Brazilian Ronaldo Names His Best XI of All-Time

CSF

L'prof wrote: »

That's just not true! Not only has it been matched, it's been beaten...by you guessed it, Messi. I think both should probably make any best XI, but since Ronaldo's arrival he's scored 284 goals and Messi has scored 297. You could argue Ronaldo has a slightly better ratio, but it's negligible really.

Why would you not use goal ratio? That is surely the meter you would use to measure. That just stinks of twisting statistics to suit a point that does not exist.

Ulysses Gaze

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Good team but I'd have Lev Yashin in Goal.

The goalie Ronaldo picked is the strangest of all his selections.

Iribar played for Athletic Bilbao and was, apparently a very very good keeper, but if you were going to pick a Spanish keeper then Ricardo Zamora, Zubizarreta or even Casillas would have been better choices.

Maybe Kewell, or would that be pushing it ?

Probably pushing it. You could probably get away with a random keeper. Personally, I'd pick someone like Steve Ogrizovic in goal.

CSF

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Why not put Gerd Muller in ahead of Ronaldo?

453 league games for Bayern and 398 goals.

62 games for West Germany and 68 goals.

I always think Muller is one of the most underrated strikers of all time.

Agreed on Muller being an all time great but I wouldn't consider him to be a more effective player than Ronaldo either. He came from a period where people scored more goals. Have a look at the top scorer stats from the era he played in, so many players in the leagues having double digits.

Not wanting to depreciate Muller's individual accomplishments at all here, I just think they need to be put in context with Ronaldo and Messi whose goal tallies each season dwarf what people can be expected to achieve in a season in this era of increased tactical awareness, and where the weaker teams have gotten less weak.

Ronaldo and Messi have had to evolve to meet that IMO and the fact that they're both breaking Champions League and domestic records so early in their careers really indicates something very clear to me.

An all-time 11 without Ronaldo or Messi is both overly romanticised or just wrong.

CSF

Skylinehead wrote: »

One of those players revolutionised football. Hint: it wasn't Ronaldo. And you call that laughable?

Well actually no, Rinus Michels revolutionised football, Cruyff was the key player in his tactic, the orchestrator.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I would but I'm far too distracted by your "Ronaldo is the most effective footballer ever" comment. I do wonder about those who make such comments, are they long lost mega fans of Inzaghi or Van Nistelrooy? Like Ronaldo, great goalscorers yet they are never mentioned in these lists.

Comparing Ronaldo to fox in the box goalpoachers is silly and is indicative of your approach to twisting any argument in a direction that makes the Barcelona team or player look better.

If Ronaldo played for Barcelona or Chelsea you would not be belittling him in such a manner as just a goalscorer, you'd be getting onto the Oxford dictionary to request that they could create some new adjectives that you could turn into superlatives for your meandering posts about him on here.

Donnielighto

Skylinehead wrote: »

One of those players revolutionised football. Hint: it wasn't Ronaldo. And you call that laughable?

Cryuff wasnt revolutionary himself though, total football has it's origin in the ukraine or hungary or somewhere i think.

Donnielighto

CSF wrote: »

Comparing Ronaldo to fox in the box goalpoachers is silly and is indicative of your approach to twisting any argument in a direction that makes the Barcelona team or player look better.

If Ronaldo played for Barcelona or Chelsea you would not be belittling him in such a manner as just a goalscorer, you'd be getting onto the Oxford dictionary to request that they could create some new adjectives that you could turn into superlatives for your meandering posts about him on here.

Ha, brilliant

Ulysses Gaze

Donnielighto wrote: »

Cryuff wasnt revolutionary himself though, total football has it's origin in the ukraine or hungary or somewhere i think.

Rinus Michels modelled Total Football on the tactics of the Hungarian Golden Team.

Nándor Hidegkuti essentially played the same type of role in the 1950's that Messi plays today.

Some team. Hard to argue with it

L'prof

CSF wrote: »

Why would you not use goal ratio? That is surely the meter you would use to measure. That just stinks of twisting statistics to suit a point that does not exist.

Because the difference is negligible either way, but you claim everybody pails in comparison to Ronaldo. Have to say I'd rather be ahead on goals than ratio when it's so close though.

CSF

L'prof wrote: »

Because the difference is negligible either way, but you claim everybody pails in comparison to Ronaldo. Have to say I'd rather be ahead on goals than ratio when it's so close though.

Its less close than you make out. Its 2 extra goals in 15 extra games in La Liga in that time. When you consider Ronaldo's goal record has been well over a goal a game, relatively speaking, that is a big enough difference, because at Ronaldo's ratio, you'd expect him to get 17 goals in those 15 games.

But fine if you'd rather be 2 goals ahead. It makes very little sense but who am I to argue with your wishes?

The goal ratio in Champions League is closer but still in Ronaldo's favour.

Ronaldo's Copa Del Rey ratio is also better.

tayto lover

No Dundalk lads on it FFS.
Thought Towell might have made it.

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

Comparing Ronaldo to fox in the box goalpoachers is silly and is indicative of your approach to twisting any argument in a direction that makes the Barcelona team or player look better.

If Ronaldo played for Barcelona or Chelsea you would not be belittling him in such a manner as just a goalscorer, you'd be getting onto the Oxford dictionary to request that they could create some new adjectives that you could turn into superlatives for your meandering posts about him on here.

Would I? He's an incredible goalscorer, maybe the best goalscorer in the world and I'd certainly laud that but more often than not you will find that the type of player I prefer is the kind capable of producing incredible feats of technical brilliance. Ronaldo is an amazing athlete, a very fine technical player too, but Messi is different, he's a genius. When they talk about Ronaldo they talk about goals, when they talk about Messi the discussion encompasses so much more.

You can go on about my propensity for poetic language but I've practically run out of ways to describe Messi, he is in uncharted territory. Would I swap Messi for Ronaldo? Not a chance. Would I rather Ronaldo at Chelsea more than Messi? No way. For me, Messi is the first name I'd have on any of these "greatest 11" teamsheets.

Talib Fiasco

Messi: 74 in 91
Ronaldo: 71 in 108

How is it in Ronaldo's favour?

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Would I? He's an incredible goalscorer, maybe the best goalscorer in the world and I'd certainly laud that but more often than not you will find that the type of player I prefer is the kind capable of producing incredible feats of technical brilliance. Ronaldo is an amazing athlete, a very fine technical player too, but Messi is different, he's a genius. When they talk about Ronaldo they talk about goals, when they talk about Messi the discussion encompasses so much more.

You can go on about my propensity for poetic language but I've practically run out of ways to describe Messi, he is in uncharted territory. Would I swap Messi for Ronaldo? Not a chance. Would I rather Ronaldo at Chelsea more than Messi? No way. For me, Messi is the first name I'd have on any of these "greatest 11" teamsheets.

Nope, having read how you go on about Drogba (and I like Drogba alot so I'm not disagreeing with you) you'll pretty much find a reason to go on in flowery language about players from teams you like.

Ronaldo doesn't play for a team you like, he plays for the the rivals of the team you like, so with your agenda driven style of posting you're inevitably gonna look for any reasons to criticise him.

Honestly, comparing Ronaldo to Inzaghi and Van Nistelrooy, how can you post that kinda stuff and take yourself seriously? The only similarity Ronaldo had with those players is that he scored lots and lots of goals.

CSF

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Messi: 74 in 91
Ronaldo: 71 in 108

How is it in Ronaldo's favour?

Those are not correct stats.

Andersonisgod

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Messi: 74 in 91
Ronaldo: 71 in 108

How is it in Ronaldo's favour?

I would like to highlight the irony so evident in this thread. CSF makes a case for Ronaldo, I compare him to great goalscores, CSF takes offence, says Ronaldo is more than that, inevitably his main argument for Ronaldo revolves around his goal record though, even picking through semantics in goal ratios.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I would like to highlight the irony so evident in this thread. CSF makes a case for Ronaldo, I compare him to great goalscores, CSF takes offence, says Ronaldo is more than that, inevitably his main argument for Ronaldo revolves around his goal record though, even picking through semantics in goal ratios.

No irony, I was talking specifically about Ronaldo's effectiveness. Someone questioned whether his goalscoring effectiveness was better than Messi's. I'm clarifying.

Blatter

CSF wrote: »

Its less close than you make out. Its 2 extra goals in 15 extra games in La Liga in that time. When you consider Ronaldo's goal record has been well over a goal a game, relatively speaking, that is a big enough difference, because at Ronaldo's ratio, you'd expect him to get 17 goals in those 15 games.

But fine if you'd rather be 2 goals ahead. It makes very little sense but who am I to argue with your wishes?

The goal ratio in Champions League is closer but still in Ronaldo's favour.

Ronaldo's Copa Del Rey ratio is also better.

I'm fairly sure Ronaldo has scored significantly more penalties though.

Always felt that the amount of non penalty goals per 90 mins is the most efficient way to judge how effective a goalscorer is. I'm pretty sure that Messi edges him in that and beats him fairly comprehensively when it comes to assists (bar this season).

Talib Fiasco

CSF wrote: »

Those are not correct stats.

I'm afraid they are the correct stats for both Messi's and Ronaldo's careers in the Champions League

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

Nope, having read how you go on about Drogba (and I like Drogba alot so I'm not disagreeing with you) you'll pretty much find a reason to go on in flowery language about players from teams you like.

Ronaldo doesn't play for a team you like, he plays for the the rivals of the team you like, so with your agenda driven style of posting you're inevitably gonna look for any reasons to criticise him.

Honestly, comparing Ronaldo to Inzaghi and Van Nistelrooy, how can you post that kinda stuff and take yourself seriously? The only similarity Ronaldo had with those players is that he scored lots and lots of goals.

Drogba is my all time favorite footballer and yes I do rate him highly.

Odd that I rarely see you lavish Messi with high praise, or Hazard? Why would it be my responsibility to praise Ronaldo? I've said he might be the best goalscorer in the world many times on this very forum, that's pretty damn high praise I'd say, do I think he's a better player than Messi? Absolutely not.

Because, as I've pointed out in my response to Talib, when you, and other Ronaldo fans, talk about Ronaldo, the core of the argument revolves around goalscoring, it dissolves into semantics about ratios and things of that nature. It has to, anyone who watches the two play on a regular basis can be in no doubt about who the greater footballer is, there's an argument for Ronaldo being a better goalscorer but a better player? No.

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

No irony, I was talking specifically about Ronaldo's effectiveness. Someone questioned whether his goalscoring effectiveness was better than Messi's. I'm clarifying.

But it's all you have, it's all any Ronaldo fan has. You know it, I know it, anyone who takes their eyes off opts stat and watches the games knows it too.

CSF

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

I'm afraid they are the correct stats for both Messi's and Ronaldo's careers in the Champions League

The conversation is referring to the stats after Ronaldo joined La Liga.

Mostly before that you're dealing at times when Messi was a teenager and wasn't hitting 1 goal every 2 games. Wouldn't be fair on Messi to use those years because Ronaldo had a few years on Messi. Messi's goal record dips dramatically if you use these years but it isn't fair to do so.

Hence why the period always used to compare them is the time which Ronaldo joined Real and the 2 were working off a level playing field for comparison.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Drogba is my all time favorite footballer and yes I do rate him highly.

Odd that I rarely see you lavish Messi with high praise, or Hazard? Why would it be my responsibility to praise Ronaldo? I've said he might be the best goalscorer in the world many times on this very forum, that's pretty damn high praise I'd say, do I think he's a better player than Messi? Absolutely not.

Because, as I've pointed out in my response to Talib, when you, and other Ronaldo fans, talk about Ronaldo, the core of the argument revolves around goalscoring, it dissolves into semantics about ratios and things of that nature. It has to, anyone who watches the two play on a regular basis can be in no doubt about who the greater footballer is, there's an argument for Ronaldo being a better goalscorer but a better player? No.

I'm a massive Hazard fan, you'll defo find posts about Hazard from me particularly on the FSA forum. I don't typically talk the way you do about players though.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

But it's all you have, it's all any Ronaldo fan has. You know it, I know it, anyone who takes their eyes off opts stat and watches the games knows it too.

Not the case. It is just the easiest thing to use as a measure. You can go on all you want verbally about Messi, and I can go all I want about Ronaldo, but our words aren't measurable, and yours are much more flowery than mine.

Talib Fiasco

CSF wrote: »

The conversation is referring to the stats after Ronaldo joined La Liga.

Mostly before that you're dealing at times when Messi was a teenager and wasn't hitting 1 goal every 2 games. Wouldn't be fair on Messi to use those years because Ronaldo had a few years on Messi. Messi's goal record dips dramatically if you use these years but it isn't fair to do so.

Hence why the period always used to compare them is the time which Ronaldo joined Real and the 2 were working off a level playing field for comparison.

Why discredit Ronaldo's years at United? Where he helped them win a Champions League...as well as Messi's early years at Barca where he helped them win 2 Champions League's. You cannot have your cake and eat it. By that logic I could probably convince someone Aguero is a better goal scorer than Messi and Ronaldo by manipulating time periods and stats. It's not valid or reliable

CSF

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Why discredit Ronaldo's years at United? Where he helped them win a Champions League...as well as Messi's early years at Barca where he helped them win 2 Champions League's

I'm not. Just trying to find an equal meter to measure on.

Besides, it isn't as if those are parameters that I casually invented to suit my argument. Any comparisons I've seen of the 2 using statistics typically use this as the timeframe.

Diabhal Beag

People who rave about players they never saw in more than just highlights or a handful of live matches are the worst. Slim Ronaldo would never lower himself to such disgusting antics.

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

I'm a massive Hazard fan, you'll defo find posts about Hazard from me particularly on the FSA forum. I don't typically talk the way you do about players though.

Not the case. It is just the easiest thing to use as a measure. You can go on all you want verbally about Messi, and I can go all I want about Ronaldo, but our words aren't measurable, and yours are much more flowery than mine.

Obviously I'm not on that forum enough then and it rather shows in my fantasy score.

It's not though and that's exactly why I used to Inzaghi/Van Nistelrooy/Muller comparison. It's a measure of who the best goalscorer is, nothing more. It's not a coincidence that when this argument comes up the first thing the person defending Ronaldo will flock to is the goals record. It's not even a Real Madrid/Barcelona thing, I just can't understand how Ronaldo could be considered the better player. As I said, he's got a decent shout of being considered the better goalscorer, just as Muller was a better goalscorer than Maradona, but not a better player. All of the goal stats, ratios or flowery language can't change that.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Obviously I'm not on that forum enough then and it rather shows in my fantasy score.

It's not though and that's exactly why I used to Inzaghi/Van Nistelrooy/Muller comparison. It's a measure of who the best goalscorer is, nothing more. It's not a coincidence that when this argument comes up the first thing the person defending Ronaldo will flock to is the goals record. It's not even a Real Madrid/Barcelona thing, I just can't understand how Ronaldo could be considered the better player. As I said, he's got a decent shout of being considered the better goalscorer, just as Muller was a better goalscorer than Maradona, but not a better player. All of the goal stats, ratios or flowery language can't change that.

Have you ever considered that could be because for their own sanity, you're the last person that one would want to end up in a 'Messi is better. No Ronaldo is. No Messi is because he *insert 50 different adjectives*...............*throws laptop out the window*

Stats hold up better in these sort of discussions. Particularly for attacking players.

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

Have you ever considered that could be because for their own sanity, you're the last person that one would want to end up in a 'Messi is better. No Ronaldo is. No Messi is because he *insert 50 different adjectives*...............*throws laptop out the window*

Stats hold up better in these sort of discussions. Particularly for attacking players.

Well before I so timely intervened here you were already bandying about goals stats and ratios.

As I said though, if you're using goal stats you are just highlighting who the better goalscorer is. I'll go again, who do you consider the better player, Maradona or Muller? Also Messi's goal stats are ridiculously close to Ronaldo's with less penalties included and, with certain parameters, trump Ronaldo's. If they are that close in goalscoring and Messi clearly offers so much more in general play then I don't understand how this is even an argument.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Well before I so timely intervened here you were already bandying about goals stats and ratios.

As I said though, if you're using goal stats you are just highlighting who the better goalscorer is. I'll go again, who do you consider the better player, Maradona or Muller? Also Messi's goal stats are ridiculously close to Ronaldo's with less penalties included and, with certain parameters, trump Ronaldo's. If they are that close in goalscoring and Messi clearly offers so much more in general play then I don't understand how this is even an argument.

See, I disagree that Messi offers more in general play. You would point out that Messi is a superior technical player and I'd agree, he is a superior technical player to anyone on the planet.

But technique is not all that counts in the sport. Ronaldo is a superior athlete, more strength, covers more ground in a game, and has honed parts of his game to absolute perfection.

Messi is the definition of natural talent. Ronaldo is the definition of what hard work can achieve when a high level of talent is also involved.

Rayne Wooney

Describing Cristiano Ronaldo dos Santos Aveiro as nothing but a great goal scorer is a massive insult to the best footballer currently gracing the green canvas. He is the Da Vinci, the master, the Holy Spirit, encompassing everything beautiful about the art we hold dear with one genius stroke after genius stroke of his paintbrush. The vibrant colours with which he paints his masterpieces are viewed in awe by hundreds of millions if not billions, he will without question go down just as Leonardo did, as the great revolutionary of our lifetime, a footballing prophet. Messi is Peter, Ronaldo is Jesus Christ.

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

See, I disagree that Messi offers more in general play. You would point out that Messi is a superior technical player and I'd agree, he is a superior technical player to anyone on the planet.

But technique is not all that counts in the sport. Ronaldo is a superior athlete, more strength, covers more ground in a game, and has honed parts of his game to absolute perfection.

Messi is the definition of natural talent. Ronaldo is the definition of what hard work can achieve when a high level of talent is also involved.

I genuinely don't know how anyone can come to that conclusion though. I'm not being aloof but I just dont understand how that's a conclusion that someone can reach, it's the football equivalent of me asking what 2+2 equals and somebody answering "lemon" it utterly confuddles. Ronaldo is the main source of goals at Real Madrid, Messi is the main source is goals at Barcelona but Messi is also the chief playmaker in the side too. Dropping that deep, picking out those ridiculous passes that he does so often, unlocking a packed defence from deep, I just can't imagine Ronaldo being able to do these things.

To be fair to Ronaldo, he is a different kind of player, his strength is his ability to run in behind, he literally moves the opposite way to Messi. Of course he also deserves credit for bulking up and putting in the almost unimaginable hard work that I'm sure he's put in to get this far. He's been rewarded with a wonderful career.

Though it hasn't been a walk in the park for Messi, it can't be when you are physically as small as he is and you must leave your country, your friends and family at such a young age (13 I believe) and then go through the rigours of adapting to, and perfecting the Barcelona philosophy. An incredible natural talent but that's not enough, any player who makes it to the top must work an ungodly amount to make it.

Andersonisgod

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Describing Cristiano Ronaldo dos Santos Aveiro as nothing but a great goal scorer is a massive insult to the best footballer currently gracing the green canvas. He is the Da Vinci, the master, the Holy Spirit, encompassing everything beautiful about the art we hold dear with one genius stroke after genius stroke of his paintbrush. The vibrant colours with which he paints his masterpieces are viewed in awe by hundreds of millions if not billions, he will without question go down just as Leonardo did, as the great revolutionary of our lifetime, a footballing prophet. Messi is Peter, Ronaldo is Jesus Christ.

I'd offer a more studious reply but I'd just be repeating the same points in the same thread. Great goalscorer, great athlete, a gamechanger but not the greatest player.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I genuinely don't know how anyone can come to that conclusion though. I'm not being aloof but I just dont understand how that's a conclusion that someone can reach, it's the football equivalent of me asking what 2+2 equals and somebody answering "lemon" it utterly confuddles. Ronaldo is the main source of goals at Real Madrid, Messi is the main source is goals at Barcelona but Messi is also the chief playmaker in the side too. Dropping that deep, picking out those ridiculous passes that he does so often, unlocking a packed defence from deep, I just can't imagine Ronaldo being able to do these things.

To be fair to Ronaldo, he is a different kind of player, his strength is his ability to run in behind, he literally moves the opposite way to Messi. Of course he also deserves credit for bulking up and putting in the almost unimaginable hard work that I'm sure he's put in to get this far. He's been rewarded with a wonderful career.

Though it hasn't been a walk in the park for Messi, it can't be when you are physically as small as he is and you must leave your country, your friends and family at such a young age (13 I believe) and then go through the rigours of adapting to, and perfecting the Barcelona philosophy. An incredible natural talent but that's not enough, any player who makes it to the top must work an ungodly amount to make it.

I'm not even going to give you my opinion in depth, because clearly you'd just reject it and it would be a waste of my time.

I'm just going to point out, that this is to be the second year, where the people in football have voted Ronaldo to be the best player in the world. I do hope you realise that Messi is a player in the world, meaning these people think Ronaldo is currently better than Messi.

You've stated that you're not big into numbers as a measure so I may have to dumb this bit down for you a little bit, 2 years in football is a pretty long time.

That is how long it has been since the footballing world has considered Messi to be as good as Ronaldo. Yet still you go on like the idea is such an absurd notion, and I think this comes back to what I was saying from the getgo, you have Barcelona coloured blinkers.

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

I'm not even going to give you my opinion in depth, because clearly you'd just reject it and it would be a waste of my time.

I'm just going to point out, that this is to be the second year, where the people in football have voted Ronaldo to be the best player in the world. I do hope you realise that Messi is a player in the world, meaning these people think Ronaldo is currently better than Messi.

You've stated that you're not big into numbers as a measure so I may have to dumb this bit down for you a little bit, 2 years in football is a pretty long time.

That is how long it has been since the footballing world has considered Messi to be as good as Ronaldo. Yet still you go on like the idea is such an absurd notion, and I think this comes back to what I was saying from the getgo, you have Barcelona coloured blinkers.

Sure and I think whoever came up with this method of shifting the goalposts where now all we speak of in this argument is goals scored rather than the greater contribution deserves to be commended because it has been so effective. I've previously stated on this forum my disdain for the Balon D'or and how the entire process is conducted. Of course Ronaldo will get it, his team won the European cup, while Messi's had a poor season.

Again I ask. Muller or Maradona? Because when you ask kids today about Maradona they tend to have an idea who that is, ask kids about Muller and nothing. When the history books are written, I absolutely believe that will be the case of Messi and Ronaldo, Messi the greatest player of his generation, a once in a lifetime genius capable of the extraordinary, Ronaldo a great goalscorer. This argument reflects that, all anyone for Ronaldo can offer is goals.

Blinkers? Anyone with eyesight can see the difference between the two. Again I repeat, one is a great goalscorer, the other is a great player (and a great goalscorer).

PhlegmyMoses

Ronaldo will be remembered as on par with Messi. They are intrinsically linked and will be forever. It'll be more of a Pele/Maradona relationship, than a Muller/Maradona one.

Andersonisgod

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Ronaldo will be remembered as on par with Messi. They are intrinsically linked and will be forever. It'll be more of a Pele/Maradona relationship, than a Muller/Maradona one.

Honestly I'd be surprised if they were. Certainly not to the extent of Pele/Maradona. Maybe Pele and Eusebio but that's as far as I'd go.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Sure and I think whoever came up with this method of shifting the goalposts where now all we speak of in this argument is goals scored rather than the greater contribution deserves to be commended because it has been so effective. I've previously stated on this forum my disdain for the Balon D'or and how the entire process is conducted. Of course Ronaldo will get it, his team won the European cup, while Messi's had a poor season.

Again I ask. Muller or Maradona? Because when you ask kids today about Maradona they tend to have an idea who that is, ask kids about Muller and nothing. When the history books are written, I absolutely believe that will be the case of Messi and Ronaldo, Messi the greatest player of his generation, a once in a lifetime genius capable of the extraordinary, Ronaldo a great goalscorer. This argument reflects that, all anyone for Ronaldo can offer is goals.

Blinkers? Anyone with eyesight can see the difference between the two. Again I repeat, one is a great goalscorer, the other is a great player (and a great goalscorer).

Maradona better than Muller. Ronaldo better than Messi. There doesn't have to be a link there.

Anyone with eyesight can see the difference between the two, except the large pool of football people who have voted largely between the 2 for the last 2 years.

Oh but yes I forgot, andersonisgod shows disdain for the Ballon D'or so we should of course disregard it until such time that a Barcelona player wins it again, at which time they will have clearly rectified all the flaws that led to andersonisgod showing disdain for the Ballon D'or.

OnTheCouch

This is just one man's opinion of course, so going to be completely subjective. Plus, just because someone was an amazing player, doesn't mean he can accurately judge the best players ever to have played his sport.

Anyway, going back a bit here, but does anyone think Ferenc Puskas should be in the team? He must be one of the best players ever I'd imagine. Certainly would make the bench I suppose if there were to be one.

CSF wrote: »

Cruyff ahead of the other Ronaldo is laughable.

You could certainly argue that Ronaldo is better than Cruyff. Unfortunately, there will be probably considerably more people who would argue the opposite. I'd imagine objectively at this stage Ronaldo would be on the fringes of a best ever team.

Whereas some even claim Cruyff was the best footballer of all time full stop. Let alone whether he should rightfully be in the side.

PhlegmyMoses

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Honestly I'd be surprised if they were. Certainly not to the extent of Pele/Maradona. Maybe Pele and Eusebio but that's as far as I'd go.

It has already happened. Have you been living on this planet for the last few years? Every debate about one of them becomes a debate about both. You are in one now ffs!

keeponhurling

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Blinkers?.

Regi Blinker: good player but not a great player, not sure he should be included in this conversation

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

Maradona better than Muller. Ronaldo better than Messi. There doesn't have to be a link there.

Anyone with eyesight can see the difference between the two, except the large pool of football people who have voted largely between the 2 for the last 2 years.

Oh but yes I forgot, andersonisgod shows disdain for the Ballon D'or so we should of course disregard it until such time that a Barcelona player wins it again, at which time they will have clearly rectified all the flaws that led to andersonisgod showing disdain for the Ballon D'or.

There does though. Ones a great player, the other a great goalscorer.

Actually yes I do, thank you for noticing. When an award reopens voting without explanation on, what seems to be the best guess, the basis of a single match that favours one of the participants in the vote then yes, in my eyes the award does lose some credibility. Of course I could go further, is Michael Owen the best striker ever in the BPL because he won this award? But I won't because luckily for all of us I'm not that odious.

In any case, I am rather hoping to get some sleep before UFC and this (non)argument is rather hindering that process, as such I will say goodnight and let you dwell on that all too accurate Muller/Maradona comparison, both in terms of style of play and legacy.

PhlegmyMoses

OnTheCouch wrote: »

This is just one man's opinion of course, so going to be completely subjective. Plus, just because someone was an amazing player, doesn't mean he can accurately judge the best players ever to have played his sport.

Anyway, going back a bit here, but does anyone think Ferenc Puskas should be in the team? He must be one of the best players ever I'd imagine. Certainly would make the bench I suppose if there were to be one.




You could certainly argue that Ronaldo is better than Cruyff. Unfortunately, there will be probably considerably more people who would argue the opposite. I'd imagine objectively at this stage Ronaldo would be on the fringes of a best ever team.

Whereas some even claim Cruyff was the best footballer of all time full stop. Let alone whether he should rightfully be in the side.

The problem in all of this is that the vast majority of people that would argue for or against Cruyff have never seen him play under the same microscope as they have Ronaldo. Youtube highlights reel? Check. Full match where Cruyff was the standout player? Possibly the football mad will have seen this.

The bloke was effectively finished as a player in 1980. Most of this board wasn't even born then. Same goes for Puskas.

Andersonisgod

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It has already happened. Have you been living on this planet for the last few years? Every debate about one of them becomes a debate about both. You are in one now ffs!

I didn't even want to enter the debate! Someone (CSF) literally called me out, what's a boy to do when the wolf knocks on the door?,

When I debate Messi I don't even think of Ronaldo, I think of Maradona, I set my sights higher.

PhlegmyMoses

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I didn't even want to enter the debate! Someone (CSF) literally called me out, what's a boy to do when the wolf knocks on the door?,

At least this gave me a laugh. You're okay by me Anderson, you're okay.

ceegee

This Ronaldo / Messi bickering is so tedious and ridiculous.

They both stand heads and shoulders above any other players in the last 20 years. The old adage used to go that the top strikers were "1 in 2" players, people would occasionally rise above that for a season or two, but it averages out. The occasional stand out goalscorer, like Brazilian Ronaldo would have a 60-70% return.

These 2 guys have been averaging a goal a game for the past five years. Take any of the greatest strikers of the past twenty years and look at their stats over 5 years, CR and LM give a return 50% better than the other best strikers in the world. They are that much better than anyone else.

Its absolutely phenomenal, and achieved with neither player being a classic goal poacher who offers little else.

To me, I dont care who is "best", it's an arguement that cant be won as its subjective. I'm just happy to have seen both players at their peak.

Donnielighto

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

I'm afraid they are the correct stats for both Messi's and Ronaldo's careers in the Champions League

Are they champions league proper only? I remember someone posting stats before and one of them had a few goals in qualifying which arent really the same thing, not sure which one of them it was.

Talib Fiasco

Donnielighto wrote: »

Are they champions league proper only? I remember someone posting stats before and one of them had a few goals in qualifying which arent really the same thing, not sure which one of them it was.

Yeah just CL proper as far as I know. I think both have a goal or two each from things like Super Cups but I'd imagine Madrid, United or Barca always went straight to the groups? Maybe one of ye United lads could clarify that?

Donnielighto

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Yeah just CL proper as far as I know. I think both have a goal or two each from things like Super Cups but I'd imagine Madrid, United or Barca always went straight to the groups? Maybe one of ye United lads could clarify that?

I think Rijkarrd era Barca may have come through qualifying.