Ford 4610 lift arms wont drop down

Czhornet

Hi all,

I have a Ford 4610 (Force II) and have had a problem with the lifts for the last few months and its gradually getting worse. the lift arms wont go down when the lever is pushed down in the cab. they come up fine and hold there (dropping slightly when the tractor is turned off)
but unless there is an implement on the back I have to dance on them to get them down. (at least 16 st comes in handy for something!!) they are slow when an empty transport box is attached. I have opened all pins/bolts at the rear, checked them all, greased them all and it has done nothing for it. Its really getting on my nerves now. I'm not sure is this an internal oil pump seal problem or what causing this issue. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

John.

blue5000

Do you know the small black knob for tipping a trailer on right hand side down near the floor? Check is that fully in.

sh1tstirrer

Your 16 stone will drop from all that dancing, how will you get them down then?

Willfarman

Are you certain it's not the rods for the pick up hitch sticking in themselves?

Czhornet

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Your 16 stone will drop from all that dancing, how will you get them down then?

Haw haw, might be no harm to loose a few pounds after the xmas...

I have 2 levers between my legs for the spool valves and a 1/4 twist lever to slow or increase the flow rate of the oil from the pump to the valves. this is fully open and always has been.
I have checked the pins for the pick up hitch and the loop they are joined too, all are free and greased at this stage, but still no joy.

any other ideas??

sh1tstirrer

Did you change the hydraulic oil filter recently?

Czhornet

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Did you change the hydraulic oil filter recently?

I haven't changed the filter in 7 yrs since i got the tractor. That's the filter under the cab on a 90' elbow, right??. There is prob a lot of oil to be drained out of the back end, I haven't looked yet as every evening I go home its dark. I presume there is some kind of sump nut to be undone. If is as simple as that it should be alright to change.

zfml

blue5000 wrote: »

Do you know the small black knob for tipping a trailer on right hand side down near the floor? Check is that fully in.

Did you check this?

Had the same problem and it sorted it.

In the cab, on the floor where your right foot rests, close to the center.
Its is a black knob (coming out of the center housing).
Had to pull up the floor covering a little to see it.

Make sure it is pushed in fully.
Pulling it out shuts off all hydraulics to the back end.
With muck on boots, this knob can get wedged/moved out as you stamp and move your right foot.

milkprofit

zfml wrote: »

Did you check this?

Had the same problem and it sorted it.

In the cab, on the floor where your right foot rests, close to the center.
Its is a black knob (coming out of the center housing).
Had to pull up the floor covering a little to see it.

Make sure it is pushed in fully.
Pulling it out shuts off all hydraulics to the back end.
With muck on boots, this knob can get wedged/moved out as you stamp and move your right foot.

Possible little dirt in valve with handle in lower position hit arms down with a sledge impact might dislodge dirt

Kevhog1988

Odd question.... Have you greased it lately?

Took dads tractor a few months back and couldnt get pick up hitch down as he usually does transport box work and didnt grease her properly

Czhornet

zfml wrote: »

Did you check this?

Had the same problem and it sorted it.

In the cab, on the floor where your right foot rests, close to the center.
Its is a black knob (coming out of the center housing).
Had to pull up the floor covering a little to see it.

Make sure it is pushed in fully.
Pulling it out shuts off all hydraulics to the back end.
With muck on boots, this knob can get wedged/moved out as you stamp and move your right foot.

Thanks for all the responses. the only knob i see without lifting up the floor covering is the 1/4 turn knob to increase or slow the flow of oil to the spool valves. (i cant post a pic here for some reason) this moves a bar/rod down under the cab where there is a valve on the side of the body

I see the black knob on some other pics on the web they are not present on mine.

the lifts lift a silage bale and hold it there, no jumping of the lifts so its not pump related I was told by another farmer. would the filter stop the oil from returning from the lifts to the back end?

Zr105

Czhornet wrote: »

Thanks for all the responses. the only knob i see without lifting up the floor covering is the 1/4 turn knob to increase or slow the flow of oil to the spool valves. (i cant post a pic here for some reason) this moves a bar/rod down under the cab where there is a valve on the side of the body

I see the black knob on some other pics on the web they are not present on mine.

the lifts lift a silage bale and hold it there, no jumping of the lifts so its not pump related I was told by another farmer. would the filter stop the oil from returning from the lifts to the back end?

If the filters on it 7year it's definitely worth changing, you can normally get away with out draining them completely, have the new filter and a bucket at hand and you should be able to swap them without loosing to much.

The filter is on the return side of any hydraulic circuit so it is very possible that it is slowing them from dropping.

When you take the old filter off its worth cutting it open with a hacksaw to see if it bunged up with filings etc.

blue5000

Zr105 wrote: »

If the filters on it 7year it's definitely worth changing, you can normally get away with out draining them completely, have the new filter and a bucket at hand and you should be able to swap them without loosing to much.

The filter is on the return side of any hydraulic circuit so it is very possible that it is slowing them from dropping.

When you take the old filter off its worth cutting it open with a hacksaw to see if it bunged up with filings etc.

Don't,:o you'll only depress yourself

Zr105

blue5000 wrote: »

Don't,:o you'll only depress yourself

Haha, that's true enough alright!

Czhornet

Zr105 wrote: »

If the filters on it 7year it's definitely worth changing, you can normally get away with out draining them completely, have the new filter and a bucket at hand and you should be able to swap them without loosing to much.

The filter is on the return side of any hydraulic circuit so it is very possible that it is slowing them from dropping.

When you take the old filter off its worth cutting it open with a hacksaw to see if it bunged up with filings etc.

Update: I spent a few hours and €130 on oil and filter yesterday for nothing. Changed the filter and the oil that came out was very grey looking so I bit the bullet and said I'd change the oil also. 43 litres of oil it took and I had my fingers crossed when I turned the key. Fu$king nothing. Same as before, lifts up but not down. Put on the pto, hydraulic top link, gave it a good spin down the road and still nothing. I even took off the lift arm forks off the tractor and greased all around me fcukin fcukin thing.............

blue5000

Any metal in the oil/filter:o?

Czhornet

blue5000 wrote: »

Any metal in the oil/filter:o?

I didnt open it yet, I was so pissed off I just left it there. is there any other gauze/filter around the lift lever? there is a lot of oil pipes under the cab on the right hand side.
BTW I hit the lift arm with a sledge which might dislodge and crap in the valves and I broke the bolt holding the lift arm to the lifting rod.

Nekarsulm

Czhornet wrote: »

I didnt open it yet, I was so pissed off I just left it there. is there any other gauze/filter around the lift lever? there is a lot of oil pipes under the cab on the right hand side.
BTW I hit the lift arm with a sledge which might dislodge and crap in the valves and I broke the bolt holding the lift arm to the lifting rod.

At least you have prevented that bolt breaking when you had a tool on the back, or someone standing in the transport box as you went down the road. Must have been about to break anyway.

blue5000

Have a look here, maybe register yourself, guy called Brian on there, knows the earlier fords inside out, try posting in the 'ford world series'
http://www.fordsontractorpages.nl/phpbb3/search.php

I know your tractor is more modern than what's on there, but it should be very similar to a 4000.

Either that or the classic section on bff
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?33-Classic-Machinery

milkprofit

Czhornet wrote: »

I didnt open it yet, I was so pissed off I just left it there. is there any other gauze/filter around the lift lever? there is a lot of oil pipes under the cab on the right hand side.
BTW I hit the lift arm with a sledge which might dislodge and crap in the valves and I broke the bolt holding the lift arm to the lifting rod.

U lucky avoided an accident
Put proper pin in and do it on other side to check other pin not bolt
It has worked for me
Make sure the two lift levers are fully down

jc bamford

It is a while since I owned a Ford but here are a few general comments. The grey oil would suggest that water got in at some stage and this could have caused the problem. There is probably a valve or the linkage working the valve sticking due to a little bit of rust. There is probably a linkage from the leavers in the cab connected to an arm on the side or top of lift top. Disconnect the linkages and try moving the arm(s) with a small vicegrip. They might benefit from a shot of Easy oil. The dept control leaver in particular can seize up from lack of use. Do the same for the flow control valve, make sure it is free and fully open. Make sure both spool valves are free and coming to rest at dead centre in 'neutral'.
Have a look at the bracket where you put on the top link. There should be a bit of movement where the top of the bracket connect to the lift top when the lift is down.

Now that is my twopence worth. Good luck

zfml

Just said I'd give a pic of this black round knob I was talking about.

See below from a 7610 AP cab. Note: this rod coming from the gearbox/mid section can also be seen under the cab.

(@Kovu said she would embed the two images here)

While it may not be in the exact same position, this lever shuts off the back end hydraulics. It needs to be fully pushed in.
It was edged out slightly and had the exact symptoms. Arms very slow to go down. Took ages to drop the hitch to pick up a trailer.
Early symptoms were that the arms were bobbing up and down slightly. Everyone said the pump was gone, filters etc. etc. Just this simple control lever above. It is 100% now.

Hope its as simple for you.

There was also a low pressure return filter we checked. It was a small 3/4inch plastic cylindrical filter. It was behind a cap with a square nut/head beside the filter on the right-hand side. Might want to check that also. When taking it out, have a rag to stuff in to block the hole when cleaning the filter. Its only low pressure return, so no need to over tighten.

Czhornet

jc bamford wrote: »

It is a while since I owned a Ford but here are a few general comments. The grey oil would suggest that water got in at some stage and this could have caused the problem. There is probably a valve or the linkage working the valve sticking due to a little bit of rust. There is probably a linkage from the leavers in the cab connected to an arm on the side or top of lift top. Disconnect the linkages and try moving the arm(s) with a small vicegrip. They might benefit from a shot of Easy oil. The dept control leaver in particular can seize up from lack of use. Do the same for the flow control valve, make sure it is free and fully open. Make sure both spool valves are free and coming to rest at dead centre in 'neutral'.
Have a look at the bracket where you put on the top link. There should be a bit of movement where the top of the bracket connect to the lift top when the lift is down.

Now that is my twopence worth. Good luck

all the levers work except the depth control, it never did since I got the tractor and it never bothered me. (I don't do any ploughing). I have heard that there are small ball bearings behind the lever controls that control the flow of oil to the lifts and these can get blocked or rusted, or a piston ring could be worn and folded in on itself.

I definitely don't have that black knob on the side of the foot well, only the diff lock pedal is there.

All the Fords differ, a lad at work has a 4610 with the pump and filter at the front left of the cab. i think some more ripping will have to be done....

the pick up hitch is now a 2 man job, one to lift the arms up and pull the lever for the locking mechanism and another to sit on the lifts to get them down, serious pain in the hole this now.....

Chemical Byrne

Czhornet wrote: »

I definitely don't have that black knob on the side of the foot well, only the diff lock pedal is there.

All the Fords differ, a lad at work has a 4610 with the pump and filter at the front left of the cab. i think some more ripping will have to be done....

Perhaps the actual knob has broken off leaving the shaft (or whatever) hidden behind the floor . I'd be very surprised if it wasn't there. I've been in several 10 series 7610, 6610 and 7600 and they all had this knob. Have a closer look and look underneath the cab floor.

The pump & filter at the front left is just an auxiliary pump. They were fitted to the 10 series as an option to boost the lpm. You'll still have the regular pump in the back end.

Czhornet

blue5000 wrote: »

Any metal in the oil/filter:o?

I eventually got to cut open the filter, no metal in the filter, just the usual gunk ud find in there.

UPDATE: I got an ex Ford tractor mechanic to look at the lifts, he traced it back to king pin/lift rod was seized. we took off the lift arms and the rubber o ring was in bits. we then drilled two 8mm holes about a half an inch in from the edge tru the cast iron housing until I reached the hard king pin. we sprayed WD40 in to it and worked it up and down to let the WD40 eat the sh1te out of it and free it up. ever so often when i sprayed into the hole black muck would come out. (more on the RHS than the left) done a bit of work with it and put some weight on the lifts and kept spraying. now the lifts will go down (very slowly) on their own with nothing attached to them. will keep at it for another few days and hopefully it will get better and more freed up. the plan then is to replace the orings, tap the holes and screw in a 10mm grease nipple and and keep it full of grease. that shud do the trick all goin well.
thanks for all the suggestions along the way...