Off Topic Thread too point uh

Felix Jones is God

Today will go down in history as the most idiotic decision that England has made in its history, good going chaps, you just fcked yourselves and you're too stupid to realise it!!

thomond2006

I'm shocked.

Felix Jones is God

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

Today will go down in history as the most idiotic decision that England has made in its history, good going chaps, you just fcked yourselves and you're too stupid to realise it!!

Helped no doubt by an absolutely toxic campaign on both sides.

One side screaming "look at all these immigrants" and the other shouting "wow have you seen the size of that shark?".

Never once was anything positive presented by Remain. Nobody in my locality knows what the benefits to remaining would have meant to them. Nobody spoke about the reasons for the EU. Nobody ever mentioned the value accrued to us all by working together and closely so. Nobody falsified the 'democratic deficit' nonsense by explaining how the EU and the Commission works and is elected.

All of it was Fear. Fear of the unknown vs Fear of the immigrants.

And the worst bit is that the latter was scarier for the majority of the population!

Democracy works when we can make informed decisions. That's one of the main reasons we have a representative democracy. We choose people to make decisions for us that are best for us.

Felix Jones is God

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm shocked.

I'm actually not, never underestimate the stupidity of herd mentality .
The youth voted to stay, the large cities voted to stay, the elderly voted en masse to leave
Because of their stupidity, the youth suffer.
Not sure what will happen, but I'm guessing they will still have some associate membership.

swiwi_

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

Today will go down in history as the most idiotic decision that England has made in its history, good going chaps, you just fcked yourselves and you're too stupid to realise it!!

Not. At. All.

I'm sure the Brits will miss bailing out the Greeks...and taking orders from their Franco-German overlords.

I was pro-EU. Then I moved to Switzerland. And I realised what a crock of shìt the whole EU thing is.

Podge_irl

To think this all started as basically an internal Conservative party power play.

Felix Jones is God

swiwi_ wrote: »

Not. At. All.

I'm sure the Brits will miss bailing out the Greeks...and taking orders from their Franco-German overlords.

I was pro-EU. Then I moved to Switzerland. And I realised what a crock of shìt the whole EU thing is.

Couldn't give a fiddlers fck about Switzerland , the land of nazi gold and bent banks
This is a hugely stupid decision made today.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

To think this all started as basically an internal Conservative party power play.

It still is.

They just accidentally won.

sullivlo

swiwi_ wrote: »

Not. At. All.

I'm sure the Brits will miss bailing out the Greeks...and taking orders from their Franco-German overlords.

I was pro-EU. Then I moved to Switzerland. And I realised what a crock of shìt the whole EU thing is.

Switzerland never went into the EU, so they haven't heavily relied on the support from the EU. Britain will have a massive adjustment to make to get used to going solo. Switzerland never had to make that transition.

I'm actually concerned for the welfare of the NHS. What % of front line workers are "immigrants". What will happen if they're forced to leave? Who will fill the roles. Can the UK produce enough graduates in a short space of time to staff the hospitals when people start to leave?

And let's not mention the state of sterling this morning. That £1,000 in the bank yesterday is now only worth £890. Good going Britain.

Great British public my hole.

Podge_irl

swiwi_ wrote: »

Not. At. All.

I'm sure the Brits will miss bailing out the Greeks...and taking orders from their Franco-German overlords.

I was pro-EU. Then I moved to Switzerland. And I realised what a crock of shìt the whole EU thing is.

Gotta say, we have wildly differing viewpoints on this.

The Brits were overwhelmingly often in the majority when it came to voting and the Germans have such control is no small part due to the UK disengaging which is a situation entirely of their own creating.

Switzerland has higher immigration than the UK and now they're in the position of having to restrict it (thanks to yet another silly referendum) without breaking all their trade agreements with the EU. Hell, we're in Schengen and the UK wasn't. Besides, Switzerland is a fairly unique situation that the UK can't exactly try and copy.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

..Besides, Switzerland is a fairly unique situation that the UK can't exactly try and copy.

But dat Gove fella sed dey cud

swiwi_

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

Couldn't give a fiddlers fck about Switzerland , the land of nazi gold and bent banks
This is a hugely stupid decision made today.

Am I supposed to care what you think with your clichés?

Switzerland is routinely mocked by the rest of Europe, meanwhile life here is very good, we want for nothing (except approbation by the EU...), and we just got on with our happy (for some boring) little existence.

I wont start on Ireland and the tax burden that falls on the middle classes...

swiwi_

Podge_irl wrote: »

Gotta say, we have wildly differing viewpoints on this.

The Brits were overwhelmingly often in the majority when it came to voting and the Germans have such control is no small part due to the UK disengaging which is a situation entirely of their own creating.

Switzerland has higher immigration than the UK and now they're in the position of having to restrict it (thanks to yet another silly referendum) without breaking all their trade agreements with the EU. Hell, we're in Schengen and the UK wasn't. Besides, Switzerland is a fairly unique situation that the UK can't exactly try and copy.

Mate you're in Geneva. That's a little country all in itself. In fact, as you well know Podge, Switzerland is basically 26 little countries: rural catholic french-speaking Valais has nothing much in common (except the language) with calvinist urban Geneva.

Felix Jones is God

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But dat Gove fella sed dey cud

But that's the funny thing ! The youth voted to stay! The large cities voted to stay, Scotland voted to stay ..it's the elderly and the English "heartland" that voted to leave
It's a victory for ignorance and bigotry

Felix Jones is God

swiwi_ wrote: »

Am I supposed to care what you think with your clichés?

Switzerland is routinely mocked by the rest of Europe, meanwhile life here is very good, we want for nothing (except approbation by the EU...), and we just got on with our happy (for some boring) little existence.

I wont start on Ireland and the tax burden that falls on the middle classes...

Well, it's just as well I don't care what you think with your anti Eu cliché either now isn't it
I'm so happy you have a great life in Switzerland, happy days lad. But, it's not the same in the UK and we in Ireland are inextricably linked to the UK and it will have a disproportionate negative affect on us too compared to any other country in the EU

English Lurker

The UK can't become Switzerland overnight and without pain. Everyone knows that.

I don't think it can even remain the UK any more. Scotland's desire and case for independence is now probably ironclad.

I started the night thinking I could finally be done with this petty poison and now I find myself shellshocked. It speaks poorly of us as a country and I want no part of it.

Maybe the UK can become a Switzerland but I don't think I'll stick around to find out. Give it 18 months or so and I reckon I'll be requesting that my username be changed to American Lurker. There's simply too many advantages for me in doing so and truth be told, I'm not sure this is my country any more.


edit: Aye, and sorry to you guys, for you're coming down for a swim in the muck with us from the sounds of it.

English Lurker

English Lurker wrote: »

The UK can't become Switzerland overnight and without pain. Everyone knows that.

I don't think it can even remain the UK any more. Scotland's desire and case for independence is now probably ironclad.

I started the night thinking I could finally be done with this petty poison and now I find myself shellshocked. It speaks poorly of us as a country and I want no part of it.

Maybe the UK can become a Switzerland but I don't think I'll stick around to find out. Give it 18 months or so and I reckon I'll be requesting that my username be changed to American Lurker. There's simply too many advantages for me in doing so and truth be told, I'm not sure this is my country any more.


edit: Aye, and sorry to you guys, for you're coming down for a swim in the muck with us from the sounds of it.

As an immigrant in the UK, seeing more than half of the people vote almost exclusively on an anti-immigration ticket (given that the Leave side ceded the economic arguments very very early in the race) has me feeling very uneasy.

Even if there had been zero effect to the economy between leave/remain and such a disparity was shown I'd be feeling strange. But given that the stark and fairly universally accepted consequences economically were spoken about at length, the 17.4m voters who chose that as a cost that they were willing to bear to be a closed shop is even worse.

I am fully aware that in the main, the UK population don't consider Irish people immigrants, but that's only a perception issue, and perhaps displays ignorance (or naivety). I am an immigrant. I emigrated from my country and have adopted the UK as my home. I don't see it staying that way either.

Podge_irl

We have nothing to do with Valais except for funding it with all our immigrants

Obviously Geneva is very different but Geneva is certainly closer to the UK than Valais. Unlikely to see mountains and vineyards popping up in Essex now.

I don't think the EU is necessary to be prosperous (and yes Switzerland proves that) but for the situation the UK is in I don't really see any benefits to leaving. The leave argument was almost entirely empty rhetoric.

connemara man

Switzerland don't really export anything though so it's easier for them to trade with the EU ie just buy in what's needed and go from there. Where the UK would export a lot to Ireland and mainland Europe and would make them worse of. Years of trade talks still having to stick to EU regulations etc...

Cameron gone

connemara man

Will this have an effect on the Irish team. Training camps etc...

And what type of effect will it have on the pro 12?
The English Premiership will be effected their ability to pay mad money gone etc...

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Cameron gone

No option. Regardless of what has gone before, this will be his legacy. When people read history books in 50 years, he will be the man who was PM when the nation elected to leave Europe against his advice.

Felix Jones is God

Add to all this....are the English still allowed do the Euromillions lottery?!

connemara man

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

Add to all this....are the English still allowed do the Euromillions lottery?!

That is the 100 million euro question

thomond2006

I hope Ireland is ready to benefit in any way it can from this.

Felix Jones is God

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

Add to all this....are the English still allowed do the Euromillions lottery?!

**** that. Turf them out of the Euros

Buer

Buer wrote: »

No option. Regardless of what has gone before, this will be his legacy. When people read history books in 50 years, he will be the man who was PM when the nation elected to leave Europe against his advice.

But interestingly, wont be the person invoking Article 50. The next PM gets to cut the guy rope.

awec

Can't believe it.

Irish passport will have to be taken up now.

Buer

awec wrote: »

Can't believe it.

Irish passport will have to be taken up now.

Foreigners out! Go home awec!

Kiwi_knock

The Tories will disintegrate, far too much bitterness on all sides.

Hopefully Scotland will make a break for it.

awec

Today probably marks the beginning of the end for the UK.

errlloyd

Gonna get my brit passport.

I was at an event in a massive multinational financial services company yesterday. Their Irish director suggested they would be moving their HQ out of London if their was a brexit and that Dublin was the prime location to move to. So, we need a building boom.

Buer

awec wrote: »

Can't believe it.

Irish passport will have to be taken up now.

In all seriousness, I've spoken with my mates up in your hometown and they're flabbergasted. They said that around 75% of people they spoke with were voting to remain and, whilst they knew it would be different elsewhere, they never imagined the leave campaign would succeed.

But if you look at the interactive maps of NI, you can see that large swathes of the country voted to depart though, with anything in or around Belfast clearly voting to leave.

awec

Buer wrote: »

In all seriousness, I've spoken with my mates up in your hometown and they're flabbergasted. They said that around 75% of people they spoke with were voting to remain and, whilst they knew it would be different elsewhere, they never imagined the leave campaign would succeed.

But if you look at the interactive maps of NI, you can see that large swathes of the country voted to depart though, with anything in or around Belfast clearly voting to leave.

People have had smoke blown up their arse. EU got blamed for all sorts of nonsense.

Buer

awec wrote: »

People have had smoke blown up their arse. EU got blamed for all sorts of nonsense.

Just checked and the Upper Bann constituency actually voted to leave. That was as far as the leave vote reached.

Someone just told me there that 87% of agricultural grants to NI are from the EU. Mad vote.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Just checked and the Upper Bann constituency actually voted to leave. That was as far as the leave vote reached.

Someone just told me there that 87% of agricultural grants to NI are from the EU. Mad vote.

Interesting discussion on the radio the other week with two farmers from NI. Mother and Son. Mother wanted to remain, Son wanted to leave.

Mother talked about the Grants, subsidies and cash benefit provided to them as being essential and important and unguaranteeable outside of the EU.

Son talked about how those grants, subsidies and cash distorted farming, and that it made for bad practices, lazy farming and that some farmers who would be 'forced to consolidate' otherwise were able to get away with not doing so.

It was interesting to hear someone directly receiving benefit asking for it to be cut off.

I disagreed with a lot of what he was saying, but it was refreshing to hear a different perspective I guess.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Just checked and the Upper Bann constituency actually voted to leave. That was as far as the leave vote reached.

Someone just told me there that 87% of agricultural grants to NI are from the EU. Mad vote.

Upper bann is my constituency. :mad:

Hard to see how the UK stays together now.

Buer

awec wrote: »

Upper bann is my constituency. :mad:

I know.

Dave_The_Sheep

So ... if the North joins back with us, we won't have to play Ireland's Call anymore right?

Fair trade for the billions it'd cost, I suppose.

Dave_The_Sheep

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

So ... if the North joins back with us, we won't have to play Ireland's Call anymore right?

Fair trade for the billions it'd cost, I suppose.

Wrong, we'd probably only play Ireland's Call!

Dave_The_Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Wrong, we'd probably only play Ireland's Call!

Ah, bollocks to that. You're on your own lads!

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Helped no doubt by an absolutely toxic campaign on both sides.

One side screaming "look at all these immigrants" and the other shouting "wow have you seen the size of that shark?".

Never once was anything positive presented by Remain. Nobody in my locality knows what the benefits to remaining would have meant to them. Nobody spoke about the reasons for the EU. Nobody ever mentioned the value accrued to us all by working together and closely so. Nobody falsified the 'democratic deficit' nonsense by explaining how the EU and the Commission works and is elected.

All of it was Fear. Fear of the unknown vs Fear of the immigrants.

And the worst bit is that the latter was scarier for the majority of the population!

Democracy works when we can make informed decisions. That's one of the main reasons we have a representative democracy. We choose people to make decisions for us that are best for us.

Ah I used to be interested in politics but I've come to the conclusion that the majority of people have absolutely zero interest in making informed decisions. A clever marketing campaign with wonderful one line slogans is far more effective at getting people on your side than a rational and reasonable argument. We've seen examples of this before and will again. It's turned me off any involvement in politics at all.

In a time when we are better educated than ever before and have more access to information than ever before the idea that politicians are somehow responsible for peoples levels of awareness/ignorance is a ridiculous cop-out. The simple fact is that people are lazy. They could do research themselves, they just don't want to. They want the benefits of democracy without the responsibilities of it. They'd rather blame someone than work proactively to resolve issues.

Podge_irl

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah I used to be interested in politics but I've come to the conclusion that the majority of people have absolutely zero interest in making informed decisions. A clever marketing campaign with wonderful one line slogans is far more effective at getting people on your side than a rational and reasonable argument. We've seen examples of this before and will again. It's turned me off any involvement in politics at all.

In a time when we are better educated than ever before and have more access to information than ever before the idea that politicians are somehow responsible for peoples levels of awareness/ignorance is a ridiculous cop-out. The simple fact is that people are lazy. They could do research themselves, they just don't want to. They want the benefits of democracy without the responsibilities of it. They'd rather blame someone than work proactively to resolve issues.

Referenda, while a fine idea in theory, simply do not work in practice as far as I'm concerned.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah I used to be interested in politics but I've come to the conclusion that the majority of people have absolutely zero interest in making informed decisions. A clever marketing campaign with wonderful one line slogans is far more effective at getting people on your side than a rational and reasonable argument. We've seen examples of this before and will again. It's turned me off any involvement in politics at all.

It's the same in all walks of life. The most deserving charities, the ones that save the most lives with the least cash lose billions vs charities that figure out a good marketing 'hook' or ploy.

Marketing trumps all.

molloyjh wrote: »

In a time when we are better educated than ever before and have more access to information than ever before the idea that politicians are somehow responsible for peoples levels of awareness/ignorance is a ridiculous cop-out. The simple fact is that people are lazy. They could do research themselves, they just don't want to. They want the benefits of democracy without the responsibilities of it. They'd rather blame someone than work proactively to resolve issues.

Exactly. And we have a perfectly set up system to allow us to do that! A representative democracy.

We make a decision once every couple of years on who to entrust with our decision making. We choose a representative, empowering them to make judgement calls on our behalf. They represent us at the negotiating table, they take the time that we don't have to study legal documents and weigh up consequences giving decisions due attention, because if they don't, there is a whole horde of us waiting to crucify them for a bad decision.

Plebiscites are great when an adequately informed debate is available, and informed decisions are taken by all involved. I posted this elsewhere, but it is an important issue with respect to Plebiscites and the calls for 'direct democracy' or insults about 'democratic deficits'.

There was a caller on Radio 5 this morning who's vote in the referendum was worth exactly what mine was*.

He said he voted Leave because he believed that once Turkey joined the EU, that 12million Turks would come to the UK and that nobody would stop them.

For enormously important decisions like today's, if the referendum debate is not held to a high enough standard, and not well fact checked etc then its positively dangerous to offer misinformed voters the opportunity to make the decisions. Imagine if we treated patients with plebiscites? And if we allowed Homeopaths and 'Alternative Medicine' spooks constantly discuss their thoughts and offer them up as 'as worthwhile' as the Doctors who's opinions we counted on previously?

*and there is no other way that we can possibly do this!

errlloyd

Ugh, could this hinder a potential all island rwc bid.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And if we allowed Homeopaths and 'Alternative Medicine' spooks constantly discuss their thoughts and offer them up as 'as worthwhile' as the Doctors who's opinions we counted on previously?

*and there is no other way that we can possibly do this!

Well I'm not having that.

I agree with the point you're making but you lose me big time here.
I know jack about homeopathy, but I can tell you that acupuncture saved me when "doctors who's opinions we counted on previously" let me down in a big, big way.

So while I appreciate and totally agree with your general point, your analogy sucks major ass imo.

kuang1

kuang1 wrote: »

Well I'm not having that.

I agree with the point you're making but you lose me big time here.
I know jack about homeopathy, but I can tell you that acupuncture saved me when "doctors who's opinions we counted on previously" let me down in a big, big way.

So while I appreciate and totally agree with your general point, your analogy sucks major ass imo.

You have made my point for me beautifully.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You have made my point for me beautifully.

By agreeing with you?

You're essentially referring to modern scientific-based medicine being the only mode of medical treatment that can be trusted. And that any other mode of medical care is not to be trusted, nor are any advocates of said 'alternative' medicines to be taken seriously.
Is that viewpoint in itself not one of bigotry?

Or am I putting words in your mouth?
Apologies if so.

Felix Jones is God

I think what he is saying is that homeopathy is a load of ****....or maybe I'm putting that in his mouth
Acupuncture has benefits, no doubt, but reiki and homeopathy... rubbish

kuang1

kuang1 wrote: »

By agreeing with you?

You're essentially referring to modern scientific-based medicine being the only mode of medical treatment that can be trusted. And that any other mode of medical care is not to be trusted, nor are any advocates of said 'alternative' medicines to be taken seriously.
Is that viewpoint in itself not one of bigotry?

Or am I putting words in your mouth?
Apologies if so.

Once something is proved to work, it becomes medicine. Proof is not anecdotes. Anecdotes are not Proof.

Science is self correcting.

Also, Bigotry?