Germany warns Greeks it won't be blackmailed in election

Piliger

K-9 wrote: »

My recollection is McCreevey gradually phased it down to 12.5% over about 5 years, from 32%, though it could well have been initially suggested by the Rainbow coalition.

I doubt they just "came upon it", the IFSC had a 10% tax as an incentive, the export relief that was scrapped became a 10% rate as well, so a low CT policy for foreign multinationals was long established by the time they introduced the 12.5% standard rate.

Indeed. This appreciation of the importance of low CT rates goes back to the 50s and 60s under Lemass etc. No one just woke up to it recently.

The Corinthian

K-9 wrote: »

I doubt they just "came upon it", the IFSC had a 10% tax as an incentive, the export relief that was scrapped became a 10% rate as well, so a low CT policy for foreign multinationals was long established by the time they introduced the 12.5% standard rate.

The original reform, in relation to export relief, that eventually became our corporate tax rate came about in the early eighties and it's effects were unexpected. By the late eighties this had begun to become apparent which led to later governments refining the whole thing.

I'd have to dig up which specific references on this, for further details, which unfortunately requires more than fifteen clicks and thus is outside the scope of what I'm willing to research for a thread

K-9

The Corinthian wrote: »

The original reform, in relation to export relief, that eventually became our corporate tax rate came about in the early eighties and it's effects were unexpected. By the late eighties this had begun to become apparent which led to later governments refining the whole thing.

That's fine.

I wonder why they went from 0 to 10%, why not go straight to 32% if they thought it wasn't important?

The Corinthian

K-9 wrote: »

I wonder why they went from 0 to 10%, why not go straight to 32% if they thought it wasn't important?

No idea. At the same time, this was all back in the day, only a few years after they thought it was a good idea to close down the Dundrum rail line because Dublin's population wasn't really going to grow much more... so I'm sure there was some logic to it.

BoatMad

The Corinthian wrote: »

No idea. At the same time, this was all back in the day, only a few years after they thought it was a good idea to close down the Dundrum rail line because Dublin's population wasn't really going to grow much more... so I'm sure there was some logic to it.

we still do appalling planing, look at the M50, a 2 lane motorway with traffic light controlled junctions, which had to be expensively redone and today is still incorrect

The_Valeyard

BoatMad wrote: »

we still do appalling planing, look at the M50, a 2 lane motorway with traffic light controlled junctions, which had to be expensively redone and today is still incorrect

Which part?

BoatMad

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Which part?

planning restrictions introduced an unnecessarily speed restriction down to 100kph, this was purely a noise abatement

Junctions are still low capacity with inadequate leading, for example Ballymount should be closed and fed from Tallaght etc

Sandyford/ Dundrum/ballinteer etc with unequal access, etc


All a hodge podge , rather then a properly planned route.

Piliger

I agree - the M50 is an example of comprehensive mindless ineptitude. But this is what happens when you have civil servants with absolutely no accountability whatsoever.

The mistakes cost many millions to fix, and millions more is still beings spent because of those gross idiocies yet when pressed by the news media at the time, it transpired that not only was no one fired or demoted, they were promoted.

Kermit.de.frog

The new Greek flag from Sunday

http://i.imgur.com/uUizQfJ.jpg

The Diabolical Monocle

BoatMad wrote: »

planning restrictions introduced an unnecessarily speed restriction down to 100kph, this was purely a noise abatement

fortunately no-one here obeys the speed limit.
Irish style, two errors make a correct.

Kermit.de.frog

Pffft taxes are only for the less productive in Europe like the Germans and the Irish and the Dutch.

Greeks stop paying taxes in expectation of Syriza poll victory

A reluctance to pay taxes was much criticised by Greece’s creditors as one reason why the country needed a big international bailout. Now many Greeks are again avoiding the taxman as they bet the radical left Syriza party will quickly loosen fiscal policy if it comes to power in Sunday’s general election.

A finance ministry official confirmed on Friday that state revenues had collapsed this month. “It’s normal for the tax take to decline during an election campaign but this time it’s more noticeable,” the official said, avoiding any specific figures on the projected shortfall.

However, two private sector economists forecast the shortfall could exceed €1.5bn, or more than 40 per cent of projected revenues for January.

Angeliki Mousouri, a dentist who is paying off more than €20,000 of tax arrears, said she missed a monthly instalment due in December.

“I don’t expect to be penalised,” she said. “If Syriza is the government they will show leniency to cash-strapped taxpayers.”

...

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b47c6...#axzz3PdLyl2KX

Calibos

Jesus, they're a lost cause aren't they!

Piliger

Calibos wrote: »

Jesus, they're a lost cause aren't they!

And it's EVERYONE ELSE's fault !!

Roquentin

it will be interesting to see what they do (syriza that is)

Ghost Buster

Perhaps Germany needs reminding that just a few decades ago it had a massive debt written off. A debt run up not by poor regulation or an economic crash but by two genocidal world conquest.

Piliger

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Perhaps Germany needs reminding that just a few decades ago it had a massive debt written off. A debt run up not by poor regulation or an economic crash but by two genocidal world conquest.

An have paid Europe and world back many times over in it's leadership and other ways since then. This attempt at a guilt trip is obnoxious. The Greeks need to pay their way and pay their debts.

Areyouwell

flanzer wrote: »

Iceland seem to be doing alright for themselves now, considering the early turmoil of burning their bondholders

You can't be saying stuff like that. It upsets the obedient clowns in Government and their banking masters.

Kermit.de.frog

Tsipras: "Today is a new beginning, a victory by SYRIZA will be followed by Podemos in Spain & next year, Sinn Féin in Ireland".

I'd say the even the shinners might baulk at this particular endorsement.

Roquentin

they are waving flags now, i doubt they will in the future

Ghost Buster

Piliger wrote: »

An have paid Europe and world back many times over in it's leadership and other ways since then. This attempt at a guilt trip is obnoxious. The Greeks need to pay their way and pay their debts.

Was it known this "pay back" would happen at the time of the write down?

duckcfc

They are just numbers and after the big fcuk up the banks created globally, they should have just wiped most of them away. Fcuk them numbers because they are the main cause of the misery on this planet. I hope all left wing parties get into governments around Europe and the world and slows this capitalist train down. Anyone thinks different is part of the problem!!

Dyr

Piliger wrote: »

An have paid Europe and world back many times over in it's leadership and other ways since then. This attempt at a guilt trip is obnoxious. The Greeks need to pay their way and pay their debts.

Such cognitive dissonance must be exhausting. I don't remember germany agreeing to pay back their financial debts in "leadership" or the far more mysterious "other ways" as part of their debt forgiveness. They were just given a massive break.

What's sauce for the gooose(step) is defintely not sauce for the gander in the europe of equals it seems

Wurzelbert

grexit all the way as far as i am concerned, and rather sooner than later...huge mistake to ever admit a dud like greece to the euro, but better end that charade now than drag on any longer...

Wurzelbert

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Perhaps Germany needs reminding that just a few decades ago it had a massive debt written off. A debt run up not by poor regulation or an economic crash but by two genocidal world conquest.

do no forget that the only reason germany ever was in debt after 45 was because the country had been destroyed, plundered and economically wiped out over a period of some 30 years through a concerted international effort...the situation of greece is totally different and just cannot be compared at all...

VinLieger

duckcfc wrote: »

They are just numbers and after the big fcuk up the banks created globally, they should have just wiped most of them away. Fcuk them numbers because they are the main cause of the misery on this planet. I hope all left wing parties get into governments around Europe and the world and slows this capitalist train down. Anyone thinks different is part of the problem!!

God i love when arm chair socialists simplify all the worlds problems without actually knowing a thing about what they are talking about.

Greeces problems obviously have nothing to do with their extreme cooking of their books to enter the EU in the first place or the fact that their black economy accounts for 24% of all economic activity in the country, one obvious example of this kind of tax evasion is visible when traveling through rural greece and you will see every second house with an unfinished second story and exposed rebar as you dont have to pay the building tax until construction is completed.

Dyr

Wurzelbert wrote: »

do no forget that the only reason germany ever was in debt after 45 was because the country had been destroyed, plundered and economically wiped out over a period of some 30 years through a concerted international effort...the situation of greece is totally different and just cannot be compared at all...

Germany was in fine economic health when they decided that they quite fancied another crack at ruling the rest of the landmass.

Wurzelbert

Bambi wrote: »

Germany was in fine economic health when they decided that they quite fancied another crack at ruling the rest of the landmass.

you need to stop watching the discovery/history channel...german and european history is far more complex than you seem to be able to comprehend...like so many brought up in the post-war world, unfortunately...

The_Valeyard

Your move Germany.

Dyr

Wurzelbert wrote: »

you need to stop watching the discovery/history channel...german and european history is far more complex than you seem to be able to comprehend...like so many brought up in the post-war world, unfortunately...

Thanks I'll bear your recommendation in mind if I ever watch the history channel

Now in your own time, you might want to back up the fairly daft suggestion that :

" the only reason germany ever was in debt after 45 was because the country had been destroyed, plundered and economically wiped out over a period of some 30 years through a concerted international effort"

Bear in mind you'll have to find a way to dismiss the following: their economy was far from "wiped out" from '35 onwards, it had been turned around on a huge scale. Or that they spunked all their money from '42 onward on the war effort and then had all their economic resources turned into car parks courtesy of the allies. Good luck with that

Wurzelbert

Bambi wrote: »

Thanks I'll bear your recommendation in mind if I ever watch the history channel

Now in your own time, you might want to back up the fairly daft suggestion that :

" the only reason germany ever was in debt after 45 was because the country had been destroyed, plundered and economically wiped out over a period of some 30 years through a concerted international effort"

Bear in mind you'll have to find a way to dismiss the following: their economy was far from "wiped out" from '35 onwards, it had been turned around on a huge scale. Or that they spunked all their money from '42 onward on the war effort and then had all their economic resources turned into car parks courtesy of the allies. Good luck with that

a very cliché-driven world view...clearly you have a lot to learn about european and german history...yet we are getting off-topic here anyway...my original point was that bringing up a german guilt thing or any connection to that effect in a discussion about greece's economic and fiscal mess is simply preposterous...

FalconGirl

I have a feeling Greece will now be cut loose by the EU as a lesson to others. Left wing ideology is getting popular across Europe. If this Greek government and their policies are successful for the Greek people while short changing the troika, what message will that send to other countries in bailout programs.

Dyr

Wurzelbert wrote: »

a very cliché-driven world view...clearly you have a lot to learn about european and german history...yet we are getting off-topic here anyway...my original point was that bringing up a german guilt thing or any connection to that effect in a discussion about greece's economic and fiscal mess is simply preposterous...

Annnd once more lots of bluster backed with nothing.

Writing off germanys' debt when they were admitted back into the human race on probation was a hell of a bigger deal than what the greeks need.

The comparison is both obvious and valid. The difference was, of course, that the greeks don't go starting world wars if they're not kept sweet

Piliger

FalconGirl wrote: »

I have a feeling Greece will now be cut loose by the EU as a lesson to others. Left wing ideology is getting popular across Europe. If this Greek government and their policies are successful for the Greek people while short changing the troika, what message will that send to other countries in bailout programs.

I had to laugh. "Left wing ideology is getting popular across Europe" really ? Last month we were being told about the rise of the far right. LOL. What a joke. Greece can do what it likes within Greece, but it has to pay what it owes and stand up for it's contractual obligations. Like everyone else. Them leaving the EU is the craziest thing I've heard for a long time.

KomradeBishop

Well, Syriza just won - first glimmer of hope, that there might be some return to economic sanity in Europe, within the next decade (rather than this fake 'recovery'-turn-deflation that we've had).

Among Syriza ranks now, is Yanis Varoufakis - economics professor at Athens University (and used to work for Valve Software) - who pretty much planned out a complete solution to the EU's economic problems with his 'Modest Proposal' (that could bring a real recovery), which can be carried out without any treaty changes.

NotASheeple

Piliger wrote: »

Greece can do what it likes within Greece, but it has to pay what it owes and stand up for it's contractual obligations. Like everyone else.

I love this banker-speak, revisionist nonsense. It's corrupt scum like Goldman Sachs, that cooked the books for Greece and allowed a nation that shouldn't have been allowed into the Euro club, full access. Nobody should be surprised by what eventually transpired.

Piliger

NotASheeple wrote: »

I love this banker-speak, revisionist nonsense. It's corrupt scum like Goldman Sachs, that cooked the books for Greece and allowed a nation that shouldn't have been allowed into the Euro club, full access. Nobody should be surprised by what eventually transpired.

This is just what socialists say. The fact is that it is the politicians who paid for the fraudulent books that are to blame. Personally I am not at all surprised. I knew Greece was a completely irresponsible and corrupt country long ago. The rest of Europe was insanely generous to bring Greece into the Euro, thinking that they would respect the rules and aspirations of the rest of Euro. And for that they are paying a heavy price. But the real culprits are indeed the Greeks.

BlaasForRafa

NotASheeple wrote: »

I love this banker-speak, revisionist nonsense. It's corrupt scum like Goldman Sachs, that cooked the books for Greece and allowed a nation that shouldn't have been allowed into the Euro club, full access. Nobody should be surprised by what eventually transpired.

The greeks least of all should be surprised. They used deception to get into a monetary union and then went on a spending spree with the cheap money they were loaned. Their taxation collection system is woeful and they've done little to correct this in the last 6 years, at the end of the day it's the Greeks own fecklessness that has got them into this and they have a nerve to be complaining about it now.

suicide_circus

How many drachma to the euro again?

WakeUp

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Perhaps Germany needs reminding that just a few decades ago it had a massive debt written off. A debt run up not by poor regulation or an economic crash but by two genocidal world conquest.

Greece is in a bad place and its really sad to see the country were government by the people was born and nurtured among other things in the mess it is in. so in some ways these guys getting into power now is maybe poetic in a way or something if not ominous because of the unknowns wonder what the ancient Athenians would make of the current sorry state of affairs. anyways the Germans and its worth pointing out are making money from the EU crisis. they borrow cash at 1% from the ECB then re-loan that money out to the piigs nations us included of course with 4-5% interest on it. so far this has been worth about 30 billion in profit to the Germans though you wont here much about that in the news or on the teevee. even the money the Greeks were given in their bailout 200 billion of that which is most of it, has gone to private banking as liquidity. it then goes back to the ECB and pays for Greek bonds. the spiral keeps spiraling and the downtrodden foot the ball. always.

blinding

If you are daft enough to lend money to people/countries that cannot pay it back or if you have not done due diligence to discern that they will have the capability to pay it back then you have made your bed and you should sleep on it.

Thats the type of economics we need to get back to.

If people/countries cannot/will not repay their debt and you cannot make them do so thenYou have made the mistake.

Qualitymark

The London Debt Agreement of 1953

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/iez/10137.pdf

forgave Germany its debts and is widely considered to be the foundation that allowed the German economy to revive after its utter destruction by the end of World War II.

blinding

Qualitymark wrote: »

The London Debt Agreement of 1953

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/iez/10137.pdf

forgave Germany its debts and is widely considered to be the foundation that allowed the German economy to revive after its utter destruction by the end of World War II.

This German debt relief needs a greater public broadcast.

Nobody likes or in the long term will put up with one law for us and another for them.

Kermit.de.frog

Exclusive footage of the German government representative arriving in Athens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cl7cxopNjg

dlouth15

Now that the election is over in Greece, the rhetoric from Germany and other countries will gradually change. They will enter into negotiations with Greece.

pajor

Bolshies! Nothing but bloody Bolshies! *monocle falls out* :eek:

VinLieger

NotASheeple wrote: »

I love this banker-speak, revisionist nonsense. It's corrupt scum like Goldman Sachs, that cooked the books for Greece and allowed a nation that shouldn't have been allowed into the Euro club, full access. Nobody should be surprised by what eventually transpired.

Yeah blame the people Greece paid to cook the books that makes so much sense.

The logical leap frogging people do just so they can find some way to blame the "evil bankers" baffles me sometimes. Yes they are responsible for some problems but this one makes no sense

SEPT 23 1989

Democracy is such an annoyance to the European elites,their project would be so much easier to complete without the peasants causing problems like this

Roger_007

Greece got into trouble by its government spending far more money than they collected in tax and borrowing the rest. Now they appear to have elected a new government who are going to spend even more money than before and who are not going to repay the money previously borrowed.
If an individual or a business behaved like this, they would be regarded as idiots destined for bankruptcy and destitution. However, the Greeks seem to be regarded as heroes in many quarters for going down this road.
My message to the Greeks is: "good luck with that".

VinLieger

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Democracy is such an annoyance to the European elites,their project would be so much easier to complete without the peasants causing problems like this

I know right? the idea of fiscal accountability for ones actions is just a neo liberal elitist construction to hold down the people from achieving anything, why should anyone pay back any money they borrow? And specifically in greeces case even pay taxes? sure public services appear out of thin air from the magical money tree

SEPT 23 1989

VinLieger wrote: »

I know right? the idea of fiscal accountability for ones actions is just a neo liberal elitist construction to hold down the people from achieving anything, why should anyone pay back any money they borrow? And specifically in greeces case even pay taxes? sure public services appear out of thin air from the magical money tree

Is that the same magical money tree that will start printing 60 billion a month?