Cutting Edge - The Club - 1994 Documentary

FixdePitchmark

The point I'm making is - if the R&A let this go on - then our children will be next.
SO golf has lost any credibility as they play the euro tour in Dubai in this.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

you can keep showing all the golf trousers in the world, they are still golf trousers and not tracksuits.

PARlance

Smart tracksuit bottoms are already on the golf courses of Ireland imo.

I've a pair of Dwyers Micro Tech.... Ahem trousers. They're tracksuit bottoms but smart ones imo.
They are made from a lightweight polyester material. That's a tracksuit bottom in my eyes.

leonards

Really good doc. Thought the old poetic guy was really good.. Not sure why everyone is now posting pics of crappy loud pants and taking about shell suits...

Kingswood Rover

GreeBo wrote: »

professionalism being part of suitability.
professionalism demonstrated by ability and willingness to dress appropriately.

if you are saying that you never let a candidates appearance form part of your judgement, honestly i flat out dont believe it.

I am judging them on their suitability for the position, yes the way they might dress may have a bearing on how they do but only in the context of the job application process and not their overall character.

GreeBo

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

I am judging them on their suitability for the position, yes the way they might dress may have a bearing on how they do but only in the context of the job application process and not their overall character.

Just as I judge them in the context of the golf course.

Dublin Spur

approaching a stranger on a golf course to ask (tell) them to tuck their shirt in seems to me to be the actions of someone who either:

a) has far too much time on their hands
b) takes themselves far too seriously
c) is just a busy-body muppet
or
d) is a little bit mental

I realise there are some folk like this out there but thankfully they are in the vast minority based on my 30 years experience of playing golf.

In general, I think jeans and tracksuits are inappropriate for golf but I would not feel strongly enough about either item to make an issue of it with any individual.

galwaylad14

I genuinely can't get my head around how some of you get upset and bothered about what someone else is wearing on the golf course.

If you want to dress in a polo and chinos or whatever then that's fine. If someone else wants to wear a Real Madrid Jersey and track suit bottoms then I really can't see how that's any of your business? Live and let live.

I play in tracksuit a good lot of the time when I'm just playing a few holes by myself or whatever. When I'm playing with others or in a competition or whatever I usually try wear "proper" golf clothes but I only do that because I know it bothers other people what I wear so I figure it's just easier to dress the way we're "expected" to dress. But I don't dress that way because I feel it's more appropriate or anything, it doesn't bother me at all how people dress on the golf course once they know the rules and repair pitch marks etc and play at a reasonable pace.

Like I just can't fathom how anyone would get upset about what other people choose to wear ( unless they're wearing speedos or something that leaves nothing to the imagination but I can't see how that's an issue with tracksuit bottoms and a t shirt)

And if someone told me to tuck in my shirt when I'm playing golf I'd just burst out laughing at them and ignore the request and if they asked again I'd tell them where to go

GreeBo

galwaylad14 wrote: »

I genuinely can't get my head around how some of you get upset and bothered about what someone else is wearing on the golf course.

If you want to dress in a polo and chinos or whatever then that's fine. If someone else wants to wear a Real Madrid Jersey and track suit bottoms then I really can't see how that's any of your business? Live and let live.

I play in tracksuit a good lot of the time when I'm just playing a few holes by myself or whatever. When I'm playing with others or in a competition or whatever I usually try wear "proper" golf clothes but I only do that because I know it bothers other people what I wear so I figure it's just easier to dress the way we're "expected" to dress. But I don't dress that way because I feel it's more appropriate or anything, it doesn't bother me at all how people dress on the golf course once they know the rules and repair pitch marks etc and play at a reasonable pace.

Like I just can't fathom how anyone would get upset about what other people choose to wear ( unless they're wearing speedos or something that leaves nothing to the imagination but I can't see how that's an issue with tracksuit bottoms and a t shirt)

And if someone told me to tuck in my shirt when I'm playing golf I'd just burst out laughing at them and ignore the request and if they asked again I'd tell them where to go

Its about respect.
For me your post shows exactly why I gauge someones level of respect by how they turn up on the course. It also shows the respect that you will show to another member who is trying to uphold the rules of the club.

I'm not likely to speak to every other person playing on my course, but I will see most of them. If they are wearing a football jersey and a casual tracksuit and laugh in the face of someone telling them their dress is in appropriate then I'm going to base my opinion on that.

Though in reality its not an issue I face as that person thankfully wouldnt be let onto my course.

Kingswood Rover

The socks over the ankles one really gets me, nice pair of new Nike trainer style golf shoes and then having to wear ankle socks with my shorts. Whats that all about?

GreeBo

Dublin Spur wrote: »

approaching a stranger on a golf course to ask (tell) them to tuck their shirt in seems to me to be the actions of someone who either:

a) has far too much time on their hands
b) takes themselves far too seriously
c) is just a busy-body muppet
or
d) is a little bit mental

I realise there are some folk like this out there but thankfully they are in the vast minority based on my 30 years experience of playing golf.

In general, I think jeans and tracksuits are inappropriate for golf but I would not feel strongly enough about either item to make an issue of it with any individual.

e) upholding the rules of the club?

What if you were a committee member and were observed ignoring a breach of club rules?

dan_ep82

GreeBo wrote: »

e) upholding the rules of the club?

What if you were a committee member and were observed ignoring a breach of club rules?

Meant to get back to this thread sooner but it seems to have moved on a bit.

If you seen a car , or a car driven by a Guard,with a yellow plate (against the law) would you driving would you pull up beside him and tell him to change it,that its against the rules?

Its a similar rule in that it must,and in general is, followed but has no real bearing on driving, the same way an untucked shirt has zero bearing on a round of golf.

GreeBo

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Meant to get back to this thread sooner but it seems to have moved on a bit.

If you seen a car , or a car driven by a Guard,with a yellow plate (against the law) would you driving would you pull up beside him and tell him to change it,that its against the rules?

Its a similar rule in that it must,and in general is, followed but has no real bearing on driving, the same way an untucked shirt has zero bearing on a round of golf.

I think you have twisted my question.
A better example would be, if a guard stopped you for something invalid but having no impact on your driving, would you laugh in his face also?

Dublin Spur

GreeBo wrote: »

e) upholding the rules of the club?

What if you were a committee member and were observed ignoring a breach of club rules?

I would let it slide - some rules are more important than others - in particular something like tucking in a shirt - common sense should be your guide in these matters.

it would be even more surreal if I (as a committee member) was reported for not ordering a golfer to tuck in his shirt - and myself and the offender ended up in the dock

GreeBo

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I would let it slide - some rules are more important than others - in particular something like tucking in a shirt - common sense should be your guide in these matters.

it would be even more surreal if I (as a committee member) was reported for not ordering a golfer to tuck in his shirt - and myself and the offender ended up in the dock

Letting people decide which rules they believe are important and which aren't is anarchy.

Rules are rules, if you want to ignore one get it changed instead, until then respect and adhere to it, or frankly, leave.

Dublin Spur

I wouldn't leave my club because I disagreed with a rule - There's no point throwing the baby out with the bath water - as long as the golf is enjoyable everything else comes a distant 2nd, thankfully there is no tuck rule where I play.

As I said, I think most golfers apply common sense first and foremost. I would expect that there is only a tiny minority of golfers that would challenge anyone over an untucked shirt.

out of curiosity, would you walk over to a group of players on the course and order them to tuck in their shirts if the untucked rule applied in your club ? Genuine question.

GreeBo

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I wouldn't leave my club because I disagreed with a rule - There's no point throwing the baby out with the bath water - as long as the golf is enjoyable everything else comes a distant 2nd, thankfully there is no tuck rule where I play.

As I said, I think most golfers apply common sense first and foremost. I would expect that there is only a tiny minority of golfers that would challenge anyone over an untucked shirt.

out of curiosity, would you walk over to a group of players on the course and order them to tuck in their shirts if the untucked rule applied in your club ? Genuine question.

We have rules exactly because common sense is not common, everyone draws the line somewhere differently.
So we agree on a common line, this far and no further.

Honestly I probably wouldn't notice an untucked shirt, but if it was the rule and said to me I'd obey it.

If I saw someone not replacing their divots, not raking the bunker or parking inconsiderately I'd say that too.
People get away with things because others let them away with them.

galwaylad14

GreeBo wrote: »

Its about respect.
For me your post shows exactly why I gauge someones level of respect by how they turn up on the course. It also shows the respect that you will show to another member who is trying to uphold the rules of the club.

I'm not likely to speak to every other person playing on my course, but I will see most of them. If they are wearing a football jersey and a casual tracksuit and laugh in the face of someone telling them their dress is in appropriate then I'm going to base my opinion on that.

Though in reality its not an issue I face as that person thankfully wouldnt be let onto my course.

So I've no respect because I choose to play in tracksuit bottoms sometimes?

I think you're guilty of some outrageous stereotyping here and like it or not but it's attitudes like this that cause our great game to get a bad reputation as being uppity and snobbish.

And why wouldn't it cause that reputation? You're judging people by how they dress. I'm just not comfortable with that. For me, if they respect the golf course and the people playing on it then they can wear what they like

As someone said earlier, we could rewind the click back 20 years or whatever and replace "women being allowed on the course" with dress code and you could apply your exact same argument about tradition, the rules of the club etc. Does that make it right though?

Dublin Spur

GreeBo wrote: »

We have rules exactly because common sense is not common, everyone draws the line somewhere differently.
So we agree on a common line, this far and no further.

Honestly I probably wouldn't notice an untucked shirt, but if it was the rule and said to me I'd obey it.

If I saw someone not replacing their divots, not raking the bunker or parking inconsiderately I'd say that too.
People get away with things because others let them away with them.

Fair enough, personally I would be of the opinion that rules regarding the care of the course (divots, bunkers, pitch marks etc) are more important than keeping your shirt tucked in, I think it's rare for anyone to apply the same level of importance to all rules. Common sense tends to prevail in most cases.

dan_ep82

GreeBo wrote: »

I think you have twisted my question.
A better example would be, if a guard stopped you for something invalid but having no impact on your driving, would you laugh in his face also?

I think your looking at the wrong quote, I never said I'd laugh in someones face or not follow the rule ?

My post was comparing rules inside the golf course to something outside, a similar situation in terms of seriousness and lack of danger/consequence.

If I posed the same question but changed yellow plate to throwing trash out the window or leaving tire marks i think it would be similar to not replacing divots etc and then i would understand if something was said.

I honestly don't think anyone could change your mind at this stage, some very good arguments for and against have been made and it seems that either way, golf wouldn't be effected negativly as long as the changes were small while in keeping with some form of tradition. You maintain that any easing on the rules will result in a complete disregard by others when I simply can't see it being the case.

GreeBo

dan_ep82 wrote: »

You maintain that any easing on the rules will result in a complete disregard by others when I simply can't see it being the case.

I do?
That's news to me since I have clearly stated several times that I have no problem with the rules being changed, once that's what the majority wants. I also gave examples of how the rules have changed from suits to more casual styles and finally how clubhouse rules and rules for children have changed in my club massively.

My issue is with people deciding in isolation to ignore the rules. That's where the lack of respect is displayed and interpreted.

But by all means misrepresent my argument.

dan_ep82

GreeBo wrote: »

I do?
That's news to me since I have clearly stated several times that I have no problem with the rules being changed, once that's what the majority wants. I also gave examples of how the rules have changed from suits to more casual styles and finally how clubhouse rules and rules for children have changed in my club massively.

My issue is with people deciding in isolation to ignore the rules. That's where the lack of respect is displayed and interpreted.

But by all means misrepresent my argument.

Your post certainly give that impression , but more than that to me its clear you think if the rules were relaxed to plain tracksuit bottoms and a top you'd expect more rule breaking yes?

The detrimental effect is people ignoring the rules and etiquette of the game, as I said, idon't mind rules changing, if that's what the majority in the club wants.
you may not be talking metallica t shirts, but others will, that's the nature of people.

If you allow aplain tracksuit why not a plain t shirt?
maybe allow a single stripe? Where do you draw the line?

GreeBo

galwaylad14 wrote: »

So I've no respect because I choose to play in tracksuit bottoms sometimes?

I think you're guilty of some outrageous stereotyping here and like it or not but it's attitudes like this that cause our great game to get a bad reputation as being uppity and snobbish.

And why wouldn't it cause that reputation? You're judging people by how they dress. I'm just not comfortable with that. For me, if they respect the golf course and the people playing on it then they can wear what they like

As someone said earlier, we could rewind the click back 20 years or whatever and replace "women being allowed on the course" with dress code and you could apply your exact same argument about tradition, the rules of the club etc. Does that make it right though?

Yes you are if you club dress code requires you to dress to a higher standard.
It's not outrageous in any way, you openly show a disregard for the rules of the club, what other rules do you ignore that aren't so obvious?
People are being judged on their attitude towards rules.
If people feel that having rules and standards is uppity and snobbish then I'm perfectly happy to not have them playing golf.

When the rule was women not allowed then they didn't play, they certainly didn't just turn up and ignore the rule as you are. That rule was changed due to the legal requirement for equality, you still however are perfectly entitled to have clubs that don't allow women, so called men's clubs.

I've yet to see a valid argument regarding why exactly one can't manage to wear appropriate clothes on the golf course?
"I don't want to, wah wah wah" seems to be the guts of it.

GreeBo

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Your post certainly give that impression , but more than that to me its clear you think if the rules were relaxed to plain tracksuit bottoms and a top you'd expect more rule breaking yes?

Yes, if you ignore the rules, not if you change them.
If the rules are changed then you are not breaking them?

I would have thought my second post that you quoted clearly states this?

galwaylad14

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes you are if you club dress code requires you to dress to a higher standard.
It's not outrageous in any way, you openly show a disregard for the rules of the club, what other rules do you ignore that aren't so obvious?
People are being judged on their attitude towards rules.
If people feel that having rules and standards is uppity and snobbish then I'm perfectly happy to not have them playing golf.

When the rule was women not allowed then they didn't play, they certainly didn't just turn up and ignore the rule as you are. That rule was changed due to the legal requirement for equality, you still however are perfectly entitled to have clubs that don't allow women, so called men's clubs.

I've yet to see a valid argument regarding why exactly one can't manage to wear appropriate clothes on the golf course?
"I don't want to, wah wah wah" seems to be the guts of it.

Well if you read my post you'll see I said I wear golf clothes when I play with others as I know some people do make a big deal out of it so I do go along with it because there's no point annoying people. For example if me and you were paired together I wouldn't want to ruin your day by wearing a tracksuit bottom or a t shirt without a collar or something.

So in those circumstances I would stick to it but when I'm just out by myself or out for a few holes with a friend I wouldn't really to be honest.

So I suppose you could say I loosely stick to it but I don't agree with it.

You say I don't have a valid argument for people not having to wear "appropriate" golf clothes. Well you don't have one in favour of it either apart from that it's in the rules, and it's not even in the rules, it's etiquette or a local rule more so. But once upon a time it was in the rules that women couldn't play. Did that make that right? To get very extreme on it, it was once a rule in America that white men could own black people as slaves. Was that right?

Just because it's a rule or a law doesn't automatically make it right you know.

Now it goes without saying what we're arguing about is very trivial compared to that example but the point still stands.

There's no reason people shouldn't be allowed wear what they want playing golf IMO once their modesty isn't compromised!

And I defintley think being so rigid on something so trivial as a persons dress may put people off our great game and that's a shame. And don't miss the point here and say that it only costs x, y or z to buy the clothes, because that isn't the point. What would put people off is just the fact anyone cares in the first place.

galwaylad14

Don't know what I did there but managed to put my entire reply in the quote bracket I think!

GreeBo

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Well if you read my post you'll see I said I wear golf clothes when I play with others as I know some people do make a big deal out of it so I do go along with it because there's no point annoying people. For example if me and you were paired together I wouldn't want to ruin your day by wearing a tracksuit bottom or a t shirt without a collar or something.

So in those circumstances I would stick to it but when I'm just out by myself or out for a few holes with a friend I wouldn't really to be honest.

So I suppose you could say I loosely stick to it but I don't agree with it.

Honestly if you wear what the club expects you to wear then Im happy; even if you are seething inside, meh.

galwaylad14 wrote: »

You say I don't have a valid argument for people not having to wear "appropriate" golf clothes. Well you don't have one in favour of it either apart from that it's in the rules, and it's not even in the rules, it's etiquette or a local rule more so.

I think it being in the rules is a pretty good reason actually. In fact I cant think of a possible better one.

I never said rules of golf, its club rules. A rule of the club that you are paying to play in and who's rules you agreed to abide by.

galwaylad14 wrote: »

But once upon a time it was in the rules that women couldn't play. Did that make that right? To get very extreme on it, it was once a rule in America that white men could own black people as slaves. Was that right?

Just because it's a rule or a law doesn't automatically make it right you know.

Agreed. But then get the rule changed. If there is no appetite to change the rule then it stays. There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

galwaylad14 wrote: »

There's no reason people shouldn't be allowed wear what they want playing golf IMO once their modesty isn't compromised!

And I defintley think being so rigid on something so trivial as a persons dress may put people off our great game and that's a shame. And don't miss the point here and say that it only costs x, y or z to buy the clothes, because that isn't the point. What would put people off is just the fact anyone cares in the first place.

There is a reason, common standards that the club, not individuals, decides on.
Again, your argument boils down to "because I want to".
Not a good enough reason for me.

GreeBo

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Don't know what I did there but managed to put my entire reply in the quote bracket I think!

Fixed.

dan_ep82

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes, if you ignore the rules, not if you change them.
If the rules are changed then you are not breaking them?

I would have thought my second post that you quoted clearly states this?

I'm not sure if your confusing my posts with another or if your just deflecting.

Your the one who keeps bringing up rule breaking, I'm talking about rule changing.

Your post I quoted clearly shows you think one small change will lead to more extravagant changes,as in you think any change is a gateway for other more detrimental changes. When the club rule for attire was changed to encompass trousers and a polo shirt it was as big a change as it would be to allow tracksuit bottoms now and yet it didn't open the way for sleeveless shirts or jeans? It's because they are the rules and they are upheld, the same way if tracksuit bottoms were allowed and jeans were not they would not be allowed on the course.