Ukraines PM - "We still remember well the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany. "

Hibernosaur

gandalf wrote: »

They didn't have the authority to do that though. The only way Russia would have legitimately been allowed to put troops on Ukrainian soil was with the permission of the Ukrainian Government. THEY DID NOT HAVE THAT AUTHORISATION.

The issue at hand is not so called Nazi's in Kiev, it is with a foreign nation directly interfering with the territorial integrity of another sovereign nation. The problems in the Ukraine are for the Ukrainian people to sort out and were never open to Moscow sending the troops in.

The Ukrainian government that was overthrown?

Authority meant nothing. Russia was invited by the powers that be in Crimea in the midstd of the crises at hand. Authority had already fled to Russia in the form of Yankovitz.

It was as legal as ousting the elected government by force and burning riot police.

gandalf

Hibernosaur wrote: »

The Ukrainian government that was overthrown?

Authority meant nothing. Russia was invited by the powers that be in Crimea in the midstd of the crises at hand. Authority had already fled to Russia in the form of Yankovitz.

It was as legal as ousting the elected government by force and burning riot police.

No it wasn't. The President was impeached by the a majority of the members in the Parliament on the day after he fled the country like a coward. Viktor Yanukovych was no longer in a position of authority.

January 2015 Viktor Yanukovych was listed by Interpol as "wanted by the judicial authorities of Ukraine for prosecution / to serve a sentence" on charges of "misappropriation, embezzlement or conversion of property by malversation, if committed in respect of an especially gross amount, or by an organized group"

Hibernosaur

gandalf wrote: »

No it wasn't. The President was impeached by the a majority of the members in the Parliament on the day after he fled the country like a coward. Viktor Yanukovych was no longer in a position of authority.

So the riots and mobs taking over government building across the country, the politicians forced onto their knees on the streets by far right protesters and being made to humiliate themselves in front of baying crowds.

The 100's of thousands of people camped out in Maidan square, burning the place, attacking parliament, attacking police.

These had nothing to do with the Ukrainian president leaving office in fear?

Just because they didn't physically throw him out does not mean he wasn't ousted.


It's simple, The Ukrainian government, headed by the president, was forced to change many people by an angry, violent mob. The elected Ukrainian government was illegitimate after that point.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

with assistance from Russia, Serbian volunteers, Chechen volunteers and other pro Russian volunteers. They are Ukrainians in Ukraine fighting for their beliefs with international support. Much like the Ukrainian government and it's assortment of far right hooligan death squads.

Serbians in Ukraine wouldn't have been involved in massacres in the former yougoslavia surely couldn't be possible , who invited them into ukraine , was there backround checks do you know
Chechens volunteers also very well know for carrying out massacres on behalf of Russia, how many chechzia wars were there
Pro russians from Russia fighting in Ukraine against ukraine ,

And you have an issue with Ukrainians defending themselves against foreign aggressors surely this cannot be true or even sane logic

Hibernosaur

Gatling wrote: »

Serbians in Ukraine wouldn't have been involved is massacres in the former yougoslavia sure couldn't be possible , who invited them into ukraine ,
Chechens volunteers also very well know for carrying out massacres on behalf of Russia,
Pro russians from Russia fighting in Ukraine against ukraine ,

And you have an issue with Ukrainians defending themselves against foreign aggressors surely this cannot be true or even sane logic

I have a problem with armed and dangerous neo nazi militias. Full stop.

I have a problem with innocent civilians being shelled no matter who is doing the shelling.

I have a problem with the one sided world view that everything Russian must surely be evil and everything anti Russian, even armed neo nazis, are righteous and justified by their very action of opposing Russia.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

I have a problem with armed and dangerous neo nazi militias. Full stop.

I have a problem with innocent civilians being shelled no matter who is doing the shelling.

I have a problem with the one sided world view that everything Russian must surely be evil and everything anti Russian, even armed neo nazis, are righteous and justified by their very action of opposing Russia.

Whats about Serbs who could well have been involved in massacres in there own country and Chechens ,

But anything but Ukrainians defending ukraine from foreign aggressors.

Haven't heard or seen a single post calling out the Russians or pro russians ,
Or even the beloved BerKut unit from kiev who shot and killed 88 protesters demanding democracy in their own country , then high tailed it to Crimea to be become a special militia under kremlin control .

Not a word said such a shame

Hibernosaur

Gatling wrote: »

Serbians in Ukraine wouldn't have been involved in massacres in the former yougoslavia surely couldn't be possible , who invited them into ukraine , was there backround checks do you know
Chechens volunteers also very well know for carrying out massacres on behalf of Russia, how many chechzia wars were there
Pro russians from Russia fighting in Ukraine against ukraine ,

And you have an issue with Ukrainians defending themselves against foreign aggressors surely this cannot be true or even sane logic

Part of Ukraine is fighting with another part of Ukraine. Both sides receive outside help and support. Both sides contain evil scumbags. Both sides kill innocents either inadvertently or deliberately.

BoJack Horseman

Hibernosaur wrote: »

I have a problem with armed and dangerous neo nazi militias. Full stop.

Buala bos!

I have a problem with innocent civilians being shelled no matter who is doing the shelling.

Forgive me newbie if your not convincing us, if you were you'd be calling for Russian "holidaymakers" out of Ukraine.

I have a problem with the one sided world view that everything Russian must surely be evil and everything anti Russian, even armed neo nazis, are righteous and justified by their very action of opposing Russia.

Well.... what can you say.... You probably aren't going to change anyone's viewpoint (what with us all being Nazi lovers & all).
Don't like the world view? Tell the boss man he should try fixing his own nation & leave others alone..... that might help.

Hibernosaur

Gatling wrote: »

Whats about Serbs who could well have been involved in massacres in there own country and Chechens ,

But anything but Ukrainians defending ukraine from foreign aggressors.

Haven't heard or seen a single post calling out the Russians or pro russians ,
Or even the beloved BerKuth unit from kiev who shot and killed 88 protesters demanding democracy in their own country , then high tailed it to Crimea to be become a special militia under kremlin control .

Not a word said such a shame

Also scumbags. But the rebel side is condemned daily. Where is the condemnation of Kiev's actions, of the right wing militias firing upon their own countrymen and women.

gandalf

Hibernosaur wrote: »

So the riots and mobs taking over government building across the country, the politicians forced onto their knees on the streets by far right protesters and being made to humiliate themselves in front of baying crowds.

The 100's of thousands of people camped out in Maidan square, burning the place, attacking parliament, attacking police.

These had nothing to do with the Ukrainian president leaving office in fear?

Just because they didn't physically throw him out does not mean he wasn't ousted.


It's simple, The Ukrainian government, headed by the president, was forced to change many people by an angry, violent mob. The elected Ukrainian government was illegitimate after that point.

Again the majority of members of the Parliament who impeached Viktor Yanukovych the day after he fled were elected to that Parliament before the protests started. They were the legitimate authorities in the Ukraine at that moment. Not Vladimir Putin sitting in the Kremlin.

The Russians were not, they illegally occupied Ukrainian Territory and then illegally annexed it and are now involved in the invasion of more Ukrainian territory directly and by their proxies.

They are using the playbook written by the Nazi's 75 years ago to achieve their goals.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Also scumbags. But the rebel side is condemned daily. Where is the condemnation of Kiev's actions, of the right wing militias firing upon their own countrymen and women.

There firing on embedded foreign aggressors which you admit not that means anything to spend post after post going on about atoz battalion.

There is no logic to ranting about a right wing group but then saying it's fine for Serbs and Chechens and other russian militias to enter a sovereign nation and attack it's citizens while there under russian directed and russian military attacks

Hibernosaur

gandalf wrote: »

Again the majority of members of the Parliament who impeached Viktor Yanukovych the day after he fled were elected to that Parliament before the protests started. They were the legitimate authorities in the Ukraine.

The Russians were not, they illegally occupied Ukrainian Territory and then illegally annexed it and are now involved in the invasion of more Ukrainian territory directly and by their proxies.

They are using the playbook written by the Nazi's 75 years ago to achieve their goals.

You are just quoting the same tired rhetoric. "Green men" "nazi playbook". have you an opinion you didn't read somewhere else?

Have you ever actually set foot in Ukraine, in Crimea, in Russia. Do you know any people from there. Have you asked their opinion?


Russia wanted Crimea, and the Crimeans made several attempts to return to Russia before this crises. The legality is neither here nor there, it's what was wanted and its the way it is.

Russia does not want East Ukraine, if they did it would be Russian airforce, wham bam thank you Ukraine - war over in 3 weeks.

Have you ever, even for a second, opened your mind to the possibility that a large amount of Eastern Ukrainian people do not want to be ruled by the new Kiev government?

gandalf

Hibernosaur wrote: »

Also scumbags. But the rebel side is condemned daily. Where is the condemnation of Kiev's actions, of the right wing militias firing upon their own countrymen and women.

They are condemned daily because they are being directed by an external aggressive state who i tesaring up International Laws to suit their imperialistic pretensions. If they are left to continue their misadventure in the Ukraine to their conclusion then other nations in Europe will be at danger and the peace and stability of Europe will be in clear and present danger.

Thats why we are condemning the so called "rebels" because in essence at best they are a proxy army and at worst they are the Russian Armed forces.

Hibernosaur

Gatling wrote: »

There firing on embedded foreign aggressors which you admit not that means anything to spend post after post going on about atoz battalion.

There is no logic to ranting about a right wing group but then saying it's fine for Serbs and Chechens and other russian militias to enter a sovereign nation and attack it's citizens

The thread is about the far right in Ukraine. There for post after post about far right activity in Ukraine is to be expected. Read the OP.

Gatling

Hibernosaur wrote: »

The thread is about the far right in Ukraine. There for post after post about far right activity in Ukraine is to be expected. Read the OP.

Oh really

Hibernosaur

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Forgive me newbie if your not convincing us, if you were you'd be calling for Russian "holidaymakers" out of Ukraine.

I don't deny that Russia could end this tomorrow by pulling there support for the rebels. Kiev could also end this tomorrow by allowing the East to go it's own way.

I started this thread to talk about Ukraine's far right and the PM's pseudohistory.

It ended up the usual "green men" "Putin Bot" Shi'ite.

Bottom line is - the rebels and their supporters are not the only people who deserve international condemnation. The actions of Kiev and in particular it's use of neo nazi militias to achieve it's goals, are also equally deplorable and deserving of international attention and condemnation.

I'm out of this thread. respond to yourself if you wish.

gandalf

Hibernosaur wrote: »

You are just quoting the same tired rhetoric. "Green men" "nazi playbook". have you an opinion you didn't read somewhere else?

Pot calling the kettle black mate. All I see from you is the same old tired there are "Nazi's in Kiev" crud.

Have you ever actually set foot in Ukraine, in Crimea, in Russia. Do you know any people from there. Have you asked their opinion?

No never been in the Ukraine. Yes I have worked with Ukrainians and Russians. I am a European and I consider the Ukraine as a European country who should be allowed to make their own decisions without the fear of Invasion from their neighbours.

Russia wanted Crimea

Well that's fairly obvious and they took it like a playground bully.

and the Crimeans made several attempts to return to Russia before this crises. The legality is neither here nor there, it's what was wanted and its the way it is.

Sorry but that is bollix. The only way they could have ceeded to change to the Russian Federation is via a referendum across the whole of the Ukraine. It is illegal and that is the way it is.

Russia does not want East Ukraine, if they did it would be Russian airforce, wham bam thank you Ukraine - war over in 3 weeks.

And if they were stupid enough to do that they would be a pariah state for a long long time and they do not have the capacity for Cold War Mark 2.

Have you ever, even for a second, opened your mind to the possibility that a large amount of Eastern Ukrainian people do not want to be ruled by the new Kiev government?

Yes but does not legitimise a foreign nation invading the territory. As you have said they are Ukrainian citizens and as such it should be up to them and them alone to decide their future. Not Serbians, Not Chechans and Not Russians and certainly not the direct intervention of the Russian Federation Armed Forces.

poggyone

gandalf wrote: »

they are being directed by an external aggressive state who i tesaring up International Laws to suit their imperialistic pretensions. If they are left to continue their misadventure in the Ukraine to their conclusion then other nations in Europe will be at danger and the peace and stability of Europe will be in clear and present danger.

You are talking about the USA here?

poggyone

Gatling wrote: »

Right wing parties make up less than 4% of the political parties there hardly running the country now are they ,

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Show me one major neo nazi Ukrainian political party. Svoboda have 7 out of 450 seats in Parliament or 1.56% while Right Sector have 1 out of 450 seats or 0.22%.
.

Gatling wrote: »

Plenty of far right groups across Europe , some gaining in political strength , what's wrong with litteally another handful from Ukraine

Gatling wrote: »

There Ukrainians defending ukraine are they not,
Doesn't matter if there leaning left right center or upside down .
There defending their country

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

actuality far right parties tend to be relatively benign.

So 70 years ago Auschwitz Nazi concentration camp was liberated, and today we have here examples of Nazi sympathisers/apologists, so very sad and disgusting at the same time.
You can't be a bit pregnant, its all or nothing, like wise you cant be a bit of a Nazi.
Azov Battalion is under the Jurisdiction of the Ukraine Ministry of Internal Affairs, a government body.
Azov are Nazis so it stands to reason the Kiev government are as well.
Birds of a feather flock together, they are not the good guys some here believe them to be.

PopePalpatine

I'd recommend a look at www.stopfake.org/en/ .

Elmer Blooker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Show me one major neo nazi Ukrainian political party. Svoboda have 7 out of 450 seats in Parliament or 1.56% while Right Sector have 1 out of 450 seats or 0.22%.

How about Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk's People's Front Party and his "Military Council" consisting of extreme right wing para-militaries such as the Azov and Aidar Battalions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Front_(Ukraine)#Military_council

Iwasfrozen

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

How about Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk's People's Front Party and his "Military Council" consisting of extreme right wing para-militaries such as the Azov and Aidar Battalions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Front_(Ukraine)#Military_council

"Formed Sep 10 2014" so formed after the invasion of Ukraine. So hardly a justification for the invasion, more a reaction to it.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

"Formed Sep 10 2014" so formed after the invasion of Ukraine. So hardly a justification for the invasion, more a reaction to it.

So a right-wing neo nazi response is justified? We are talking about the actual Ukrainian military council, and these are the lads you want to shoe into NATO & EU?

Gatling

poggyone wrote: »

So 70 years ago Auschwitz Nazi concentration camp was liberated, and today we have here examples of Nazi sympathisers/apologists, so very sad and disgusting at the same time.
You can't be a bit pregnant, its all or nothing, like wise you cant be a bit of a Nazi.
Azov Battalion is under the Jurisdiction of the Ukraine Ministry of Internal Affairs, a government body.
Azov are Nazis so it stands to reason the Kiev government are as well.
Birds of a feather flock together, they are not the good guys some here believe them to be.

Ukrainians defending there country regardless of political leaning it's there god given right .

using Auschwitz is scraping the barrel as a means of oh look there back .

Kiev are Nazis sorry that's pure puntist ideology codology ,

Dannyboy83

poggyone wrote: »

So 70 years ago Auschwitz Nazi concentration camp was liberated, and today we have here examples of Nazi sympathisers/apologists, so very sad and disgusting at the same time.
You can't be a bit pregnant, its all or nothing, like wise you cant be a bit of a Nazi.
Azov Battalion is under the Jurisdiction of the Ukraine Ministry of Internal Affairs, a government body.
Azov are Nazis so it stands to reason the Kiev government are as well.
Birds of a feather flock together, they are not the good guys some here believe them to be.

This reminds me of the tweet by the Russian exile Pavel Durov, former head of vKontakte, who fled Russia after resisting Russian government pressure to release the data of Ukrainian protest leaders:

Pavel Durov wrote:

https://twitter.com/durov/status/200231477907169281

“67 years ago, Stalin defended from Hitler, his right to suppress Soviet people.”

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

So a right-wing neo nazi response is justified? We are talking about the actual Ukrainian military council, and these are the lads you want to shoe into NATO & EU?

It's not the actual military council.

I'm not saying the Ukrainians are perfect but they are the victims here.

Iwasfrozen

The Canadian delegation to NATO has very kindly made a map to help the poor Russian soldiers who keep getting lost in Ukrainian territory.



Source: https://twitter.com/CanadaNATO/status/504651534198927361/photo/1

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's not the actual military council.

I'm not saying the Ukrainians are perfect but they are the victims here.

My mistake, but what is not a mistake is this 'military council' is officially affiliated to the Prime minister of Ukraine. Like I said, these are the guys who you want in NATO and the EU. And you are certainly not wrong, they are a million miles from perfect. And you know what, if this is who Ukrainians want to elect thats all very well, thats a decision they are free to make but I don't want to jump into bed with them and I don't want them staying over at my house, you apparently do.

Elmer Blooker

The military council is a special body of People's Front. It develops proposals for strengthening of the defence system of Ukraine.

"A special body" I love it!
These "special bodies" exist because the regular army cannot be trusted, in other words the Regular army is not driven by racist ideology and hatred of the Russian population of eastern Ukraine and might refuse to open fire on civilians or even defect to the other side rather than die needlessly.
Reminds me of Saddam Hussein who kept an elite Republican Guard to hold on to power as he didn't trust the Iraqi army with a lot of Shias in it's ranks.
Hitler had his own "special body", the Brownshirts/SA and later the SS, his regular army were only cannon fodder to him.

The Canadian delegation to NATO has very kindly made a map to help the poor Russian soldiers who keep getting lost in Ukrainian territory.

You sure? I think that map might be for the benefit of 99% of North Americans who wouldn't be able to find Ukraine on a map!

gandalf

karma_ wrote: »

My mistake, but what is not a mistake is this 'military council' is officially affiliated to the Prime minister of Ukraine. Like I said, these are the guys who you want in NATO and the EU. And you are certainly not wrong, they are a million miles from perfect. And you know what, if this is who Ukrainians want to elect thats all very well, thats a decision they are free to make but I don't want to jump into bed with them and I don't want them staying over at my house, you apparently do.

TBH I don't give a rats ass who joins NATO as we aren't even a member. It should be that countries decision alone though and they shouldn't have to cow down to their neighbours if they disagree with them. Russias actions are certainly acting as a recruitment incentive for NATO though.

As for joining the EU, once Ukraine meets the entry conditions then yes they should be allowed the same opportunities that we have. However they are a long way away from being anywhere near that point.

Putting aside all the deflections that we see thrown out by the Putin apologists every day the nub of this whole crisis is whether a countrys borders can be violated with impunity by its larger neighbour. Personally I think not, obviously all the apologists believe that this is acceptable behaviour.

Without Russian intervention there would have been no crisis and the death toll would have counted in the hundreds. Thanks to Russian interference the death toll is in the thousands now and heading for the tens of thousands, the toll on the people of the Ukraine and the ordinary people of Russia has also been very high. Don't forget that hundreds of thousands of Russians are losing their jobs at the moment and that is partially due to the sanctions against them. How many lives is Putin prepared to throw under the wheels of his imperial train to obtain the new USSR?

karma_

gandalf wrote: »

TBH I don't give a rats ass who joins NATO as we aren't even a member. It should be that countries decision alone though and they shouldn't have to cow down to their neighbours if they disagree with them. Russias actions are certain acting as a recruitment incentive for NATO though.

As for joining the EU, once Ukraine meets the entry conditions then yes they should be allowed the same opportunities that we have. However they are a long way away from being anywhere near that point.

Putting aside all the deflections that we see thrown out by the Putin apologists every day the nub of this whole crisis is whether a countrys borders can be violated with impunity by its larger neighbour. Personally I think not, obviously all the apologists believe that this is acceptable behaviour.

Without Russian intervention there would have been no crisis and the death toll would have counted in the hundreds. Thanks to Russian interference the death toll is in the thousands now and heading for the tens of thousands, the toll on the people of the Ukraine and the ordinary people of Russia has also been very high. Don't forget that hundreds of thousands of Russians are losing their jobs at the moment and that is partially due to the sanctions against them. How many lives is Putin prepared to throw under the wheels of his imperial train to obtain the new USSR?

You might not give a rats arse, but others do. Let's say that Ukraine were fast tracked into NATO, and there really is a far right fascist body in Ukraine who come into power which isn't a stretch looking at developments and Ukrainian history, what would then happen if Ukraine and Russia had a border altercation? NATO would be obliged to help out and who knows what happens after that. absolutely not worth the risk.

All nations act in their own selfish self interests, how can we expect Russia to stop when they take their lead from the high ranking NATO countries who do exactly the same thing, either covertly or with direct military intervention? Personally I'm against all foreign military invention, anywhere.

Gatling

The so called far right represent a tiny minority of the Ukraine population ,
Why people keep harking on about there dangerous to the rest of us and europe it's literally scare mongering to the masses for something that's a non issue ,
How many countries in Europe have a far right population and have done for decades

karma_

Gatling wrote: »

The so called far right represent a tiny minority of the Ukraine population ,
Why people keep harking on about there dangerous to the rest of us and europe it's literally scare mongering to the masses for something that's a non issue ,
How many countries in Europe have a far right population and have done for decades

Oh, it's a non-issue? That's reassuring, thanks for clearing it up. I'll just move along now shall I?

Gatling

karma_ wrote: »

Oh, it's a non-issue? That's reassuring, thanks for clearing it up. I'll just move along now shall I?

Your claiming it's a major issue but haven't said how or why they should be stopped.

karma_

Gatling wrote: »

Your claiming it's a major issue but haven't said how or why they should be stopped.

What I said was, it could be an issue and why take that risk for it would be a huge risk to take. And it isn't really a non-issue when you see some of the folks tied to the Ukrainian PM.

Down the line, who knows but not now or anytime soon.

pablomakaveli

karma_ wrote: »

You might not give a rats arse, but others do. Let's say that Ukraine were fast tracked into NATO, and there really is a far right fascist body in Ukraine who come into power which isn't a stretch looking at developments and Ukrainian history, what would then happen if Ukraine and Russia had a border altercation? NATO would be obliged to help out and who knows what happens after that. absolutely not worth the risk.

All nations act in their own selfish self interests, how can we expect Russia to stop when they take their lead from the high ranking NATO countries who do exactly the same thing, either covertly or with direct military intervention? Personally I'm against all foreign military invention, anywhere.

The Baltic states are in NATO already and a border altercation there already a possibility. They realized they were at risk from Russia and did the smart thing to ensure Russia didn't do to them what it is now doing to the Ukraine. I don't blame Ukraine for wanting that same sense of security.

Gatling

karma_ wrote: »

What I said was, it could be an issue and why take that risk for it would be a huge risk to take. And it isn't really a non-issue when you see some of the folks tied to the Ukrainian PM.

Down the line, who knows but not now or anytime soon.

Hopefully we'll never see anything bad, France , Germany , Holland all have sizeable far right groups and politicians .
Unfortunately civilised and democratic societies every one has a right to be represented regardless if there left , right , center or everything in between

karma_

pablomakaveli wrote: »

The Baltic states are in NATO already and a border altercation there already a possibility. They realized they were at risk from Russia and did the smart thing to ensure Russia didn't do to them what it is now doing to the Ukraine. I don't blame Ukraine for wanting that same sense of security.

Yes, but I really don't foresee problems arising out of places like Estonia or Lithuania.

Gatling wrote: »

Hopefully we'll never see anything bad, France , Germany , Holland all have sizeable far right groups and politicians .
Unfortunately civilised and democratic societies every one has a right to be represented regardless if there left , right , center or everything in between

I agree, and yes those states have right wing parties, I don't think any have anyone as influential as a PM elected though? Please correct me if I'm wrong on that. And I don't disagree with you either about someone on the right voting for a party to represent them, by all means, vote for an out and out nazi if you desire, but that doesn't mean I want them in the club I'm in.

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

The so called far right represent a tiny minority of the Ukraine population ,
Why people keep harking on about there dangerous to the rest of us and europe it's literally scare mongering to the masses for something that's a non issue ,
How many countries in Europe have a far right population and have done for decades

This is true, far right extremism is on the rise throughout Europe, usually a reaction to immigration but Ukraine is different- a LOT different. Have a look at this picture of the Euromaidan coup HQ with Stefan Bandera's portrait outside, this is why there is anti-coup resistance in eastern Ukraine. Its quite disturbing that Germany (and the EU including Ireland) is supporting these neo-nazis, no wonder there's a media cover up/blackout/censorship and we are being told that the fighting in eastern Ukraine is solely because of "Russian aggression"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Headquarters_of_the_Euromaidan_revolution.jpg/1024px-Headquarters_of_the_Euromaidan_revolution.jpg

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

This is true, far right extremism is on the rise throughout Europe, usually a reaction to immigration but Ukraine is different- a LOT different. Have a look at this picture of the Euromaidan coup HQ with Stefan Bandera's portrait outside, this is why there is anti-coup resistance in eastern Ukraine. Its quite disturbing that Germany (and the EU including Ireland) is supporting these neo-nazis, no wonder there's a media cover up/blackout/censorship and we are being told that the fighting in eastern Ukraine is solely because of "Russian aggression"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Headquarters_of_the_Euromaidan_revolution.jpg/1024px-Headquarters_of_the_Euromaidan_revolution.jpg

So the Founder of Modern Ukraine portrait in front of a building after or during the removal of a corrupt pro russian puppet government,

One the the issues with Bandera personally I don't think was anti Semitic yes had involvement in killing Jewish people ,
But imo he was supremely pro Ukrainian he founded modern ukraine braking away away from both polish and russian control ,
He asssinated by the KGB in the end .

I think there is more to this subject than most people understand

Ozymandius2011

There were allegedly some Jews in the OUN aswell. Himmler's diaries said the OUN were prepared to help the Jews or kill them depending on what served their purpose. Bandera himself is much demonised in Russia as in the Soviet Union. In general, anyone who tried to break away from the Soviet Union was demonised as a "fascist". However in 1941-44 Bandera was actually in Sachsenhausen concentration camp as a prisoner and I read somewhere one of his brothers died in such a camp (though the latter may have been Auschwitz). Ukraine and Belarus suffered far more non-military casualties than Russia in WW2.

PopePalpatine

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

This is true, far right extremism is on the rise throughout Europe, usually a reaction to immigration but Ukraine is different- a LOT different. Have a look at this picture of the Euromaidan coup HQ with Stefan Bandera's portrait outside, this is why there is anti-coup resistance in eastern Ukraine. Its quite disturbing that Germany (and the EU including Ireland) is supporting these neo-nazis, no wonder there's a media cover up/blackout/censorship and we are being told that the fighting in eastern Ukraine is solely because of "Russian aggression"

Funnily enough, Putin's regime doesn't mind supporting the far-right when it suits them. Jobbik of Hungary and Ataka of Bulgaria have both praised Putin, and the leader of the former has denounced the USA as the "deformed offspring of Europe".

KingBrian2

gandalf wrote: »

TBH I don't give a rats ass who joins NATO as we aren't even a member. It should be that countries decision alone though and they shouldn't have to cow down to their neighbours if they disagree with them. Russias actions are certainly acting as a recruitment incentive for NATO though.

As for joining the EU, once Ukraine meets the entry conditions then yes they should be allowed the same opportunities that we have. However they are a long way away from being anywhere near that point.

Putting aside all the deflections that we see thrown out by the Putin apologists every day the nub of this whole crisis is whether a countrys borders can be violated with impunity by its larger neighbour. Personally I think not, obviously all the apologists believe that this is acceptable behaviour.

Without Russian intervention there would have been no crisis and the death toll would have counted in the hundreds. Thanks to Russian interference the death toll is in the thousands now and heading for the tens of thousands, the toll on the people of the Ukraine and the ordinary people of Russia has also been very high. Don't forget that hundreds of thousands of Russians are losing their jobs at the moment and that is partially due to the sanctions against them. How many lives is Putin prepared to throw under the wheels of his imperial train to obtain the new USSR?

Russia was only looking after its interest, Ukraine has a massive Russian speaking population and in case you do not know they don't very much trust the Kiev government. Moscow was not about to let Crimea fall under US, British, Polish, German and Ukrainian control. Russia's Black sea Battleship fleets are located in that area and they are capable of projecting power into the Mediterranean. The US should make its intentions abundantly clear instead of provoking warring sides to fight it out.

Elmer Blooker

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Funnily enough, Putin's regime doesn't mind supporting the far-right when it suits them. Jobbik of Hungary and Ataka of Bulgaria have both praised Putin, and the leader of the former has denounced the USA as the "deformed offspring of Europe".

I've heard of that stopfake site, its Kiev based and its aim is to spread Ukraine "government" propaganda. Fake is very appropriate.

Student Olga Yurkova came up with the idea for StopFake, which launched soon after in both Russian and English. Its primary targets: Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine, who receive a lot of their news from Russian television, and Western journalists.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I've heard of that stopfake site, its Kiev based and its aim is to spread Ukraine "government" propaganda. Fake is very appropriate.

As opposed to kremlin propaganda

Iwasfrozen

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I've heard of that stopfake site, its Kiev based and its aim is to spread Ukraine "government" propaganda. Fake is very appropriate.

Now you're just messing.

Ozymandius2011

One of the claims made by Stopfake.com - namely that a video from Kabardino Balkaria was shown on Russian TV as being from Ukraine - was admitted by Dmitry Kiselyov (Russia's media tsar).

Dannyboy83

With the fighting in eastern Ukraine approaching his country’s doorstep and Russia’s struggling economy weighing down his own, Lukashenko has begun an unprecedented tilt away from Moscow.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/30/russia-may-need-to-say-do-svidaniya-to-belarus/

Iwasfrozen

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

With the fighting in eastern Ukraine approaching his country’s doorstep and Russia’s struggling economy weighing down his own, Lukashenko has begun an unprecedented tilt away from Moscow.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/30/russia-may-need-to-say-do-svidaniya-to-belarus/

Good for him. Belarus could be a future NATO member after Ukraine is secured.

Dannyboy83

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Good for him. Belarus could be a future NATO member after Ukraine is secured.

The cynic in me says that he is looking for a payout along the lines Russia offered Yanukovych to turn down the EU.

But there have been too many genuine radical moves:
- threatening to leave the EEU
- de-russification of the school system & volte-face on the Belarussian language policy
- refusing to allow the Russians to open a Military base on Belarussian soil for fear of a repeat of the Crimean takeover
- the new military doctrine declaring that sending of armed groups, irregular forces, or mercenary groups who use arms against Belarus will trigger a declaration of war
- Russian attempts to gain control of Belarussian arms factories

Russian Allies:
Georgia
Ukraine
Belarus
Kazakstan

Meanwhile,

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/putin-nationalist-calls-austria-be-incorporated-into-russia-dominated-eurasian-empire-1485969
Alexander Dugin, has described his vision of a Russian lead 'Eurasian empire', incorporating Austria, as well as Hungary, Romania, Serbia and Slovakia.

Dugin, who has called for Russia to completely annex Ukraine and exterminate Ukrainians, made the comments in an interview with far-right Hungarian website alfahir.hu, and declares his belief in the necessity of a Eurasian empire to counteract the influence of the "nihilistic" West.