Ukraines PM - "We still remember well the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany. "

Lemming

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The government run RTE, anyone who thinks its "independent" is deluding themselves.

Never said RTE was. Stop building strawmen arguments.

This thread is not about Sinn Fein but the treatment SF politicians receive compared to Govt Ministers on RTE says it all. RTE seems very keen to tell us about Gerry Adams holiday home in Donegal and what class Mary Lou flies in sneering tones. They seem uninterested in the fact that those who bankrupt the country are still living in the lap of luxury.

See above comment about strawmen arguments. The original comment was painted as some sort of conspiracy by american interests. It was not. It was local interests.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

I wouldn't say they are extremely Anti-Putin. They present arguments from both sides.

As for shutting them down "they" are already trying.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/05/russia-moscow-times-cyber-attack

And they will be gone in 2017 given the new media ownership laws coming into effect.

I don't know anything about these media ownership laws but I'm not surprised. Any country that is being destabilized by external forces usually goes on high alert. The US gave $5 billion to promote democracy in Ukraine ("democracy" US style that is) and no doubt similar "donations" are planned for Russian pro-US opposition groups.
* RTE news at one is on now, a guy from the Wall Street Journal is on talking about Ukraine. I do like a balanced debate!!
Edit: Ten mins later. I'm stunned!! I've just heard RTE news "discuss" Ukraine and the words "Russian aggression" weren't mentioned once.

PopePalpatine

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

A quick google and you will find out about “Concentration of media ownership”.
6 corporations control 90% of the media in america, in other words it only takes 6 phone calls from the white house to get the american people on the same page as the government.

Good luck getting Fox News to agree with a Democrat administration or MSNBC to agree with a Republican administration.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The US gave $5 billion to promote democracy in Ukraine.

The US have actually admitted this.

What you have omitted from your sound bite is that this is the total over 24 years since the fall of the Iron Curtain (since 1991)!

They also said that they didn't spend any money supporting the Maidan.

How much has Russia spent in the same timeframe in the Ukraine? How much have they "sponsored" their preferred leaders?

Lemming

gandalf wrote: »

How much has Russia spent in the same timeframe in the Ukraine? How much have they "sponsored" their preferred leaders?

Indeed, one of their "former" perferred leaders, Igor 'Strelkov' Girkin, admitted to being a Colonel in the FSB.

gandalf

Lemming wrote: »

Indeed, one of their "former" perferred leaders, Igor 'Strelkov' Girkin, admitted to being a Colonel in the FSB.

I'm thinking more of the actual political leaders of the Ukraine. How much was Viktor sponsored by for example?

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

The US have actually admitted this.

What you have omitted from your sound bite is that this is the total over 24 years since the fall of the Iron Curtain (since 1991)!

They also said that they didn't spend any money supporting the Maidan.

How much has Russia spent in the same timeframe in the Ukraine? How much have they "sponsored" their preferred leaders?

No, Nuland and McCain (Kerry?) only handed out cookies just before the.. ahem.. spontaneous popular uprising.
This deputy named Oleg Tsarov knew in November 2013 that Ukraine was soon to become a democratic utopia. Watch it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9hOl8TuBUM

$5 billion for this, you can't beat a bit of democracy eh? sure its only a bit of fun eh?
http://elitedaily.com/news/world/ukrainians-throwing-politicians-trash-cans-bucket-challenge-video/793165/

Gatling

[quote="Elmer Blooker;94245783"

$5 billion for this, you can't beat a bit of democracy eh? sure its only a bit of fun eh?
http://elitedaily.com/news/world/ukrainians-throwing-politicians-trash-cans-bucket-challenge-video/793165/[/quote]

Looks like pro russian puppets got put in skips hardly outrageous now is it (he signed a law banning protests )
Can you translate the YouTube video.

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

Looks like pro russian puppets got put in skips hardly outrageous now is it (he signed a law banning protests )
Can you translate the YouTube video.

can't do better than that? no? Is that your best?

In 1930s Germany it started by taunting and making fun of Jews by pulling their beards, it was hardly outrageous was it?

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

can't do better than that? no? Is that your best?

In 1930s Germany it started by taunting and making fun of Jews by pulling their beards, it was hardly outrageous was it?

So a pro russian politician tries to ban Ukrainians from protesting in their own country .
What did you expect to happen could have been worse alot worse .
strange how all these far right extremism groups and antisemitism groups and this chap got dumped in a skip I've seen journalists in Russia get murders for criticising Vladimir putin.
Now any translation for that video you posted that contains proof you claimed

woodrow wyatt

I enjoy a Tom Clancy book as much as the next man, but i know they are fiction, something some here don’t seem to know.
I should have been clearer, i read a article a few year ago written by a retired NATO General, the gist of it was the west can’t fight a prolonged war.
His reasons where very simple, the tech is to hard to maintain.
A advance Nato fighter plane needs 25 hour of maintenance for every flight hour, the balkan bombing campaign could not have gone on much longer due to the lack of combat ready planes.
The M1 Abrams tank, very heavy on fuel, the turbine engine sucks up debris which damages it, resulting in more time under maintenance.
Even the guns the troops carry must be well maintained to keep working.

He said Russian tech is much simpler and requires less maintenance.
Basically just refuel and rearm their planes and tanks, no need for anywhere near the maintenance of NATO weapons.
The best weapons in the world are no good if they are in the maintenance shed and not on the battlefield.
Now in the Ukraine today Kiev forces are backed by NATO, no doubt they have advisers there, they have had no success since the early days of the war, the longer it goes on the better for the Russians, this is uncharted waters for NATO, they have no knowledge of how to grind out a win.
You don’t see any NATO back Kiev victory’s only the Russian back rebels winning.

A example of what is said here,
“Only 16 of 102 RAF Tornado jets still meet full combat standards.”
Wont win any wars with them on the ground.

bbc.com/news/uk-30338659

Gatling

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

I enjoy a Tom Clancy book as much as the next man, but i know they are fiction, something some here don’t seem to know.
I should have been clearer, i read a article a few year ago written by a retired NATO General, the gist of it was the west can’t fight a prolonged war.
His reasons where very simple, the tech is to hard to maintain.
A advance Nato fighter plane needs 25 hour of maintenance for every flight hour, the balkan bombing campaign could not have gone on much longer due to the lack of combat ready planes.
The M1 Abrams tank, very heavy on fuel, the turbine engine sucks up debris which damages it, resulting in more time under maintenance.
Even the guns the troops carry must be well maintained to keep working.

He said Russian tech is much simpler and requires less maintenance.
Basically just refuel and rearm their planes and tanks, no need for anywhere near the maintenance of NATO weapons.
The best weapons in the world are no good if they are in the maintenance shed and not on the battlefield.
Now in the Ukraine today Kiev forces are backed by NATO, no doubt they have advisers there, they have had no success since the early days of the war, the longer it goes on the better for the Russians, this is uncharted waters for NATO, they have no knowledge of how to grind out a win.
You don’t see any NATO back Kiev victory’s only the Russian back rebels winning.

A example of what is said here,
“Only 16 of 102 RAF Tornado jets still meet full combat standards.”
Wont win any wars with them on the ground.

bbc.com/news/uk-30338659

Do you honestly believe that .

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

So a pro russian politician tries to ban Ukrainians from protesting in their own country .
What did you expect to happen could have been worse alot worse .
strange how all these far right extremism groups and antisemitism groups and this chap got dumped in a skip I've seen journalists in Russia get murders for criticising Vladimir putin.
Now any translation for that video you posted that contains proof you claimed

From what I can see its not pro Russians who are stamping out all opposition in the new democratic Ukraine. You don't have to be a genius to see that this lustration law is aimed at anyone from an ethnic Russian background who can be accused of being associated with the Yanukovych regime or a communist party member in order to exclude them from participating in politics.

According to General Prosecutor of Ukraine Vitaly Yarema the lustration law adopted by the Ukrainian parliament complied neither with the Ukrainian Constitution, nor international law, and he warned "its enactment will have negative consequences"

We heard a lot about "international law" when Crimea rejoined Russia after a period of 60 years but nothing about this repressive law for some reason?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lustration_in_Ukraine

Shurimgreat

The latest peace plan is a waste of time. Putin and his rebels use the peace talks as a distraction, an opportunity to rearm and motivation to gain more ground to put them in a stronger position.

Europe is wasting its time. Merkel is so far out of her depth its unreal, as the Europeans usually are.

Putin won't stop until most of Eastern Ukraine is destroyed and he has his land bridge to Crimea. After that he will more than likely move on to somewhere else in Eastern Europe, probably the Baltics.

He believes its his destiny to redraw the map of Europe, and won't stop until that's done.

Iwasfrozen

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The latest peace plan is a waste of time. Putin and his rebels use the peace talks as a distraction, an opportunity to rearm and motivation to gain more ground to put them in a stronger position.

Europe is wasting its time. Merkel is so far out of her depth its unreal, as the Europeans usually are.

Putin won't stop until most of Eastern Ukraine is destroyed and he has his land bridge to Crimea. After that he will more than likely move on to somewhere else in Eastern Europe, probably the Baltics.

He believes its his destiny to redraw the map of Europe, and won't stop until that's done.

Baltics are safe, they're NATO nations, Kazakhstan is a much more juicy target.

Gatling

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The latest peace plan is a waste of time. Putin and his rebels use the peace talks as a distraction, an opportunity to rearm and motivation to gain more ground to put them in a stronger position.

Europe is wasting its time. Merkel is so far out of her depth its unreal, as the Europeans usually are.

Putin won't stop until most of Eastern Ukraine is destroyed and he has his land bridge to Crimea. After that he will more than likely move on to somewhere else in Eastern Europe, probably the Baltics.

He believes its his destiny to redraw the map of Europe, and won't stop until that's done.

One of the big issues is Russia doesn't want ukraine to have control of its own borders .

A sovereign nation not allowed to be in control of its own borders

Shurimgreat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Baltics are safe, they're NATO nations, Kazakhstan is a much more juicy target.

There is no doubt he will try to test NATO in the Baltics. He's already started with the provocations, kidnapping an Estonian spy chief. There will be others too. He will keep proding hoping for a reaction to see what NATOs response will be.

Putin is your classic bully/coward. He prods to see if there is a response or reaction. When he gets none he pushes further. He keeps pushing when he sees a weakness. When he sees a strong response he backs down and runs away. And tries somewhere else.

Only an incredibly strong message from NATO will make this bully/coward walk away. The same goes for Ukraine. A tepid response from the west and he keeps pushing. A strong response and he will run away. Angela Merkel to him represents a weak response.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

From what I can see its not pro Russians who are stamping out all opposition in the new democratic Ukraine. You don't have to be a genius to see that this lustration law is aimed at anyone from an ethnic Russian background who can be accused of being associated with the Yanukovych regime or a communist party member in order to exclude them from participating in politics.

We heard a lot about "international law" when Crimea rejoined Russia after a period of 60 years but nothing about this repressive law for some reason?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lustration_in_Ukraine

So Yanukovich stooges loose there jobs boohoo hoo .

Now let's see what parties get elected now the russian minority have lost power permanently in Ukraine

gandalf

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Only an incredibly strong message from NATO will make this bully/coward walk away. The same goes for Ukraine. A tepid response from the west and he keeps pushing. A strong response and he will run away. Angela Merkel to him represents a weak response.

As I said earlier we are approaching another peace in our time fudge. Merkel will become the new Chamberlain.

NATO, the EU and the International community need to send a very strong message to Putin and his cronies and the best way to do this is financially.

Russia needs to be dropped from the SWIFT clearance system and far more severe sanctions levied against Russia until they withdraw their forces, arms, mercenaries from the occupied territories and order its proxy army to stand down.

If they aren't strong now then we could be looking at multiples of the 5000 poor souls who have lost their lives because of the military misadventures of Vladimir.

Shurimgreat

Indeed. I expect the outcome of the four way talks will be Putin assuring Merkel and Hollande he wants peace, he will stop supporting the rebels or else claim he doesn't support them, that the rebels will withdraw and other false promises.

And once they go home to their countries with their "peace in our time" promises, the fighting in Eastern Ukraine will continue and if anything gets worse.

I agree that Putin has been forced to the peace table by the threat of further financial sanctions. He hopes that if he pretends he wants peace these new sanctions won't happen. Promise peace but practice war, its the only tactic Putin knows. Merkel just swallows it every time.

Peace talks rarely work in any situation without a very big stick lurking in the background.

woodrow wyatt

Gatling wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that .

Sure why not, its backed up by the bbc report

woodrow wyatt

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Putin is your classic bully/coward. He prods to see if there is a response or reaction. When he gets none he pushes further. He keeps pushing when he sees a weakness. When he sees a strong response he backs down and runs away. And tries somewhere else.

This is the USA in a nut shell, they have started more trouble than any nation since the end of the cold war, now they have picked a fight with a country that wont back down and is prepared to fight back.

Shurimgreat

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

This is the USA in a nut shell, they have started more trouble than any nation since the end of the cold war, now they have picked a fight with a country that wont back down and is prepared to fight back.

May I ask what country you are posting from?

woodrow wyatt

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Indeed. I expect the outcome of the four way talks will be Putin assuring Merkel and Hollande he wants peace, he will stop supporting the rebels or else claim he doesn't support them, that the rebels will withdraw and other false promises.

And once they go home to their countries with their "peace in our time" promises, the fighting in Eastern Ukraine will continue and if anything gets worse.

Who broke the last cease fire? The Junta in kiev.

Shurimgreat

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Who broke the last cease fire? The Junta in kiev.

By the way you speak its clear you are Russian.

woodrow wyatt

Shurimgreat wrote: »

May I ask what country you are posting from?

its not russia if thats what you mean, also i am not russian.

woodrow wyatt

Shurimgreat wrote: »

By the way you speak its clear you are Russian.

Well i would counter that accusation by saying i am someone who looks at the situation with both eyes wide open.
Massive amount of propaganda at work trying to demonise russia.

Shurimgreat

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Well i would counter that accusation by saying i am someone who looks at the situation with both eyes wide open.
Massive amount of propaganda at work trying to demonise russia.

I'm sceptical that you say you aren't from Russia.

No other nationalities use the "Kiev Junta" term except pro-Putin Russians.

Unfortunately Russians have been so conditioned by their media that they nearly all think alike and in favour of the government, with a few notable and largely shouted down exceptions.

gandalf

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Well i would counter that accusation by saying i am someone who looks at the situation with both eyes wide open.
Massive amount of propaganda at work trying to demonise russia.

From your contribution so far I don't believe you are looking at this situation with both eyes open at all

Russia's leaders are doing a damn fine job of demonising the country themselves without any help from outside sources. Anyone who doesn't realise this are in extreme denial.

woodrow wyatt

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'm sceptical that you say you aren't from Russia.

No other nationalities use the "Kiev Junta" term except pro-Putin Russians.

Unfortunately Russians have been so conditioned by their media that they nearly all think alike and in favour of the government, with a few notable and largely shouted down exceptions.

Ok hands up, you caught me, im the Red under your bed.

There already is a slight change in the media regarding the situation in the Ukraine, the BBC has gone from referring to "Putin" now he is "Vladimir Putin" or "President Putin".
As more of the crimes of the Junta become too hard to hide, the EU will drop them followed by the USA, to save face they will say they where lied to and did not know the full story.

Shurimgreat

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Ok hands up, you caught me, im the Red under your bed.

There already is a slight change in the media regarding the situation in the Ukraine, the BBC has gone from referring to "Putin" now he is "Vladimir Putin" or "President Putin".
As more of the crimes of the Junta become too hard to hide, the EU will drop them followed by the USA, to save face they will say they where lied to and did not know the full story.

You're not the Red under the bed, in fact I'd have more time for the red under the bed than you. You're just a Putinista hoping for some crumbs from the table. At least the Soviets had some principles and believed to a degree in things such as socialism, justice, equality etc. They weren't trying to be grubby capitalists or mimicking the same people and behaviours they criticise the most.

Lemming

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Indeed. I expect the outcome of the four way talks will be Putin assuring Merkel and Hollande he wants peace, he will stop supporting the rebels or else claim he doesn't support them, that the rebels will withdraw and other false promises.

And once they go home to their countries with their "peace in our time" promises, the fighting in Eastern Ukraine will continue and if anything gets worse.

The intensification of fighting and offensives by the rebels remind me of the dying days of the Korean war, where there was all-out fighting to grab as much ground as possible before the armistice kicked in. Whomever held it, held it. It's a cynical ploy to grab land.

Gatling

So ukraine gets control of its border from Sunday, something russia was dead against and according to various reports up to 50 + russian tanks crossed over to Ukraine while peace talks were taking place .
Russian separatists want Ukrainian government troops to surrender weapons to them.
And all heavy weapons to be withdrawn

Shurimgreat

I think a lot of people will be sceptical of this deal or that it will hold.
Putin has got a lot of what he wanted, mainly the postponement of sanctions.
If its true that 50 tanks crossed into Ukraine, it just confirms that the Russian side are using the peace talks as a distraction while they rearm as they did before.
An analyst on the news earlier said the Russians were noted for smoke and mirrors. Say one thing, do the opposite.
My prediction, two weeks from now the Russian "separatists" will be on the offensive again.
And maybe at the next peace talks they will gain even more concessions.

Gatling

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think a lot of people will be sceptical of this deal or that it will hold.
Putin has got a lot of what he wanted, mainly the postponement of sanctions.
If its true that 50 tanks crossed into Ukraine, it just confirms that the Russian side are using the peace talks as a distraction while they rearm as they did before.
An analyst on the news earlier said the Russians were noted for smoke and mirrors. Say one thing, do the opposite.
My prediction, two weeks from now the Russian "separatists" will be on the offensive again.
And maybe at the next peace talks they will gain even more concessions.

Personally I reckon it won't hold past 4 weeks especially when it seems we see almost daily attacks on government positions but yet the Ukrainian government forces are the bad guys

woodrow wyatt

Gatling wrote: »

the Ukrainian government forces are the bad guys

Better late that never to see the light.

Its a good day for democracy
The simple fact that there is going to be constitutional negotiations call into question the Junta's legitimacy.

SamHarris

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Better late that never to see the light.

Its a good day for democracy
The simple fact that there is going to be constitutional negotiations call into question the Junta's legitimacy.

You know what a Junta is, right? Just using the word because you think it's derogatory does not make it so. I thought the argument was fascists had taken over, when did the argument change?

Lemming

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Better late that never to see the light.

A+ for both selective cynical quotation, and for totally missing the point of what Gatling was saying.

Gatling

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Better late that never to see the light.

Its a good day for democracy
The simple fact that there is going to be constitutional negotiations call into question the Junta's legitimacy.

Thought I was seeing things earlier .

Don't attempt to twist my post to suit your kremlin propaganda .

This so called peace agreement is a total travesty for democracy and a shameful day for the EU who allowed a friend to be invaded and annexed not once but now twice in what is nothing more than a land grab an illegal one at that .
Russia has basically asked to take back and control ukraine against the wishes of the population of Ukraine for the 2nd time in 10 years

Hibernosaur

Despite the negativity there are some key concessions here that may be enough to make this a runner.

Kiev has agreed to change it's constitution to allow special status on the Donbass region and also to disarm it's volunteer militias. The rebels have swore to uphold their side of the bargain by pulling back and to hold proper legal elections with international observers in the near future. These things had not been agreed before.

Both sides are conceding something here. Donbass is not getting it's statehood, and Ukraine is not getting to severe the Eastern regions trade ties with Russia.

Donbass will return to tax integration and it's special status with Russia will ensure Ukraine will be more unlikely to ever join Nato. Pensioners will get their pensions, and Kiev will get it's taxes.

The coal and steel miners will be able to go back to work (If there are any factories left) and resume trade with Russia.

Russia gets it's buffer zone and probably, down the line Crimea will be quietly recognized formally by the the international community as Russian territory (It's already de facto)

The absolute main thing is - the killings and misery caused by this war will hopefully end.




One can only hope and pray.

Shurimgreat

My take on the situation is that region of Eastern Ukraine is now populated with mafia-like warlords trying to carve out areas with a loose alliance with Moscow. This is Moscow's prefered modus operendi in other areas of dispute.
They have no interest in democracy. Human rights, free speech will be severely curtailed. Independent journalists will be disappeared. Anyone who opposes Moscow will disappear.
All this has already happened in Crimea.
Make no mistake Russia has won here.
It never changes direction, ever.
The focus of the West will move elsewhere, and Eastern Ukraine will gradually fall into the Russian sphere of influence. In a year or two a rigged referendum will be held in the area voting for unification with Russia, it will be carried, Russia will recognise the outcome and the result will be the same as in Crimea.

KingBrian2

If Russia agrees not to encroach on Ukrainian territory will America promise not to invade any more countries with unreliable evidence of WMD.

Shurimgreat

KingBrian2 wrote: »

If Russia agrees not to encroach on Ukrainian territory will America promise not to invade any more countries with unreliable evidence of WMD.

What kind of deal is that?

First of all America didn't annex any part of Iraq. The country has held several democratic elections since where the people are free to choose who they want.

Fiery mutant

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Both sides are conceding something here. Donbass is not getting it's statehood, and Ukraine is not getting to severe the Eastern regions trade ties with Russia.

Donbass will return to tax integration and it's special status with Russia will ensure Ukraine will be more unlikely to ever join Nato. Pensioners will get their pensions, and Kiev will get it's taxes..

Hate to break it to you, but this is exactly what Russia wanted. An area on their border that will do whatever it requests of them, and not only that, but someone else will pay for its upkeep. Putin probably can't believe how easy it was.

And to be honest, neither can I.

woodrow wyatt

Poroshenko the warmonger in full flow.
youtube.com/watch?v=aHWHqj8g7Bk#t=10

The looks like the junta has been thrown under the bus by the British government how else could you explain this BBC new report.
bbc.com/news/magazine-31359021

We see the bully got a bloody nose in the Ukraine and is now gearing up for a easier fight, the third invasion of Iraq is back on the cards.
Got to keep the military industrial complex show on the road.

[MOD]Discussion by Youtube. No.[/MOD]

KingBrian2

Shurimgreat wrote: »

What kind of deal is that?

First of all America didn't annex any part of Iraq. The country has held several democratic elections since where the people are free to choose who they want.

That's nice so now can we do it without all the car bombs in the background.

No but to be serious any election that has such an inordinate amount of carnage is not an election. In my opinion it is a publicity stunt. You don't care about the safety of the voters just sending them off to get killed. How could they have been free and fair elections with so much violence and not be impacted by the daily carnage. Your a Catholic living up the North your going to vote in a Catholic party no matter what, same in Iraq, a Shi'ite in a district that is constantly targeted by terrorists your going to vote for Shi'ites. So it is all an exercise in futility. I would consider all elections post invasion null and void. Bring the parties together like in Dayton, Belfast or Oslo and trash out the important personalities so that elections be held.

Hibernosaur

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but this is exactly what Russia wanted. An area on their border that will do whatever it requests of them, and not only that, but someone else will pay for its upkeep. Putin probably can't believe how easy it was.

And to be honest, neither can I.

Your not breaking anything to me, I know a hell of a lot about Ukrainian and Russian politics . I have first hand experience and am in dialy contact with people (Friends, relative) in Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

irishinrussia

Shurimgreat wrote: »

My take on the situation is that region of Eastern Ukraine is now populated with mafia-like warlords trying to carve out areas with a loose alliance with Moscow. This is Moscow's prefered modus operendi in other areas of dispute.
They have no interest in democracy. Human rights, free speech will be severely curtailed. Independent journalists will be disappeared. Anyone who opposes Moscow will disappear.
All this has already happened in Crimea.
Make no mistake Russia has won here.
It never changes direction, ever.
The focus of the West will move elsewhere, and Eastern Ukraine will gradually fall into the Russian sphere of influence. In a year or two a rigged referendum will be held in the area voting for unification with Russia, it will be carried, Russia will recognise the outcome and the result will be the same as in Crimea.

I don't dispute that the Minsk agreement looks like a victory for Russia, at least in terms of Ukraine, longer term in relation to Russia's other geo-political ambitions it is more difficult to see. Crimea is not even being discussed. Russia will now be consulted in EU-Ukraine partnership negotiations (the very demand which was refused 18 months ago and refusing which indirectly sparked the entire mess - if Country A wants to have free trade with both bloc B and bloc C, but bloc B and C do not have free trade agreements then tri-lateral negotiations are an absolute necessity). The Donbass region will remain within Ukraine but, subject to further negotiations, will receive some autonomy. Kiev will step by step regain control over its borders and territory (minus Crimea). Both sides are to stop shooting and pull back heavy weapons (which two points are very likely to fail, both sides repeatedly violated the last cease fire). The economic blockade of the East is to come to an end.

All these points are more or less what Russia has been calling for all along (the Russians declared there was no military solution possible here and called fro negotiations - Kiev and its Western backers hoped for a military solution). Russia does not want Donbass in the same way it wanted Crimea - if it did, there has been ample opportunity for a full scale invasion. Russian troops may or may not have been involved in the fighting, the Russian army was not involved en masse - if it had been then Russia and its local supporters would have driven as far into Ukrainian territory as they wished (this is what discredits the Kiev claims of 9 000 Russian troops - anything like that number of well armed, trained and, relative to the Ukrainian army, organised and led, Russian regulars would have very quickly established Russian dominance on the ground).

Continuing to peddle the idea that Russia took Crimea against the will of the locals and rigged the referendum is simply ridiculous. If you want to claim it violated international law or convention or agreements, a debate is possible. However, only the ill informed or rabidly pro-Kiev/anti-Moscow deny that the return of Crimea to Russia was anything other than the desire of the vast majority of the population. Crimea came home largely because Crimea's people wanted to come home - they never really wanted to be part of Ukraine, they were attached to Ukraine without consultation by the USSR when it was believed the USSR would last forever, they felt their ties with Russia and use of Russian were under threat and they were no doubt tired of seeing their chosen leader deposed. Yanukovich won rigged elections in 2004. Street protests resulted in the Western candidate, Yushchenko getting the presidency. In 2010 Yuanukovich won the elections fairly, a few years later he was deposed by the people who lost in 2010.

Journalists, Human Rights and opponents of the Government here are not under the kind of threats you seem to think. I live in Russia and free speech is not in serious danger. I have open and public discussions with people on a daily basis. The real opposition is the Communist party, not the deeply unpopular and eclectic bunch of loons who are portrayed as the opposition by Western media (ranging from Kasparov to the corrupt cast offs from the Yeltsin regime - Nemtsov - Oligarch criminals to Monarchists to real fascists to the downright weird National Bolsheviks of Edouard Limonov). The danger for journalists related primarily to shady businessmen and trouble spots like Chechnya and Dagestan, not the government. Disappearances and human rights abuses are not happening in Crimea - I have checked, it seems a few "activists" and "journalists" were reported kidnapped by pro-Kiev media, but there is no follow up on the immediate allegations of abduction. Given the glee with which such stories are reported if they in any way discredit Mr Putin, this indicates either the initial allegations were false or that they were quickly released.

Icepick

irishinrussia wrote: »

I don't dispute that the Minsk agreement looks like a victory for Russia, at least in terms of Ukraine, longer term in relation to Russia's other geo-political ambitions it is more difficult to see. Crimea is not even being discussed. Russia will now be consulted in EU-Ukraine partnership negotiations (the very demand which was refused 18 months ago and refusing which indirectly sparked the entire mess - if Country A wants to have free trade with both bloc B and bloc C, but bloc B and C do not have free trade agreements then tri-lateral negotiations are an absolute necessity). The Donbass region will remain within Ukraine but, subject to further negotiations, will receive some autonomy. Kiev will step by step regain control over its borders and territory (minus Crimea). Both sides are to stop shooting and pull back heavy weapons (which two points are very likely to fail, both sides repeatedly violated the last cease fire). The economic blockade of the East is to come to an end.

All these points are more or less what Russia has been calling for all along (the Russians declared there was no military solution possible here and called fro negotiations - Kiev and its Western backers hoped for a military solution). Russia does not want Donbass in the same way it wanted Crimea - if it did, there has been ample opportunity for a full scale invasion. Russian troops may or may not have been involved in the fighting, the Russian army was not involved en masse - if it had been then Russia and its local supporters would have driven as far into Ukrainian territory as they wished (this is what discredits the Kiev claims of 9 000 Russian troops - anything like that number of well armed, trained and, relative to the Ukrainian army, organised and led, Russian regulars would have very quickly established Russian dominance on the ground).

Continuing to peddle the idea that Russia took Crimea against the will of the locals and rigged the referendum is simply ridiculous. If you want to claim it violated international law or convention or agreements, a debate is possible. However, only the ill informed or rabidly pro-Kiev/anti-Moscow deny that the return of Crimea to Russia was anything other than the desire of the vast majority of the population. Crimea came home largely because Crimea's people wanted to come home - they never really wanted to be part of Ukraine, they were attached to Ukraine without consultation by the USSR when it was believed the USSR would last forever, they felt their ties with Russia and use of Russian were under threat and they were no doubt tired of seeing their chosen leader deposed. Yanukovich won rigged elections in 2004. Street protests resulted in the Western candidate, Yushchenko getting the presidency. In 2010 Yuanukovich won the elections fairly, a few years later he was deposed by the people who lost in 2010.

Journalists, Human Rights and opponents of the Government here are not under the kind of threats you seem to think. I live in Russia and free speech is not in serious danger. I have open and public discussions with people on a daily basis. The real opposition is the Communist party, not the deeply unpopular and eclectic bunch of loons who are portrayed as the opposition by Western media (ranging from Kasparov to the corrupt cast offs from the Yeltsin regime - Nemtsov - Oligarch criminals to Monarchists to real fascists to the downright weird National Bolsheviks of Edouard Limonov). The danger for journalists related primarily to shady businessmen and trouble spots like Chechnya and Dagestan, not the government. Disappearances and human rights abuses are not happening in Crimea - I have checked, it seems a few "activists" and "journalists" were reported kidnapped by pro-Kiev media, but there is no follow up on the immediate allegations of abduction. Given the glee with which such stories are reported if they in any way discredit Mr Putin, this indicates either the initial allegations were false or that they were quickly released.

World press freedom index 2014
Russia 148th

And it's getting worse - Russia Moves to Silence Independent Broadcaster

Internet freedom in Vladimir Putin’s Russia: The noose tightens

Top 5 in freedom to spread propaganda in Russia and abroad though.

Russia's Online-Comment Propaganda Army
Russian Propaganda Is Taking Over Online Comment Boards

Elmer Blooker

only a matter of time before RT is banned in the US of A I would think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwnOJQffrv0