Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014/15

Chucky the tree

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Eh:

- Balotelli wasn't that bad. He didn't do brilliantly every time he got it obv, but he made some positive contributions and was certainly trying;
- Gerrard was clearly left on for delivery from set pieces. He did put in some great balls from same during extra time but we couldn't quite capitalise;
- Gerrard and Lucas were clearly knackered by the end;
- We clearly need a striker;

All of his positive contributions were immediatly wiped out when he tried to chip Courtois from that ridiculous angle instead of actually providing us with a chance to score by putting the ball into the box. That whole move sums up Ballotelli - he's selfish, always will be, and generally doesn't seem to give a **** if we win or lose.


I was absolutely raging as soon as he did it. Even the players reaction said it all. Not one person looked to give him a bollocking because they know it's pointless. He's never going to change and he's no even close to being good enough to get away with that kind of a selfish attitude.

BoardsMember

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Why do people think Balotelli has so much talent? Apart from penalties his scoring rate isnt great, his assist rate is worse and his work rate is worse than that. He has consistently proven over the years, at every club he's been to, that he doesnt seem to give a sh*t. Once, in the Italy-germany semi final a few years back where he scored a corker and ran germany ragged did he reach any sort of level approaching international class...since then? Nada.

Excellent question. And answer.

If someone plays like sh*t, behaves like sh*t, has a sh*t work rate, has a sh*t overall contribution, has sh*t football brain....then they are probably sh*t, and probably not really talented.

jem

NukaCola wrote: »

We signed a "Cnut" in the summer in the form of MB......turned out he was a useless cnut......

Unfair on that word which is useful

monkey9

Diego Costa is the kind of player you'd love if he was at your club, but I have to say I have no particular dislike of him. When he behaves the way he does against your own club, then you get annoyed of course and he'll deserve the ban that's surely coming his way.

But overall, I think he's entertaining and I do like the way he puts himself about. He fights for his team. It can go overboard at times but he's quality player so you'd put up with him.

PRAF

monkey9 wrote: »

Diego Costa is the kind of player you'd love if he was at your club, but I have to say I have no particular dislike of him. When he behaves the way he does against your own club, then you get annoyed of course and he'll deserve the ban that's surely coming his way.

But overall, I think he's entertaining and I do like the way he puts himself about. He fights for his team. It can go overboard at times but he's quality player so you'd put up with him.

Which is why Rodgers tried to buy him in 2013. Pity that deal didn't come off (Costa played us like fools to get a better contract from Atleti if I recall correctly.

jem

I wonder did we actually pat the 16m for mario last summer. There was a comment a few days ago from BR that they would look at his situation in the summer. There was a roomer at the time that there was the option to send him back at the end of the year if it didnt work out.
Pity the way it hasn't worked. , there is the basis there for a true world star but I think he got too much praise too young and didn't work on his game enough thinking he had made it, listening to the hype. So he didn't develop into the player he could have been and it is too late now. sad in a way.

Do think it is a worry for BR if no-one signed in Jan. looks like owners not sure if he will be there next season.

PRAF

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Why do people think Balotelli has so much talent? Apart from penalties his scoring rate isnt great, his assist rate is worse and his work rate is worse than that. He has consistently proven over the years, at every club he's been to, that he doesnt seem to give a sh*t. Once, in the Italy-germany semi final a few years back where he scored a corker and ran germany ragged did he reach any sort of level approaching international class...since then? Nada.

I don't think many people in football doubt his talent. However, talent alone is not enough. Rodgers obviously thought, or was convinced by someone, that he could up his workrate and improve his attitude so that Balo would finally start delivering on his talent.

It hasn't worked out so far, that's for sure.

Nerdlingr

PRAF wrote: »

I don't think many people in football doubt his talent. However, talent alone is not enough. Rodgers obviously thought, or was convinced by someone, that he could up his workrate and improve his attitude so that Balo would finally start delivering on his talent.

It hasn't worked out so far, that's for sure.

But when has he shown he has got this 'talent' ? Thats my question. People say "oh he's so much talent, what a waste"...When have we actually seen him bully defenders, beat one or two players & score goals, lay on goals for others, change games, have an impact in games, show flashes of skill with an end product??

poolboy

Balotelli offers nothing and cares less. I hate seeing him in a Liverpool Jersey would take anything to get rid of him now. His presence in the squad cannot be good look at the effort every player put in over two legs and in the last few months in general and then imagine being one of those players and looking at that lazy stupid **** getting game time.
Re Costa I think the big difference between him and Suarez is that while Saurez was no doubt a scourge for opposition players and did some disgusting things on the field I don't think he ever set out to cause serious injury on a player like Costa did last night twice, he's a great player letting himself down by being a scumbag and a coward.

Turtyturd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Eh:

- Balotelli wasn't that bad. He didn't do brilliantly every time he got it obv, but he made some positive contributions and was certainly trying;
;

All stuff Joe Allen does and gets abused for.

For 16M I'd want more than just trying.

It's nearly February and the chap has one goal. I hate even seeing him on the bench as it means there's a chance he might come on.

5starpool

rarnes1 wrote: »

For 16M I'd want more than just trying.

It's nearly February and the chap has one goal. I hate even seeing him on the bench as it means there's a chance he might come on.

Don't exaggerate.

He has 2 goals.

noodler

Delighted to see the tide of opinion finally change.

PRAF

Nerdlingr wrote: »

But when has he shown he has got this 'talent' ? Thats my question. People say "oh he's so much talent, what a waste"...When have we actually seen him bully defenders, beat one or two players & score goals, lay on goals for others, change games, have an impact in games, show flashes of skill with an end product??

Euro 2012 spring to mind. 90 career goals while playing for either Serie A or EPL teams is not bad either (over a 237 games). 13 in 33 for Italy is also pretty good.

However, you have a point. He's not an especially skillful dribbler, not a great link up merchant, etc. His 'talent' is more around clinical finishing in and around the box. Unfortunately, he hasn't really shown that for LFC. Shame

5starpool

5starpool wrote: »

Don't exaggerate.

He has 2 goals.

Give him a new contract!!

Harry Palmr

I have drawn a line under the season up till this point. We are now in the Sturridge era, when Coutinhos play will result in goals, Sterling will get tap ins from the Studge, when Ballotelli will come to life and Lucas will announce he is growing his hair back Johnson will refuse to sign a lower wage deal.

5starpool

I'm heading over to the West Ham game on Saturday. Hopefully there will have been enough recovery time for their legs anyhow, and Sturridge will make a comeback, even from the bench. It's the first game I've actually been at this season. The last game I was at was vs Chelsea and 'that' slip

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

5starpool wrote: »

Don't exaggerate.

He has 2 goals.

Two? Whend he get the second?

SlickRic

delighted with how the team has been applying itself recently.

i don't like how vulnerable we continue to be from set-pieces, and this something that i don't see changing any time soon.

the main issue though is the business in the summer. it just can't be escaped and shouldn't be forgotten. we had the chance to strike, and we blew it, going all-out on a policy throwing money at "could bes" rather than "right nows". the striker situation is a prime example.

Balotelli was always a gamble; one i was willing to take, but not something to pin your hopes on. essentially we went into the season (post-transfer window), with an injury prone Sturridge, a wild gamble in Balotelli, a broken docket in Borini, and a back up option at best in Lambert.

appalling.

it's a miracle that we've such a talented player in Sterling that can somewhat cover for this, but it's been too much for him. he can't carry our goal threat on his own, he just can't, and it's scandalous that he's in the position that he's in at 20 years of age, with barely 60 starts and 100 in total, in senior football under his belt.

Agent Coulson

Mignolet with a consistent defence in front of him shows he is a decent keeper

A consistent defence with a defensive midfielder in front of them are better.

The team with a defensive midfielder is better all over.

Who would have thought that eh!

monkey9

poolboy wrote: »

Balotelli offers nothing and cares less. I hate seeing him in a Liverpool Jersey would take anything to get rid of him now. His presence in the squad cannot be good look at the effort every player put in over two legs and in the last few months in general and then imagine being one of those players and looking at that lazy stupid **** getting game time.
Re Costa I think the big difference between him and Suarez is that while Saurez was no doubt a scourge for opposition players and did some disgusting things on the field I don't think he ever set out to cause serious injury on a player like Costa did last night twice, he's a great player letting himself down by being a scumbag and a coward.

Ah now, Suarez did put in a few dangerous tackles in fairness. His trick was he'd put his arm up immediately as if it was accidental.

Ferris_Bueller

SlickRic wrote: »

the main issue though is the business in the summer. it just can't be escaped and shouldn't be forgotten. we had the chance to strike, and we blew it, going all-out on a policy throwing money at "could bes" rather than "right nows". the striker situation is a prime example.

Balotelli was always a gamble; one i was willing to take, but not something to pin your hopes on. essentially we went into the season (post-transfer window), with an injury prone Sturridge, a wild gamble in Balotelli, a broken docket in Borini, and a back up option at best in Lambert.

It's easy to say this now though, before the season started you could have said we were going in with one of the best strikers in the world, a worthwhile gamble, a player who just had a good season with Sunderland and Lambert who just enjoyed a good year with Norwich.

You're correct that these options were probably never good enough if we were trying to fill a gap left by Suarez though. I think at the time pretty much everyone agreed Balotelli was a worthwhile signing for the price, if he had of come good then he would have been worth more than £16m and if he didn't then we could probably ship him on for close to £16m again. It has been frustrating that he has been so poor and Sturridge has been injured but at the time he didn't seem like the worst signing.

We're in a position now though where 3 of our 4 strikers need to be shipped out and as a result we're actually better off playing with no striker, hopefully Sturridge can find his old form again, either way a new striker should be brought in this window (they won't be) or at the latest the summer.

kfallon

poolboy wrote: »

Balotelli offers nothing and cares less. I hate seeing him in a Liverpool Jersey would take anything to get rid of him now. His presence in the squad cannot be good look at the effort every player put in over two legs and in the last few months in general and then imagine being one of those players and looking at that lazy stupid **** getting game time.
Re Costa I think the big difference between him and Suarez is that while Saurez was no doubt a scourge for opposition players and did some disgusting things on the field I don't think he ever set out to cause serious injury on a player like Costa did last night twice, he's a great player letting himself down by being a scumbag and a coward.

Costa is no worse than Suarez! I think the guy is a legend and would love him at Liverpool!

He's just the new pantomine villain in the Premier League, the man to replace Suarez as the player everyone loves to hate. Brilliant player and takes no shít from anyone, tough as old boots, an old skool CF!

NukaCola

noodler wrote: »

Delighted to see the tide of opinion finally change.

I dont think its something to be proud of. I mean, most people were willing to give him a chance and hoped it would work. Others like yourself wouldn't even afford him that chance. Its as bad as Chelsea fans booing Rafa before his first game. Football fans eh......

MonkeyTennis

Whether you like him or not is irrelevant man

NukaCola

kfallon wrote: »

Costa is no worse than Suarez! I think the guy is a legend and would love him at Liverpool!

He's just the new pantomine villain in the Premier League, the man to replace Suarez as the player everyone loves to hate. Brilliant player and takes no shít from anyone, tough as old boots, an old skool CF!

Thats the most loose definition of legend I have ever read.

kop77

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Mignolet with a consistent defence in front of him shows he is a decent keeper

A consistent defence with a defensive midfielder in front of them are better.

The team with a defensive midfielder is better all over.

Who would have thought that eh!

true...

if Lucas does go in the summer along with Gerrard what would everyone think of Can as a DM and play alongside Henderson...

Magico Gonzalez

The point is none of the players we wanted to replace Suarez with wanted to come here. That's the cold hard reality.

Obviously with Suarez leaving we would be weaker and have less chances of Champs league qualification.

Obviously we are behind the curve with our stadium development, i.e matchday income.

Obviously our qualification record for the Champs league is not impressive.

Obviously we don't have a league title win in decades. Really, big name players do not give a shyte about FA cups, much less poxy league cups. Something for the fans to cling to, nothing else.

City, Arsenal and Spurs all have advantages over us in those departments.

We are simply not competitive in the "right now" market.

The striker situation was badly handled, but we were trumped by Arsenal for Sanchez. He clearly stated his preference. That's the reality of that situation, Liverpool did not appeal. Buying Origi on a 1 year loan was a mistake, if we wanted potential we should have went for someone how would have come in this year and helped out. Balotelli was daft, plain daft, I agree. Not sure who we could have got though?

Speak Now

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

The point is none of the players we wanted to replace Suarez with wanted to come here. That's the cold hard reality.

Obviously with Suarez leaving we would be weaker and have less chances of Champs league qualification.

Obviously we are behind the curve with our stadium development, i.e matchday income.

Obviously our qualification record for the Champs league is not impressive.

Obviously we don't have a league title win in decades. Really, big name players do not give a shyte about FA cups, much less poxy league cups. Something for the fans to cling to, nothing else.

City, Arsenal and Spurs all have advantages over us in those departments.

We are simply not competitive in the "right now" market.

The striker situation was badly handled, but we were trumped by Arsenal for Sanchez. He clearly stated his preference. That's the reality of that situation, Liverpool did not appeal. Buying Origi on a 1 year loan was a mistake, if we wanted potential we should have went for someone how would have come in this year and helped out. Balotelli was daft, plain daft, I agree. Not sure who we could have got though?

Spurs???

kfallon

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

The point is none of the players we wanted to replace Suarez with wanted to come here. That's the cold hard reality.

Obviously with Suarez leaving we would be weaker and have less chances of Champs league qualification.

Obviously we are behind the curve with our stadium development, i.e matchday income.

Obviously our qualification record for the Champs league is not impressive.

Obviously we don't have a league title win in decades. Really, big name players do not give a shyte about FA cups, much less poxy league cups. Something for the fans to cling to, nothing else.

You are spot on there......obviously :pac:

Harry Palmr

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

The striker situation was badly handled, but we were trumped by Arsenal for Sanchez. He clearly stated his preference. That's the reality of that situation, Liverpool did not appeal. Buying Origi on a 1 year loan was a mistake, if we wanted potential we should have went for someone how would have come in this year and helped out. Balotelli was daft, plain daft, I agree. Not sure who we could have got though?

Could have got Charlie Austin Nah there were a few out there - Kevin Volland, Roberto Firmino, Alexandre Lacazette, Icardi , Mandžukić who could have been got with a serious bid.

5starpool

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Two? Whend he get the second?

Ludogorets and Swansea in the League Cup.

noodler

NukaCola wrote: »

I dont think its something to be proud of. I mean, most people were willing to give him a chance and hoped it would work. Others like yourself wouldn't even afford him that chance. Its as bad as Chelsea fans booing Rafa before his first game. Football fans eh......

Ah that is a total misrepresentation.


People are criticising him now for the same non-talent related reasons I have been criticisng him for since October / November.

Namely, lack of effort, selfishness, damaging team spirit etc.

These things were apparent well before he signed for Liverpool, never mind in the three months to November he was here, if it took you this long to realise it than perhaps you should wonder whether you gave him a chance or were you simply utterly naive and willing to support anything wearing a red jersey no mater what.

Gbear

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

We made plenty of good chances over the two legs in fairness. More than enough really but a combination of poor finishing and Courtois meant we only had one goal to show for it.

You're always going to cock up a certain % of chances but our play in the box is woeful in terms of execution of passes and decision-making.

It's grand saying we created 6 or 7 good chances but they would only be good chances if the person taking the effort can reliably put them away. Even if Sturridge is on the pitch, he won't be the one getting those chances all the time.

We're not making many left back goals, DM goals - goals that any ****ing eejit who happens to have found himself in the box can put away.

Easy chances aren't a unilateral thing - they require good play on and off the ball - so a striker who knows his **** will make them happen more often.

This is where I want to see Lallana step up. Maybe for Gerrard. Maybe even for Coutinho.
There's lots of lovely play going on outside the opponents box but a lot of it seems pretty futile. At a certain point it's worth sacrificing some of the chicanery for someone who can stick a bloody ball in the back of the net.

Agent Coulson

The lastest "Wonderkid" linked is 17 year old Porto midfielder Ruben Neves. (From the Mirror)

Benzino

Chucky the tree wrote: »

All of his positive contributions were immediatly wiped out when he tried to chip Courtois from that ridiculous angle instead of actually providing us with a chance to score by putting the ball into the box. That whole move sums up Ballotelli - he's selfish, always will be, and generally doesn't seem to give a **** if we win or lose.


I was absolutely raging as soon as he did it. Even the players reaction said it all. Not one person looked to give him a bollocking because they know it's pointless. He's never going to change and he's no even close to being good enough to get away with that kind of a selfish attitude.

If that's the case, why isn't Lambert getting the same criticism. His last shot was just as bad, if not even worse then that Balo shot.

I thought Balotelli did alright when he came on, a good few nice flicks which created space and opportunities for Sterling and Coutinho.

Gbear

It's pretty obvious that Balotelli gets nowhere near the latitude of some of our other players for making the same mistakes.

He didn't do any worse up front than any of our other players last night.

You can go on about work rate and pressing but that doesn't put the ball in the net.

There seems to be a lot of theory that supports trusting the likes of Coutinho and Sterling - they work hard, play some nice football around midfield and all that good stuff - but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and they aren't productive enough in the current set up.

Balotelli looks the most dangerous of all the attackers we have available. That's saying **** all mind you but needs must.

If Rodgers is punishing him for his work in training then I can't argue with that. But if it's down to "style" or whatever, you need to give a player with the talent of Balotelli a chance in the team. Not 5 minutes here and there - a sustained chance.

Coutinho and Sterling are given plenty of room to try **** that doesn't come off and would never come off. Balotelli gets ****ing eviscerated when he does it.

I'm not pretending he's good, but our other options are so poor in the final third that, ignoring the unknown goings on on the training pitch, Balotelli needs to be given a proper go or just sold now because what's the ****ing point in pretending that he's part of the team if you have no intention of playing him?

Are we that eager to continue pissing his wages down the toilet for no reason?

Utopia Parkway

Gbear wrote: »

Balotelli looks the most dangerous of all the attackers we have available.

???????

Sorry but that's just not true. I'd say he's well down the list of our most dangerous attackers albeit himself, Lambert and Borini are all much of a muchness. I think it's Ballotelli's selfishness and horrendous decision in attacking positions that annoys people more than the others even though Lambert was guilty of the same last night.

T-K-O

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

???????

What he means is, Mario is his favourite.

MonkeyTennis

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Whether you like him or not is irrelevant man

Nobody? :(

Nerdlingr

Benzino wrote: »

If that's the case, why isn't Lambert getting the same criticism. His last shot was just as bad, if not even worse then that Balo shot.

Yeah. Lambert's was just as bad if not worse. (Its just that Mario has previous) I was f*cking bulling with him after it. He's meant to be our experienced striker and he does THAT with a minute to go in the game. Horrible glory-hunting decision.

Magico Gonzalez

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Could have got Charlie Austin Nah there were a few out there - Kevin Volland, Roberto Firmino, Alexandre Lacazette, Icardi , Mandžukić who could have been got with a serious bid.

That's another wish list of "potential" & "players not for sale"

I don't really rate Icardi, he is miles from the Argentine team for example, who preferred to take unfit players and palacio to the WC. He's a complete headcase as well, his personal life and wife are somewhat hectic too. If ever there was a glamour loving couple who wouldn't move to the NW of England, it Icardi and Wanda Nara. Lacazette was not for sale, and continues to be, not for sale. At the end of this season he might go to a club who can offer consistant champs league qualification and league challenges. That hasn't been us for many a year.

noodler

Gbear wrote: »

It's pretty obvious that Balotelli gets nowhere near the latitude of some of our other players for making the same mistakes.

He didn't do any worse up front than any of our other players last night.

You can go on about work rate and pressing but that doesn't put the ball in the net.

There seems to be a lot of theory that supports trusting the likes of Coutinho and Sterling - they work hard, play some nice football around midfield and all that good stuff - but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and they aren't productive enough in the current set up.

Balotelli looks the most dangerous of all the attackers we have available. That's saying **** all mind you but needs must.

If Rodgers is punishing him for his work in training then I can't argue with that. But if it's down to "style" or whatever, you need to give a player with the talent of Balotelli a chance in the team. Not 5 minutes here and there - a sustained chance.

Coutinho and Sterling are given plenty of room to try **** that doesn't come off and would never come off. Balotelli gets ****ing eviscerated when he does it.

I'm not pretending he's good, but our other options are so poor in the final third that, ignoring the unknown goings on on the training pitch, Balotelli needs to be given a proper go or just sold now because what's the ****ing point in pretending that he's part of the team if you have no intention of playing him?

Are we that eager to continue pissing his wages down the toilet for no reason?

Theres an incredible amount of sweeping under the carpet in that post.

Suffice to say, effort stops goals going in (like last night), not being selfish from ridiculous positions makes the team more productive etc...and thats only from last night.

The other players you speak of in that post are on a different planet to Mario and comparing their first three/six months in the first team with his will show this. Trying to throw him in with the likes of Sterling and Coutinho in any way is to try and hide his woeful characteristics as a professional footballer and does an enormous disservice to the two lads above who genuinely try even when the end product isn't there.

Even leaving aside for a moment the different stages Cout and Sterling are at in their careers to where Mario is/should be at.

Magico Gonzalez

Balotelli hasn't got the composure, possibly emotional intelligence to handle the pressure.

He did show some nice link up play, but when the chance fell to him he blaired it up into the stands. Comically predictable. I really didn't expect him to hit the target, no one did. That's simply not on for 16m. He's a poor finisher right now, and that's fundamentally not good enough.

Lambert, for a fraction of this price is marginally better, but nowhere near good enough.

Someone needed to get hold of Gerrard last night and tell him to cool it with the hero routine, plenty of opportunities to pass when he let loose with weak shots. Not smart. He was clearly struggling with the pace, playing him on into extra time was madness.

Boom_Bap

If I had the chances as Balotelli has at LFC, I'd have a better goal tally*.

And I could be pretty sure that I could beat his massive haul of 1 assist of his career in England.*

Bold statment to make,but he has missed sitters and has missed up on oppertunities of a simple pass.

I'd love to see him flouish, but how many chances does he need?

I've also said it before that he would probably work well with Sturridge, so we may see some return from him there.


*this may not be true.

Gbear

T-K-O wrote: »

What he means is, Mario is his favourite.

I hate his stupid runs, I hate the way he stupidly dithers around the edge of the box. I hate how poor he is in front of goal for a forward. I hate the oblivious look he has on his face after someone ****s him out of it for being in the wrong place.

But Sterling and Coutinho are as dangerous in front of goal as a pair of toasted cheese sandwiches.

Lallana is the first port of call but he's been in and out with injuries.

Unless something utterly wild happens I want Balotelli ****ed out of the club the day the transfer window opens in the summer and replaced with someone who actually fits the team.

But in the mean time we may as well be getting our bloody money's worth and I think we could do with a bit less reverence for the pretty failure of our current crop of attackers. Yes they're working hard, yes they're playing some nice football and in the right system they could be lethal.

But not this system. So we need to try something a little bit different. Not massively. Just a little. Our current form has been built on defence. I don't think Balotelli would cause our game to implode. Especially not when players like Gerrard and Markovic have hardly been indispensable.

jasonb

5starpool wrote: »

I'm heading over to the West Ham game on Saturday. Hopefully there will have been enough recovery time for their legs anyhow, and Sturridge will make a comeback, even from the bench. It's the first game I've actually been at this season. The last game I was at was vs Chelsea and 'that' slip

Jesus, there's a game you'd want wiped from your memory, it went from the potential of being an amazing game to be at, to, well, you know what it went to. You should have gone over sooner just to stop that one being your last one! I managed to get to the Swansea tie and the 1st leg of the Chelsea tie in the Capital One Cup this season, was hoping I might then get to Wembley but that's that for another season.

Really hope we're recovered for Saturday, both physically and mentally. We'd a good chance of a final appearance, but that's gone now and we need to be able to continue the good form in the league...

J.

Vicxas

We're all a little bitter after last night but let's not detract from our positive trend at the moment.

K-9

Benzino wrote: »

If that's the case, why isn't Lambert getting the same criticism. His last shot was just as bad, if not even worse then that Balo shot.

I thought Balotelli did alright when he came on, a good few nice flicks which created space and opportunities for Sterling and Coutinho.

Lambert is getting loads of criticism, stupid thing to do.

Mario was the £16 Million bargain marquee signing though!

OwaynOTT

Mario did a lovely back heel last night, I think that's been overlooked in favour of everything else.