Ukraines PM - "We still remember well the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany. "

poggyone

Gatling wrote: »

I see the US loaned the Ukrainians 2bn today for near term social spending for continuing down the anti corruption road ,

Once they completed the exorcism of russian influence id say they could well be a shinning example to other states fearing czar putin

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL6N0V71BQ20150128?irpc=932

You do know all the money given to Ukraine, under international law Russia has the right to claim for money owed for Gas?
Russia has showed great restraint by not calling in all the money owed,if it did the Ukraine would collapse as we know it.

gandalf

poggyone wrote: »

By your own standards you will have to do better than that.
If Russia today is not accepted as a valid source how can we accept Ukraine Today as a valid source?

So where is the proof?

Do I know you. As far as I am aware we have never interacted before.

Isn't that right

(s8080, mmmcake)

poggyone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Crimea is historically Russian? Hmm, don't think so pal Crimea was Turkish for a long time before it was Russian.

But how about we stop all this invading nonsense and just let the people who live in regions decide what country they want to live in?

That would mean holding fair referendums in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine to give people a chance to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.

And while we're at it, Russia can do the same for Crimea and Dagestan. Sound fair?

How about the USA return to power the legally elected government to power in Kiev?

poggyone

gandalf wrote: »

Do I know you. As far as I am aware we have never interacted before.

Isn't that right

(s8080, mmmcake)

Alas not me, you will have to do better
Have been keeping a eye on here for about 2 weeks, the pattern of denial is obvious, when confronted by facts you don't like it.

Gatling

poggyone wrote: »

You do know all the money given to Ukraine, under international law Russia has the right to claim for money owed for Gas?
Russia has showed great restraint by not calling in all the money owed,if it did the Ukraine would collapse as we know it.

Now the price of gas has dropped dramatically it now seems russia need's Ukraine custom now more than ever ,makes negotiations all in Ukraines favour
Funny all the pro putins crowd predicted a bleak and dark winter for europe and Ukraine now Russia has reached junk status on the trading markets ,

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Crimea is historically Russian? Hmm, don't think so pal Crimea was Turkish for a long time before it was Russian.

But how about we stop all this invading nonsense and just let the people who live in regions decide what country they want to live in?

That would mean holding fair referendums in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine to give people a chance to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.

And while we're at it, Russia can do the same for Crimea and Dagestan. Sound fair?

Well it has a more recent claim on it than Turkey now doesn't it? However this doesn't belie the fact that geopolitics is a dirty rotten game, and all nation states participate in it. Did anyone really think Russia was going to allow the Sevastopol naval base to fall out of their sphere if influence? No more that the US would allow Okinawa or Guantanamo to go back to their rightful owners.

poggyone

Gatling wrote: »

Now the price of gas has dropped dramatically it now seems russia need's Ukraine custom now more than ever ,makes negotiations all in Ukraines favour
,

So why is russia building a pipe line to turkey so they can bypass Ukraine?
Every one of your post reads like a NATO press release, do you have a original thought?

pablomakaveli

poggyone wrote: »

By your own standards you will have to do better than that.
If Russia today is not accepted as a valid source how can we accept Ukraine Today as a valid source?

So where is the proof?

That was from a broadcast on Russian television.

poggyone

pablomakaveli wrote: »

That was from a broadcast on Russian television.

Says Ukraine Today.
Ergo not a good source according to the unofficial rules here

Iwasfrozen

poggyone wrote: »

How about the USA return to power the legally elected government to power in Kiev?

There is a legally elected government in Kiev.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014

Unless you're implying the October elections were illegal?

Gatling

poggyone wrote: »

So why is russia building a pipe line to turkey so they can bypass Ukraine?
Every one of your post reads like a NATO press release, do you have a original thought?

Proposing a pipeline not for the first time they have proposed a major project only for it to fall flat on its ass ,
Once more sanctions are imposed I'm pretty sure we won't see the pipeline happening any time soon .

Now if that's pro Nato or pro US you must be reading the wrong forum

poggyone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There is a legally elected government in Kiev.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014

Unless you're implying the October elections were illegal?

How are they legal? The donbass region did not get to vote.
The legitimate government was overthrown illegally, therefore any government that follows is illegal.
To say otherwise is hypocrisy of the highest order.
I suppose you could call whats in power at the moment a Junta, name me one of them in history which was legitimate.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

Well it has a more recent claim on it than Turkey now doesn't it? However this doesn't belie the fact that geopolitics is a dirty rotten game, and all nation states participate in it. Did anyone really think Russia was going to allow the Sevastopol naval base to fall out of their sphere if influence? No more that the US would allow Okinawa or Guantanamo to go back to their rightful owners.

Russia can keep Sevastopol, to a non nation like Russia the only real benefit of holding Sevastopol is to deny possession to other countries.

Ukraine is a much greater prize in the long term and Russian actions in Crimea have forced the country into NATO's arms.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There is a legally elected government in Kiev.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014

Unless you're implying the October elections were illegal?

OK but there are very serious questions about what is happening in Ukraine and what particular ideology they adhere to, I don't trust them at all, just a look at some of their flags and emblems and you have wolfsangels and runes everywhere, and this statement in the OP? You just casually dismissed it and stated your desire for them to be in NATO. I don't want Ukraine in the EU and it would be extremely dangerous to admit them to NATO, no thanks.

poggyone

Gatling wrote: »

Proposing a pipeline not for the first time they have proposed a major project only for it to fall flat on its ass ,
Once more sanctions are imposed I'm pretty sure we won't see the pipeline happening

Its a bit further along than a proposal, its signed sealed and delivered,hence the panicked statements coming out of brussels.

Gatling

poggyone wrote: »

How are they legal? The donbass region did not get to vote.
The legitimate government was overthrown illegally, therefore any government that follows is illegal.
To say otherwise is hypocrisy of the highest order.
I suppose you could call whats in power at the moment a Junta, name me one of them in history which was legitimate.

Corrupt russian puppet government

Iwasfrozen

poggyone wrote: »

How are they legal? The donbass region did not get to vote.
The legitimate government was overthrown illegally, therefore any government that follows is illegal.
To say otherwise is hypocrisy of the highest order.
I suppose you could call whats in power at the moment a Junta, name me one of them in history which was legitimate.

The Donbass region is in open rebellion, extending the vote to that region was obviously not possible. Better for Donbass and Luhansk to just go ahead and join Russia because there's nothing for them in Ukraine any more.

Erm, that's kind of how revolution works, the old corrupt order is swept away on a tide of public discontent. Yanukovych played too close to Russian and for that e paid the price.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Russia can keep Sevastopol, to a non nation like Russia the only real benefit of holding Sevastopol is to deny possession to other countries.

Ukraine is a much greater prize in the long term and Russian actions in Crimea have forced the country into NATO's arms.

Do you seriously believe that? Theres nothing there they want, if they did their troops would be in and fighting for it, and let's be honest Ukraine wouldn't have a hope of defending itself in that scenario. It just suits Russia to have that conflagration as it is, I imagine they are pretty indifferent to the ordinary folk living in Donetsk.

A non-nation? What does that even mean?

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

OK but there are very serious questions about what is happening in Ukraine and what particular ideology they adhere to, I don't trust them at all, just a look at some of their flags and emblems and you have wolfsangels and runes everywhere, and this statement in the OP? You just casually dismissed it and stated your desire for them to be in NATO. I don't want Ukraine in the EU and it would be extremely dangerous to admit them to NATO, no thanks.

Show me one major neo nazi Ukrainian political party. Svoboda have 7 out of 450 seats in Parliament or 1.56% while Right Sector have 1 out of 450 seats or 0.22%.

The extreme right are no where near as prominent as Russian propaganda claim it to be. The Russians btw have since WWII been of the habit of labelling any external or internal threat as fascist.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

Do you seriously believe that? Theres nothing there they want, if they did their troops would be in and fighting for it, and let's be honest Ukraine wouldn't have a hope of defending itself in that scenario. It just suits Russia to have that conflagration as it is, I imagine they are pretty indifferent to the ordinary folk living in Donetsk.

A non-nation? What does that even mean?

Apologies, I meant a non naval nation.

I hope you're right about Ukraine, it will make their assimilation into the EU and NATO much easier.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Show me one major neo nazi Ukrainian political party. Svoboda have 7 out of 450 seats in Parliament or 1.56% while Right Sector have 1 out of 450 seats or 0.22%.

The extreme right are no where near as prominent as Russian propaganda claim it to be. The Russians btw have since WWII been of the habit of labelling any external or internal threat as fascist.

My opinion has little to do with what Russia are saying, just my own observations, least of which are these comments, which are extremely worrying and I can't imagine what else he could have meant, it certainly has Nazi overtones, whether you like it or not. Like I said previously, I'm very dubious about a lot of things I've seen coming out of Ukraine and until that gets cleared up then they can just bugger off and stay away from the EU.

Icepick

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

All coups are illegal.

It wasn't a coup.
Yanukovych was ousted by the democratically elected Ukrainian parliament.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

My opinion has little to do with what Russia are saying, just my own observations, least of which are these comments, which are extremely worrying and I can't imagine what else he could have meant, it certainly has Nazi overtones, whether you like it or not. Like I said previously, I'm very dubious about a lot of things I've seen coming out of Ukraine and until that gets cleared up then they can just bugger off and stay away from the EU.

Again show me one major neo nazi political party in Ukraine.

There's no internal reason why Ukraine can't join the EU and NATO.

Gatling

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Again show me one major neo nazi political party in Ukraine.

There's no internal reason why Ukraine can't join the EU and NATO.

There is only one issue really which was endemic corruption from the top down after successive pro Kremlin governments ,
Heads of the military , police , civil service all pro russia those at the top got well paid while rank and file military personnel and police got pittance which led to many police officers setting up essentially illegal check points to fund there pay cheques ,
It's also widely believed 90% of government subventions were given to eastern Ukraine based companies and politicians , while the majority of Ukraine population got feck all public spending .
The military was the same when the people you entrust to protect your population and borders are supremely loyal to a foreign government you have major problems ,
Again general's and the rest of the officer Corp got very well paid mean while rank and file were poor paid , equipped and trained .
One commentator pointed out they various military benches practically no qualified nco' s .
But look at the other side of corruption in Ukraine anyone who ran under pro europe was discredited in show trials where dodgy deals had been done with one particular. Company who also supplied the evidence in what's believed were show trials .
Gazprom funny that

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Again show me one major neo nazi political party in Ukraine.

There's no internal reason why Ukraine can't join the EU and NATO.

There's far-right fascistic signals oozing out of that country. Not sure why you are so keenly myopic of it. Not only them but Russia too has it's own far-right elements. Not to say one day both couldn't be integrated into the EU but to do so now would be lunacy.

Gatling

karma_ wrote: »

There's far-right fascistic signals oozing out of that country. Not sure why you are so keenly myopic of it. Not only them but Russia too has it's own far-right elements. Not to say one day both couldn't be integrated into the EU but to do so now would be lunacy.

Plenty of far right groups across Europe , some gaining in political strength , what's wrong with litteally another handful from Ukraine

karma_

Gatling wrote: »

Plenty of far right groups across Europe , some gaining in political strength , what's wrong with litteally another handful from Ukraine

I'm glad you are so certain, and I hope your right but if a PM of any country stood up and said what this guy did then my ears are going to perk up.

Gatling

karma_ wrote: »

I'm glad you are so certain, and I hope your right but if a PM of any country stood up and said what this guy did then my ears are going to perk up.

What did he say that alarmed you ,

Hibernosaur

Lemming wrote: »

poggyone, you seem to be throwing NAZI!!NAZI!!NAZI!!! around with gay abandon in the hope that somehow it distracts everyone from the reason why the likes of the Asov battalion formed in the first place .... foreign invasion & subterfuge aimed at annexing parts of the Ukraine by Russia.

That Azov have far right leanings - indeed racist ones at that - is without dispute. Their flag - bedecked in red & black - and the alteration fo the Ukranian flag to include a swastika-like symbol is obvious. But again; what has any of that to do with the fact that the Russians are expending considerable effort, money, and men in trying to annex parts of another country?

Are there foreign nationals fighting for Azov? Yes I'm sure there are. Show me any war in history where foreign nationals did not fight on one side or the other, or both. Again, and again, and again I shall point out the convenient ignoring of Putin's full statement; which was not that a single foreigner fought for the Ukranians, but that there was a legion assembled by, or led by proxy, at the behest of NATO. In any case; Putin has some neck to try and swing that lie given he's sending thousands of Russian soldiers into the Ukraine under orders, "on holiday" of course.

I'm sure you'll just keep shouting "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE NAZIS" in response as if that answers anything.

Chain of events mean anything to you?

This started with the Far right turning a massive protest into a violent overthrow. Russia is reacting. Russia did not start this conflict. Far right nationalists attacking police with Molotov cocktails and taking over government buildings did. The elected parliament of the autonomous republic of Crimea saw the state of Kiev and what was happening there and said not on our land you won't. They invited Russia to intervene and lock down the Crimean border and Russia happily obliged and corrected a historical administrative cock up at the same time.

gandalf

Hibernosaur wrote: »

This started with the Far right turning a protest into an overthrow. Russia reacted to the far right.

So you are admitting that Russia has invaded the Ukraine then?

Hibernosaur

Gatling wrote: »

Plenty of far right groups across Europe , some gaining in political strength , what's wrong with litteally another handful from Ukraine

This "handful" have tanks and guns, are trained and have killed, and in the not so distant future they will have EU Visa free travel.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

This "handful" have tanks and guns, are trained and have killed, and in the not so distant future they will have EU Visa free travel.

No they don't .
Sure what's stopping the russian infantry doing the same like in eastern Ukraine

Hibernosaur

gandalf wrote: »

So you are admitting that Russia has invaded the Ukraine then?

Russia annexed Crimea at the invitation of the Crimean government, and via referendum (albeit hasty) as the Ukrainian government had been ousted by a large mob. Organised cells of Far right activists made the ousting possible.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Russia annexed Crimea at the invitation of the Crimean government, as the Ukrainian government had been ousted and the Ukrainian government essentially over ruled by a large mob.

Ousted the strictly pro russian puppet regime

Hibernosaur

Gatling wrote: »

Ousted the strictly pro russian puppet regime

Who were elected by the Ukrainian people.

You know a pro Russian Ukrainian is still a Ukrainian citizen.

Hibernosaur

Hibernosaur wrote: »

This "handful" have tanks and guns, are trained and have killed, and in the not so distant future they will have EU Visa free travel.

Gatling wrote: »

No they don't .

???
Asov battalion (The clue is in the name) don't have tanks and guns?

http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/azov-battalion-conducts-a-military-training-outside-mariupol-378745.html

gandalf

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Russia annexed Crimea at the invitation of the Crimean government, and via referendum (albeit hasty) as the Ukrainian government had been ousted by a large mob. Organised cells of Far right activists made the ousting possible.

Ousted by an invasion of Russian Troops (Little Green Men) and the so-called referendum has been condemned as a travesty of democracy.

Hibernosaur

gandalf wrote: »

Ousted by an invasion of Russian Troops (Little Green Men) and the so-called referendum has been condemned as a travesty of democracy.

Yes Russian troops who were stationed in Crimea (and have been for hundreds of years), Russian Spetznaz at the invite of the Crimean government, The Berkut riot police who were absorbed into the Russian army when they fled to Crimea. There they became "Little Green men".

gandalf

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Yes Russian troops who were stationed in Crimea (and have been for hundreds of years), Russian Spetznaz at the invite of the Crimean government, The Berkut riot police were absorbed into the Russian army when they fled to Crimea. There they became "Little Green men".

Then explain their presence before any vote. It was sovereign Territory of the Ukraine. They were there illegally. They invaded another sovereign country. They only had authority to stay in the base that they leased from the Ukrainian Government.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

???
Asov battalion (The clue is in the name) don't have tanks and guns?

http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/azov-battalion-conducts-a-military-training-outside-mariupol-378745.html

That's an armoured truck maybe they plan on conquering the world with a few men ,
so this battalion which by all means 300-600 depending men who are Ukrainian who have taken up arms to defend there sovereign. Country from Russian aggressors .

Wonder if a conflict god forbid broke our here would you think the same if Republicans choose to fight.

Hibernosaur

Gatling wrote: »

That's an armoured truck maybe they plan on conquering the world with a few men ,
so this battalion which by all means 300-600 depending men who are Ukrainian who have taken up arms to defend there sovereign. Country from Russian aggressors .

Wonder if a conflict god forbid broke our here would you think the same if Republicans choose to fight.

Ah so these are good Neo-Nazis. Didn't realize that.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Ah so these are good Neo-Nazis. Didn't realize that.

There Ukrainians defending ukraine are they not,
Doesn't matter if there leaning left right center or upside down .
There defending their country

Hibernosaur

Gatling wrote: »

There Ukrainians defending ukraine are they not,
Doesn't matter if there leaning left right center or upside down .
There defending their country

The east Ukrainian rebels are Ukrainians defending Ukraine. Whats the difference? I will side with the ones without Swastikas and who don't idolize Nazi SS officers who sent children to gas chambers, thank you.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

They are armed, hateful thugs who have been waiting for this moment for years. when they could take up arms an kill Ruskis without impediment.

You are defending Murderers, painting them as patriot heroes. They are wearing Nazi Insignia, are openly anti Semitic and Racist, openly idolize historical Nazi SS Stepan Bandera who sent tens of thousands of polish women and Children to the Gas chambers. He is their hero, and you say they are defending Ukraine? Shame on you.


The east Ukrainian rebels are Ukrainians defending Ukraine. Whats the difference? I will side with the ones without Swastikas thank you.

So again they are Ukrainians defending there country from Russian aggressors ,
And now your saying the Russians in eastern Ukraine are defending ukraine

Hibernosaur

gandalf wrote: »

Then explain their presence before any vote. It was sovereign Territory of the Ukraine. They were there illegally. They invaded another sovereign country. They only had authority to stay in the base that they leased from the Ukrainian Government.

Again the Crimean government invited Russia to protect it from the imploding situation in Ukraine. The referendum came later.

BoJack Horseman

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Again the Crimean government invited Russia to protect it from the imploding situation in Ukraine.

Yeah..... The bots sell that line, no one buys it though, not for a second.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

There's far-right fascistic signals oozing out of that country. Not sure why you are so keenly myopic of it. Not only them but Russia too has it's own far-right elements. Not to say one day both couldn't be integrated into the EU but to do so now would be lunacy.

There are far right parties in most countries in Europe, most notably France and Finland. It's not a reason to ban these nations from EU membership and in actuality far right parties tend to be relatively benign.

Hibernosaur

Gatling wrote: »

So again they are Ukrainians defending there country from Russian aggressors ,
And now your saying the Russians in eastern Ukraine are defending ukraine

The East Ukrainian Russians are as Ukrainian as any west Ukrainian. They have a right to their nationality and citizenship. They are defending their part of Ukraine, the Donbass, with assistance from Russia, Serbian volunteers, Chechen volunteers and other pro Russian volunteers. They are Ukrainians in Ukraine fighting for their beliefs with international support. Much like the Ukrainian government and it's assortment of far right hooligan death squads.

Hibernosaur

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There are far right parties in most countries in Europe, most notably France and Finland. It's not a reason to ban these nations from EU membership and in actuality far right parties tend to be relatively benign.

These are militias, armed, trained, mobilized and have killed. more then just Armchair nazi sympathizers.

gandalf

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Again the Crimean government invited Russia to protect it from the imploding situation in Ukraine. The referendum came later.

They didn't have the authority to do that though. The only way Russia would have legitimately been allowed to put troops on Ukrainian soil was with the permission of the Ukrainian Government. THEY DID NOT HAVE THAT AUTHORISATION.

The issue at hand is not so called Nazi's in Kiev, it is with a foreign nation directly interfering with the territorial integrity of another sovereign nation. The problems in the Ukraine are for the Ukrainian people to sort out and were never open to Moscow sending the troops in.