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petrol bombing again!!
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03-01-2015 10:53pm#1how much longer will the gaurdai wait to stop these attacks
this coupled with rumours of adbandoned pipe bombing late last year and the burning of councillor hearns car last year.....this criminal gang appears to be operating with relative impunity it seems
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/waterford-ghrdai-dont-have-the-resources-needed-says-councillor-656567.html
there are well known to be involved with fueding etc....why no seeming effort to shut them down???
what will happen if this keeps up will end up another tradedy like that young family in ballybeg a few years ago0
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the amount of attacks on the one house is crazy, I understand that the Garda resources are stretched but surely in cases like this resources can be made available.
The dogs on the streets have a fair idea who is behind these attacks by yet the are allowed to commit them at will.0 -
the amount of attacks on the one house is crazy, I understand that the Garda resources are stretched but surely in cases like this resources can be made available.
The dogs on the streets have a fair idea who is behind these attacks by yet the are allowed to commit them at will.
Why is there always an expectation on the Gardaí to do something about it!
Can the people not sort these issues out for themselves by whatever means!0 -
TheQuietFella wrote: »Why is there always an expectation on the Gardaí to do something about it!
Can the people not sort these issues out for themselves by whatever means!
Exactly how are the Gardai expected to deal with this situation when all they have to go on is Suspects ,Location and Motive..
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TheQuietFella wrote: »Why is there always an expectation on the Gardaí to do something about it!
Can the people not sort these issues out for themselves by whatever means!
Well it appears that the gaurds have decided to leave it to be sorted out
It is well known that it took being plagued. Week in week out to get them to make any attempt to stop intimidation on people collecting dole off money lenders
If they stand by and those to ignore this situation...they will end with a situation as bad if not worse than what occurred in. Limerick
Vigilanteism (as it appears will have to end up happening) is grand until someone/some child gets killed in the course of it...then where are you??0 -
where's the protest mob about this ??? lol0
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where's the protest mob about this ??? lol
I think there's no protest about this incident because it happened on an estate therefore wasn't witnessed by the majority of us.
Where as the gang that was protested against on Manor st were seen daily in our core city centre area shoplifting,pickpocketing,begging aggressively and harassing shoppers,tourists and the elderly.That would be my take on it anyway.0 -
TheQuietFella wrote: »Why is there always an expectation on the Gardaí to do something about it!
Can the people not sort these issues out for themselves by whatever means!
Is that a real question ?0 -
Where is Birchwood ave, g maps bringing me to co meath:rolleyes:0
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Exactly how are the Gardai expected to deal with this situation when all they have to go on is Suspects ,Location and Motive..
I suppose there are people lining up to give statements naming the people who done it? People willing to go to court and testify? And these witnesses obviously saw the suspects carrying out the attack?
The Gardaí most certainly know who is doing this, but without statements and people willing to go as witness they don't have any evidence, unless they catch the people in the act or there's evidence on them (petrol on clothes, etc). They can't arrest anyone without reasonable cause, and even then without witness statement or other evidence, they won't get a prosecution.
And most of the time, especially in cases similar to this (not saying this specific incident/case), statements that may be given are withdrawn, people don't turn up in court, etc. They do the best with what they have, but ultimately it's up to the people to be willing to stand up and testify against them. This city is too small, and everbody seems to know everyone, and are not willing to testify against them, for fear of backlash, something the Gardaí cannot control.
And before someone says that there should be an unmarked or undercover unit watching the place, how long exactly should they sit there? Don't you think the people carrying out these attacks are looking for surveillance? Not to mention there are not enough numbers to let someone sit there 24/7.
This is a scandalous situation to be in, and i feel sorry for those involved, but there's always more to the simplicity that the majority of the public seem to think in these situations. It's all well and good arresting people because "you know" they done it, but without evidence, there will not be a prosecution, and with the way things are going these days, it's only a matter of time before someone sues the state for wrongful arrest, and that will make any progress towards locking up career criminals be wiped out, to be replaced by and even more softly softly approach for fear of ending up being the cause of more claims against the state.0 -
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and Hearsay,Gossip and Ranting..
Proof is the one yer looking for there
Surely finding proof /gathering evidence is part of An Gardaí Job or is that to much to ask for or expect nowadays.
Ps Isn't it hearsay and gossip that make the confidential number system or programmes like Crimewatch work .. How much starts as hearsay or gossip and through investigation ends up as proof / evidence. Christ in this case half the work is already done they have the location etc etc .
But as the other poster has done blame everyone and everything else but never look at themselves...0 -
Surely finding proof /gathering evidence is part of An Gardaí Job or is that to much to ask for or expect nowadays.
Ps Isn't it hearsay and gossip that make the confidential number system or programmes like Crimewatch work .. How much starts as hearsay or gossip and through investigation ends up as proof / evidence. Christ in this case half the work is already done they have the location etc etc .
But as the other poster has done blame everyone and everything else but never look at themselves...
Sure look it...they had to be hounded into targeting money lenders holding dole cards on people....wouldn't move against the family who was protested against in the cork road after 2+ years of near weekly complaints
It's not new gaurds Waterford wants...its just a proper direction from senior gaurds...why are they waiting for this gang to gain a foothold/become too strong to break up....there's not one person from around Waterford doesn't know who this gang is...how are they let away with targeting elected councilers and other families who are not willing to be walked over0 -
Ye are right, everyone, including the Gardaí, know who is doing this, and all the other major crimes in the city. But ye still are ignoring the point that without solid, hard evidence, nothing can be done. People do not make complaints against these people in this city. I know this for a fact. Without a complaint, there is no case. Knowing who done it and proving it are two completely different things, and people also don't realise that. Plus, you have the judiciary down here bending to every will of a solicitor, regardless of how stupid or idiotic it is. Career burglars or criminals getting bail over and over, regardless of previous convictions or likelihood of re-offending.
The Gardaí know all too well who the locals scummers are, and what they're up to. But it's a case of catching them in the act, because very few, if any, are willing to go up against them in court. And yes, gathering evidence is part of the job, but when the main evidence to be gathered are witness statements, they meet a brick wall of denial or unwillingness. Criminals are smarter these days, they wear gloves, cover their faces, burn clothes they may have used, steal cars to carry out burglaries. It's only when the criminals are idiotic that the Gardaí can catch them without witnesses. This isn't CSI, they can't match footprints found in carpets, they can't lift prints off bricks.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »Ye are right, everyone, including the Gardaí, know who is doing this
No they dont. Why do you think that if the Garda knew who did it they wouldnt arrest them? That makes no sense.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »Ye are right, everyone, including the Gardaí, know who is doing this, and all the other major crimes in the city. But ye still are ignoring the point that without solid, hard evidence, nothing can be done. People do not make complaints against these people in this city. I know this for a fact. Without a complaint, there is no case. Knowing who done it and proving it are two completely different things, and people also don't realise that. Plus, you have the judiciary down here bending to every will of a solicitor, regardless of how stupid or idiotic it is. Career burglars or criminals getting bail over and over, regardless of previous convictions or likelihood of re-offending.
The Gardaí know all too well who the locals scummers are, and what they're up to. But it's a case of catching them in the act, because very few, if any, are willing to go up against them in court. And yes, gathering evidence is part of the job, but when the main evidence to be gathered are witness statements, they meet a brick wall of denial or unwillingness. Criminals are smarter these days, they wear gloves, cover their faces, burn clothes they may have used, steal cars to carry out burglaries. It's only when the criminals are idiotic that the Gardaí can catch them without witnesses. This isn't CSI, they can't match footprints found in carpets, they can't lift prints off bricks.
Since your are so well in the know...you must know that names and addresses were provided six times in less than a month and follow up sought in relation to the money lending ring....and it took an implied threat of vigilanceism/complaints to the ombudsmen before action was taken
Are the gaurds going to wait until some innocent child is caught in the crossfire and say sure there nothing we could do even though we know who done it??
Also as an aside I know of an occasion of a mugging by that mentioned Roma family that was caught on camera where victim went to the gaurds with a black eye and was told nothing could really be done0 -
Digital Society wrote: »No they dont. Why do you think that if the Garda knew who did it they wouldnt arrest them? That makes no sense.
Of course they do, but whats the point in arresting them without solid evidence?0 -
Of course they do, but whats the point in arresting them without solid evidence?
Emm to question suspects,gather intelligence,disrupt the criminal gang
Also AFAIK the offenses against the state act was expanded/or similar legislation brought in to target criminal gangs...so the requirement for evidence beyond word of senior guard is not required
Put it like this...if the organization which was once linked to the party of councillor john Hearn was up to such brazen/open activities....they would be pulled in in a heartbeat
I for one don't watch to see Waterford end up like limerick all out of an unwillingness of the gaurds to do there job...there are some great young gaurds in Waterford who are mad to do there job...but are being put off for one reason or another...they have a chance to break up this gang before it gets too strong and begin picking at feuds again...0 -
TheQuietFella wrote: »Why is there always an expectation on the Gardaí to do something about it!
Can the people not sort these issues out for themselves by whatever means!
No because the guards will arrest you if your a vigilante but will leave you do what you like if your a member of a serious crime gang ..0 -
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tomwaterford wrote: »Since your are so well in the know...you must know that names and addresses were provided six times in less than a month and follow up sought in relation to the money lending ring....and it took an implied threat of vigilanceism/complaints to the ombudsmen before action was taken
To counter that, and seeing as you seem to be so well in the know, do you know if these complaints came with statements? Did actual allegations come with people willing to testify? I can give information to the Gardaí about certain people doing certain illegal activities, but unless i'm willing to give a statement, which has a legal declaration*, can anything be done? Anyone can say John Doe done x, but without being willing to go before a Judge, swearing on God or making a legal declaration that what i'm saying is truth, nothing can be done, unless solid evidence to the contrary can prove otherwise. Thousands of people make complaints to the Ombudsman, but extremely little go any further than that, because people are either unwilling to testify, or the complaint is either fabricated or untrue to the extent that people are claiming. I'm not denying that what is being alleged is true, but it plainly isn't true enough for people to stand behind it as fact.tomwaterford wrote: »Are the gaurds going to wait until some innocent child is caught in the crossfire and say sure there nothing we could do even though we know who done it??
They do know who done whatever, but there is simple not enough proper, hard evidence to get a prosecution. Gardaí will not waste their time or resources attempting to follow up unsubstantiated claims without a willingness of people to testify. It's as simple as that. It's not that they don't want to, it's that there is too much on the line, both professionally and personally, for a single Garda, or a Unit of them, to follow up claims with unwillingness of people to stand behind those claims. Anyone can say anything about anyone, it's the willingness to stand behind it is the problem.tomwaterford wrote: »Also as an aside I know of an occasion of a mugging by that mentioned Roma family that was caught on camera where victim went to the gaurds with a black eye and was told nothing could really be done
I'd love to see proof of that. Gardaí know well the people mentioned in your comment. But again, and at the prospect of repeating myself, without statements from injured parties there is no allegation. All cases require an injured party. Just because it's caught on CCTV doesn't mean someone will be prosecuted. There is no crime without an injured party, and i've serious doubts that the Gardaí would turn someone down willing to make a statement and with CCTV as evidence. Claim all you want that it happened, it's the same as me claiming that Johnny from next door burgled me, but i'm unwilling to state that in court.tomwaterford wrote: »Emm to question suspects,gather intelligence,disrupt the criminal gang
It's not that simple. They need proper evidence in order to arrest someone, otherwise people would be arrested left, right and centre for nothing. You can't just arrest someone on suspicion, there needs to be more. It would make life simpler for the Gardaí if it was that black and white.tomwaterford wrote: »Also AFAIK the offenses against the state act was expanded/or similar legislation brought in to target criminal gangs...so the requirement for evidence beyond word of senior guard is not required
You need to read up on your legislation. Again, not that black and white. Peoples rights are still there, regardless of the changes to the Offences Against the State Act, which, by the way, is serious legislation, which requires serious investigation, and not something which can be done because certain members of a certain race may be prolific in crime. It's a huge amount of work to pin the umbrella of a criminal gang on a group of people.tomwaterford wrote: »Put it like this...if the organization which was once linked to the party of councillor john Hearn was up to such brazen/open activities....they would be pulled in in a heartbeat
No, they wouldn't. It would take countless hours of surveillance, a savage amount of money, and a very significant impact on the community with regards to criminal activities before the Act you quoted would be used. Again, you're showing your misunderstanding of the law, one which may appear simple, but involves a huge amount of complexity. Complexity beyond even my understanding, and one which involves massive investigation, far beyond the time the general public thinks something should take, and something which may already be in operation, but due to the complexity involved may never even make it as far as arrests, thanks to legislation and previous court rulings.tomwaterford wrote: »I for one don't watch to see Waterford end up like limerick all out of an unwillingness of the gaurds to do there job...there are some great young gaurds in Waterford who are mad to do there job...but are being put off for one reason or another...they have a chance to break up this gang before it gets too strong and begin picking at feuds again...
People always compare whats happening in their towns to Limerick. I'm from there originally, and regardless of what the media portray, Limerick was never as bad as it was made out to be. Waterford is so far from the problems Limerick faced for a while, this argument is null and void. The problem here is the unwillingness of people to stand up and fights the well known criminals. No willingness to testify = no case. There may have been a time when the Gardaí had the resources to watch these gangs and build up cases, but that time has well passed, and the criminal gangs know this. With less resources, there is even less the Gardaí can do, without the help of the community.No because the guards will arrest you if your a vigilante but will leave you do what you like if your a member of a serious crime gang ..
Because vigilantes are not as smart as the criminals, they leave trails, evidence which can lead to successful prosecutions. Regardless of intent, vigilantism is illegal, and should be treated the same as any criminal act, and because vigilantes are less "in the know", it's easier to them to get caught, thus leading to it being easier for them to be prosecuted.
Anyway, it's pointless debating this. The general public, who seriously have no idea about the law and how it works, will never understand how hard it is to prosecute anyone, and will never understand the problems Gardaí face when trying to prosecute career criminals. The law is on the side of the criminals, criminals who have more rights that you and me. And it's not going to change any time soon. The Gardaí need the public to help them, but as it currently is, especially in Waterford, the public are against the Gardaí, because they're not seeing the prosecutions that the public want, even though there is little to no evidence to get a successful prosecution. And therein lies the problem. The public see a crime committed, but in the eyes of the law, the crime wasn't committed unless x, y and z are proven, and x, y and z is now a to z, if that makes sense to anyone.0 -
So the Garda want the public to help them by giving them information and then say they cant protect them.Then its lack of funding being blamed, so far this year I have seen four 141 reg garda cars in Waterford alone.While standing in the ATM que at AIB the quay last monday an umarked detective car parked outside tommy hillfiger and the driver got out and with gun on one hip and pepper spray and handcuffs on the other he marched into the bank,there was a large que for the ATM so after about 5 minutes he comes out of the bank and joined the que for the ATM indicating he was on personal business. In what other job of this importance can an employee park up and go about his business on company time. They are useless,lazy and down right ignorant in this city.0
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giles lynchwood wrote: »So the Garda want the public to help them by giving them information and then say they cant protect them.Then its lack of funding being blamed, so far this year I have seen four 141 reg garda cars in Waterford alone.While standing in the ATM que at AIB the quay last monday an umarked detective car parked outside tommy hillfiger and the driver got out and with gun on one hip and pepper spray and handcuffs on the other he marched into the bank,there was a large que for the ATM so after about 5 minutes he comes out of the bank and joined the que for the ATM indicating he was on personal business. In what other job of this importance can an employee park up and go about his business on company time. They are useless,lazy and down right ignorant in this city.
Maybe it was his lunch break?0 -
If only Waterford had a Dunkin' donuts. It would be much easier to find a Garda when your home gets attacked!0
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giles lynchwood wrote: »So the Garda want the public to help them by giving them information and then say they cant protect them.Then its lack of funding being blamed,
They don't want the public to help, they need the public to help. And it is lack of funding. As it currently stands, there are not enough Gardaí to put protection on witnesses, and more funding is needed to get more Gardaí in order to do this. The station doesn't drop everything it's doing to investigate single incidents, crime continues, and Waterford is one of the busiest stations in Ireland, with no where near the amount of Gardaí that other busy stations have. This city needs more Gardaí, it's that simple. There are way less Gardaí on the street in Waterford now than there was only 5 years ago, and the number keeps dropping, either through retirements or promotion.giles lynchwood wrote: »so far this year I have seen four 141 reg garda cars in Waterford alone.
Garda fleet are replaced once cars reach certain mileage. It's economical sense to buy new ones, as you get longer out of them. Not to mention the safety issues which would arise out of buying second hand vehicles, if anything went wrong on the members got injured, the state would be responsible, whereas with new cars with warranties of a few years (the average life of a busy station car anyway), the Government have something to fall back on to recoup costs, if the car was at fault. Prior to the 141 and 131 reg cars, the main fleet in Waterford consisted of 08/09 vehicles, and they had them for 3/4 years, most of the unmarked cars (from crime/drug units) are still 08/09.giles lynchwood wrote: »While standing in the ATM que at AIB the quay last monday an umarked detective car parked outside tommy hillfiger and the driver got out and with gun on one hip and pepper spray and handcuffs on the other he marched into the bank,there was a large que for the ATM so after about 5 minutes he comes out of the bank and joined the que for the ATM indicating he was on personal business.
Aside from longshanks potential explanation, there are other reasons. For example, maybe that member wasn't going to get a chance to get a meal break that day (happens quite often), so they couldn't cook the food they brought in, and needed to get money to get something to eat while on the go. It's also not unheard of for a Garda to have to buy blank discs, or USB keys themselves, in order to download CCTV, so maybe the money was for that. Most Gardaí don't carry money because of the job they have, it could get lost in a struggle, or a chase. It could also have been personal business, but you can't just outright say that it was.
Or maybe you expect Gardaí to live on sandwiches for their 10 hours (or potentially, and usually, more) shift? What would they need proper food for...giles lynchwood wrote: »In what other job of this importance can an employee park up and go about his business on company time.
Well if the President can do it, why not Gardaí?giles lynchwood wrote: »They are useless,lazy and down right ignorant in this city.
And you've had dealings with each and every one of them personally i take it? Which would lead me to believe that you may be a criminal yourself? There's no reason any upstanding member of society would have dealings with each Garda stationed in Waterford... Not saying you are, just putting 2 and 2 together, and jumping to conclusions, like yourself.0 -
And you've had dealings with each and every one of them personally i take it? Which would lead me to believe that you may be a criminal yourself? There's no reason any upstanding member of society would have dealings with each Garda stationed in Waterford... Not saying you are, just putting 2 and 2 together, and jumping to conclusions, like yourself.
You would make a good garda :-)0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »To counter that, and seeing as you seem to be so well in the know, do you know if these complaints came with statements? Did actual allegations come with people willing to testify? I can give information to the Gardaí about certain people doing certain illegal activities, but unless i'm willing to give a statement, which has a legal declaration*, can anything be done? Anyone can say John Doe done x, but without being willing to go before a Judge, swearing on God or making a legal declaration that what i'm saying is truth, nothing can be done, unless solid evidence to the contrary can prove otherwise. Thousands of people make complaints to the Ombudsman, but extremely little go any further than that, because people are either unwilling to testify, or the complaint is either fabricated or untrue to the extent that people are claiming. I'm not denying that what is being alleged is true, but it plainly isn't true enough for people to stand behind it as fact.
They do know who done whatever, but there is simple not enough proper, hard evidence to get a prosecution. Gardaí will not waste their time or resources attempting to follow up unsubstantiated claims without a willingness of people to testify. It's as simple as that. It's not that they don't want to, it's that there is too much on the line, both professionally and personally, for a single Garda, or a Unit of them, to follow up claims with unwillingness of people to stand behind those claims. Anyone can say anything about anyone, it's the willingness to stand behind it is the problem.
I'd love to see proof of that. Gardaí know well the people mentioned in your comment. But again, and at the prospect of repeating myself, without statements from injured parties there is no allegation. All cases require an injured party. Just because it's caught on CCTV doesn't mean someone will be prosecuted. There is no crime without an injured party, and i've serious doubts that the Gardaí would turn someone down willing to make a statement and with CCTV as evidence. Claim all you want that it happened, it's the same as me claiming that Johnny from next door burgled me, but i'm unwilling to state that in court.
It's not that simple. They need proper evidence in order to arrest someone, otherwise people would be arrested left, right and centre for nothing. You can't just arrest someone on suspicion, there needs to be more. It would make life simpler for the Gardaí if it was that black and white.
You need to read up on your legislation. Again, not that black and white. Peoples rights are still there, regardless of the changes to the Offences Against the State Act, which, by the way, is serious legislation, which requires serious investigation, and not something which can be done because certain members of a certain race may be prolific in crime. It's a huge amount of work to pin the umbrella of a criminal gang on a group of people.
No, they wouldn't. It would take countless hours of surveillance, a savage amount of money, and a very significant impact on the community with regards to criminal activities before the Act you quoted would be used. Again, you're showing your misunderstanding of the law, one which may appear simple, but involves a huge amount of complexity. Complexity beyond even my understanding, and one which involves massive investigation, far beyond the time the general public thinks something should take, and something which may already be in operation, but due to the complexity involved may never even make it as far as arrests, thanks to legislation and previous court rulings.
People always compare whats happening in their towns to Limerick. I'm from there originally, and regardless of what the media portray, Limerick was never as bad as it was made out to be. Waterford is so far from the problems Limerick faced for a while, this argument is null and void. The problem here is the unwillingness of people to stand up and fights the well known criminals. No willingness to testify = no case. There may have been a time when the Gardaí had the resources to watch these gangs and build up cases, but that time has well passed, and the criminal gangs know this. With less resources, there is even less the Gardaí can do, without the help of the community.
Because vigilantes are not as smart as the criminals, they leave trails, evidence which can lead to successful prosecutions. Regardless of intent, vigilantism is illegal, and should be treated the same as any criminal act, and because vigilantes are less "in the know", it's easier to them to get caught, thus leading to it being easier for them to be prosecuted.
Anyway, it's pointless debating this. The general public, who seriously have no idea about the law and how it works, will never understand how hard it is to prosecute anyone, and will never understand the problems Gardaí face when trying to prosecute career criminals. The law is on the side of the criminals, criminals who have more rights that you and me. And it's not going to change any time soon. The Gardaí need the public to help them, but as it currently is, especially in Waterford, the public are against the Gardaí, because they're not seeing the prosecutions that the public want, even though there is little to no evidence to get a successful prosecution. And therein lies the problem. The public see a crime committed, but in the eyes of the law, the crime wasn't committed unless x, y and z are proven, and x, y and z is now a to z, if that makes sense to anyone.Potential-Monke wrote: »They don't want the public to help, they need the public to help. And it is lack of funding. As it currently stands, there are not enough Gardaí to put protection on witnesses, and more funding is needed to get more Gardaí in order to do this. The station doesn't drop everything it's doing to investigate single incidents, crime continues, and Waterford is one of the busiest stations in Ireland, with no where near the amount of Gardaí that other busy stations have. This city needs more Gardaí, it's that simple. There are way less Gardaí on the street in Waterford now than there was only 5 years ago, and the number keeps dropping, either through retirements or promotion.
Garda fleet are replaced once cars reach certain mileage. It's economical sense to buy new ones, as you get longer out of them. Not to mention the safety issues which would arise out of buying second hand vehicles, if anything went wrong on the members got injured, the state would be responsible, whereas with new cars with warranties of a few years (the average life of a busy station car anyway), the Government have something to fall back on to recoup costs, if the car was at fault. Prior to the 141 and 131 reg cars, the main fleet in Waterford consisted of 08/09 vehicles, and they had them for 3/4 years, most of the unmarked cars (from crime/drug units) are still 08/09.
Aside from longshanks potential explanation, there are other reasons. For example, maybe that member wasn't going to get a chance to get a meal break that day (happens quite often), so they couldn't cook the food they brought in, and needed to get money to get something to eat while on the go. It's also not unheard of for a Garda to have to buy blank discs, or USB keys themselves, in order to download CCTV, so maybe the money was for that. Most Gardaí don't carry money because of the job they have, it could get lost in a struggle, or a chase. It could also have been personal business, but you can't just outright say that it was.
Or maybe you expect Gardaí to live on sandwiches for their 10 hours (or potentially, and usually, more) shift? What would they need proper food for...
Well if the President can do it, why not Gardaí?
And you've had dealings with each and every one of them personally i take it? Which would lead me to believe that you may be a criminal yourself? There's no reason any upstanding member of society would have dealings with each Garda stationed in Waterford... Not saying you are, just putting 2 and 2 together, and jumping to conclusions, like yourself.
Light reading anyone?0
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