charge based on time, where a lot of pre-planning etc is required before a long distance multi drop and collect job, I can give a per mile price. For international moves I'd give a fixed price.

Whatever price I give, I'm pricing ensuring I'm always making a profit and it's worth my while doing. There's been the rare case I'd give a fixed price for a job to London for example thinking I'll find something for the return journey if it's booked enough in advance and I didn't manage to secure anything and didn't make any profit, but that's very rare. I have template email replies that I often send in response to quotes which I can't offer a competitive price on and explain this. I don't ever fear as being labelled a rip off as I make sure to explain how I charge and suggest an alternative if my service doesn't suit.

One important thing is that I don't necessarily want to grow my business. I'm not sure if I'm the right person to do that. I want to get it to a stage where I can put it in safe hands so what I've built has it's potential realised. I'm now at the stage that I've overworked myself so much that I need to put my health, mental and physical before profit even if it means I miss out on a big cut of the profit. I have other ideas I want to pursue that are closer to what I'm passionate and interested in. It's very hard to be passionate about moving peoples stuff, people don't get excited about a removals company It will be a gamble of course. Perhaps I'm losing out on earning far more on my next venture the more I delay it, perhaps it won't work out and I'll fall on hard times, but it's something that's on my mind the whole time, it's time to move on.

uck51js9zml2yt

Personly i think your spot on in not turning down business.
Transport is tough enough as it is without having a van (and men) sitting idle and costing you money
The one thing that struck me doing my CPC was the number of owner drivers making a loss on jobs just to get the job. A recipe for disaster.
It was something I never let my contractors do when they worked for me.

pedronomix

Antoinolochtnai hit the nail on the head when he said your business name described your service. You are not a parcel courier, you are not a house mover/relocation operation, yet for a price you can be these things and many more..office... computer..piano..whatever...end-to-end bespoke transport provider. You USP is that you know how to do it and can excecute the plan, the customer trust and repeat/referral business builds from this fundamental. Bad customer experiences with low ball priced competitors serve to underpin your position.
The business will have to grow to sustain the model you aspire to but if you do not wish to be at the centre of it going forward, get out now and move forward with what it is you actually want to do. Notions of having your cake and eating it are beyond reach in this kind of service business. The value of the business is what someone is prepared to pay for it and completely disconnected to the time,effort or money you have put into it.
You need to have a meeting with yourself, set aside hopes, dreams and aspirations and focus on the realities. Only then can you hope to make sound decisions. I can help with the process but only you can decide. When I decided to shut up shop, it was the hardest decision of my life, it was also the best and most liberating and now I own my life! The perceived loss of "My life's work", pride, peer esteem, etc etc is a huge mental barrier to moving on, but you soon learn that it is not your business that defines you, the person.

cormie

Yep, this industry is awash with guys who will undercut competitors just to get a job and make pretty much nothing off it. AnyVan and other similar sites are a great place to get competitive quotes for moves. I don't generally compete with the prices offered here as the vetting process employed for the likes of insurance cover and general legitimacy is not particularly stringent and in the same way a consumer may not be fully aware of who they are hiring, I wouldn't be aware of who I'm competing with. I've seen some pretty crazy quotes being offered which after fuel, insurance and all other costs (not forgetting the websites cut), would leave the drivers struggling to even make minimum wage and that's before even taking the operating and maintenance costs of running such a business into consideration.

Due to the nature of such websites, there's always going to be a stream of operators offering their service, so anyone who succumbs to the realisation of investment, will be replaced by fresh enthusiasm and ever competitive quotes.

pedronomix, reading the above about you shutting up shop actually got me excited :pac: Unfortunately I haven't gotten myself to a stage where I have any security. If I had a mortgage paid off and owned my own abode, a load of savings , inheritance prospects for the future and everything else that would mean it's just a case of losing a source of income but I'd still have a roof over my head and enough to keep me fed it would be much easier and I probably would have done it by now even. That's where the tough decision is. I've built this to a stage where I can make a living off it but I've other aspirations and ambitions.

pedronomix

I fear you missed the points I was trying to make
1. If you do not grow the business, your work/life balance will remain as is.
2. It is highly unlikely that this kind of business could ever support a hands-off owner., perhaps even survive.
3. If you are unable to commit, get out, and do what it is you want to do. I never suggested you could retire, however attractive that notion may be to you. I made my decision based on my own circumstances, resources and am lucky to be able to occupy my autumnal years in a manner of my choosing. That I no longer have ambition for "more" rather simplifies matters.
4. The key to taking control of your life is based on making decisions and choices of your own with your eyes wide open as to realistic outcomes. You need to start with a primary objective and then formulate a plan focussed on that.

cormie

Thanks again pedronomix, thankfully I'm not that delusional to think you were suggesting I could retire. Would be nice but we have to be realistic

I agree that supporting a hands off owner would be very difficult to achieve. It would be nice to keep a small slice of the profit, even 5%, but again I haven't a clue how achievable this would be.

There's a husband and wife running the same type of business in another part of the country. The husband is out in the van and the wife deals with the calls, emails and office work. It seems to work very well for them and I think it would be a great undertaking for any 2 people who knew and could trust eachother well. It's definitely too much for one person to do as I've been doing for years and severely limits the opportunities that can be achieved and the possibility for growth. But in the hands of 2 people working well together it would have much better potential.

I'd be very wary of going it alone for any future endeavours as I think having someone to bounce ideas off, kick you into action and of course share the responsibilities is very valuable.

antoinolachtnai

Can't you just employ or contract some people to drive a van whilst you stay in the office? Eventually get someone to do the admin and sales in the office and concentrate on the marketing yourself.

I realise this brings us back to where we began. But maybe it is getting clearer what you need the 'double' to actually do.

jimmii

It definitely helps having a partner especially on bad days! Is a partner definitely out of the question? Even bringing in someone with a minimal stake just enough to make them feel important but still leaving you in control. That could bring in enough to invest in additional marketing or upgrade the vehicles etc and then you could make it clear that in the long term if things go well they could take over the business with you keeping a minority share. Having that incentive of possibly taking over should give them the motivation to help maintain the reputation you have for customer service which looking at your feedback online is very high. As you know my wife has started looking into the logistics of us moving and she found your site and communication a lot better than the others so you're clearly doing things right just need someone else to buy into that and help you out!

cormie

Yeah I think that's definitely the best approach. As has been mentioned, it should be easy to find somebody to do the driving and labour and if I can find the right person to do the admin and sales well that's most of the hurdle jumped. It's also been mentioned that I like to use the international jobs as a chance to get away and that's definitely true too, I enjoy the little adventures and exploring new cities while I'm there and I guess I find it hard to justify paying somebody to do it for me when I enjoy it myself.:o


EDIT: Jimmii, just saw your reply after I posted mine, a partner is definitely something I'd consider. It's just how to find the right person. I have someone in mind and they actually seemed interested, but they live quite far away with their family and I'm not sure if it's something they'd want to do for the long term and if it got to the stage of them taking over, they'd definitely need to be in Dublin for taking care of the vans, meeting drivers, general presence etc.

jimmii

The obvious answer is go find yourself a wife with admin experience and a good phone/email manner sorted! Then maybe hire a driver to take boxes of papers from Swords to storage in Clondalkin while you take care of models moving from Milan to London!

pedronomix

pedronomix wrote: »

Cormie and I are to meet next week. He has written homework to prepare, limited to a single A4 page first! P

No word(s) from Cormie!!

cormie

Sorry Pedro, I'm half way through and will be finishing it off in the morning and send it on to you. I want to make sure I'm doing it right to make the most of the time meeting

pedronomix

Cormie delivered by email today and a decent piece of work it is too, exactly what I requested! Good start, we meet early next week.....hope I can add some real value for him!

cormie

I'm very surprised you're happy with what I sent. I felt the presentation could have been much better and it may have been lacking information, that's my ocd and perfectionism kicking in but I didn't want to delay it further.

I think I've decided I definitely want to move on from this and pursue other ventures to the point I'm not involved in the day to day running of it. So I think the goal now is to achieve that while leaving it in good hands and if I can get even a small % stake kept in it even better.

It's definitely not a sensible decision in terms of my own security as I could easily make a living off this and probably get mortgage approval and all the rest of the societal norms if I kept going with it, but I think I'd be left with regrets if I did that.

antoinolachtnai

If I were you, from what I know, and knowing where the economic cycle is, I would try to grow the model you have designed to 30 or so vans. I think that opportunity is there, but I suppose you fell there might be a better opportunity that you can pursue.

Holding a small shareholding in a business you aren't directly involved in is always a mess. I would try to sell it with a short enough handover period.

pedronomix

cormie wrote: »

I'm very surprised you're happy with what I sent. I felt the presentation could have been much better and it may have been lacking information, that's my ocd and perfectionism kicking in but I didn't want to delay it further.

I think I've decided I definitely want to move on from this and pursue other ventures to the point I'm not involved in the day to day running of it. So I think the goal now is to achieve that while leaving it in good hands and if I can get even a small % stake kept in it even better.

It's definitely not a sensible decision in terms of my own security as I could easily make a living off this and probably get mortgage approval and all the rest of the societal norms if I kept going with it, but I think I'd be left with regrets if I did that.

If this is what you want to do, and it is your call 100%, based on the info you shared with me, your aspiration is pure fantasy. I however am not prepared to waste my declining years chasing rainbows. Soo many pedestrians... soo little time!

pedronomix

Well that little foot stomp brought it all to a grinding halt, telling in itself!

cormie

Thanks for the replies. There's definitely a lot of guys out there doing the same thing. It's tough to tell how many are making a decent living from it so I'm not sure how easy it would be to keep 30 guys and their vans busy. Would require a lot more sales work. The branding and model might be attractive but I'm not sure what drivers would be willing to sacrifice for this.

pedro, I'm not sure if you're saying you're not prepared to meet anymore? Hopefully not, I'd appreciate even your harshest reality checking of it.

antoinolachtnai

It's not a matter of sacrifice. It's a matter of what the consumer wants.

The way you get thirty vans on the road is easy. 1. The economy expands creating more work. 2. The effectiveness of an internet based model puts traditional one-van operators out of business. You are the vehicle for consolidation.

30 vans really isn't much. How many man + van operators are there in total in Dublin and east of Enfield?

If you can't get to 30 vans your hopes for a future dividend income from the business, or selling it for a significant amount are just that.

cormie

Thanks again for that. I'll post back again after I meet with Peter as I need to get my head around everything on the table here

cormie

Just to post back for an update. Had a very helpful and much appreciated meeting with pedronomix and he seemed very much in favour of my plan should I sell the business, to go off for 6 months and do nothing :P

I've also spoken to a few others since including a meeting with one potential buyer, as well as having approached some operators in the same industry to see if they would have any interest.

I think the next step is to put together a sales pitch for the business itself, even just to test the water for now and see if there's much interest.

This is all being driven from the fact I have other ideas I'd like to pursue and although it was suggested I could do this while still earning the bread and butter through vantasks, from another point of view, I think I'd rather be completely free of the responsibilities of vantasks to put my full concentration into new projects and also to get that head space I long for.

It was also suggested to get rid of some of the vans before selling, which looking at the figures (or rather pedronomix looking at the figures for me), I think is a wise choice, plus my insurance for them which has been steady the last 5 years shot up to over double this year It is handy having them all, especially for storage as my own place is tiny, but they are another responsibility at the same time.

If I didn't have the desire and passion for these other ideas, I'd definitely be looking at taking on staff and making a proper go at this, with help and not doing everything by myself as I still believe it has the potential to provide a decent living for anyone involved if it's managed well. I definitely feel although it's a bad decision for my security and financial situation, it's the best decision for my health and well-being and I view these things with far greater importance than any material or monetary possession. Between selling up and a bit of savings, I'll have more money than I've ever had and although it may not be much, I'm debt free and have come from having no savings and having to borrow money off friends to start vantasks, so this could be a far easier starting point for something new and I've a lot more experience now too.

So I guess my main challenge now is to find somebody who can continue to run it well as I'd hate to see it fall apart and to let myself off the hook with the responsibilities and to hopefully be able to get a decent enough price for it. If I can manage all 3, job done

pedroeibar1

I knew he would sort you out! Best of luck with the new directipon.

pedronomix

Cormie is a smashing chap, so open and straightforward. His personality is clearly a big help in winning business. He loves this baby but just hates the work!! He has no commitments, so now is the time to follow his dream. A good sales prospectus for the business could nett him the kind of money he has in mind but my guess was little over asset value. He can call on me anytime for help with the prospectus and the sale process itself, just because I really like the guy!

cormie

Thanks a lot for that Pedro, really helpful to know

A little update, of course, finding it hard to get away from this, actually the previous 4-5 weeks has probably been my busiest to date. To put it in perspective, over a period of 20 days, I made 80% of the figure Pedro was saying he thinks somebody might offer me based on previous accounts, which makes it really hard to justify selling it for anywhere near that sum. There were expenses from that too, but the sales>purchase ratio is getting a lot better, as expected I was expecting it to.

I've also increased my prices and structured them a little more sensibly (charging a higher per hour price for the bigger van etc). I had a big increase in insurance costs (more than double what I was paying) and it's gone from about 4.3% of annual spending to 9% but other costs are going to be much lower from here on. I'm also thinking to put a "prices starting from €85" badge on the site to cut down on the amount of calls for people thinking I'm going to compete with the hundreds of "man with van" classifieds.

Another big thing, which I just got wind of yesterday, is I got a call from a recruitment agency who provide drivers/porters to several businesses doing the same thing and they are apparently well trained and experienced in this work. Each man is €14.20+ vat per hour and it's timed from the moment he gets in my van to start the day to the moment he leaves the van to finish his day. It's more than what I usually pay my guys, but I was told men can be arranged if you ring before 3pm the day before you need them. This could be a great way to go about the complications with getting drivers with the hours I have for them. They are employees of the recruitment agency who take care of all the taxes etc and just send me an invoice.

I'm thinking between this and maybe getting someone to manage the calls, emails and getting the labour organised and possibly doing a profit share or commission based sales approach for this manager, I could greatly reduce my day to day responsibilities. I'd still have full ownership and would be on hand to advise, but at least I could plan my days and not have every little thing I do distracted, which is how it is at the moment.