Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Buying a house - tenant will not move out, contracts signed, closing date passed

Options
24567

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    cpoh1 wrote: »
    Why not call into the existing tennants? It might be worth a shot trying to appeal to their human nature if they see the person they are impacting on face to face.

    If the current tenants are not willing to play ball with the current lanldord, they're hardly going to change their attuitude for the OP.


  • Options
    #33
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    blacklilly wrote: »
    If the current tenants are not willing to play ball with the current lanldord, they're hardly going to change their attuitude for the OP.


    is worth a try, the alternative is a long processes of looking for a house, possibly experiencing a further property price rise, and then the possibly useless attempt to recover costs from the seller.


  • Options
    #34
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Kelly06 wrote: »
    Surely this is not the case ! Would the tenant not bring an action for illegal eviction against their landlord (vendor) through the prtb in this event? They would be compensated but they would not be given back their tenancy.
    OK, so it's maybe a little inflammatory, but maybe not. Where someone is illegally evicted by their landlord, they can apply for an injunction to force access back into the property.

    This is obviously complicated by the fact that the new occupier has no contract with the tenant. For example, if the landlord had evicted them illegally and moved in new tenants, who vacates?

    I suspect in most cases the court would direct that the tenant applies for compensation rather than allow them back into someone else's property. However if the judge believed that the buyer was somehow complicit or negligent about the situation (i.e. knowing it was an illegal eviction and turning a blind eye), I wouldn't be surprised if the judge directed the tenant to be allowed back into the property.

    I could be talking complete crap though.
    BoatMad wrote: »
    is worth a try, the alternative is a long processes of looking for a house, possibly experiencing a further property price rise, and then the possibly useless attempt to recover costs from the seller.
    I kind of agree. There's not really anything to lose for the OP.

    Obviously you need to be wary about what information you reveal. But say directly to the tenant that you're the potential purchaser of this house, and you understand it's being held up by their refusal to leave. Let them know in no uncertain terms that you are going to withdraw from the sale, so if they were hoping to get someone to pay them to leave, they're mistaken.
    And leave it at that. Don't get into a debate, don't get discussing where they could move to, just walk away. If the tenant is hoping to get a payout, but realises that you're about to pull out of the sale, they may just cut their losses.
    You kind of have to do it face to face. Any other method could be construed as the landlord trying to harrass them out.


  • Options
    #35
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    BoatMad wrote: »
    absolutely not. tenants have few rights in ireland, you have no knowledge of why the tenant is not leaving, due process must be applied.

    They had enough notice and there is plenty of help out there now to help people and families who are essentially homeless .

    This isn't about tenants rights at all its that argument that's allowing people to essentially squat making a hard working family homeless themselfs
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • Options
    #36
    niallfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭niallfitz


    BoatMad wrote: »
    absolutely not. tenants have few rights in ireland, you have no knowledge of why the tenant is not leaving, due process must be applied.

    I am a tenant myself right now and agree to a certain degree... security of tenure, stuff not working, redecoration etc. It is simple. The landlord is selling the house and the tenant should morally and legally leave. If the tenant really cared they would look to contact me and explain...

    Any system (i.e. due process) that enables someone to over stay by 6-12 months is a system that is not working correctly albeit for a slight edge case. There are problems for both sides here. Lots of people have been paid here... architects, quantity surveyors, solicitors, the council, the bank... if I walk away I am the one lumped with a load of costs.. and it is a tough and expensive road to try and recoup the costs. The PRTB could have a hearing tomorrow if they really wanted to.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Gatling wrote: »
    They had enough notice and there is plenty of help out there now to help people and families who are essentially homeless .

    This isn't about tenants rights at all its that argument that's allowing people to essentially squat making a hard working family homeless themselfs

    OP only has the vendors word that tenant is overholding illegally. It would not be uncommon for the previous landlord to have made a balls of the eviction process as this forum has shown many, many times over. We've had a good few threads with landlords serving notice where there is a fixed term lease in place for example.

    If the tenant is actually in the right here the OP calling to the house could be a serious annoyance. Perhaps wear a crash helmet OP. Or dont go.


  • Options
    #38
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Gatling wrote: »
    They had enough notice and there is plenty of help out there now to help people and families who are essentially homeless .

    This isn't about tenants rights at all its that argument that's allowing people to essentially squat making a hard working family homeless themselfs

    since we don't have the tenant here to relate why they are not moving, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt,

    You are voluntary moving from a rented house , they are not. its particularly rich to suggest they are made homeless just to facilitate your purchase.


  • Options
    #39
    niallfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭niallfitz


    BoatMad wrote: »
    since we don't have the tenant here to relate why they are not moving, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt,

    You are voluntary moving from a rented house , they are not. its particularly rich to suggest they are made homeless just to facilitate your purchase.

    Ha. I was wondering when the first dig would come in. They are not being made homeless, they have been served a notice, they know the property is being sold, they have allegedly asked for money, they have been offered an alternative property of equal quality on less rent by the estate agent. They are not an innocent party here with capitalism or a bunch of right-wingers huffing and puffing and blowing their door in. The landlord is not lily white either and that is certainly part of the issue... PRTB due process is simply too long for this scenario (they cannot even tell me when the hearing will be) and it does not take the purchaser into account as a stakeholder.


  • Options
    #40
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    BoatMad wrote: »
    since we don't have the tenant here to relate why they are not moving, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt,

    You are voluntary moving from a rented house , they are not. its particularly rich to suggest they are made homeless just to facilitate your purchase.

    No one is suggesting that they be made homeless. They can seek alternative accomdation.

    Tenants have many rights in Ireland and rightly so, however one of the biggest downside of being a tenant is that a landlord can terminate your lease (obviously the relevant lenght of notice must be given) if he/she/they wish to sell the property.
    It may be the case that the tenants are overholding, it may be the case that the landlord didn't give the correct notice or it may be some other dispute.
    To my mind, it all sounds like a lot of hassel and something I wouldn't want to invlove myself in. For all we know the tenants may ask the OP for money in order for them to leave.
    OP, imo the best thing you can do is give notice to withdraw your offer in x days/weeks. The vendor obviously advertised the property as vacant possession so right now he/she is in no position of strength.


  • Options
    #41
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    blacklilly wrote: »
    Tenants have many rights in Ireland and rightly so, however one of the biggest downside of being a tenant is that a landlord can terminate your lease (obviously the relevant lenght of notice must be given) if he/she/they wish to sell the property.

    A landlord cannot terminate a fixed term lease if he wants to sell the property. This seems to come up almost weekly on here and seems to be a surprise to people every time.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    niallfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭niallfitz


    cpoh1 wrote: »
    Why not call into the existing tennants? It might be worth a shot trying to appeal to their human nature if they see the person they are impacting on face to face.

    That is what I am thinking of doing TBH. And just be nice about it. If they are in a real bind or unreasonable then walk away and try get costs from seller. Needs to come to end either way as the stress is not healthy :)


  • Options
    #43
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    blacklilly wrote: »
    No one is suggesting that they be made homeless. They can seek alternative accomdation.

    Tenants have many rights in Ireland and rightly so, however one of the biggest downside of being a tenant is that a landlord can terminate your lease (obviously the relevant lenght of notice must be given) if he/she/they wish to sell the property.
    It may be the case that the tenants are overholding, it may be the case that the landlord didn't give the correct notice or it may be some other dispute.
    To my mind, it all sounds like a lot of hassel and something I wouldn't want to invlove myself in. For all we know the tenants may ask the OP for money in order for them to leave.
    OP, imo the best thing you can do is give notice to withdraw your offer in x days/weeks. The vendor obviously advertised the property as vacant possession so right now he/she is in no position of strength.


    I wanted suggesting the OP grease the tenants hands, I was suggesting that he suggest the vendor does so, in order to compete the deal and protect himself from being sued.

    The vendor seems to be getting out of this way to easy


  • Options
    #44
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    drumswan wrote: »
    A landlord cannot terminate a fixed term lease if he wants to sell the property. This seems to come up almost weekly on here and seems to be a surprise to people every time.

    I'm aware of that, however I did not think it was a fixed term lease that was in place in this situation, I must have missed that detail


  • Options
    #45
    niallfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭niallfitz


    blacklilly wrote: »
    I'm aware of that, however I did not think it was a fixed term lease that was in place in this situation, I must have missed that detail

    It is not fixed term. The 112 days notice period has run out apparently.


  • Options
    #46
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    blacklilly wrote: »
    I'm aware of that, however I did not think it was a fixed term lease that was in place in this situation, I must have missed that detail

    Well we dont know, it hasnt been made clear. The OP doesnt know either I assume.

    Contracts should never have been signed while there was still a sitting tenant. I would imagine OP has grounds to sue the vendor here. Which doesnt really help him get the house he wants.


  • Options
    #47
    Santa Claus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,699 ✭✭✭Santa Claus


    BoatMad wrote: »
    You are voluntary moving from a rented house , they are not. its particularly rich to suggest they are made homeless just to facilitate your purchase.

    The house is NOT the tenants, they merely have a contract to RENT the house from the owner. If the owner decides to sell and serves the proper notice to them of this then they have no more contract and have to move...simple as that really (I am a tenant who has experienced this and as **** as it is I respected the owners right to sell and found another place)!

    Also I think the OP has also said that they were offered another house that had been sourced for them at a lower rent so talking about homelessness is exaggerating the facts!


  • Options
    #48
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    drumswan wrote: »
    A landlord cannot terminate a fixed term lease if he wants to sell the property. This seems to come up almost weekly on here and seems to be a surprise to people every time.
    drumswan wrote: »
    Well we dont know, it hasnt been made clear. The OP doesnt know either I assume.

    Contracts should never have been signed while there was still a sitting tenant. I would imagine OP has grounds to sue the vendor here. Which doesnt really help him get the house he wants.

    I would also suggest that if the OP's solicitor was aware of the fact that there was a tenant in place, they maybe should have looked for copies of the lease etc to ensure the selling of vacant possession was accurate.


  • Options
    #49
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Santa Claus wrote: »
    The house is NOT the tenants, they merely have a contract to RENT the house from the owner. If the owner decides to sell and serves the proper notice to them of this then they have no more contract and have to move...simple as that really (I am a tenant who has experienced this and as **** as it is I respected the owners right to sell and found another place)!

    Also I think the OP has also said that they were offered another house that had been sourced for them at a lower rent so talking about homelessness is exaggerating the facts!


    we do not know why the tenant is refusing to go, in that absence of facts I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    The OPs solicitor should have ensured vacant possession , the seller should have ensured he wanted the law, or even offered an inducement. however the solution is not to trample over due process merely bed because the OP wants the house.


  • Options
    #50
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,140 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Lesson learned Id say, take it off like a coat and walk away.

    These are the things to be sorted out in the middle stage of negotiations, i.e. unless vacant possession is certified at that stage, it should go no further.

    Its a good thing generally speaking that tenants rights are getting stronger, as we move into a new era of long term renting like our continental cousins. The fine line is determining the difference between exerting ones legitimate rights and taking the p1ss.

    Not to worry OP, get an extension on the mortgage approval now, then be in pole position when the higher ratios come in for the people yet to apply


  • Options
    #51
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,793 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    If you walk away at this stage, you are going to face legal bills. You really need to take your solicitor's advice.

    If this happened to me, I would expect to be compensated for the problems that have arisen.

    This is all assuming contracts are signed.

    I think what is going to have to happen here is that the seller is going to have to pay the tenant to move out, or you are going to have to pay them to move out and the seller is going to have to reduce the price correspondingly.

    I'm sure you've been at this for months now, and I would not want to let it go if contracts are signed.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    If you walk away at this stage, you are going to face legal bills. You really need to take your solicitor's advice.

    If this happened to me, I would expect to be compensated for the problems that have arisen.

    This is all assuming contracts are signed.

    I think what is going to have to happen here is that the seller is going to have to pay the tenant to move out, or you are going to have to pay them to move out and the seller is going to have to reduce the price correspondingly.

    I'm sure you've been at this for months now, and I would not want to let it go if contracts are signed.

    I would agree, given where you are at , surely a sit down with the seller and all solicitors is worthwhile.

    If its a try on by the tenant, then likely a few quid will sort it. its likely too be far less then the costs of disputing the sale contract.

    At all costs avoid litigation, claiming the contract has been broken and demanding the return of your deposit may not be as simple as you think. Get good legal advice.

    At best you might recover your deposit, recovering further costs will no doubt require you to sue. ( and take years to resolve ).

    Personally I'd arrange a round table with the seller, ( or at least get the solicitors to do it) this stuff is usually settled by such methods.


  • Options
    #53
    TeaBagMania
    Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    It sounds like the OP is already vested in this house and isn’t going to let it go.
    Do you have a copy of the original rental\lease contract between the previous home owner and renter?
    If the renters were served the contract termination notice over 112 days ago aren’t they considered trespassing at this stage?


  • Options
    #54
    TOMP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭TOMP


    Desperate times call for desperate measures. Move in with them.


  • Options
    #55
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    TeaBagMania wrote: »
    It sounds like the OP is already vested in this house and isn’t going to let it go.
    Do you have a copy of the original rental\lease contract between the previous home owner and renter?
    If the renters were served the contract termination notice over 112 days ago aren’t they considered trespassing at this stage?

    One presumes they are disputing something, if so then due process has to be followed.

    no more then someone standing in your front lawn, doesn't give you the right to forcefully eject them.


  • Options
    #56
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    BoatMad wrote: »
    One presumes they are disputing something, if so then due process has to be followed.

    no more then someone standing in your front lawn, doesn't give you the right to forcefully eject them.

    And if their taking the proverbial then what more due course .
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • Options
    #57
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Gatling wrote: »
    And if their taking the proverbial then what more due course .

    the justice system and other arbitration systems are put there to resolve these things, If they are taking the " proverbial" that will be discovered and acted on

    however you ( or me) can't decide to simply act as judge juror and executioner


  • Options
    #58
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,480 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    TOMP wrote: »
    Desperate times call for desperate measures. Move in with them.

    What's the legality on that- ?
    Is it about the same as remnant refusing to leave, (When given correct notice ect) ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Options
    #59
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,309 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    TOMP wrote: »
    Desperate times call for desperate measures. Move in with them.

    Interesting. Please do this OP. Just to see what happens!


  • Options
    #60
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    endacl wrote: »
    Interesting. Please do this OP. Just to see what happens!

    other then being funny he can't, he can't even complete the sale, and even if he did, they retain their rights to due process.

    Unless it can be resolved by talking, it will not be resolved quickly and the OP will have to walk away.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Arbiter of Good Taste
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Arbiter of Good Taste


    Markcheese wrote: »
    What's the legality on that- ?
    Is it about the same as remnant refusing to leave, (When given correct notice ect) ?

    I presume the comment was meant to be a joke. :rolleyes:


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement