Germany warns Greeks it won't be blackmailed in election

KomradeBishop

KomradeBishop wrote: »

That's why I took out the analogy, to avoid muddying it more than my original conception - Greece's choices being:
1: Do what they are told (take another bailout, under conditions they don't control)
2: Put a gun to their head and pull the trigger (go for an exit).

Again, do you seriously believe Greece can survive an exit? They are not self-sufficient with food, they have to import - and they will not be able to import enough food if they exit, and there's a not-insignificant risk of starvation among some of the population, in that scenario.

How about presenting the choices as they actually exist?

1 - Seek funding to cover their fiscal issues from any who are offering assistance and bear the price of any conditions of assistance offered as consequences.
2 - Default on their national debt and face those consequences.

KomradeBishop

Deleted User wrote: »

No. I believe choosing a Grexit would be an awful decision. As I've already said many times.

So you think Greece could not survive an exit?

Deleted User wrote: »

How about presenting the choices as they actually exist?

1 - Seek funding to cover their fiscal issues from any who are offering assistance and bear the price of any conditions of assistance offered as consequences.
2 - Default on their national debt and face those consequences.

If they default, the ECB will pull the plug on their banking system, forcing them into an exit.

If Greece can't survive an exit, then it's not a real choice.

KomradeBishop

KomradeBishop wrote: »

So you think Greece could not survive an exit?

Badgering?

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If they default, the ECB will pull the plug on their banking system, forcing them into an exit.

I'm aware. Actions have consequences. Suggest an alternative scenario? A Greek default would necessitate the ECB removing the support.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If Greece can't survive an exit, then it's not a real choice.

A choice having terrible consequences does not somehow render it 'not a real choice'.

As I said previously, some consider acceding to the loan conditions as the worse option (having worse consequences) . Does that somehow make it 'not a real choice' to accept the assistance and the conditions that are attached?

KomradeBishop

Deleted User wrote: »

Badgering?

I'll take it as you acceding the point, that Greece can't survive an exit - if not, make clear otherwise - I don't want to have to go over this again if you suddenly decide to change position on this.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm aware. Actions have consequences. Suggest an alternative scenario? A Greek default would necessitate the ECB removing the support.

So you are wrong as presenting a 'default' as the choice - a default would be choosing to exit, i.e. to "put a gun to their own head and shoot" i.e. not a real choice.

Deleted User wrote: »

A choice having terrible consequences does not somehow render it 'not a real choice'.

As I said previously, some consider acceding to the loan conditions as the worse option (having worse consequences) . Does that somehow make it 'not a real choice' to accept the assistance and the conditions that are attached?

As this article puts well at the start, with the Godfather quote (similar to my earlier analogy) - no, it is not a real choice - the very idea that it is a real choice is disingenuous:

"My father made him an offer he couldn’t refuse. Luca Brasi held a gun to his head and my father assured him that either his brains, or his signature, would be on the contract."

http://ellenbrown.com/2015/07/30/the-greek-coup-liquidity-as-a-weapon-of-coercion/

Do what they are told, or Death (i.e. exit and becoming failed state) - no, that's not a real choice. No person who isn't being disingenuous, would present that as a real choice.

Can you please explain 'not a real choice' to me? It appears you're interchanging 'good' and 'real' to me. I don't understand why a bad choice is not a real choice.

Please note that using analogies with third parties is not helpful as I've already explained.

Thanks

KomradeBishop

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you please explain 'not a real choice' to me? It appears you're interchanging 'good' and 'real' to me. I don't understand why a bad choice is not a real choice.

Please note that using analogies with third parties is not helpful as I've already explained.

Thanks

You understand perfectly well tbh - if the alternative 'choice' for someone is the equivalent of having your head blown off, i.e. death/not-being-able-to-survive, then a person would have to be wilfully ignorant and very deliberately disingenuous, to present that as a real voluntary 'choice'.

When it's a 'choice' with such stark consequences, it's pretty much coercion, and not a real practical choice at all - anybody should be able to understand this, unless they were making a deliberate effort to be wilfully ignorant.

OneOfThem

I'm a very busy/lazy man.

Could someone accurately sum up the present situation with Greece in a traditional 5,7,5 haiku for me please? Thanks.

KomradeBishop

KomradeBishop wrote: »

You understand perfectly well tbh - if the alternative 'choice' for someone is the equivalent of having your head blown off, i.e. death/not-being-able-to-survive, then a person would have to be wilfully ignorant and very deliberately disingenuous, to present that as a real voluntary 'choice'.

When it's a 'choice' with such stark consequences, it's pretty much coercion, and not a real practical choice at all - anybody should be able to understand this, unless they were making a deliberate effort to be wilfully ignorant.

Can you please explain this in the context of this? Is there any objective measure of a 'real choice'? Or merely subjectivity?

Deleted User wrote:

As I said previously, some consider acceding to the loan conditions as the worse option (having worse consequences) . Does that somehow make it 'not a real choice' to accept the assistance and the conditions that are attached?

Are there any 'real choices' for Greece?

OneOfThem

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'm a very busy/lazy man.

Could someone accurately sum up the present situation with Greece in a traditional 5,7,5 haiku for me please? Thanks.

I've posted a recap of yesterday's issues and today's developments in the Politics Café thread

Final page of that shouldn't take too much to get through.

@KomradeBishop, do you want to bring our conversation in there?

OneOfThem

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'm a very busy/lazy man.

Could someone accurately sum up the present situation with Greece in a traditional 5,7,5 haiku for me please? Thanks.

(i)

Varoufakis' head.
Or euros under the bed:
Something had to go.


(ii)

Bare Syntagma Square.
An empty Phoenecian nest!
Queues at the Cash Machine.


(iii)

Do you think that I
Have nothing to do to-day?
You lazy bollox

First Up

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you please explain this in the context of this? Is there any objective measure of a 'real choice'? Or merely subjectivity?

Are there any 'real choices' for Greece?

Greece has the same choices today as it always had.

The fact they don't like any of them doesn't make wishful thinking a "real" choice either.

OneOfThem

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

(i)

Varoufakis' head.
Or euros under the bed:
Something had to go.


(ii)

Bare Syntagma Square.
An empty Phoenecian nest!
Queues at the Cash Machine.


(iii)

Do you think that I
Have nothing to do to-day?
You lazy bollox

Ask for one and I get three. You're a king amongst men Miltiades, a gent and a scholar. And I'll fight any man, or man sized woman, that says otherwise.

KomradeBishop

Deleted User wrote: »

I've posted a recap of yesterday's issues and today's developments in the Politics Café thread

Final page of that shouldn't take too much to get through.

@KomradeBishop, do you want to bring our conversation in there?

I can't, as the mods arbitrarily decided to expand my ban from the Politics forum to the entire Politics category, when all After Hours political discussion was moved to the revamped Politics Cafe forum - then offered to let me into Politics Cafe if I self-censor my economic views (which I didn't accept) - a convenient decision.