Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

tomasrojo

Orion wrote: »

Overall trend is certainly down. The graph below shows it to 2013. There was a spike in 2014 of 12 cyclists. Then down again to 9 in 2015.

It has to be said that with very small numbers you can't really expect smooth trends. So the "spikes" that the RSA and the media tend to look at are really hard to distinguish from statistical noise. Only the long-term trend is really meaningful.

Still, doesn't stop the RSA and the media saying things like cycling "is dangerous and getting more dangerous", based on the very numbers in that graph (plus one more year).

(In 2011, the RSA did not have a media campaign saying that cycling fatalities had dropped to five in 2010 from fifteen three years earlier, and therefore cycling was safe and getting safer.)

Jawgap

buffalo wrote: »

Not to mention we still still don't punish drunk driving with a driving ban of any kind - 3 penalty points? ooh, harsh!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/female-drunk-driver-arrested-following-damage-to-parked-cars-1.2632299

Actually, I think if you 'fess up when you are caught driving under the influence and opt for the 'Fixed Charge' - it's €200 and an automatic 6 month ban......

......or you can tell them to stuff their Fixed Charge and head to down to the DC to play for the really big prizes!

roverrules

ronoc wrote: »

Should reckless cycling be condoned? Absolutely not.

But lets not kid ourselves that these fines are anything to do with cycle safety. They are punishment for not following the rules of the road.
The rules of the road and the infrastructure which were designed designed with the motor car in mind.

In transport policy the car is king and you as a cyclist are expected to behave like one even though in almost every way you are different.

The response to rising bike fatalities, due to increasing bike journeys on infrastructure designed for cars, was something akin to victim blaming. Fine the rogue cyclists!

I'm sorry but if we want to use the roads then the rules have to apply to us as well. You can't just decide that becuse we aren't motorised that we shouldn't be subject to the laws of the road.

magicbastarder

i've talked to two gardai (albeit before the FPN regime came in) and both thought that the notion of garda resources being used to chase cyclists was a waste of time and money. i wonder how (or if) the FPN regime has changed their attitude.

tomasrojo

The usual statistics question comes to mind about these six hundred FPNs: is that a big number? How many motorists were issued fines in the same period, and can you adjust for the greater number of motorists and for the greater number of motoring offences that attract FPNs?

Even after all that you find that cyclists get a lot of fines, you are left with different interpretations. If cyclists are issued a disproportionate number of fines, is it because they are more prone to law-breaking, easier to catch, or just an outsider group that police like to target somewhat more than, say, car-drivers?

Not sure how you disentangle that ball of wool.

(Still, as all official cycling advocates say, don't break red lights, please.)

magicbastarder

tomasrojo wrote: »

The usual statistics question comes to mind about these six hundred FPNs: is that a big number? How many motorists were issued fines in the same period, and can you adjust for the greater number of motorists and for the greater number of motoring offences that attract FPNs?

and what is the payoff of the fines? is there any analysis of how it might change cyclist behaviour?

ED E

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've talked to two gardai (albeit before the FPN regime came in) and both thought that the notion of garda resources being used to chase cyclists was a waste of time and money. i wonder how (or if) the FPN regime has changed their attitude.

AGS are not the people to be asking here. They have a problematic mindset where most things are "ahh thats not worth our time" and they pursue only the big three or four. Then Joe public says "I'll only be a minute" and parks on a traffic Island. The Gardai should enforce every offence they see, no walking past 20 cars in a QBC. If the police won't take a law seriously the public never will.

magicbastarder wrote: »

and what is the payoff of the fines? is there any analysis of how it might change cyclist behaviour?

This legislation should have included a "left on red" rule for cyclists and motorbikes. You'd exclude a large portion of those FCPNs in one swoop.

Kaisr Sose

2RockMountain wrote: »

The vast majority of motorists know well that the chances of being caught breaking a light or using the phone are tiny.

I agree with that.

There are far more 'Rogues' in motor vehicles, running red lights, turning without indicating, with non-conforming reg plates desgned to avoid number plate recognition technology, parking where they like, etc etc. than rogue cyclists!

So who is the bigger or more dangerous rogue on the road and where should the resources, money and focus go to change behaviour? For example, technology to catch the red light jumpers/runners is widely used in many countries but not here...

We're it deployed, the number of motorists caught by this technology would certainly make for good 'Rogue' headlines...

Tenzor07

I'm with Cuffe on this one!

Dangerous driving
“I would like to see more done to tackle dangerous driving,” Mr Cuffe said.
“We know from the Road Safety Authority that a vast number of cars routinely break speed limits and park in cycle lanes and on footpaths, and perhaps more focus should be placed on that.”
RSA spokesman Brian Farrell agreed more could be done to police the speed limits, “particularly in urban areas to make them safer for both cyclists and pedestrians ”.
Mr Cuffe said while cyclists should obey the rules of the road, the fact remained they were at much greater risk than other road users and “99 times out of 100 it is the cyclist who is going to be hurt in an accident”.
“I also think gardaí need to do more to encourage cycling and maybe they should not be putting so much effort into catching errant cyclists and concentrate on getting their own house in order.
“Far too often they park in cycle lanes so they can nip into a local Centra. I don’t say that lightly. It is a fact and they should be leading by example.”

Tony EH

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've talked to two gardai (albeit before the FPN regime came in) and both thought that the notion of garda resources being used to chase cyclists was a waste of time and money. i wonder how (or if) the FPN regime has changed their attitude.

Most won't and don't bother. It'll depend on who you get that day. If they are of a mind to, or maybe fresh out of Templemore, then they might decide to persue the issue. It'll come down to the practicality of such.

Frankly, it's such a non issue the vast majority of the time, most gardai won't even register it. They have more important things to do.

Of course, if some clown is plowing through something like a pedestrian crossing while people are using it, that would quite rightly change matters and I'd expect the Guards to take it seriously.

Lemming

tomasrojo wrote: »

The usual statistics question comes to mind about these six hundred FPNs: is that a big number? How many motorists were issued fines in the same period, and can you adjust for the greater number of motorists and for the greater number of motoring offences that attract FPNs?

You made a paraphrased quote from RTE earlier in this thread about the corresponding numbers of motorists issued speeding fines in the same period as those 600 FPNs were issued, which was circa 20,000. Whilst it's not a definitive number, it would suggest that 600 FPNs is a fraction of fines & penalties dolled out to motorists within a similar time-frame. If that's circa 20,000 speeding fines alone, then when you add in every other possible type of road-offense for which motorists are penalised, the number is likely to exceed 20,000 by a considerable margin.

As it stands, taking 20,000 as our starting point, those 600 FPNs amount to 3% by comparison. Dem darn cyclists!! They'll kill us all, won't someone please think of our childrens childrens children!!! etc.

roverrules

roverrules wrote: »

I'm sorry but if we want to use the roads then the rules have to apply to us as well. You can't just decide that becuse we aren't motorised that we shouldn't be subject to the laws of the road.

No but I don't think there is any harm point out how silly the policy situation is.

Cycling is on the increase in the city. Instead of some new initiatives to make it safer or increase capacity one of the only policy changes were more fines.

2RockMountain

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually, I think if you 'fess up when you are caught driving under the influence and opt for the 'Fixed Charge' - it's €200 and an automatic 6 month ban......

......or you can tell them to stuff their Fixed Charge and head to down to the DC to play for the really big prizes!

Or the really small ones, as seems to have been the case in the example given.

roverrules

ronoc wrote: »

No but I don't think there is any harm point out how silly the policy situation is.

Cycling is on the increase in the city. Instead of some new initiatives to make it safer or increase capacity one of the only policy changes were more fines.

And if there are more road users then it becomes even more important that people stick to the regulations otherwise its just anarchy. How many times have you overtaken someone, stopped at a red light for them to nonchalantly pull up past the stop line in front of you ( if they stop at all ). nessecitating you overtaking them again.

kazamo

577 Fixed Notice Charges issued in five and a half months.
Less than one a week per county.

Jawgap

2RockMountain wrote: »

Or the really small ones, as seems to have been the case in the example given.

That wasn't a court imposed sanction.

Presumably she was arrested, taken to the station and opted to be dealt with administratively and met the criteria for same......

roverrules

Jawgap wrote: »

That wasn't a court imposed sanction.

Presumably she was arrested, taken to the station and opted to be dealt with administratively and met the criteria for same......

Does the experienced drivers not exceeding 80mg per 100ml of blood etc. now mean we have a defacto 0 limit, or what is the level before you fail?

tomasrojo

Lemming wrote: »

You made a paraphrased quote from RTE earlier in this thread about the corresponding numbers of motorists issued speeding fines in the same period as those 600 FPNs were issued, which was circa 20,000. Whilst it's not a definitive number, it would suggest that 600 FPNs is a fraction of fines & penalties dolled out to motorists within a similar time-frame. If that's circa 20,000 speeding fines alone, then when you add in every other possible type of road-offense for which motorists are penalised, the number is likely to exceed 20,000 by a considerable margin.

As it stands, taking 20,000 as our starting point, those 600 FPNs amount to 3% by comparison. Dem darn cyclists!! They'll kill us all, won't someone please think of our childrens childrens children!!! etc.

I could have misremembered that though. My ability to analyse numbers is good; my ability to remember really quite poor!

Jawgap

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've talked to two gardai (albeit before the FPN regime came in) and both thought that the notion of garda resources being used to chase cyclists was a waste of time and money. i wonder how (or if) the FPN regime has changed their attitude.

de brudder is an inspector in AGS and the de brudder-in-law is a sergeant - both agree that it's a bit of a waste of Garda resources but they do get involved in the occasional clampdown for a bit of PR. It's really only the egregious idiots who get done outside those 'campaign' periods - or put it this way, if you hammer through Five Lamps and the light is red and there's a Garda there you'll get done, if you nip a left on red or breeze through an empty pedestrian crossing, you'll likely not.

Bit disappointing to see that no one seems to have been done for "riding a bicycle without reasonable consideration" namely filtering dangerously - there's probably more to be said for ticketing muppets who do that as a means of improving road safety.

tomasrojo

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

So who is the bigger or more dangerous rogue on the road and where should the resources, money and focus go to change behaviour? For example, technology to catch the red light jumpers/runners is widely used in many countries but not here...

I remember being surprised that they had such a thing in LA. Saw it first in Curb Your Enthusiasm, Larry's protestations that he isn't fixated on women's behinds are undermined by a FPN with screengrab he gets in the post.

Jawgap

roverrules wrote: »

Does the experienced drivers not exceeding 80mg per 100ml of blood etc. now mean we have a defacto 0 limit, or what is the level before you fail?

No, the limit is "50 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood for experience drivers" and "20 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood for other drivers."

Arguable though that this is essentially zero as you'd really be risking it even with a single drink.

2RockMountain

Jawgap wrote: »

That wasn't a court imposed sanction.

Presumably she was arrested, taken to the station and opted to be dealt with administratively and met the criteria for same......

You're probably right, though it does seem outrageous that someone can hit four cars while pi$$ed, and then drive home from the Garda Station to have another go. There should be mandatory disqualification for any drunk driving.

magicbastarder

Jawgap wrote: »

No, the limit is "50 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood for experience drivers" and "20 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood for other drivers."

worth noting that this is a strong argument for carrying your licence with you at all times. because if you don't have it, they will apply the lower limit for testing at the breathalyser.

roverrules

Jawgap wrote: »

No, the limit is "50 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood for experience drivers" and "20 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood for other drivers."

Arguable though that this is essentially zero as you'd really be risking it even with a single drink.

So it should read " exceeding 50 " or " exceeding 20 " somewhere then, which is what I can't see

horsebox7

Anyone see Brendans O'Connors piece on cyclists on last night's cutting edge programme? Not very balanced if you ask me.

check_six

horsebox7 wrote: »

Anyone see Brendans O'Connors piece on cyclists on last night's cutting edge programme? Not very balanced if you ask me.

Didn't see it. Throw us an old synopsis there, please?

DanDublin1982

check_six wrote: »

Didn't see it. Throw us an old synopsis there, please?

Basically it was a bunch of taxi drivers giving out about cyclists.

tomasrojo

Not wishing to be mean, but nobody cares what taxi drivers think about anything usually, so why do they have a monopoly on cycling policy critiques in the media?

seamus

check_six wrote: »

Didn't see it. Throw us an old synopsis there, please?

Within 2 minutes the beardy hipster on the panel claimed that cyclists suffer from an excess of "smugness".

That should be more than enough for you to judge the intellectual level of the discussion that was to be had.

I turned it off after that.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Within 2 minutes the beardy hipster on the panel claimed that cyclists suffer from an excess of "smugness".

That should be more than enough for you to judge the intellectual level of the discussion that was to be had.

I turned it off after that.

I sometimes wonder about the possibility of a national 'cycling strike'. Basically anyone who usually cycles to work in the morning gets in the car instead or calls a taxi.

Theoretical result - gridlock.

Message - you'll miss us when we're gone.

magicbastarder

i wonder are there any guesstimates for how many cars there are on the roads in dublin at any one time.

horsebox7

Yes. I was getting fond of the show but not after that weak discussion. The only argument in favour of cyclists came right at the end when the woman from the Pogues siad it was just too dangerous for her. Comon Brendan! Whatever happend to the concept of balanced debate.

DanDublin1982

horsebox7 wrote: »

Yes. I was getting fond of the show but not after that weak discussion. The only argument in favour of cyclists came right at the end when the woman from the Pogues siad it was just too dangerous for her. Comon Brendan! Whatever happend to the concept of balanced debate.

He's a terrible presenter [for this type of show].

He basically dismissed Chris Donohue earlier in the show because he didn't have kids and then dismissed him again when he suggested taxi drivers were hardly saints themselves. Personally I had to leave the cycle lane three times this morning to go around taxis picking up or dropping off fares. It's all our fault though.

tomasrojo

Does anyone ever appear on a show where they're discussing cycling and say something like "I cycle all the time, and I find it pretty pleasant overall and usually not dangerous at all." Because any time I say this, with occasional exceptions, I get incredulous reactions. And yet, it's true.

Chips Lovell

Watching Brendan O'Connor is like asking to be kicked in the b****x and then complaining about it.

Tony EH

Agreed. Total moron.

Don't know what anyone sees in the git at all.

tomasrojo

His "canny, savvy people are buying houses now" article in the Sindo as nuclear charges erupted through the housing market is a classic of self-serving nonsense. His comic monologues at the start of his old chat show were very poorly delivered (I'm giving his a pass on the content, as I assume he didn't write them). But I did think that, the odd time I saw him interviewing someone, he actually was a rather better interviewer than all the other chat-show hosts at RTÉ. Damning with faint praise, maybe.

Macy0161

tomasrojo wrote: »

Not wishing to be mean, but nobody cares what taxi drivers think about anything usually, so why do they have a monopoly on cycling policy critiques in the media?

Because asking a taxi driver is about all the research any of the hacks do when it comes to cycling.

Actually, it's probably all issues/ stories, not just cycling that there's poor research or a lack of balance. Whenever you know anything about a story or issue in the news, you can normally see how poor the research has been and/or how much they've been influenced by one side of the debate. There's very little balance in the media, you just don't realise until it's a subject you have even a small bit of knowledge about!

Tony EH

Feckin gas.

Asking taxi drivers about cyclists. Bloody taxi drivers!!! People who regularly stink up the city with their red light jumping, illegal u-turns, guerrilla parking and whole host of other driving malaise are not the folk who should be getting asked about cyclists.

Taxi drivers!

:pac:

Roadhawk

Deleted User wrote: »

I sometimes wonder about the possibility of a national 'cycling strike'. Basically anyone who usually cycles to work in the morning gets in the car instead or calls a taxi.

Theoretical result - gridlock.

Message - you'll miss us when we're gone.

Not really, there are only what 10,000-11,000 cyclist in Dublin? between buses, trains and taxis im sure there wouldnt be much of a difference. A cyclists strike sounds quite inviting. Peaceful city motoring

Roadhawk

Tony EH wrote: »

Feckin gas.

Asking taxi drivers about cyclists. Bloody taxi drivers!!! People who regularly stink up the city with their red light jumping, illegal u-turns, guerrilla parking and whole host of other driving malaise are not the folk who should be getting asked about cyclists.

Taxi drivers!

:pac:

Throwing stones in glass houses...

both parties are equal menaces.

Roadhawk

Roadhawk wrote: »

Not really, there are only what 10,000-11,000 cyclist in Dublin? between buses, trains and taxis im sure there wouldnt be much of a difference. A cyclists strike sounds quite inviting. Peaceful city motoring

according to latest figures 50k cars a day and 10k cyclists commuting in. All completely hypothetica of course,l but if you put 20% on traffic volume you absolutely would experience gridlock.

buffalo

tomasrojo wrote: »

Does anyone ever appear on a show where they're discussing cycling and say something like "I cycle all the time, and I find it pretty pleasant overall and usually not dangerous at all." Because any time I say this, with occasional exceptions, I get incredulous reactions. And yet, it's true.

Because like any argument, the middle ground doesn't make for good tv/radio. Nobody rings Joe Duffy to say "ah Joe, I had a nice walk in the park today".

magicbastarder

buffalo wrote: »

Nobody rings Joe Duffy to say "ah Joe, I had a nice walk in the park today".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9oiO6RVKrU

not technically unsafe for work, but might get some odd looks for coworkers if they see you watching it.

Jawgap

Roadhawk wrote: »

Not really, there are only what 10,000-11,000 cyclist in Dublin? between buses, trains and taxis im sure there wouldnt be much of a difference. A cyclists strike sounds quite inviting. Peaceful city motoring

I think you miss the point that many cyclists would drive. If the 'wrong' day was picked - say a wet December day in the run up to Christmas and in the teeth of the Christmas shopping rush - the marginal impact would be more than enough to tip the city into gridlock.

Actually, looking at the data, it seems the 'best' day for a cycling strike would be the first Monday of the new year when everyone is piling back to work.

Roadhawk

Jawgap wrote: »

I think you miss the point that many cyclists would drive. If the 'wrong' day was picked - say a wet December day in the run up to Christmas and in the teeth of the Christmas shopping rush - the marginal impact would be more than enough to tip the city into gridlock.

Actually, looking at the data, it seems the 'best' day for a cycling strike would be the first Monday of the new year when everyone is piling back to work.

Thanks Jawgap, I have been asked stay quite on this topic unless i decide to contribute in a positive way. Maybe some day but not today.

CramCycle

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually, looking at the data, it seems the 'best' day for a cycling strike would be the first Monday of the new year when everyone is piling back to work.

Day of a LUAS strike would shut Dublin down completely but the point would be missed.

Overall though, while great in theory, I just don't think it would work. Alot of cyclists may not have cars, may not have car parking. I certainly wouldn't take part because cycling to me is a way around such traffic. I certainly would enjoy the lack of bikes to work around though.

I have a creche to get to, I would love it as it would force my partners hand in letting me bring in the little one on the bike that day, and we both love taking the bike.

droidus

Where does this 11,000 figure come from? According to the last census:

As we reported first: 39,000 commuters to work and study in Dublin count themselves mainly as cyclists, up by 26% since 2006. In all of Co Dublin, which includes the four council areas combined, the modal share is at 5%, up from 3.95% in 2006. It accounts for an actual increase of over 8,000 people.

So,you may potentially have another 40,000 in cars or on public transport, which would bring the entire city to a standstill and cripple public transport.

Jawgap

CramCycle wrote: »

Day of a LUAS strike would shut Dublin down completely but the point would be missed.

......

Actually, I'd wait for the inevitable bus and train strikes that will follow the Luas drivers getting their 18%

But, yes, I'd agree it's not a great idea and should be filed under "cutting one's nose to spite one's face" - it may bung up the city, but I'm not sure I want to trade the speed and freedom of the bike to voluntarily sit in a car just to prove a point - as a cyclist I'm, apparently, smug enough already

Anyway, despite the best efforts of certain small but vocal parts of the motoring world, cycling in the city (and the country) continues to grow and thrive - something which will no doubt be helped by this glorious weather.

schemingbohemia

Roadhawk wrote: »

Not really, there are only what 10,000-11,000 cyclist in Dublin? between buses, trains and taxis im sure there wouldnt be much of a difference. A cyclists strike sounds quite inviting. Peaceful city motoring

Nearly as many cyclists go through the Canal Cordon count as Luas users. 11,000 cyclists to 12,000 luas users.
That's between 7 and 10am in November, cycling figures would likely be higher May/June than Luas users.