The Magic of the cup ?

Davidth88

Guys

I was totally struck this weekend by the empty seats on show at the grounds , for example Burnley last night and others .

I remember following Chelsea in the 70's 80's and 90's FA cup 3rd round day was a very special date in the fixture list and I would always attend , it was great to visit grounds you never got a chance to visit , and back in the bad days to have teams from the old First division visit ( my abiding memory is 1978 hammering Liverpool and the Bridge was jammed with over 40k , the only time I really remember the North Terrace being fully open and packed ).

Is it cost ? , or pure fatigue or a combination of both . I suppose it hasn't helped that so many of the Premier league clubs put out second string 11's , almost treating this as a friendly.

What do people think , is there still magic is what was a great comp , or has this become the league cup ( or whatever it's called this week ) mk 2 ?

gucci

Davidth88 wrote: »

Guys
Is it cost ? , or pure fatigue or a combination of both . I suppose it hasn't helped that so many of the Premier league clubs put out second string 11's , almost treating this as a friendly.

Think you answered your own question there!

"Magic" doesnt exist in the professional moneyball game

Back in 1999 ManU were allowed skip the Cup because of the World Club Cup.

That was pretty much confirmation from the FA that it was not the blue riband event any longer.

monkey9

There's definitely a financial aspect to it alright. Clubs find it more important to get into the Champions League or to avoid relegation because that equals millions. Also the higher you finish in the league, the more money you get.

There's other aspects to it as well. The Premier League and FA are seperate. Pre Sky and 1992, the FA controlled fixtures.

But now, the FA Cup final isn't the last game of the season anymore. It's not even the only match on that weekend or even that day. It used to be the only show in town. The weeks build up to it and the day itself really was magic, but now there's other Premier League games on the same day and weekend.

It's been shunted out to a half five kick off to accommodate foreign markets, again the financial aspect. It should always be a three o' clock kick off on a Saturday, but money rules.

Even the semi finals don't have the same romance to them. Both played at Wembley now to help the FA pay back the cost of the construction of the stadium. That has to take away from the final in the sense that the players have already played at Wembley before the final so that novelty is gone.

The new Wembley doesn't have that sense of history about it. It's a nice stadium, but just not the same.

The FA Cup has definitely lost a lot of it's magic, but the final itself when your team is in it is still a fantastic day and it's still a great trophy to win.

Lucas Hood

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Back in 1999 ManU were allowed skip the Cup because of the World Club Cup.

That was pretty much confirmation from the FA that it was not the blue riband event any longer.

The fa made them skip it because they were pushing for the 2006 world cup.

Davidth88

Deleted User wrote: »

Back in 1999 ManU were allowed skip the Cup because of the World Club Cup.

That was pretty much confirmation from the FA that it was not the blue riband event any longer.

You know I forgot that !!

That must have been the ' beginning of the end '

I think the semi's being played at Wembley doesn't help either

White Horse

Lucas Hood wrote: »

The fa made them skip it because they were pushing for the 2006 world cup.

The impact of that decision has been over-hyped. The problems faced by the FA Cup would still be there whatever decision was made at the time.

Gringo180

Take the Champs Lge spot off 4th place in the league and give it to the F.A cup winners and you would soon see the magic back in it.

iDave

Gringo180 wrote: »

Take the Champs Lge spot off 4th place in the league and give it to the F.A cup winners and you would soon see the magic back in it.

Platini proposed something similar when he first got the UEFA top job and he was quickly dismissed as a loon by fans and clubs alike.
Cant see Scudamore ever agreeing to it.

Hyzepher

I think the issue has a lot to do with over saturation of football on TV. Back in the day the FA Cup was one of the few competitions televised and provided something a little bit special.

Of course all this lack of interest really comes from the larger clubs and their supporters. There's loads of interest in the cup from the lower clubs, unfortunately they sometimes don't have the support to fill out grounds and this comes across badly on TV

bucketybuck

Davidth88 wrote: »

Is it cost ? , or pure fatigue or a combination of both .

Fatigue is the real reason.

From a TV perspective live football used to be relatively rare, you looked forward to the live FA cup games because you didn't see many games at all. Then Sky came along and now theres one every weekend. Then the champions league expanded and you have big European games every week.

Fast forward ten years later and with streaming on the internet I can watch a live game every single day. Just on the Premier league alone I could watch Soccer Saturday, then the late Saturday game, then the Sunday morning game, followed by the Sunday 4pm game, and on Monday the 8pm game. Then there are Tuesday champions league game, the Wednesday champions league game, and now there are rumors of Friday night games Premier league games in the pipeline.

We are saturated with football, so is it any real surprise that its harder to get excited about any individual game? If you stuff your face with chocolate all year it becomes harder to get excited about Easter eggs, its just human nature.

Its also the reason a European super league would be such a horrible idea. Ten years of the so-called big clubs just playing each other and people will stop caring about those games too.

GavRedKing

Davidth88 wrote: »

Is it cost ? , or pure fatigue or a combination of both . I suppose it hasn't helped that so many of the Premier league clubs put out second string 11's , almost treating this as a friendly.

What do people think , is there still magic is what was a great comp , or has this become the league cup ( or whatever it's called this week ) mk 2 ?

Fatigue is a huge factor now a days, with the christmas schedule, the 3rd round falls right after a run of 3 games in 11-13days.

Its the same for every team and as ya mentioned, the bigger teams usually make half a dozen changes to their 1st team anyway.

Like most domestic cups, it only gets interesting when the latter stages come around or when your team has got a bigger team.

I think its still a step up from the Leageu Cup but the Semi Finals at Wembley is something that still annoys me.

The FA wont change that when theyre making money off Wembley semi finals but if the reverted to Semi finals to other grounds e.g. Old Trafford (north) and the Emirates (south) that would make it a little bit different and save a day out to Wembley as something a little bit special, it wont happen though.

ArmaniJeanss

I thinks it good that its slipped down the pecking order, it was never healthy that a competition so hugely luck based had such importance in the psyche of fans.

As to why, would agree with the reasons given though also think the concept of season tickets was a small factor. Back when you paid cash/bought a ticket for every game then it wasn't a big issue to do likewise for the cup. Now having paid for your season ticket in August its a bit annoying to have to pay in to a game in January when broke post Christmas.

Sir Gallagher

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Back in 1999 ManU were allowed skip the Cup because of the World Club Cup.

That was pretty much confirmation from the FA that it was not the blue riband event any longer.

That was simply a disgrace to be honest, should never have happened.

Cantona's Collars

To teams scrapping for points near the foot of the EPL table and those pushing for promotion from The Championship,the Cup is now seen as an unwelcome hindrance.Look at all the changes made by these clubs for the games at the weekend.
TV scheduling hasn't helped with games being spread out from Friday to Tuesday.There was something about a cup Saturday with loads of games on and shocks being reported from around the grounds.
Even looking at Arsenal last season,the team seemed happier to win the race for 4th than the cup.Clubs chase the money & that's not in in the Cup.

We had the Beeb telling us of the "magic of the cup" all over Xmas but that's a fairytale,the only magic is parochial among the minnows who dream of a tie or a result against a Premier League giant,do the bigger teams or those with more important priorities care? I think not.

Lovely Bloke

GavRedKing wrote: »

Fatigue is a huge factor now a days, with the christmas schedule, the 3rd round falls right after a run of 3 games in 11-13days.

was this not always the case?

Oranage2

It only seemed magical because we were younger, it was also the only matches that you could watch on tv without the fancy sport packages back then. Look at pool, united, arsenal and Chelsea, all fielded extremely strong teams the other night.

The nostalgia and over saturation of football now just made it seem 'magical'

Optimalprimerib

Now the fact that you need a sports package to watch them is going to kill the competition even further.

I pray for a Netflix style subscription service to watch the sports at a reasonable price. I also pray fir spurs to win the premier league. Which will happen first?

Harry Palmr

Mid level Prem League clubs supporters don't care, but the big clubs stadiums are full (or as good as) while further down the pyramid the minnows always draw the crowds even if they are playing a non glamour tie. The real issue is in the mid-range unless there happens to be local pride to play for. Burnley drew 9,000 for Spurs but average 19,000 in the League. Millwall v Bradford 5,500 in a 20,000 capacity stadium which usually is half full.

cashback

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I thinks it good that its slipped down the pecking order, it was never healthy that a competition so hugely luck based had such importance in the psyche of fans.

Why?

That's what makes the competition interesting. That the likes of Wigan, Wimbledon or Portsmouth can win is a lot to do with luck. Would you rather a competition where only Chelsea or City win every year? I'm an Arsenal fan but I love that smaller teams always have a chance in the cup, though that's becoming more of a thing of the past.

SEPT 23 1989

As a city fan it was magic because it was the only major trophy we could have dreamed of winning since i started supporting them in the late 80's

the build up on the BBC on cup final days at the old wembley are great childhood memories

sky88

i think this year with monday and tuesday it takes away so much of it felt strange that there was so little games on saturday

Mint Sauce

Has the restrictions on televising games at 3pm on a Saturday, also had an impact I wonder.

acquiescefc

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

Now the fact that you need a sports package to watch them is going to kill the competition even further.

I pray for a Netflix style subscription service to watch the sports at a reasonable price. I also pray fir spurs to win the premier league. Which will happen first?

A lot of the football league clubs are signed to an awful 'player' service. I know our club is shackled to them until 2017. Cant change anything until then

El Weirdo

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Has the restrictions on televising games at 3pm on a Saturday, also had an impact I wonder.

Considering that the restriction has been in place since the 60s, I doubt it.

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I thinks it good that its slipped down the pecking order, it was never healthy that a competition so hugely luck based had such importance in the psyche of fans.

cashback wrote: »

Why?

That's what makes the competition interesting. That the likes of Wigan, Wimbledon or Portsmouth can win is a lot to do with luck. Would you rather a competition where only Chelsea or City win every year? I'm an Arsenal fan but I love that smaller teams always have a chance in the cup, though that's becoming more of a thing of the past.

Not at all, I've no problem with Wigan etc winning it and I enjoy the cup for what it is now. And like you also love the lower div teams getting a 'cup run'.
I just never thought it was right that winning the cup was in many ways seen as nearly the equal of winning the league, when its such a luck based competition.

KevIRL

Run the league cup off fully before Xmas. Run the fa cup as a midweek cup post Xmas with no replays but final on a Saturday.Much better solution

Optimalprimerib

acquiescefc wrote: »

A lot of the football league clubs are signed to an awful 'player' service. I know our club is shackled to them until 2017. Cant change anything until then

What is the player service? How does it work?

Collie D

It has definitely gone down in stature all right but still see it as a bigger trophy than Europa League - although that may change now the winner of the latter competition gets into Champions' League.

Still a competition I like and even love watching the draw - sometimes even more than the actual matches. Like most I would imagine, I love a good upset in the Cup. Very few the weekend just gone but thought the Wimbledon v Liverpool game was very entertaining - a reminder of why I loved the competition in my younger years.

NIMAN

The FA Cup is dead to the big teams, means a little bit to the middle of the road teams (who are more concerned with avoiding relegation) and maybe still a lot to the non-league or lower division teams, especially if they draw a famous name.

I'd love to win a trophy this season tbh. It'd give me a bigger buzz than finishing 4th

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

The FA Cup is dead to the big teams, means a little bit to the middle of the road teams (who are more concerned with avoiding relegation) and maybe still a lot to the non-league or lower division teams, especially if they draw a famous name.

and yet "big" teams almost always win it..

Seans_Username

There was a pretty good discussion with Dion Fanning on Newstalk (skip to 9 minutes) and he gave different reasons for the magic being lost from the competition - many of which have already been said here.

However, things like this do showcase why the cup is so special. Akinfenwa talks about being a childhood liverpool supporter and how the players lined up after the game to get pics with the liverpool players

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJirxV0Azqw

bucketybuck

rarnes1 wrote: »

and yet "big" teams almost always win it..

Are you trying to make a point here?

Because the big teams also tend to be the better teams, I would've thought that was obvious?

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

Are you trying to make a point here?

Because the big teams also tend to be the better teams, I would've thought that was obvious?

I was replying to another poster who said the cup was dead to the big teams.

I replied saying it was hardly dead to them when they seem to win most seasons.

That_Guy

The "magic" is gone for me and has been since top brass at Newcastle went on record stating that the league is and always will be priority.

Haven't been past the 3rd round in 3 years.

Newcastle aside, I used to love the FA Cup. In many ways I still do but having fixtures from Friday - Tuesday is nonsense. And some of the fixtures chosen are utter crap. West Ham V Everton... Riveting.

I feel that lower league teams should be getting some TV time. The Blyth/Birmingham game would have been a great game to show (obviously in hindsight).

While I didn't particularly like a lot of their presenters, credit to ESPN a few years ago who had all day coverage before the kick off. However, with a Premier League game before what should be the showcase fixture of that weekend, it's just passed off as another game but with a trophy at the end of it.

I really want to see a return to neutral grounds during the semi-finals. It's just awful having a team playing in Wembley for those games. The buzz is sucked out of it for fans I feel.

Harry Palmr

Look at the starting 11s for the so called big teams.

http://int.soccerway.com/matches/2015/01/04/england/fa-cup/arsenal-fc/hull-city-afc/1973861/?ICID=PL_MS_28

http://int.soccerway.com/matches/2015/01/04/england/fa-cup/chelsea-football-club/watford-football-club/1973887/?ICID=PL_MS_27

http://int.soccerway.com/matches/2015/01/04/england/fa-cup/yeovil-town-fc/manchester-united-fc/1973890/?ICID=PL_MS_26

http://int.soccerway.com/matches/2015/01/05/england/fa-cup/afc-wimbledon/liverpool-fc/1973866/?ICID=PL_MS_30

http://int.soccerway.com/matches/2015/01/04/england/fa-cup/manchester-city-football-club/sheffield-wednesday-fc/1973867/?ICID=PL_MS_24

http://int.soccerway.com/matches/2015/01/05/england/fa-cup/burnley-fc/tottenham-hotspur-football-club/1973878/?ICID=PL_MS_29

Pretty respectful I'd say.

bucketybuck

rarnes1 wrote: »

I was replying to another poster who said the cup was dead to the big teams.

I replied saying it was hardly dead to them when they seem to win most seasons.

But its clearly possible that its both. The big clubs could not give a shit about the cup and yet still win the thing because they have the best players and the biggest squads.

Pointing out that big clubs tend to win the cups does not really address the claim that the cups are dead to the big clubs.

NIMAN

rarnes1 wrote: »

I was replying to another poster who said the cup was dead to the big teams.

I replied saying it was hardly dead to them when they seem to win most seasons.

They win it because they have to field teams in it and they are so much better than the rest of the muck, thats why.

Do you think Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd really care about the FA Cup? Really?

I'm sure its nice to have another trophy in the cabinet but winning the league, the CL, and finishing in 1st --> 4th are the main things for the big teams these days.

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

But its clearly possible that its both. The big clubs could not give a shit about the cup and yet still win the thing because they have the best players and the biggest squads.

Pointing out that big clubs tend to win the cups does not really address the claim that the cups are dead to the big clubs.

So why do the big clubs not just play their weakest XI?

Surely the likes of Everton and Spurs would compete a bit more if clubs above them couldn't care?

Saying the big clubs do not take the FA cup serious is exaggerated imo and a bit of a cop out for fans of underperforming clubs imo

It's just an excuse for underperforming clubs

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

They win it because they have to field teams in it and they are so much better than the rest of the muck, thats why.

Do you think Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd really care about the FA Cup? Really?

I'm sure its nice to have another trophy in the cabinet but winning the league, the CL, and finishing in 1st --> 4th are the main things for the big teams these days.

Yeah I do hence my argument

Btw, the same Arsenal that nearly went a decade without a trophy last season certainly wanted it

Fr Tod Umptious

Maybe the magic of the cup has gone for us who remember it in the 70s and 80s because we are now well into a adulthood and it's not as important anymore.

But it obviously also has to do with the EPL being more important financially etc.

I remember back in the 90s hearing that AC Milan had been beaten by a least team in the Italian cup and people saying that it was not that important.
At the time Italian football was top dog and league placing was the goal, the very same is true in England now.

Corholio

The lay out of fixtures the last few years hasn't helped, especially this year. When fixtures run from Friday to Tuesday in the FA Cup, there's definitely something lost. There's no real cup 'day' anymore, when you'd check down the results to see if there's any surprises. Now all the possible surprises are mostly bought up for some other part of an extended weekend. Saturday and Sunday are plenty to have the fixtures, but TV has dictated otherwise.

NIMAN

I agree that Wenger wanted to win it badly, only to save his skin, but back in the day he wasn't too fussed about it either. Its only when you're winning nothing else, and show no likelihood of winning anything else, that you will try to win the FA Cup.

You could maybe say Utd will be going for it this year too, as they have no CL to play, and maybe in VG's first season.

But I maintain that over recent years and coming years, Utd/Arsenal and City/Chelsea really don't care that much about it.
I'd also say the 'magic' of the cup was bigger when there were more UK managers and players around, now I don't think that foreigners are so obsessed with the FA Cup as they didn't grow up watching it like the rest of us.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

I agree that Wenger wanted to win it badly, only to save his skin, but back in the day he wasn't too fussed about it either. Its only when you're winning nothing else, and show no likelihood of winning anything else, that you will try to win the FA Cup.

You could maybe say Utd will be going for it this year too, as they have no CL to play, and maybe in VG's first season.

But I maintain that over recent years and coming years, Utd/Arsenal and City/Chelsea really don't care that much about it.
I'd also say the 'magic' of the cup was bigger when there were more UK managers and players around, now I don't think that foreigners are so obsessed with the FA Cup as they didn't grow up watching it like the rest of us.

It's down the list of priorities for some teams for sure. That doesn't mean they don't care about it.

batistuta9

NIMAN wrote: »

I agree that Wenger wanted to win it badly, only to save his skin, but back in the day he wasn't too fussed about it either. Its only when you're winning nothing else, and show no likelihood of winning anything else, that you will try to win the FA Cup.

You could maybe say Utd will be going for it this year too, as they have no CL to play, and maybe in VG's first season.

But I maintain that over recent years and coming years, Utd/Arsenal and City/Chelsea really don't care that much about it.
I'd also say the 'magic' of the cup was bigger when there were more UK managers and players around, now I don't think that foreigners are so obsessed with the FA Cup as they didn't grow up watching it like the rest of us.

97 r4
98 winner
99 semis
00 r4
01 runner up
02 winner
03 winner
04 semis
05 winner

back in the day wenger didn't give a shít about it alright

citytillidie

Corholio wrote: »

The lay out of fixtures the last few years hasn't helped, especially this year. When fixtures run from Friday to Tuesday in the FA Cup, there's definitely something lost. There's no real cup 'day' anymore, when you'd check down the results to see if there's any surprises. Now all the possible surprises are mostly bought up for some other part of an extended weekend. Saturday and Sunday are plenty to have the fixtures, but TV has dictated otherwise.

It had more to do with the premier league keeping the new year days fixtures.

This caused most premier league teams to play on Sunday and took away from Saturday games

Wichita Lineman

I still enjoy the FA Cup and the BBC this year are making a real fist of making it as exciting as they can. I do think certain sections of the media - Dunphy et al - are critical about it now as seen as a fashionable thing to do.

dfx-

Gringo180 wrote: »

Take the Champs Lge spot off 4th place in the league and give it to the F.A cup winners and you would soon see the magic back in it.

Until a relegated Wigan, Birmingham or Portsmouth win the cup. Or the Stoke or Millwall or Bolton near misses in recent years.

And is the magic of the cup the heavyweights desperately fighting it out, I wouldn't have thought so...

Sheepy99

batistuta9 wrote: »

97 r4
98 winner
99 semis
00 r4
01 runner up
02 winner
03 winner
04 semis
05 winner

back in the day wenger didn't give a shít about it alright

Although he could have worded it better than "back in the day", I think he meant from about 06-12 as in the final two years before last May the desperation for a trophy had settled in. As for they fared by round in those seasons, I havn't a clue.

batistuta9

Sheepy99 wrote: »

Although he could have worded it better than "back in the day", I think he meant from about 06-12 as in the final two years before last May the desperation for a trophy had settled in. As for they fared by round in those seasons, I havn't a clue.

No he didn't, sure he said this
Its only when you're winning nothing else, and show no likelihood of winning anything else, that you will try to win the FA Cup.

thing is arsenal had f-all chance of winning anything in those season - 4th place trophy only - and didn't seem to go all out for it, beaten in the semis by chelsea in 09 was as about all worth mentioning from them & getting KO'd at home by blackburn the same season as going out to bradford in the league cup, 12/13 i think it was.

whereas chelsea won 3 or 4 in the same period haven't they.

though i do agree with him that the teams at the top of the PL don't care about it as much any more.
win it if they can but it'd probably be 4th on their list of targets.

perhaps a case of teams at the top having the better squads to go further & winning and everything else mentioned by others, money especially for staying in the PL/getting to it/difference in budgets greater than before between divisions.
since they're usually blamed in football matters, i haven't seen sky mentioned yet, maybe if they got at years ago they would've kept up the hype around it.

& see his point mentioning foreigners, what does a cup mean in italy, spain? pochet... at southampthon last season being a good example of it.