Now Ye're Talking - to an Insurance Underwriter

Liam McPoyle

Little A wrote: »

Above was to do with NCB & losing it after a few years.

I am currently on a fleet policy, will I lose my no claims after 2 years or will the fact I can prove I have been covered mean I can keep it if I change job?

Also, what do you think about the 2 years for Novice drivers? Will the "N" timeslot affect insurance & (as a professional!) do you think it is a suitable timeframe?

Cheers & very informative!!

Most insurers will allow you the benefit of driving on the fleet. If and when you are moving on what you will require is a letter from your employer to state you were driving on the fleet for X amount of years and a letter from the insurer to confirm you were not involved in any accidents for the duration. Once the driving was concurrent then you should still be able to get the benefit of it however that can be down to an individual insurers discretion.


That Ive seen, the novice driver thing is not a factor. People either have a provisional licence or a full licence. The duration that the person has held a full licence is not taken into account. In the future it may become an issue or a rating factor but at the moment (that Im aware of at least) its not.

The problem with the N drivers is that it doesn't take into account peoples driving experience up to that point. There are many people that are driving for years and years but never got a full licence. I wouldn't consider these individuals to be novice drivers.

When it comes to drivers that are inexperienced, its a good thing and I believe its to protect other road users as opposed to the N driver themselves but for experienced drivers, its a bit pointless imo.

Liam McPoyle

kerry4sam wrote: »

I was going to ask in Motors but sure here you go instead if you don't mind.

Don't want to go into details, however I will say that they were at fault and admitted liability at the scene. I now know they have a young family & do drive for a company for a living and am just curious as to how a claim would impact on their policy? ... the effects of the incident are still on-going.

Many Thanks,
kerry4sam

Firstly, for anyone reading NEVER NEVER NEVER admit liability at the scene of an accident, even if you are completely and utterly at fault, its a matter for your insurance company, they are trained professionals and know how to handle the matters like this, you are leaving yourself and your insurer with your pants down if you admit to being at fault.

The info above is very vague but Im taking it that the driver was driving under their own insurance rather than in a company vehicle?

It wont have any bearing on their job or the insurance for their employer. On their own policy it could result in a loss of bonus (depending on the level of bonus protection they had). If the claim is still outstanding when their renewal comes around they will have to stay with their current insurer as no company will take someone on with an open claim.

Liam McPoyle

FF7 7777 wrote: »

The Brother just mentioned yesterday that when he was pricing around he was actually shocked to see them offer a good price for a change, they are usually hundreds dearer every year.

That's the reason then.

Zurich in general would be fairly consistent with their pricing, good company and a good policy tbh.

Liam McPoyle

mikemac1 wrote: »

The lads I know doing takeaway deliveries don't declare as insurance companies ask about this and it'll raise the premium.

Do claims ever get denied over this for takeaway delivery drivers?

If Mark crashes the car at 10pm in a lamppost with a few deliveries in the back seat how would an insurance company ever know what he was doing? If Mark crashes into another car and the gardai are called and take statements are the insurance company looking for evidence from a report that a driver was working?

Of course claims can be declined, its non disclosure of material fact!!!

If someone buys an insurance policy and doesn't answer all the questions truthfully, then has an accident, the company is well within their rights to decline a claim if they become aware of the omission.

You would be surprised how easy it is for insurance companies to find out what people are up to. If a company thinks a policy holder was up to something they shouldn't have been up to, you can bet your bottom dollar they will do everything to not pay out.

The circumstances of the incident would be required, people tend to get flustered when questioned by the guards and alot of the time will panic and blurt out what they were doing before the crash, all incident reports will be requested by the insurer.

Of course it can be difficult to prove someone was working as a delivery driver if its a single vehicle incident but as I said, you would be surprised how easily companies can get information.

mel.b

Why do many insurance companies refuse to cover or charge more for imports? In all likelihood the cars were made in the same factory but one has a different badge.

Liam McPoyle

mel.b wrote: »

Why do many insurance companies refuse to cover or charge more for imports? In all likelihood the cars were made in the same factory but one has a different badge.

There are a number of reasons for insurers refusing imports.


- The vehicle may have been modified outside of the factory standards

- difficult or costly to source parts or replacements in the event of a loss

- security features may be sub standard such as no immobiliser in place

- the vehicle itself may be sub EU standard in terms of its manufacture

- generally higher powered/higher spec than their Irish counterparts

- very attractive for theft

- import vehicles tend to be the realm of young male drivers, an insurer taking one on can end up exposed when the policy holder adds on little brother or their son

dulpit

I had a (very) low speed crash in Feb 2013, I ran into the back of another car. No damage done to cars, everyone seemed fine and the driver & her husband were lovely about it. A few weeks later a claim comes through from the back seat passenger claiming injury.

Went to insurance, they said they'd look after it, but as I ran into them it'd be unlikely that anything other than a pay out to the person would happen. Claim went in in March 2013, since then the passenger rejected insurance comapny's offer and went to the personal injuries board. After a long time they made their ruling, she rejected that too. Latest information I have is that the case is going to go to court at some stage.

Based on this experience, I have a few questions:

1. How common is this (that you're aware of)? I'm surprised she's willing to go to court, and all it makes me feel is that she's out for a few bob for herself...
2. When accident happened and I got in touch with insurance, they said that when my renewal came (in May) I'd lose no claims, but wouldn't otherwise be penalised. When renewal did come my base premium (i.e. excluding the no claims) was significantly higher, and there was nothing I could do to change (as claim is open). Is this always the case with accidents? That there is an increase of premium as well as a loss of no claims?
3. Because the claim is still open, I'm locked with AA as my insurer until closed. I had been getting policy with Aviva through them, but they (Aviva) no longer offer policies with AA, so I was shifted to RSA. This was over a year after claim went in, so I now had 1 years no claims, but my insruance premium jumped again (by a few hundred euro). Sounds to me like they're trying to get me off their books, but I'm stuck until claim is closed - any suggestions to get around this?
4. When claims go to court and liability is already known (i.e. I drove into them), is there ever a situation where no payment would be made? Or is it a given they'll get paid, and the question is how much?
5. An assessor who called out to me told me that from their point of view in this case, the bump was at such a low speed and with no damage at all done that they don't think/believe that any injury has been done, but they said that they're not in the business of contesting these sort of issues. Does this not make it very easy for anyone to say they're hurt and gouge people for money?
6. On an unrelated note, you mentioned previously about mad pay-outs, who's at fault that these are being awarded? Insurance companies? The claimants? Judges? Mixture?

Cheers!

Clearlier

Any funny claims stories? Fraudulent claims gone wrong? Darwin award type behaviour?

mirrorwall14

What qualifications do you have?

Liam McPoyle

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

What qualifications do you have?

I will answer the 2 questions above this one when I get home. I'm on the touch site and the answers will be quite long and it's a pain in the face writing long answers on the phone!


Re qualifications, job related I'm CIP qualified, that means I'm a certified insurance practitioner, it takes 6 exams to get the qualification.

Next step will be the MDI (management diploma in insurance) and I hope to sit the first one of those this year.

Vito Andolini

A neighbours car went on fire parked up outside his house, when the accessor came out to look over it he told him "your father had a car burn out on him a couple of years ago too." Could that be true that the accessor knew the neighbour swears it is?

chrysagon

Business Cat wrote: »

Mileage may make a difference in premium calculation if its very high eg in excess of 40,000 KM per year however for the average driver it does'nt.

Likewise with asking where the car is kept at night.

The main reason for requesting mileage, where the car is kept and other non rating questions are for use in the event of a claim.

Eg, someone gives their mileage as circa 10k per annum but they clock up 30k. They are involved in an accident. The question must be asked where did the extra mileage come from.

Does their occupation correlate with the miles clocked up?. Ive seen cases where someone would have occupation as student but on the side they were delivering take aways. Delivery drivers are outside of acceptance criteria for most insurers and the way it is, alot of people know that so they take a chance and dont declare it when buying a policy.

The mileage question can help give the insurer a better level of understanding and protection in the event of an accident where there may be a question over liability or when trying to decline a claim that they know happened on a fraudulently obtained policy.

or an opportunity to refuse to pay?

chrysagon

What is the lifetime no claims discount insurance companies offer?..I was told it didnt matter how many claims, it wouldnt affect my policy, so if thats the case, why ask about penalty points?

thanks

Liam McPoyle

Vito Andolini wrote: »

A neighbours car went on fire parked up outside his house, when the accessor came out to look over it he told him "your father had a car burn out on him a couple of years ago too." Could that be true that the accessor knew the neighbour swears it is?

It could be something as simple as the accessor recognising the area / customer.

A more likely scenario is that if the claim that both had was with the same company then the fact they were father and child was likely recorded on their database and as a result the claims were associated by way of the clients.

Liam McPoyle

chrysagon wrote: »

or an opportunity to refuse to pay?

If incorrect information was provided at inception and said information may be a factor in the accident?

Damn right they would try and decline the claim.

Vojera

Hello Business Cat! I have two questions:

1) Has pet insurance ever really taken off in Ireland? I have guinea pigs, so I can't insure them here (they're classed as exotic), but I don't see pet insurance in general advertised as widely as I used to. Is there much interest in the market?

2) Have you ever had a gut feeling about something where everything seemed okay on paper but something felt a bit off? If so, is there anything you can actually do about it?

KrakityJones

Hi,

Interesting reading so far, thanks.

How are people getting away with advertising say 2Litre cars as "1.5 on the log book" - I presume if they insure the car as a 1.5 they are in effect completely uninsured?

And a related question - if you don't declare an aftermarket mod on your car are you equally as "uninsured" - and at what point does this kick in? EG If I change from 16" to 15" wheels or Add a dump valve Vs putting in a cooling system & ecu that bumps up the cars power by 100HP

In short are there a lot of people out there with modified cars that if they are involved in any sort of accident are going to be in serious trouble (For the record I drive a 1.4 renault megane so not in that category but curious as I'd know others who would be)

Falcon L

Business Cat wrote: »

The difficulty can be proving that it actually is a real bonus. Anyone can print something off the internet or get a template and fill in what ever they want themselves. When a bonus comes in from an Irish based insurer its a matter of picking up the phone to check its validity, not easy if it comes from some random European country.


The argument there is that a bonus is earned by one person, one person = one bonus = one vehicle covered. If the industry allowed one bonus to cover more than one vehicle the risk and potential exposure increases exponentially. If there was a named driver on one of the vehicles then essentially 2 vehicles are on the road for one bonus.

There would also be the issue of what would happen in the event of a claim. Do both bonuses get deleted etc.

Thanks for the answers. Just a follow-up if I may.
I had the problem of NCB not being accepted on my return to Ireland. The NCB wasn't from some random country or a dodgy insurance company. The country was a major player in Europe and the insurer was a multi-national that was very happy to take phone calls, in English, to verify the NCB. Still many companies wouldn't accept it.

When I lived elsewhere in Europe (the major player) I had 2 cars insured on 2 policies with my wife named on both. The company accepted my Irish NCB and applied it to both policies. If one of the cars was involved in a 'at fault' claim, the NCB would be affected on the policy of the vehicle involved only.

My feeling is that Irish insurers will come up with any excuse they can think of to screw the client. This, in my experience, doesn't happen in all European countries.

Mars Bar

Business Cat wrote: »

Not just crash for cash but the compensation culture in this country is massive.

Below are a couple of examples of real claims that Ive seen over the last 5 and a half years.


Family staying in a Hotel, some random guy manages to get into the room in the early hours of the morning after having too much to drink. He does'nt do anything other than apologise and get totally embarrassed when the kids start screaming and he leaves the room. Claim for "emotional trauma and distress" against the Hotel, €25,000 paid.

Couple staying in a Hotel, find a used condom in the locker beside one of the beds. €15,000 paid for shock/disgust.

Guy at a wedding, totally hammered, runs out of the Hotel and vaults over a wall and lands on a rock, breaking his femur. Tries and fails to sue the Hotel, ends up suing the farmer whose field he landed in, €48,000 paid.

Guy in a pub, hammered, falls off his stool and ends up fracturing his skull, €400,000 paid out.

Individual that had been caught shop lifting in a supermarket on a number of occasions previously gets approached by the security guard who knows them and their form. Turns out said individual didn't try and steal anything on this occasion but he did manage to get himself €15,000 for the embarrassment of wrongful arrest.

Its all too common that people see insurance fraud (by fraud I mean false and/or exaggerated claims) as a victimless crime but its not as it just ends up costing the average, honest punter extra money. I would have no problem in shopping someone in that I suspected or knew had a dodgy claim.

I have no question. I just want to say that the above post has me fuming!! :mad:

Liam McPoyle

dulpit wrote: »

I had a (very) low speed crash in Feb 2013, I ran into the back of another car. No damage done to cars, everyone seemed fine and the driver & her husband were lovely about it. A few weeks later a claim comes through from the back seat passenger claiming injury.

Went to insurance, they said they'd look after it, but as I ran into them it'd be unlikely that anything other than a pay out to the person would happen. Claim went in in March 2013, since then the passenger rejected insurance comapny's offer and went to the personal injuries board. After a long time they made their ruling, she rejected that too. Latest information I have is that the case is going to go to court at some stage.

Based on this experience, I have a few questions:

1. How common is this (that you're aware of)? I'm surprised she's willing to go to court, and all it makes me feel is that she's out for a few bob for herself...
2. When accident happened and I got in touch with insurance, they said that when my renewal came (in May) I'd lose no claims, but wouldn't otherwise be penalised. When renewal did come my base premium (i.e. excluding the no claims) was significantly higher, and there was nothing I could do to change (as claim is open). Is this always the case with accidents? That there is an increase of premium as well as a loss of no claims?
3. Because the claim is still open, I'm locked with AA as my insurer until closed. I had been getting policy with Aviva through them, but they (Aviva) no longer offer policies with AA, so I was shifted to RSA. This was over a year after claim went in, so I now had 1 years no claims, but my insruance premium jumped again (by a few hundred euro). Sounds to me like they're trying to get me off their books, but I'm stuck until claim is closed - any suggestions to get around this?
4. When claims go to court and liability is already known (i.e. I drove into them), is there ever a situation where no payment would be made? Or is it a given they'll get paid, and the question is how much?
5. An assessor who called out to me told me that from their point of view in this case, the bump was at such a low speed and with no damage at all done that they don't think/believe that any injury has been done, but they said that they're not in the business of contesting these sort of issues. Does this not make it very easy for anyone to say they're hurt and gouge people for money?
6. On an unrelated note, you mentioned previously about mad pay-outs, who's at fault that these are being awarded? Insurance companies? The claimants? Judges? Mixture?

Cheers!

Terrible situation to find yourself in mate an all too common.

1) Going as far as court proceedings, while not unheard of, is surprising considering the relatively low impact speed and the fact that no other occupants are claiming. On the surface of it, it does sound like this person is on a money making endeavor. All you can is ride it out and hope that a judge with a bit of common sense hears the case.

2) Sounds like they applied a claims loading to your policy. A claims loading is basically an extra penalty imposed on drivers that claim. Its not unheard of but again, given the circumstances of the accident its very harsh. They are unfortunately well within their rights to do this.

3) The only possibility for you would be to contact Aviva directly at your next renewal date. As they were insurer concerned at the time of the incident then theoretically they should be able to offer you a quote. Now that quote could be through the roof so there are no guarantees. Failing that, all you can do is wait for the claim to be settled and move on then.

4) Ive heard of instances where claims have been thrown out by a judge on the back of the evidence presented. That would be a rarity though as in general, if it gets that far, the injured parties solicitor would be fairly confident of getting a result.

5) Yep. I remember a number of years ago, long before I worked in insurance, I was in my home town on a Friday afternoon and the traffic was literally bumper to bumper. A guy in a lorry had a momentary lapse of concentration and the lorry jerked forward into the back of a crewcab. There was no more than 4 or 5 inches between both vehicles before the incident, the crewcab itself didnt budge or collide with the vehicle in front of it yet lo and behold, everyone in the crewcab started wailing in pain and all 5 refused to exit the vehicle until the ambulances were called and they were carted off to hospital.

The above, and your own situation is why the insurance market in Ireland is so screwy. People making false or exaggerated claims in the hopes of making a few quid. Unfortunately with the likes of back injuries, neck injuries, whiplash etc it is damn near impossible to prove or disprove the existence of injuries of this type and invariably the benefit of the doubt goes in favor of the "injured" party.

6) The large payouts are a difficult one to call tbh. Invariably they arise as the result of a fatality or an accident that resulted in catastrophic, life altering injuries.

There was a case a couple of years ago where some poor child ended up with a horrendous brain injury after his mother crashed the car and the judge awarded something in the region of €10,000,000.

In situations like that its up to the judge to decide how much gets paid out, with the help of medical reports, detailed actuarial reports and witness testimony.

What needs to be taken into account includes

- Level of care required
- Modifications to home, car, medical bills, equipment etc
- Loss of earnings
- Life expectancy of the injured party

So using the example cited above, that young man could realistically live into his 50's, 60's or more.

He needs to be compensated for all of the above, for the loss of quality of life, for life time care etc.

Its extremely difficult to put a "fair" figure on cases like this.






****Caveat****

Anything Im posting about specific cases is purely my opinion only based on what was reported in the media, Im not connected with any of them in any way.

mel.b

Business Cat wrote: »

There are a number of reasons for insurers refusing imports.


- The vehicle may have been modified outside of the factory standards

- difficult or costly to source parts or replacements in the event of a loss

- security features may be sub standard such as no immobiliser in place

- the vehicle itself may be sub EU standard in terms of its manufacture

- generally higher powered/higher spec than their Irish counterparts

- very attractive for theft

- import vehicles tend to be the realm of young male drivers, an insurer taking one on can end up exposed when the policy holder adds on little brother or their son

Thanks. Other than not having an immobiliser (not that I know of anyway!) none of the above apply to me. Bit frustrating really, but thanks for the insight.

Liam McPoyle

Clearlier wrote: »

Any funny claims stories? Fraudulent claims gone wrong? Darwin award type behaviour?

I will give one funny one and a cringey one.

A guy was working as a delivery driver for a courier/haulage company. While on his rounds he got caught short in need of the crapper so hopped into the back of the van and took a dump in a container of some description.

He went on his merry way and continued with his deliveries. Upon returning home he gets a call from one of the places he had delivered too. The numpty only went and left the container of his poo on top of the delivery and dropped it at some companies warehouse. Instead of apologizing and going to retrieve the offending item he told them it wasnt his problem as he was finished for the day. The company naturally rang the guys employer to complain and it resulted in yer man being suspended pending investigation.

Yer man then proceeded to bring a claim against his employer because he had a medical condition that effected his bowel movements and he said that he was been discriminated against because of that and the stress of been suspended had caused his condition to worsen!


The cringey one involved a member of the clergy and certain lifestyle club in Dublin city centre. Said clergy man, while in the club doing God knows what, ends up having a heart attack. Rather than risking been found in the establishment he asked that he be brought outside and left in an alleyway beside it and an ambulance called. Nothing came of it but the club had to fill out an incident report for the purposes of disclosure which is where I saw it.

Liam McPoyle

chrysagon wrote: »

What is the lifetime no claims discount insurance companies offer?..I was told it didnt matter how many claims, it wouldnt affect my policy, so if thats the case, why ask about penalty points?

thanks

Im not sure what you mean?

Claims and penalty points are 2 separate things.

Most insurers will allow a driver up to 4 penalty points before applying a loading/additional premium for the points, points have no bearing on bonus protection and vice versa.

I dont know what you are asking tbh.

shedweller

Falcon L wrote: »

Thanks for the answers. Just a follow-up if I may.
I had the problem of NCB not being accepted on my return to Ireland. The NCB wasn't from some random country or a dodgy insurance company. The country was a major player in Europe and the insurer was a multi-national that was very happy to take phone calls, in English, to verify the NCB. Still many companies wouldn't accept it.

When I lived elsewhere in Europe (the major player) I had 2 cars insured on 2 policies with my wife named on both. The company accepted my Irish NCB and applied it to both policies. If one of the cars was involved in a 'at fault' claim, the NCB would be affected on the policy of the vehicle involved only.

My feeling is that Irish insurers will come up with any excuse they can think of to screw the client. This, in my experience, doesn't happen in all European countries.

My wife worked with an aussie girl a while back (here in ireland)and the irish insurance company loaded her premium because she had a car stereo stolen from when she was back in australia a few years before. They wouldnt accept her ncb from australia either!
Whats the reason for this? It smacks of having your cake and eating it!

Liam McPoyle

Vojera wrote: »

Hello Business Cat! I have two questions:

1) Has pet insurance ever really taken off in Ireland? I have guinea pigs, so I can't insure them here (they're classed as exotic), but I don't see pet insurance in general advertised as widely as I used to. Is there much interest in the market?

Hello Vojera!

Pet insurance is very niche with very few companies providing it. It would be in general best suited for people with pure bred animals, show dogs etc. I cant see it ever taking off in any meaningful way in Ireland.

Vojera wrote: »

2) Have you ever had a gut feeling about something where everything seemed okay on paper but something felt a bit off? If so, is there anything you can actually do about it?

Absolutely.

There were many instances when I used to work as a call centre agent that the person I was speaking to was giving all the right answers but I knew there was something not quite right. In cases like that we wouldn't refuse to quote them however we would request a manual proposal form be sent in with copies of licences, proof of bonus, valid NCT and any other relevant paper work.

In all my time, I only ever saw one manual proposal form getting returned and that was from a guy that was on the up and up, but had just been unlucky.

swht

I hear conflicting reports about insurers paying out for own damage claims by an unaccompanied learner driver, in your experience is an insurer likely to pay out?

Vito Andolini

I've another one! A couple of years ago I got a quote on insurance on a car, when I rang back to go ahead with the policy I asked how much to put my wife on the policy the quote came down in price, I didn't ask why but wondered ever since.

BlatentCheek

In motor insurance if someone had an accident as a named driver on another policy, for which the policyholder claimed, but took the claims question on the proposal form literally and answered that they have not made any claims would this affect cover?

Liam McPoyle

KrakityJones wrote: »

Hi,

Interesting reading so far, thanks.

How are people getting away with advertising say 2Litre cars as "1.5 on the log book" - I presume if they insure the car as a 1.5 they are in effect completely uninsured?

And a related question - if you don't declare an aftermarket mod on your car are you equally as "uninsured" - and at what point does this kick in? EG If I change from 16" to 15" wheels or Add a dump valve Vs putting in a cooling system & ecu that bumps up the cars power by 100HP

In short are there a lot of people out there with modified cars that if they are involved in any sort of accident are going to be in serious trouble (For the record I drive a 1.4 renault megane so not in that category but curious as I'd know others who would be)

If someone knowingly insures a 2l car as a 1.5l then they are attempting to defraud the insurer. In the event of a claim if the details came to light the insurer would decline the claim and if there was a third party involved, they would cover those damages but seek recovery from their own insured. For all intents and purposes they are uninsured.

When it comes to declaring modifications to a car, what insurers want to know about is things that either alter its performance or alter it mechanically from its factory fresh counterpart.

Things like bigger wheels or a body kit are merely cosmetic changes and do not effect the cars performance. A lowered suspension of adding a turbo to the engine are performance based/mechanical changes and therefore should be disclosed to the insurance company.

Liam McPoyle

Falcon L wrote: »

Thanks for the answers. Just a follow-up if I may.
I had the problem of NCB not being accepted on my return to Ireland. The NCB wasn't from some random country or a dodgy insurance company. The country was a major player in Europe and the insurer was a multi-national that was very happy to take phone calls, in English, to verify the NCB. Still many companies wouldn't accept it.

When I lived elsewhere in Europe (the major player) I had 2 cars insured on 2 policies with my wife named on both. The company accepted my Irish NCB and applied it to both policies. If one of the cars was involved in a 'at fault' claim, the NCB would be affected on the policy of the vehicle involved only.

My feeling is that Irish insurers will come up with any excuse they can think of to screw the client. This, in my experience, doesn't happen in all European countries.

Its nothing to do with screwing the client. Have a read over my posts about claims and loss ratio in this country, there seems to be an opinion that insurance companies are creaming it in terms of income. This really isnt the case.

I do agree we are somewhat behind some other countries in terms of how insurance operates but as I said in one of my first posts, its a small pool of potential customers with large amounts been paid out, the two have to balance as best they can. The market on a whole is trying to adapt but it will be a very very slow process and there is no quick fix.

Setanta entered the market offering lower than average premiums, accepting bonuses up to 3 years expired and offering a lot of things that other companies were not, and they went bust as a result.