Off Topic Thread too point uh

Podge_irl

Acupuncture is actually quite difficult to scientifically study as it is rather hard to do double blind tests. However, in all lines of medicine, it is never as simple as "I got better so this works".

Homeopathy is a complete and utter pile of absolute horse manure.

Synode

Was kind of expecting this based on the polls the last week or so but I'm still shocked. Cameron will go down as the man responsible for breaking apart the UK.

If Sterling gets anywhere close to 1 for 1 I'm going on a spending spree

Synode

Synode wrote: »

Was kind of expecting this based on the polls the last week or so but I'm still shocked. Cameron will go down as the man responsible for breaking apart the UK.

If Sterling gets anywhere close to 1 for 1 I'm going on a spending spree

If anything Sterling is coping much better than EUR in the markets this morning!

EURGBP @ 0.8 at the moment (was 0.76 last night)

awec

What is with people going on about "unaccountable faceless beauracrats" and the likes when it comes to talking about MEPs?

They are elected politicians...

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

If anything Sterling is coping much better than EUR in the markets this morning!

EURGBP @ 0.8 at the moment (was 0.76 last night)

EUR is strengthening against the GBP all the same. SNB can't be having a fun time of it trying to maintain the EUR/CHF exchange rate.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Once something is proved to work, it becomes medicine. Proof is not anecdotes. Anecdotes are not Proof.

Science is self correcting.

Also, Bigotry?

Sorry...bigotry misused there...too strong for what I intended.
Narrow-minded and prejudiced might be more accurate.

You're correct of course, anecdotes are not proof.

But the scientific realm has things conveniently sewn up there, because "proof" by defintion (in medical sense) requires a scientific variety of said proof.

Therefore any mode of medicine that does not have itself established within and around science at root/origin level is destined to be forever "debunked" by scientists.

Science is merely one singular viewpoint on life/health/existence.
There are others just as valid.

However capitalism, commercialism, profit, lobbyists etc etc ensure that the public at large is ushered into thinking/believing that if something can't be "scientifically proven" then it's not to be trusted.

Hang on my tin-foil hat just fell off...

Synode

Deleted User wrote: »

If anything Sterling is coping much better than EUR in the markets this morning!

EURGBP @ 0.8 at the moment (was 0.76 last night)

Sterling has gone from $1.48 to $1.39 (and falling) overnight. It's being hammered (granted Euro is suffering also but not as bad)

Neil3030

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If anything Sterling is coping much better than EUR in the markets this morning!

EURGBP @ 0.8 at the moment (was 0.76 last night)

Very surprised by this tbh. Maybe the European economy will take an initial hit but stabilise a bit quicker. I can't see the UK enjoying any sense of stability for some, what with a new PM, article 50 negotiations and a likely Scottish independence ref to follow.

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

What is with people going on about "unaccountable faceless beauracrats" and the likes when it comes to talking about MEPs?

They are elected politicians...

MEPs don't really hold a lot of power. Because they were never supposed to because the EU wasn't supposed to be a supreme government it was supposed to be a supranational entity. It's democratic in the sense that national governments appoint people to it. It's not really and different from the civil service.

kuang1

kuang1 wrote: »

Sorry...bigotry misused there...too strong for what I intended.
Narrow-minded and prejudiced might be more accurate.

You're correct of course, anecdotes are not proof.

But the scientific realm has things conveniently sewn up there, because "proof" by defintion (in medical sense) requires a scientific variety of said proof.

Therefore any mode of medicine that does not have itself established within and around science at root/origin level is destined to be forever "debunked" by scientists.

Right. You're grand there.

Synode

Synode wrote: »

Sterling has gone from $1.48 to $1.39 (and falling) overnight. It's being hammered (granted Euro is suffering also but not as bad)

Sterling was at $1.35 3 hours ago. It's rallying well vs the dollar since then.

FTSE closed ~ 6300 last night, opened closer to 5900 but has been floating between 6000 and 6100 since then.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

Sterling was at $1.35 3 hours ago. It's rallying well vs the dollar since then.

FTSE closed ~ 6300 last night, opened closer to 5900 but has been floating between 6000 and 6100 since then.

It's still down 7%. It's only rallying well compared to the phenomenal hit it took on the back of this being such a surprise. Some element of rallying was inevitable once the immediate panic subsided but it's still all a bit rubbish.

Buer

kuang1 wrote: »

Science is merely one singular viewpoint on life/health/existence.
There are others just as valid.

Science isn't a singular, narrow field that operates with its own unregulated set of parameters. It's everything in the universe around us and is all encapsulating.

Other viewpoints don't hold the same validity because they're not able to prove their validity through fact.

thomond2006

Deleted User wrote: »

Sterling was at $1.35 3 hours ago. It's rallying well vs the dollar since then.

FTSE closed ~ 6300 last night, opened closer to 5900 but has been floating between 6000 and 6100 since then.

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's still down 7%. It's only rallying well compared to the phenomenal hit it took on the back of this being such a surprise. Some element of rallying was inevitable once the immediate panic subsided but it's still all a bit rubbish.

Somebody is going to make a killing today!

Synode

Deleted User wrote: »

Sterling was at $1.35 3 hours ago. It's rallying well vs the dollar since then.

FTSE closed ~ 6300 last night, opened closer to 5900 but has been floating between 6000 and 6100 since then.

It will be up and down for the day. It started at $1.484 and now stands at $1.377 (and falling) - a drop of approx 7.2%. At the end of today, sterling will have lost a considerable value because of this result.

In comparison, Euro started at $1.138 and has fallen to $1.109 (and steadying) in the same period - a drop of approx 2.54%.

There's no doubt about it. Sterling is suffering far worse than the Euro, and this will continue in the short to medium term

kuang1

Buer wrote: »

Science isn't a singular, narrow field that operates with its own unregulated set of parameters. It's everything in the universe around us and is all encapsulating.

Other viewpoints don't hold the same validity because they're not able to prove their validity through fact.

Oh no they are VERY regulated paramaters, which will often have a staight-jacket and limiting effect on it's own progress.

I know I'm being pedantic, but other viewpoints can't prove their validity through SCIENTIFIC fact.

But despite that I or anyone else can't provide scientific proof or explanation, it is A FACT that I have had no pain in my arm since receiving acupunture. (& trust me I was pretty sceptical to begin with so certainly not a mind-over-matter job.)

awec

awec wrote: »

Today probably marks the beginning of the end for the UK.

Sturgeon just asked for another go at trying to walk themselves out of the UK.

Buer

kuang1 wrote: »

Oh no they are VERY regulated paramaters, which will often have a staight-jacket and limiting effect on it's own progress.

I know I'm being pedantic, but other viewpoints can't prove their validity through SCIENTIFIC fact.

I typed out a response but deleted it. Suffice to say the only thing it had in common with yours was the use of the phrase "straight-jacket".

Clearlier

kuang1 wrote: »

Oh no they are VERY regulated paramaters, which will often have a staight-jacket and limiting effect on it's own progress.

I know I'm being pedantic, but other viewpoints can't prove their validity through SCIENTIFIC fact.

But despite that I or anyone else can't provide scientific proof or explanation, it is A FACT that I have had no pain in my arm since receiving acupunture. (& trust me I was pretty sceptical to begin with so certainly not a mind-over-matter job.)

I'm a little more sceptical than most but medicine has increasingly become evidence based over the past 20-30 years, i.e. there are times when scientific theory pushes us in one direction but reality on the ground in the shape of what actually results from a treatment is what guides medicine. Science gives us ideas as to what might work, RCT's are what tell us whether an idea is effective or not. There's not a massive amount of evidence favouring acupuncture for any specific treatment at the moment. That doesn't mean that it won't work just that we haven't any evidence yet that it does. FWIW I've had acupuncture before and for me I think that it was a complete waste of time and money. My wife has had it also and in her opinion it helped her. Given the myriad factors known and unknown that can affect how someone is you can't just take a single piece of evidence and proclaim it as definitive proof of the efficacy of a treatment because it could be an unknown 'other' that caused the change. That's why you do large scale RCT's.

molloyjh

kuang1 wrote: »

I know I'm being pedantic, but other viewpoints can't prove their validity through SCIENTIFIC fact.

I'm not looking to get involved in the conversation really, but I'm just wondering what other kind of facts are there? I mean I'm sure there's a scientific reason why your arm is better...

irishbucsfan

Regardless of the fallout for the EU (and this is going to be a major kick up their hole, and hopefully an instant end to ever-closer-union) this result SHOULD be a major wakeup call to the state of democracy in Europe. Of course it won't be, because as we've seen once again the political classes exist in their own little bubble. It should also be a major lesson to governments in how they should comport themselves in future referenda, including the inevitable upcoming Scottish one.

Swan Curry

its absolutely insane that not even the assassination of an opposition mp could halt the uk's headfirst charge towards fascism

Teferi

So, Scotland to have a referendum within 2 years or so (and likely, much sooner). You'd imagine there would be a strong push for a Northern Ireland referendum if Scotland go (and they would probably get it). In a few years, the United Kingdom of England and er...Wales, could be a very lonely and isolated place.

kuang1

Buer wrote: »

I typed out a response but deleted it. Suffice to say the only thing it had in common with yours was the use of the phrase "straight-jacket".

Lol. You just may have been right too.

irishbucsfan

Looks like this could well be the end of Corbyn as well. One of the most disastrous attempts to lead a major political party in recent times, and so terribly timed for the Labour party.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It should also be a major lesson to governments in how they should comport themselves in future referenda, including the inevitable upcoming Scottish one.

Yeah. Bare-faced lies, appealing to the worst common denominators and empty rhetoric are the way to win referenda.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yeah. Bare-faced lies, appealing to the worst common denominators and empty rhetoric are the way to win referenda.

Rather, massive levels of scaremongering and doomsday-predictions on both sides means that regardless of results people will be scared and people will act like it's the end of the world.

kuang1

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm not looking to get involved in the conversation really, but I'm just wondering what other kind of facts are there? I mean I'm sure there's a scientific reason why your arm is better...

Short version: developed debilitating arm pain. Had x-ray, mri, blood test, physio and a consultation with a pain specialist who concluded that there was "no medical reason for my pain", and would I consider acupuncture. Failing that he was wanting to do exploratory surgery in my spine.

I chose the acupuncture.

If there is a scientific reason as to why my arm is better then neither I nor the doctors I met can name it.

Btw if I feel unwell tomorrow in any shape or form my GP will still be my first port of call!

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yeah. Bare-faced lies, appealing to the worst common denominators and empty rhetoric are the way to win referenda.

Doom-Mongering doesn't work. We need to discuss positives. Get people interested in voting A, not scare them away from voting B. It creates a negative and toxic atmosphere and it polarizes opinions and worse, people.

What positive things did Remain (who I voted for!) talk about? There were so many things that they could have brought to people's attention but chose instead to embark on a journey of "don't do B, it's scary over there".

Some headbangers (Donegal) will always see that kind of approach as a challenge!

kuang1

kuang1 wrote: »

Short version: developed debilitating arm pain. Had x-ray, mri, blood test, physio and a consultation with a pain specialist who concluded that there was "no medical reason for my pain", and would I consider acupuncture. Failing that he was wanting to do exploratory surgery in my spine.

I chose the acupuncture.

If there is a scientific reason as to why my arm is better then neither I nor the doctors I met can name it.

Btw if I feel unwell tomorrow in any shape or form my GP will still be my first port of call!

Have you watched Better Call Saul?

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

Doom-Mongering doesn't work. We need to discuss positives. Get people interested in voting A, not scare them away from voting B. It creates a negative and toxic atmosphere and it polarizes opinions and worse, people.

Sure I agree. But it's fundamentally a bit difficult to create a positive scenario for a status quo.

And scare tactics, in general, work. But in this case fear of immigrants won over fear of economic collapse. The level overall was ****ing ****.

Swan Curry

Can't wait to see labour replace corbyn with one of the interchangeable blairites and then wonder why they keep losing elections

kuang1

Clearlier wrote: »

Given the myriad factors known and unknown that can affect how someone is you can't just take a single piece of evidence and proclaim it as definitive proof of the efficacy of a treatment because it could be an unknown 'other' that caused the change. That's why you do large scale RCT's.

Yeah absolutely.
And I hope I don't come across as a fanatic who's out to convert the world to acupunture.

And I honestly know nothing about any other so called alternative therapies. (Don't know a whole lot about the inner workings of acupunture either to be fair!)

I originally posted on this topic objecting about the comparison made between scare-mongering/extremist thinking and people electing to be treated by non-mainstream methods...didn't think it was proper.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you watched Better Call Saul?

Not yet.
Think I should?!

On brexit, ideally we'd have a society that reacts more to positive selling points than negative scare mongering.

It just ain't the reality though.
"Do you know what terrible things will happen if you vote B" will always be a stronger message than "here are all the great things about voting A"

Neil3030

Europe never got a fair shake in the UK media, and I have anecdotal reports from UK journalists that their publications imposed a blanket ban on any positive European stories.

Whatever way you look at it, demography doesn't lie. This was older, poorer, more rural, less educated Britain, seduced by devious marketing into turning on an enemy that never existed to suit a minority of self interest. Worst of all for me is how they have inadvertently closed the door on future British generations living in 27 other countries, a freedom they never appreciated and have now denied to everyone else.

Podge_irl

The EU has been a convenient scapegoat for every perceived ill in the UK for a very long time. And plenty of pro-EU politicians were complicit in that.

kuang1

kuang1 wrote: »

Not yet.
Think I should?!

Yes, it's excellent. Quite different from Breaking Bad but it is very good.

Chuck would be an interesting character for you to pay attention to!

kuang1 wrote: »

On brexit, ideally we'd have a society that reacts more to positive selling points than negative scare mongering.

It just ain't the reality though.
"Do you know what terrible things will happen if you vote B" will always be a stronger message than "here are all the great things about voting A"

Being the only message though is so so sour.

Kiwi_knock

The faceless bureaucrats were an easy way of escaping any responsibility. I wonder who will be the new scapegoat when things don't improve.

Kiwi_knock

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

The faceless bureaucrats were an easy way of escaping any responsibility. I wonder who will be the new scapegoat when things don't improve.

It will still be Europe but with the difference being that "EU tries to Punish Britain for claiming independence".

If the British economy tanks as a result of this and they have any kind of protracted recession there is NO WAY that those who pushed for leave will take responsibility.

Maybe a strong leader will come to the fore, one who enshrines nationalism above all else and who can blame immigrants for all of German.. Britain's woes.

Swan Curry

I'm sure the people who voted leave to take their democracy back will continue their pursuit of democracy by removing the hereditary peers from the house of lords and dismantling the monarchy.

irishbucsfan

Swan Curry wrote: »

I'm sure the people who voted leave to take their democracy back will continue their pursuit of democracy by removing the hereditary peers from the house of lords and dismantling the monarchy.

People in the North, who overwhelmingly voted in favour of leave, would do exactly that if given the chance.

Zzippy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Rather, massive levels of scaremongering and doomsday-predictions on both sides means that regardless of results people will be scared and people will act like it's the end of the world.

Scaremongering worked in the Scottish independence referendum. They claimed an independent Scotland would not be guaranteed EU membership. Look how that worked out. SNP will win independence with a large majority if they run a new one soon.

Neil3030

Swan Curry wrote: »

I'm sure the people who voted leave to take their democracy back will continue their pursuit of democracy by removing the hereditary peers from the house of lords and dismantling the monarchy.

Once they are finished torching mosques and imprisoning the Irish, yes, that's the next step for sure.

Zzippy

Zzippy wrote: »

Scaremongering worked in the Scottish independence referendum. They claimed an independent Scotland would not be guaranteed EU membership. Look how that worked out. SNP will win independence with a large majority if they run a new one soon.

I think it looks very likely judging by both the recent general election and the EU referendum vote that Scotland is going to leave the UK.

I don't think any other EU countries will do anything until they see how the UK fair over the next few years.

Northern Ireland is the one strong variable. I don't think there is any momentum there currently, but if Scotland leave then that could change.

Also interesting was that the votes in Northern Ireland were not made entirely along existing political and religious lines.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

The EU has been a convenient scapegoat for every perceived ill in the UK for a very long time. And plenty of pro-EU politicians were complicit in that.

I think it will be interesting to see where Dan Hannon goes from here. He's someone who has done extremely well from this process as an anti-EU MEP but he actually has a very specific and defined approach in other areas, he's a devout localist and is classically liberal. I wonder if we might see a split in the Tory party along those lines, and I wonder if UKIP, which has now served it's function, might just end up finding that to be their next battleground (and indeed Douglas Carswell who wrote a "book" with Hannon already previously moved from the tories to UKIP).

irishbucsfan

Zzippy wrote: »

Scaremongering worked in the Scottish independence referendum. They claimed an independent Scotland would not be guaranteed EU membership. Look how that worked out. SNP will win independence with a large majority if they run a new one soon.

Did it really work? I wouldn't say it did at all, given the SNP now dominate Scottish politics and how close that referendum ended up.

errlloyd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Northern Ireland is the one strong variable. I don't think there is any momentum there currently, but if Scotland leave then that could change.

Also interesting was that the votes in Northern Ireland were not made entirely along existing political and religious lines.

Hmm, the percentage of catholics who voted in was very high. So there was at least some block voting in play.

Swan Curry

On the plus side, we're now the only native English-speaking country in the EU. I suppose that will be beneficial for some.

kuang1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, it's excellent. Quite different from Breaking Bad but it is very good.

Chuck would be an interesting character for you to pay attention to!

I'm chuckling away here because I already have an image of a certain type of charachter...will check it later today.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe a strong leader will come to the fore, one who enshrines nationalism above all else and who can blame immigrants for all of German.. Britain's woes.

One people, one empire, one leader, innit mate.