Ukraines PM - "We still remember well the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany. "

poggyone

What do people here make of the 3/4 videos that have appeared over the weekend which have soldiers in Ukraine uniforms, in the Ukraine,but they speak with american accents?
We read about russian backed rebels but see no video proof, then maybe here is proof of usa boots on the ground.
Have not seen any coverage in the media in the west. Seems a bit strange.

Ozymandius2011

poggyone wrote: »

What do people here make of the 3/4 videos that have appeared over the weekend which have soldiers in Ukraine uniforms, in the Ukraine,but they speak with american accents?
We read about russian backed rebels but see no video proof, then maybe here is proof of usa boots on the ground.
Have not seen any coverage in the media in the west. Seems a bit strange.

If its the video I am thinking of (where the American voices are only on phones) then I believe it to be faked by Russian state TV. Stopfake.com has a large catalogue of examples of fakery by the Putin media. One of the first things Putin did when coming to power was to nationalise parts of the media critical of him, such as the Media Most empire that used to have a programme similar to Spitting Image called I think Kukly. Putin sent troops to the HQ and the old crew were replaced with a loyalist one. For more on this see "The Putin System" documentary on youtube. You should not trust propaganda from a dictator. You can argue (as pro-Russians online have done) that there is propaganda on the Western media too. The difference is that in comparison with Russia, the media is a lot freer and as Fox News and CNN prove, vary drastically in political allegiances.

Dmitry Kiselyov - head of Putin propaganda channel company "Russia Today" - admitted they used video from Kabardino-Balkaria and said it was from Ukraine. Also Stopfake.com claims that photos of Russian massacres in Chechnya have been used to smear Ukraine.

Gatling

poggyone wrote: »

What do people here make of the 3/4 videos that have appeared over the weekend which have soldiers in Ukraine uniforms, in the Ukraine,but they speak with american accents?
We read about russian backed rebels but see no video proof, then maybe here is proof of usa boots on the ground.
Have not seen any coverage in the media in the west. Seems a bit strange.

Post link please

Ozymandius2011

Gatling wrote: »

Post link please

Its likely a fake I saw posted a few days ago. See below. Note that we don't see faces speaking English. Anyone could edit in the sound using software like Windows Movie Maker.

cerastes

What was the Russian intention prior to any sanctions?
I nearly forgot how this all started, or at least how the Russians became involved?
Was it concern over Ukraine joining NATO and/or losing their Black Sea Naval base?, then deciding its not secure without the whole of the Crimea as it was Russian previously?
ANd the Eastern Ukraine? absorb it into the Russian borders? a closer but incomplete landbridge to Crimea too? or grab the Coal producing regions of Ukraine and hamstring them/make them really completely dependent on Russia so they dont join NATO, or all of the above, or none, some even?

Ozymandius2011

cerastes wrote: »

What was the Russian intention prior to any sanctions?
I nearly forgot how this all started, or at least how the Russians became involved?
Was it concern over Ukraine joining NATO and/or losing their Black Sea Naval base?, then deciding its not secure without the whole of the Crimea as it was Russian previously?
ANd the Eastern Ukraine? absorb it into the Russian borders? a closer but incomplete landbridge to Crimea too? or grab the Coal producing regions of Ukraine and hamstring them/make them really completely dependent on Russia so they dont join NATO, or all of the above, or none, some even?

Putin described in 1999 in his autobiography the collapse of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century". So I think his ultimate goal is to re-establish it - perhaps under another name. Tajikistan (which no longer has many Russians following an exodus in the 1990s) is recently coming under pressure to join the Eurasian Economic Union (formerly called the Russia-Belarus-Kazakstan Customs Union) as is Moldova. Russia uses support for separatism - and the threat of it - as leverage to push countries into integration with Russia. Putin has bullied the EU into suspending implementation of the trade elements of the EU Association Agreement with Ukraine for at least a year and EU states have said it won't be implemented until issues are sorted out with Russia.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Ozymandius2011

Another possibly doctored Russian video. It shows what it claims are Ukrainian soldiers speaking English (but with their faces covered).

BoJack Horseman

The first part, the Texan drawl is as fake as it gets......

The 2nd part sounds a little more authentic, but still not quite there.

cerastes

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Putin described in 1999 in his autobiography the collapse of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century". So I think his ultimate goal is to re-establish it - perhaps under another name. Tajikistan (which no longer has many Russians following an exodus in the 1990s) is recently coming under pressure to join the Eurasian Economic Union (formerly called the Russia-Belarus-Kazakstan Customs Union) as is Moldova. Russia uses support for separatism - and the threat of it - as leverage to push countries into integration with Russia. Putin has bullied the EU into suspending implementation of the trade elements of the EU Association Agreement with Ukraine for at least a year and EU states have said it won't be implemented until issues are sorted out with Russia.

As an energy/economic bloc to counter the EU or a military alliance to counter NATO?

BoJack Horseman

cerastes wrote: »

As an energy/economic bloc to counter the EU or a military alliance to counter NATO?

Primarily the former, but I wouldn't doubt he fantasises the latter.

Dannyboy83

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Its likely a fake I saw posted a few days ago. See below. Note that we don't see faces speaking English. Anyone could edit in the sound using software like Windows Movie Maker.

That accent at :45 doesn't sound American, it sounds South African.

Iwasfrozen

cerastes wrote: »

As an energy/economic bloc to counter the EU or a military alliance to counter NATO?

The Eurasian Economic Community (EEU) is designed to be a counterpart to the EU while the Collective Security Treaty (CSTO) is the successor of the Warsaw pact and counterpart to NATO.

Icepick

Russian regime behaves like Nazis and like them, they are getting away with it lightly so far.
Since WWII, it's been part of the Soviet (Russian) propaganda to call enemies - real and imagined - fascists.

Let's look at Ukraine:
Ukraine’s Jews lambaste Putin in open letter

Community leaders say Russian president’s warning over growing anti-Semitism does not correspond to facts on the ground

Who’s Really Behind Ukraine’s Synagogue Attacks?

Zissels said he was aware that some elements of the Ukrainian Maidan movement that ousted Yanukovych were enthusiasts of the Nazis. But he also said Russian propaganda has exaggerated the role of neo-Nazis in the new Ukrainian government. “There are those kinds of groups, but they are small, not well organized and do not play a major role,” he said. “There are more neo-Nazi groups in Russia than there are in Ukraine.”

Let's look at Russia then:
Pro-Russian extremists observe the illegitimate Crimean "referendum"

The main organisation which invited right-wing and left-wing extremists to monitor the Crimean "referendum" is the Eurasian Observatory For Democracy & Elections (EODE). It is headed by Luc Michel (1958) and Jean-Pierre Vandersmissen (???). Both are followers of the major Belgian collaborationist and neo-Nazi Jean-François Thiriart and members of the extreme right Parti Communautaire National-Européen (PCN-NCP).

Piskorski, head of ‘international observers’ in the Crimea is ‘known fascist and anti-semite'

edit: url fix

BoJack Horseman

The Ukrainian air force is a shadow of its former self.

In an article from the pretty good 'War is Boring' blog, it articulates the massive losses Ukraine has had to suffer in the past year.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/ukraine-has-lost-half-its-warplanes-f0c8fe677e79

gandalf

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The Ukrainian air force is a shadow of its former self.

In an article from the pretty good 'War is Boring' blog, it articulates the massive losses Ukraine has had to suffer in the past year.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/ukraine-has-lost-half-its-warplanes-f0c8fe677e79

I wonder will the US supply the Ukraine with some armed drones? That could really rebalance the situation if the Rebels and "Friends" didn't have the ability to move so freely in the occupied territories.

SamHarris

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm still waiting for the Putinbots to discuss SamHarris's post.

Typically when there is no good rebuttal the statement is just ignored or the person who stated it is labelled as "anti Russian". The same tactic the Kremlin themselves use and appears to be very effective with those that desperatly want to agree with them.

On the constant propaganda given out by the Kremlins mouth pieces - note no longer is the purpose to put forward an opposing theory backed up by evidence, they only toss out as much noise as possible trying to create the illusion that there really is no truth, just opinion. for example when the plane was shot down on RT there was a grand total of six mutually exclusive stories put forward in a week.

Again, similar tactic used on these very forums indicating its something of a trope among CTers and their ilk. As soon as one theory is shot down another is tossed out. Because they see no need for evidence to back up the quackery there is always more theories out there than can be addressed in a cogent, meaningful way.

This allows the Kremlin to get away with outright invading the Crimea, then arming the rebels all the while claiming nothing is going on. Its pretty clear though that Putin and Russia have been shown to be far weaker and more vulnerable than they pretend to over the last few months.

BoJack Horseman

gandalf wrote: »

I wonder will the US supply the Ukraine with some armed drones? That could really rebalance the situation if the Rebels and "Friends" didn't have the ability to move so freely in the occupied territories.

Not a chance.

For a few reasons.

- Drones are pricey & would require a lot of training time for Ukranian operators.
- Drones are very very easy to shoot down.
The MQ-9 'reaper' has a top speed of just 480kmh.....with operational height of about 25,000 ft..... They are also loud & hot, they are easy kills for any enemy above 'cave dwelling jihadi' grade.
- their data link back to ops control can & has been jammed.
Worst case scenario, the Russians could control the UAV, more likely though it shuts down & crashes harmlessly.

All in all a very overt show of force that would be swatted away easily.

It would be embarrassing for the US.

SamHarris

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Not a chance.

For a few reasons.

- Drones are pricey & would require a lot of training time for Ukranian operators.
- Drones are very very easy to shoot down.
The MQ-9 'reaper' has a top speed of just 480kmh.....with operational height of about 25,000 ft..... They are also loud & hot, they are easy kills for any enemy above 'cave dwelling jihadi' grade.
- their data link back to ops control can & has been jammed.
Worst case scenario, the Russians could control the UAV, more likely though it shuts down & crashes harmlessly.

All in all a very overt show of force that would be swatted away easily.

It would be embarrassing for the US.

I'm not really familiar with the ins and outs, but in a modern war between two developed nations would the drones br of use if backed up by the full suite of American electronic and anti air warfare?

BoJack Horseman

SamHarris wrote: »

I'm not really familiar with the ins and outs, but in a modern war between two developed nations would the drones br of use if backed up by the full suite of American electronic and anti air warfare?

They would, but that isn't possible.

Simple reason is: that level of deployment is equal to full scale war.... Not the mid-level assistance of a few reapers/predators implied by gandalf.

More to that, the Boeing EA-18G "growler" (the US Navy's fantastic electronic warfare plane) is carrier deployed.
That would mean moving the US 6th fleet into the black sea, something prohibited by treaty & probable casus belli to the Russians.

So all in all, drone assistance would be 1) futile & a potential embarrassment. & 2) An unnecessary escalation.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Not a chance.

For a few reasons.

- Drones are pricey & would require a lot of training time for Ukranian operators.
- Drones are very very easy to shoot down.
The MQ-9 'reaper' has a top speed of just 480kmh.....with operational height of about 25,000 ft..... They are also loud & hot, they are easy kills for any enemy above 'cave dwelling jihadi' grade.
- their data link back to ops control can & has been jammed.
Worst case scenario, the Russians could control the UAV, more likely though it shuts down & crashes harmlessly.

All in all a very overt show of force that would be swatted away easily.

It would be embarrassing for the US.

Drones wouldn't have to be flown by Ukrainians at all ,
Operators could control them from Germany Poland and lituania ,
As it stands the US alone have in excess of 15,000+ drones on its books ,
Wouldn't take much to ship 10-20+ =to eastern Europe ,
OSCE has requested drones to be deployed already to monitor troop and equipment movements ,
A hand full armed drones operating around the clock to dent the heavy weapons and vehicles currently hanging around in eastern Ukraine ,
You wouldn't even have to armed the drones they could primarily target designate for smart weapons systems

BoJack Horseman

Gatling wrote: »

Drones wouldn't have to be flown by Ukrainians at all ,
Operators could control them from Germany Poland and lituania ,

Unless its Ukrainian owned & operated, its politically intolerable.

As it stands the US alone have in excess of 15,000+ drones on its books ,

Eh...the US has 460 combat UAVs!!

A hand full armed drones operating around the clock to dent the heavy weapons and vehicles currently hanging around in eastern Ukraine ,
You wouldn't even have to armed the drones they could primarily target designate for smart weapons systems

Ukraine already has UAVs for reconnaissance.
They were losing so many to MANPADS that they stopped bothering.

The Ukrainian military has very little precision guided weapons left, so matters little.

gandalf

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Unless its Ukrainian owned & operated, its politically intolerable.

I'm sure "Ukrainians" could operate them against "Rebels"

Ukraine already has UAVs for reconnaissance.
They were losing so many to MANPADS that they stopped bothering.

The Ukrainian military has very little precision guided weapons left, so matters little.

Well if they are going to supply Drones, they would have to supply precision munitions. No point giving someone a hammer without the nails

TBH I don't expect anything like this to happen, I was in reality just talking hypothetically.

However if the EU and US don't ramp up the sanctions visibly this week they will essentially be doing a "Neville Chamberlain" to Putin.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Unless its Ukrainian owned & operated, its politically intolerable.




Eh...the US has 460 combat UAVs!!





Ukraine already has UAVs for reconnaissance.
They were losing so many to MANPADS that they stopped bothering.

The Ukrainian military has very little precision guided weapons left, so matters little.

these are 2012 figures
US. Air Force
MQ-1B Predator 163
MQ-9A Reaper 70
RQ-4B Global Hawk 23
Total……………………256

U.S. Army
RQ-11B Raven 5,394
RQ-7B Shadow 408
MQ-5B Hunter 45
MQ-1C Gray Eagle 19
Total……………………5,866

U.S. Navy
RQ-4A Global Hawk 5
MQ-8B Firescout/TUAV 5
RQ-21A Scan Eagle 122
X-47B UCAS-D 2
Total……………………134

U.S. Marine Corps
RQ-7B Shadow 52
RQ-21A STUAS 8
Total……………………60
GRAND TOTAL…….6,316

Not that it actually matters for this specific thread .
If it's perfectly ok for russian tanks , men, armour and anti air , to get lost while on holiday and set up camp in a sovereign nation ,
Then I can't see why they same can't happen with Armed Drones and smart weapons

BoJack Horseman

gandalf wrote: »

TBH I don't expect anything like this to happen, I was in reality just talking hypothetically.

I hear you.

I've hypothesised too.

For me, its about being more covert....

Ukraine needs munitions that work with their (dwindling) stock of aircraft & ground forces.

If, hypothetically, countries like: Poland, Jordan & Egypt could be persuaded to "modernise" some of their stock, there would be a lot of late soviet/Russian armaments just begging to find a new home.
(Egypt & Jordan (and India) make a lot of Russian kit under licence....)

Comns jamming is killing Ukranian front line movements & is the main reason why they lost Donetsk airport.

Countering this, or providing more secure coms is worth far more than a few predators that could be shot down in minutes.

BoJack Horseman

Gatling wrote: »

these are 2012 figures
US. Air Force
MQ-1B Predator 163
MQ-9A Reaper 70
RQ-4B Global Hawk 23
Total……………………256

U.S. Army
RQ-11B Raven 5,394
RQ-7B Shadow 408
MQ-5B Hunter 45
MQ-1C Gray Eagle 19
Total……………………5,866

U.S. Navy
RQ-4A Global Hawk 5
MQ-8B Firescout/TUAV 5
RQ-21A Scan Eagle 122
X-47B UCAS-D 2
Total……………………134

U.S. Marine Corps
RQ-7B Shadow 52
RQ-21A STUAS 8
Total……………………60
GRAND TOTAL…….6,316

Mate, of the above, only the ones designated "M" carry weapons.

The rest are mostly recon & tiny.

gandalf

Gatling most of those drones are just recon only. I think Bojack is correct with his figures with regard to Drones capable of delivering munitions.

Bojack the key here is bodycount. The more "Rebels" that are killed in the occupied territories, the more bodies and secret burials that occur in mother Russia and the more that people will start to question their fascist leader in Moscow and ignore the lies that are peddled by the Kremlin controlled media

BoJack Horseman

gandalf wrote: »

Gatling most of those drones are just recon only. I think Bojack is correct with his figures with regard to Drones capable of delivering munitions.

Bojack the key here is bodycount. The more "Rebels" that are killed in the occupied territories, the more bodies and secret burials that occur in mother Russia and the more that people will start to question their fascist leader in Moscow and ignore the lies that are peddled by the Kremlin controlled media

I agree.

Ukraine should make Russia bleed for every inch gained.

But suddenly arriving with western weapons won't do it.

Needs more subtlety than that.
(I think Poland has some old radar guided munitions.... if they could be 'liberated' for the cause, that could be a game changer).

gandalf

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

(I think Poland has some old radar guided munitions.... if they could be 'liberated' for the cause, that could be a game changer).

Maybe the Polish army could go on "leave"

cerastes

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I hear you.

I've hypothesised too.

For me, its about being more covert....

Ukraine needs munitions that work with their (dwindling) stock of aircraft & ground forces.

If, hypothetically, countries like: Poland, Jordan & Egypt could be persuaded to "modernise" some of their stock, there would be a lot of late soviet/Russian armaments just begging to find a new home.
(Egypt & Jordan (and India) make a lot of Russian kit under licence....)

Comns jamming is killing Ukranian front line movements & is the main reason why they lost Donetsk airport.

Countering this, or providing more secure coms is worth far more than a few predators that could be shot down in minutes.

Probably better basic equipment, like communication equipment that cant be jammed or is more secure as you say, but weapons for aircraft seems useless if they have a limited availability of aircraft.
Anything dated the Poles have, assuming they have kept older munitions in stock, may not be serviceable either?
It seems like the Ukrainians should be keeping most of what they have left in terms of aircraft back due to manpads.

If anyone started coming in and bombing the rebels with drones or other smarter munitions than the ukraninas currently have available, that seems a fairly expensive way to take out pockets of armed units of only personnel and basic support, the idea tanks or other armoured or other vehicles be taken out would be like directly tackling the Russian military if thats whos there, plus with civilians around that could be a major problem for targeting hardware and possibly turned against the attacker in the press. It would be an in effect war between the newcomer and the rebels and their supporters.
Aside from the Ukranians would need to be trained on any new weapons unless the newcomer operated them themselves.
Gruesome as it sounds, It seems like an ideal way to dispose of older non current munitions that might be stockpiled, dont know if the US fired off all their dragon missles and assume they used up all their laws, Ukranians probably have cheaper access to rpg weapons anyway, but using most of these requires being pretty close, Id have thought even tiny units of observers, with the ability to take out key personnel if they can be identified or specific equipment might be a useful option.
One of the video clips showing Rebels? they mentioned US weapons, M4 M20, Id have thought Russian type weapons would have been as available and more useful in this region.

SeanW

Armistice wrote: »

We Irish of all people should know what it means to have a government try to eradicate and demonize your culture in your own country.

You are absolutely right, indeed we should, which is why we should be unquestioningly on the side of the Ukranian people when they're being attacked (unofficially in this case) by the empire next door.

I suggest you read up a little bit about "Russification" during the final years of the Russian Empire, but infinitely more so during the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin, Moscow tried to Russify significant portions of Eastern Europe.

They almost totally destroyed the national identies of the Baltic States peoples (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia) by murdering and deporting the native peoples and replacing them with Soviet/Russian colonists with the intention of eliminating everything of those nationalities forever. They did the same in Ukraine, which is why there are so many Russians there in the first place.

There is a term for this.

Genocide.

It's the same thing the British Empire did in Ireland, and our Nothern Ireland legacy of this is almost identical to Eastern Ukraine.

Only it's not, because while Ireland is now stable and free, having an independent 26 county republic and a shared, mutually inclusive Northern Ireland, and good relations with the UK now who have shown genuine interest in reconciliation and demonstrated good faith in an effort to deal with the past, Russia is doing nothing of the sort with the peoples it tried to exterminate.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Mate, of the above, only the ones designated "M" carry weapons.

The rest are mostly recon & tiny.

I was referring to over all numbers rather than specific UCAV and UAV types

SamHarris

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

They would, but that isn't possible.

Simple reason is: that level of deployment is equal to full scale war.... Not the mid-level assistance of a few reapers/predators implied by gandalf.

More to that, the Boeing EA-18G "growler" (the US Navy's fantastic electronic warfare plane) is carrier deployed.
That would mean moving the US 6th fleet into the black sea, something prohibited by treaty & probable casus belli to the Russians.

So all in all, drone assistance would be 1) futile & a potential embarrassment. & 2) An unnecessary escalation.

Was not suggesting it, I think the west should not deploy anything of real magnitude. Was just wondering in general.

BoJack Horseman

SamHarris wrote: »

Was not suggesting it, I think the west should not deploy anything of real magnitude. Was just wondering in general.

Its an old document called the 'Montreux Convention'.

It governs passage of the Bosporus.

Essentially, any non-black sea nation(s) can:
- only deploy vessels less that 15,000 tonnes....
- No more than 9 ships at a time
- Their aggregate tonnage not exceed 30,000 tonnes.
- Not to remain on station for more than 21 days.

If the US or Italy to send an aircraft carrier through, Russia would go ape poop.

So If things were to get shneaky, it would have to be by land.

gandalf

Looks like Belarus are trying to ensure the "Bear" doesn't try the same tactics it has used with the Ukraine in their territory.

Belarus has adopted a new law that states the appearance of any foreign fighters on its territory will be viewed as an act of aggression, even if they cannot be identified as regular troops.

The legislation, which takes effect on Feb. 1, seems to be Minsk's response to Russia's actions in neighboring Ukraine, where unmarked Russian troops overran Crimea prior to its annexation last spring and where Russian fighters have led pro-Moscow-separatists in the east.

...

The package of amendments to Belarus' law on the state of war come after repeated warnings from President Alexander Lukashenko that Russia should not meddle in his country.

Moscow has regularly cited its need to protect Russian speakers in Ukraine as a guise for its annexation of Crimea and policy in the east of the country. In apparent response, the Lukashenko administration — which had favored the Russian language for decades despite opposition criticism — has announced plans to restore instruction in Belarussian in the nation's classrooms.

Education Minister Mikhail Zhuravkov said the country would begin a process of "de-Russification" of its schools, with history and geography classes becoming the first subjects to be taught exclusively in Belarussian, the country's Belorusskiye Novosti reported Saturday.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/belarus-is-no-crimea-new-law-views-foreign-fighters-as-act-of-aggression/514942.html

It makes you wonder are they only putting themselves in the "lebensraum" sights of the "Novoführer" in Moscow?

Gatling

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like Belarus are trying to ensure the "Bear" doesn't try the same tactics it has used with the Ukraine in their territory.



http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/belarus-is-no-crimea-new-law-views-foreign-fighters-as-act-of-aggression/514942.html

It makes you wonder are they only putting themselves in the "lebensraum" sights of the "Novoführer" in Moscow?

A bit of bravado i think "derussiafication" is a new one for me cant see anything coming from this at all maybe a vailed threat at some stage from the dark lord

Elmer Blooker

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk , who has in the past publicly praised, and referred to as a hero, historical Ukrainian Nazi SS Stepan Bandera who amongst other things wanted to see the extermination of all Poles and Russians; is again showing his Far right leanings with this recent gaff when speaking with a German news paper:

"All of us still clearly remember the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany, We need to avoid a repeat of it."

"Yats" is not a politician, he's Washington's choice as Ukrainian PM. The hipster glasses, designer stubble and sharp suits may look good when he's wined and dined at the White House but just scratch below the surface and his looney extreme right wing views become apparent.
It is worth mentioning that 70 years ago today the Red Army liberated Auschwitz in Poland while they were on their way to invade peace loving Germany!
It is also worth mentioning that the only nationality trusted by the nazis to be guards in the death camps were Ukrainian, they were even more feared by Poles, Jews, Russian pows than the SS.

BoJack Horseman

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

"Yats" is not a politician, he's Washington's choice as Ukrainian PM. The hipster glasses, designer stubble and sharp suits may look good when he's wined and dined at the White House but just scratch below the surface and his looney extreme right wing views become apparent.
It is worth mentioning that 70 years ago today the Red Army liberated Auschwitz in Poland while they were on their way to invade peace loving Germany!
It is also worth mentioning that the only nationality trusted by the nazis to be guards in the death camps were Ukrainian, they were even more feared by Poles, Jews, Russian pows than the SS.

Didn't you post this exact thing before?

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

It is worth mentioning that 70 years ago today the Red Army liberated Auschwitz in Poland while they were on their way to invade peace loving Germany!
It is also worth mentioning that the only nationality trusted by the nazis to be guards in the death camps were Ukrainian, they were even more feared by Poles, Jews, Russian pows than the SS.

And your point is?
I could also go along in this vein as it's also worth noting that the Russians hopped into bed with the Nazi's and carved up Poland in 1939?

However all this is in the past and yes while we do owe our gratitude to the Russian forces in helping defeat the Nazi's in Europe it doesn't give them a blank check to ignore international law and boundaries today!

Gatling

Didn't the Russians ban the polish units from taking part on the VE celebrations something the UK should be never forgiven for ,

Funny how russia have been painted as the poster boy for freedom and democracy

Iwasfrozen

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

"Yats" is not a politician, he's Washington's choice as Ukrainian PM. The hipster glasses, designer stubble and sharp suits may look good when he's wined and dined at the White House but just scratch below the surface and his looney extreme right wing views become apparent.
It is worth mentioning that 70 years ago today the Red Army liberated Auschwitz in Poland while they were on their way to invade peace loving Germany!
It is also worth mentioning that the only nationality trusted by the nazis to be guards in the death camps were Ukrainian, they were even more feared by Poles, Jews, Russian pows than the SS.

What did the Red Army do to German soldiers who surrendered to them? Just curiosity?

And all those countries the Russian's "liberated", were they allowed free and fair elections?

Surely the Soviets at least gave back the land they stole from Poland after the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, no?

Icepick

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

"Yats" is not a politician, he's Washington's choice as Ukrainian PM. The hipster glasses, designer stubble and sharp suits may look good when he's wined and dined at the White House but just scratch below the surface and his looney extreme right wing views become apparent.
It is worth mentioning that 70 years ago today the Red Army liberated Auschwitz in Poland while they were on their way to invade peace loving Germany!
It is also worth mentioning that the only nationality trusted by the nazis to be guards in the death camps were Ukrainian, they were even more feared by Poles, Jews, Russian pows than the SS.

The Soviet regime was as criminal and genocidal as the Nazis. There was a lot of sacrifice from ordinary civilians and soldiers, but Stalin started the war with the Nazis by invading Poland and had plans to invade Europe. USSR supplied Nazis until the invasion and tried to invade and occupy Finland.
The "liberation" was in fact a tragedy for most of Central and Eastern Europe, which was enslaved by the Soviets after the war.

Ozymandius2011

gandalf wrote: »

Looks like Belarus are trying to ensure the "Bear" doesn't try the same tactics it has used with the Ukraine in their territory.



http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/belarus-is-no-crimea-new-law-views-foreign-fighters-as-act-of-aggression/514942.html

It makes you wonder are they only putting themselves in the "lebensraum" sights of the "Novoführer" in Moscow?

This is very ironic given Lukashenko has spent 20 years carrying out Russification. He came to power on the back of a backlash against Belarusisation and has presided over the closure of Belarusian language schools. Since coming to power Belarusian speakers have declined from 30% to at most 10%.

karma_

Icepick wrote: »

The Soviet regime was as criminal and genocidal as the Nazis. There was a lot of sacrifice from ordinary civilians and soldiers, but Stalin started the war with the Nazis by invading Poland and had plans to invade Europe. USSR supplied Nazis until the invasion and tried to invade and occupy Finland.
The "liberation" was in fact a tragedy for most of Central and Eastern Europe, which was enslaved by the Soviets after the war.

Which makes it incredibly ironic that without Russia the Allies could never have won the war.

Ozymandius2011

karma_ wrote: »

Which makes it incredibly ironic that without Russia the Allies could never have won the war.

Well in June 1944 35% of the Soviet army was Ukrainian so the same argument could perhaps be made about Ukraine. Only 53% was Russian.

Icepick

Insight into how insane Russian propaganda is:

"We often say: Ukrainian army this, the Ukrainian army that. In actual fact though, who is fighting there? These are indeed official subunits of the armed forces. But to a large extent these are so-called volunteer nationalist battalions," Putin said.
"In effect, it is no longer an army but a foreign legion -- in this case NATO's foreign legion -- which does not of course pursue Ukraine's national interests. They have a completely different agenda that is connected with achieving the geopolitical objective of containing Russia."

http://www.rferl.org/content/putins-fantasy-island/26816242.html

karma_

Icepick wrote: »

Insight into how insane Russian propaganda is:


http://www.rferl.org/content/putins-fantasy-island/26816242.html

Isn't all propaganda?

Hibernosaur

Icepick wrote: »

Insight into how insane Russian propaganda is:



"We often say: Ukrainian army this, the Ukrainian army that. In actual fact though, who is fighting there? These are indeed official subunits of the armed forces. But to a large extent these are so-called volunteer nationalist battalions," Putin said.

Are you denying the existence of Asov Battalion and the other dozen or so unofficial far right military battalions? These openly fight alongside and on behalf of the regular military.

Ukrainian news (Not Russian) about young men joining.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/teenage-warriors-prepare-for-battle-as-part-of-right-sectors-ukrainian-volunteer-corps-378607.html

Do you still think the battalions don't exist?

https://www.google.com/search?q=asov&espv=2&biw=1164&bih=817&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=NKHIVL6FFq6P7AbO74CYBQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=azov+battalion

He's right about these sub units. Asov currently polices Mariupol (If the Ukrainian Rebels haven't kicked them out yet)

Hibernosaur

Icepick wrote: »

The situation in Odessa was a riot that was started by the pro-Russians and pre-organised on social media as an attempt to declare an Odessa republic. They beat up pro-Kiev activists but found they had started a fight they couldn't win.

So during a revolution various Maidan mobs were seizing government buildings. Some Ukrainians who didn't agree with the revolution attempted to stage their own protest, and were burned alive. You justify it by calling them Pro Russian.

They were Ukrainians. Burned alive for having a different political viewpoint (Wanting to keep the official Ukrainian government they elected) There is no justification.

Calling a Ukrainian a pro russian does not make them fair game for eradication.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

So during a revolution various Maidan mobs were seizing government buildings. Some Ukrainians who didn't agree with the revolution attempted to stage their own protest, and were burned alive. You justify it by calling them Pro Russian.

They were Ukrainians. Burned alive for having a different political viewpoint (Wanting to keep the official Ukrainian government they elected) There is no justification.

Calling a Ukrainian a pro russian does not make them fair game for eradication.

can You post verified links