Buying a house - tenant will not move out, contracts signed, closing date passed

Dick Dastardly · 06-01-2015 11:02pm

OP - out of curiosity what experience did you have when viewing the property, arranging survey and valuation etc., and what state was the property in? Evidence of family home or sole tenant? Well maintained? Easy to arrange access? reason for asking is it might influence your intentions to doorstep the tenant....

Jentle Grenade · 07-01-2015 12:44am

OP should not approach the tenant in any circumstances. Approaching the tenant (despite good intentions) leaves the OP in a seriously precarious situation. Approaching the tenant is not sensible, don't try and trick yourself into thinking it is.

07-01-2015 1:12am

BoatMad wrote: »

by the way, if you fell behind in your mortgage , perhaps the bank could just come and F&*k you out and change the locks

Eventually yes, but if you own the house and have a portion of the mortgage repaid that should far far more rights and time to get sorted than someone squatting in someone else's property.

BoatMad wrote: »

The tenant retains whatever rights they have irrespective of the owner ( or change of owner)

The tenant should have no rights if they are past their notice period they are trespassing and should be removed.

drumswan · 07-01-2015 10:35am

Dominik Refined Murderer wrote: »

The tenant should have no rights if they are past their notice period they are trespassing and should be removed.

And what if the notice period was incorrect, not served correctly or invalid?

The issue is the time cases take to be processed and enforced, not that tenants have the right to dispute evictions.

Mrs OBumble · 07-01-2015 1:55pm

Jentle Grenade wrote: »

OP should not approach the tenant in any circumstances. Approaching the tenant (despite good intentions) leaves the OP in a seriously precarious situation. Approaching the tenant is not sensible, don't try and trick yourself into thinking it is.

Precarious with respect to what, exactly?

There is no legal relationship between the tenant and the prospective owner, so there is no way the OP can get into trouble for approaching them.

That said, it will depend on personalities. And finding a mutual acquaintance to do the talking may be more productive.

murphaph · 07-01-2015 3:42pm

Agree with the poster above who said anyone who is shouting "sue, sue!" obviously has never had to pursue a civil case in our courts system before. I have and I can tell you it is to be avoided at all costs. The only winners are the legal professionals....who are the ones advising people to sue in the first place!!

Jentle Grenade · 07-01-2015 3:53pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Precarious with respect to what, exactly?

There is no legal relationship between the tenant and the prospective owner, so there is no way the OP can get into trouble for approaching them.

That said, it will depend on personalities. And finding a mutual acquaintance to do the talking may be more productive.

Harassment of the tenant. No legal representative would advise the OP to approach the tenant.

yankinlk · 07-01-2015 4:37pm

murphaph wrote: »

Agree with the poster above who said anyone who is shouting "sue, sue!" obviously has never had to pursue a civil case in our courts system before. I have and I can tell you it is to be avoided at all costs. The only winners are the legal professionals....who are the ones advising people to sue in the first place!!

OMG (i just have to break my last post rule).

Its NOT that anyone wants him to pursue a lawsuit. Not getting the house, and just getting the money back thru any lawsuit is a fail for OP. He has said that. He wants this house, so much that he is willing to approach the sitting tenant.

Not THREATening to sue the seller - is simply a get out for the Seller (who has ultimately failed here). And will lead to the OP just walking away - another FAIL. Right now, there is enough time, for him to at least remind the seller of his legal obligations, etc etc... it MAY help him to put his hand in the pocket and sort this with his tenant.

Knocking on the tenants door - as most sensible on thread have advised - is not a good idea.

murphaph · 07-01-2015 4:46pm

At least one poster directly advised the OP to actually sue the tenant!

I see no harm in approaching the tenant IF the OP can establish that a) he's not a total nutter and b) that there's some common acquaintance there that can set up a meeting. Rocking up to the guy's door is another matter and I wouldn't advise that either.

Mrs OBumble · 07-01-2015 4:47pm

Jentle Grenade wrote: »

Harassment of the tenant. No legal representative would advise the OP to approach the tenant.

A landlord can harass a tenant in terms of the tenancy.

But the OP is not a LL. S/he is just another citizen. Knocking on the door of another citizen is not harassing them.

Now, if the OP did it and the tenant said "sex-and-travel", and then the OP did it again, that would be harassment. But no one's suggesting that.

And I'll take it as a compliment that "No legal representative would advise the OP to approach the tenant." - we don't give legal advice here.

niallfitz · 07-01-2015 7:06pm

Dick Dastardly wrote: »

OP - out of curiosity what experience did you have when viewing the property, arranging survey and valuation etc., and what state was the property in? Evidence of family home or sole tenant? Well maintained? Easy to arrange access? reason for asking is it might influence your intentions to doorstep the tenant....

Op here. Just catching up now... experience was ok. Never an issue getting in for viewing, survey etc. Had tenants in it (not uncommon) but never had a refusal to enter. The part where the tenant is now is fairly well maintained.

niallfitz · 07-01-2015 7:07pm

Jentle Grenade wrote: »

Harassment of the tenant. No legal representative would advise the OP to approach the tenant.

OP here. I have had a few advise... a few not.

niallfitz · 07-01-2015 8:02pm

yankinlk wrote: »

OMG (i just have to break my last post rule).

Its NOT that anyone wants him to pursue a lawsuit. Not getting the house, and just getting the money back thru any lawsuit is a fail for OP. He has said that. He wants this house, so much that he is willing to approach the sitting tenant.

Not THREATening to sue the seller - is simply a get out for the Seller (who has ultimately failed here). And will lead to the OP just walking away - another FAIL. Right now, there is enough time, for him to at least remind the seller of his legal obligations, etc etc... it MAY help him to put his hand in the pocket and sort this with his tenant.

Knocking on the tenants door - as most sensible on thread have advised - is not a good idea.

Yep. That leverage is the hope. The seller is well aware of his position. He knows he is liable for ALL my costs for breach of contract (conveyancing legal bill, litigation bill, rent, mortgage interest, insurance, survey etc). Breaching a contract is fairly serious. It is a lot of money. My legal position there is very strong.

I don't want the seller to effectively walk away and sell it someone else after agreeing to sell it me contractually. That is the whole point of having laws around this - it is supposed to protect me in cases like this.

As for speaking with the tenant, it is just more input for me and could work if approached reasonably and sensitively. If they don't want to talk or tell me to f-off then there's my answer.

murphaph wrote: »

At least one poster directly advised the OP to actually sue the tenant!

I see no harm in approaching the tenant IF the OP can establish that a) he's not a total nutter and b) that there's some common acquaintance there that can set up a meeting. Rocking up to the guy's door is another matter and I wouldn't advise that either.

Yep - a mediated thing (not PRTB/Threshold as the due process is too long, there is no guarantee even after months that the tenant will get out... and TBH, as the purchaser I have no part in that dispute system) may be the ticket.

It seems to be distilling into a simple set of outcomes that I am pressing to bring to a conclusion ASAP:

a) seller puts hand in pocket for requisite amount - house purchased
b) tenant is a nutter / tenant won't discuss for whatever reason / tenant in for the long haul for whatever reason (bailiffs and all that) / never going to move in time (in the next 1-2 weeks... the seller apparently has a place for them) / money not enough - walk away / seek damages from seller
c) tenant wants more money or time - outcome is either a) or b) ... after some iterations on (c) possibly

ABajaninCork · 07-01-2015 8:04pm

So, in a nutshell - What exactly is the vendor doing?

niallfitz · 07-01-2015 8:14pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A landlord can harass a tenant in terms of the tenancy.

But the OP is not a LL. S/he is just another citizen. Knocking on the door of another citizen is not harassing them.

Now, if the OP did it and the tenant said "sex-and-travel", and then the OP did it again, that would be harassment. But no one's suggesting that.

And I'll take it as a compliment that "No legal representative would advise the OP to approach the tenant." - we don't give legal advice here.

One thing I have learned is that legal input is one input of many in disputes like this. Not a dig at the legal profession at all... for every silly conveyancing situation there is a violent criminal behind bars, someone has had their human rights asserted or a patient gets a righteous judgement in a serious medical malpractice. All not possible without the profession. With that said, in this case the law/dispute process is far far too slow, ambiguous and does not include or support my stakeholder interests.

I think the nuclear legal option is the last option. Sometimes things can be sorted by common sense ...or is it money?

. Nearly all the lawyers I speak to say don't litigate and try to sort it any way that you can first... we'll see...

Light a candle for me!

Deenie123 · 07-01-2015 10:38pm

If the place has been kept well where the tenant is and there was never a problem viewing the property then the tenant isn't the worst of the worst.

What's to lose by approaching him? I'd word things VERY carefully, though. Rather than all guns blazing, just approach from a "we're just trying to close and your landlord won't tell us exactly what the issue is. I don't know the guy, don't know what to make of the situation so I was just hoping that you could shed some light on the situation for me..." If you wanted to, and depending on how it goes, you could also make it clear that you're not backing out of the sale, that this problem won't just go away if he hangs on.

Don't make any accusations, but I'd try and make it clear that you're not backing out of the sale but rather looking for some sort of timeline and the vendor (their landlord) isn't making it clear when you'll be in.

niallfitz · 08-01-2015 12:31am

Deenie123 wrote: »

If the place has been kept well where the tenant is and there was never a problem viewing the property then the tenant isn't the worst of the worst.

What's to lose by approaching him? I'd word things VERY carefully, though. Rather than all guns blazing, just approach from a "we're just trying to close and your landlord won't tell us exactly what the issue is. I don't know the guy, don't know what to make of the situation so I was just hoping that you could shed some light on the situation for me..." If you wanted to, and depending on how it goes, you could also make it clear that you're not backing out of the sale, that this problem won't just go away if he hangs on.

Don't make any accusations, but I'd try and make it clear that you're not backing out of the sale but rather looking for some sort of timeline and the vendor (their landlord) isn't making it clear when you'll be in.

That's sound advice - cheers.

Blackjack · 14-01-2015 7:01am

OP, how did you get on with this?

niallfitz · 14-01-2015 1:21pm

Have been trying the common sense route am in the middle of trying to negotiate a win-win-win with vendor, tenant and me (buyer). Think it may come to a conclusion very soon. I will post an update when things are solid. It will be interesting! Fingers crossed!

Sala · 14-01-2015 4:13pm

Wondering if the tenant in the "am I being unreasonable thread" may be OPs!

draiochtanois · 14-01-2015 4:17pm

This post has been deleted.

Deenie123 · 14-01-2015 6:45pm

Ah you can't say something like that without giving a link to the thread!

Calina · 14-01-2015 6:47pm

Deenie123 wrote: »

Ah you can't say something like that without giving a link to the thread!

Save yourself. Don't.

BoatMad · 16-01-2015 12:25am

niallfitz wrote: »

Have been trying the common sense route am in the middle of trying to negotiate a win-win-win with vendor, tenant and me (buyer). Think it may come to a conclusion very soon. I will post an update when things are solid. It will be interesting! Fingers crossed!

good man. talking is best