I Am the Master of My Fate

Dory Dory

zico10 wrote: »

Then on the other hand, I need some timeout from triathlon. It feels like I've been training constantly since I entered Ironman 70.3 in Phuket in 2012. Had I qualified for Hawaii this October, 2017 would have seen me take a complete step back from all sports.

I’m nowhere near as enthusiastic about training as I used to be and before I started logging here again in January, I seriously considered taking that step back this summer. It seems like a chore getting out of bed every morning to go for a swim. Perhaps if I just make a decision on a race this will change, but right now I’m honestly not sure where I am going with the training I am currently doing.

Fazz wrote: »

Zico - any thoughts about burn out?

That was perfectly timed.

As usual, you've got all the angles to your training/IM/Kona conundrums exposed, and the pros and cons well thought out. I find if I don't push too hard for an answer, it usually comes to me.

zico10

Dory Dory wrote: »

That was perfectly timed.

As usual, you've got all the angles to your training/IM/Kona conundrums exposed, and the pros and cons well thought out. I find if I don't push too hard for an answer, it usually comes to me.

There's no physical burnout. I'm sure of that. I accept lack of motivation can sometimes be a sign of burnout, but there are lots of people who haven't done anything physically exerting in years that obviously couldn't be burnt out, yet they lack motivation. Had I secured a Kona slot last September, I promise you I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever getting up for those early morning swims. When push comes to shove and any hard work is called for, I have been able to hit similar numbers to previous years. I'll decide on a race soon enough, with that I'll decide to be enthusiastic about training. It's as simple as that for me.

Fazz, you asked some interesting questions, my response will be a bit long winded and I'll reply later.

RJM85

I hear all the best people are doing Maastricht

MojoMaker

I did the half in Vichy last August if you want any info on the course. The heat was a real problem.

peter kern

i think there is a huge difference between burnout and lack of motivation.
95% of agers that say they dont have time to train proper would not train porper as they would not have the motivation to do so.

the lows are part of the game for every performance athlete and that is often the difference between the ones that never make it, the one hit wonders and the absolute top guys that stay on the top for long to find ways to motivate themselves during the difficult times that most athletes have every year.

the thing is if its a chore one has to find ways to make it more fun again.
there would be no issue at all for an ahtlete that has done a lot of training in the previous years to do less training ( swimming) and do that with more enjoyment ( and likely with an better outcome) .


ps many coaches would worry about your history during long swims in the irish sea and a cold day in the uk for an IM ...

zico10 wrote: »

There's no physical burnout. I'm sure of that. I accept lack of motivation can sometimes be a sign of burnout, but there are lots of people who haven't done anything physically exerting in years that obviously couldn't be burnt out, yet they lack motivation. Had I secured a Kona slot last September, I promise you I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever getting up for those early morning swims. When push comes to shove and any hard work is called for, I have been able to hit similar numbers to previous years. I'll decide on a race soon enough, with that I'll decide to be enthusiastic about training. It's as simple as that for me.

Fazz, you asked some interesting questions, my response will be a bit long winded and I'll reply later.

peter kern

heat is an advantage for zico ;-)

MojoMaker wrote: »

I did the half in Vichy last August if you want any info on the course. The heat was a real problem.

MojoMaker

Well the swim is toasty warm for sure. I felt like a lobster slowly boiling away in the lake

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

ps many coaches would worry about your history during long swims in the irish sea and a cold day in the uk for an IM ...

It's not something I've forgotten and it will definitely be a consideration in whether or not I chose Wales.

The arguments against this though; I recently asked Donncha O'Siadhail about whether he ever felt cold in the open water. He swims in togs and he doesn't carry much weight either. He said the cold only starts to affect him at distances of 5k and over.Just as a point of reference, he'd probably swim 5,000m in the same time it takes me to swim 3,800m. I've twice come out of the Irish Sea a shivering wreck, but neither were proper races. I wasn't working as hard as I would in an IM swim and I think this contributed to what happened to me. As you know, after 12 months of you advising me, I've increased my cadence. I expect my core temperature to be raised because of this. Compared to Donncha O'Siadhail swimming in togs, there's very little reason I suffered so badly in those two swims. I simply don't swim OW often enough. I'm hoping weekly dips in the Irish Sea will serve to acclimatise me to the temperature I'll have to deal with in Wales. If I enter IM Wales, that's what I'll do. The main reason I haven't swam OW as much as others here, is because it is nuisance. I can't say I have any great love for it either, but I'll get over that.

griffin100

'Cold water' swimming is, very much as you say, about acclimatisation. Last summer was the first time I ever swam skins and it took a few sessions before I felt comfortable getting straight in. By the end of the summer I was swimming skins in the Barrow in water that had kayakers shivering (but I am well insulated).

If you haven't seen Loneswimmers advice on cold water swimming it's worth a read - http://loneswimmer.com/cold-water-swimming-articles-index/

shotgunmcos

zico10 wrote: »

The main reason I haven't swam OW as much as others here, is because it is nuisance. I can't say I have any great love for it either, but I'll get over that.

Then why do tri?

Reminds me of a mate MOB who would stay swimming in the pool when we all went off OW swimming. Suited him fine for shorter tris but for 3.8k you just have to get out there if you don't want to be swimming a slower 4+k on the day.

zico10

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Then why do tri?

Because I'm a masochist.

Reminds me of a mate MOB who would stay swimming in the pool when we all went off OW swimming. Suited him fine for shorter tris but for 3.8k you just have to get out there if you don't want to be swimming a slower 4+k on the day.

Well if it's the same MOB I'm thinking of, then you must admit he didn't do too badly in tri despite this. He got to Kona and raced well over there. I'd be fairly happy if I finish in the sport being able to claim that.

zico10

Fazz wrote: »

Zico - any thoughts about burn out?

Burn out is obviously a very real risk and I have my own thoughts on whether certain people are genuinely burnt out or just a little bit lazy. I’m in no real position to pass comment on them though and it doesn’t matter one jot to my own performance, so I’m only addressing your questions as they apply to myself.

I’ll answer your final question first, yes I have found this approach does work for me. Then, I still haven’t qualified for Kona, so technically it hasn’t worked, but I am happy to persist with my approach. It gives me huge self belief knowing I have trained more than 90% of the people that take to the start-line of a race with me.

It’s another question if this mentality actually counts for anything, but my superior training hours must. I’m tired a lot of the time during blocks of training, but over the last two seasons, for the races that really mattered to me, Connemarathon 2014, IM Mallorca 2014, (to a lesser extent HOTW 2015) and IM Mallorca 2015, nerves aside, I felt fully refreshed and raring to go in all four of them. My tapers specifically targeted each race, I made sure to get enough sleep during the three or so weeks of my taper and I do think I will be able to repeat it.

I don’t honestly think I’m doing big hours. Compared to last year, I’m certainly not. That talk BMcC gave in Wheelworx made me question my approach. I haven’t reduced my training hours based on what he said, and I understand he has far more ability than either of us, but it was reassuring to know someone can do so well off what I would consider to be not a lot of hours. After hearing him speak, I felt I could afford to cut back on my training when I have to go to work and things wouldn’t completely go to pot if I failed to train three times a day now and again.

Two months ago, I picked Bohermeen as a ‘B’ goal. Dunboyne AC, whom I’ve started running with, had a generic plan targetting this race. I was in a bit of a slump and it was an easy decision to just follow their plan. I personally think the hard runs of Tuesday and Thursday are too close together, but it’s an approach to running I hadn’t tried before and I don’t think I had much to lose. Had I not joined Dunboyne AC, I might still be plodding around The Phoenix Park for hours on end at 5:00/km. I needed something to spice up my training and this was it.

I thought I’d be better prepped for the race on Sunday, but however it goes, once it’s out of the way, my focus will be fully switched back to triathlon. There’ll be a good few weeks of long, slow, steady stuff. I haven’t done much hard biking at all this year and I do look forward to this type of training when the weather improves. I won’t run with Dunboyne as much as I have been, and that will be one less hard run session a week. Training with them is a nice option to have though.

I’m not really sure what the ideal length of time for a ‘block’ of training is. I used to think 16-20 was optimum, but the longer I’ve been training, the shorter I think this block of training needs to be. Five months focussing on one particular leads to obsessiveness, I’ve been there and it’s a risky state of mind to be in going into a race. A well trained triathlete should be able to alter their training and turn out a good performance in a much shorter period of time. Just look at how well Owen Martin and Bryan McCrystal did at IM Arizona so soon after Kona and Barcelona respectively, for how it is possible. Ordinary AGs need to just start believing there is nothing particularly remarkable about what they did.

I imagine they both train hard year round. Stepping into the first week of a block of IM specific training, should not be a huge step up in difficulty, on what you had been doing in the final week of your build. There should be no great distinction between the two weeks in my mind. I don’t know how you could be ready to start a block of hard training if you haven’t had sprinklings of easy, steady and fast training throughout the year. That’s the thinking behind my current training anyway, which I’ll repeat I don’t believe is particularly hard or that it's going to burn me out.

As I explained to Dory, I don’t know when my IM race is going to be. I’m going to Mallorca just to cycle the course under less pressure than the previous two times I was there. It might not be as daunting as I remember and even if that’s all I get from my trip, it will be something. And if I make it to Wales over the Easter, and it’s a big ‘if’ at this stage, I’ll treat in similarly. My biggest problem right now, is I don’t know when I’ll be racing for a Kona ticket. I feel like I need to be ready to step into a block of IM tailored training at a moment’s notice. I’m a bit short on long bike rides and possibly even runs, but I hope my current training would allow me to easily take that step.

I don’t think the number of years I've been training hard is hugely relevant either. According to Peter Kern, Jan Frodeno has been training 40 hours a week for 20 years. And there are many top AGs who can sustain their effort and level of performance year after year, because they are sufficiently motivated. I don’t believe this happens solely because they are blessed with better genetics than the average Joe S

zico10

griffin100 wrote: »

If you haven't seen Loneswimmers advice on cold water swimming it's worth a read - http://loneswimmer.com/cold-water-swimming-articles-index/

Thanks for the tips. I was aware of Lone swimmer's website. There's a lot of interesting stuff on it and I check it out from time to time. I once recommended his very same articles on cold water swimming to someone else in fact.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85614165&postcount=3

Chartsengrafs

Strong result today, hope you're happy with it Zico.

zico10

Chartsengrafs wrote: »

Strong result today, hope you're happy with it Zico.

Thanks. There were guys ahead of me I thought I should have been closer to though, but I'm not all that unhappy. That's generally as good as it gets on this log.

Kurt_Godel

zico10 wrote: »

but I'm not all that unhappy. That's generally as good as it gets on this log.

I had a genuine belly laugh from this line, classic

Well done today, you're in a great place to be mid-March.

peter kern

Two months ago, I picked Bohermeen as a ‘B’ goal. Dunboyne AC, whom I’ve started running with, had a generic plan targetting this race. I was in a bit of a slump and it was an easy decision to just follow their plan. I personally think the hard runs of Tuesday and Thursday are too close together, but it’s an approach to running I hadn’t tried before and I don’t think I had much to lose. Had I not joined Dunboyne AC, I might still be plodding around The Phoenix Park for hours on end at 5:00/km. I needed something to spice up my training and this was it.


if you feel tue and thur is to close than this would confirm my thoughts that you often go to fast for those sessions .

a tri guy that is as fast as runner in the race should often be slower in training given the extra load from bike and swim ( that is of course over simplistic like my 20 year of 40 hours training comment of jan frodeno, as there is a myrad of other things to effect things )
you always try to keep up with them ( whic from time to time is also important )

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

if you feel tue and thur is to close than this would confirm my thoughts that you often go to fast for those sessions .

a tri guy that is as fast as runner in the race should often be slower in training given the extra load from bike and swim ( that is of course over simplistic like my 20 year of 40 hours training comment of jan frodeno, as there is a myrad of other things to effect things )
you always try to keep up with them ( whic from time to time is also important )

While there's an element of truth in what you say, your summarisation is a bit over simplistic as well. The sessions weren't meant to be easy and in truth, I just didn't back them up with enough running on other days of the week. I didn't want to, or indeed have to, totally neglect cycling as I did 2 years ago, but I fooled myself into believing the biking/swimming I was doing would suffice to make up for my lack of long runs.
This is sort of spoiling the epic race report I have in the pipeline, but more miles in my legs would not alone have stood me in better stead for the HM last Sunday, but also helped my body be better conditioned for the two midweek club sessions in Dunboyne. Both nights were just part of an overall weekly program, it's hardly the fault of the coach who drew up the plan, that I paid it so little regard to it for the other five days of the week. I knew myself from marathon training what I needed to do, I just didn't do it. Lessons learned though, and I won't make the same mistakes again.

On me trying to keep up with faster runners, I'm certainly guilty of that. It's that element of my nature though that motivates me to train for 20+ hours a week, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

I know nobody on boards can hope to emulate Jan Frodeno's training. I only mentioned him, to demonstrate that cumulative years of big training volumes don't necessarily need to lead to burnout. Also I take issue with your claim that he's twice as tough as anybody on boards. Firstly and lastly he's infinitely more talented than any triathlete there has ever been in Ireland. Mental toughness is not something you can quantify, and it's easy look tough when you're as good as Frodeno is. He didn't win the gold medal in Beijing because he was tougher than Gomez, his luck was just in that day. It's not just your claims vis-à-vis mental toughness I take issue with. Anytime I hear a sports commentator say a team or individual won because they 'wanted it more', I just roll my eyes. It's a handy cliche and more often than not just suits the mood of the audience.

zico10

Monday 7th March
a.m.
I took the morning off and spent an extra 90 minutes in bed.

p.m.
Swim
25m pool, coached session

400m building to finish on 80% RPE on final 100m
8*50m on 60’, every second 50m fast (42-43 seconds)
50m easy
16*25m on 40’, every 4th 25m fast (18 seconds avg.)
100m easy
4*100m on 2:00 w.6 seconds fast kicking per length (1:45 approximately)
2*100m on 3:00 (1:28 & 1:32{first 50m in 37 seconds})
50m easy

Totals: 1.0hrs – 2,875m


Tuesday 8th March
a.m.
Swim
NAC, 50m pool

400m warm up building to 80% PE
12*200m pull as three sets of 3*200m off 3:30 w. extra 60’ rest between sets (3:16 fastest, 3:25 slowest, 3:22 average)
200m easy

Totals: 1.0hrs – 3,000m

p.m.
Run
Club Session, Tempo run 5*6 minutes at half marathon pace

2.0km warm up,
Efforts;
1) 1.91km in 6:00, 3:09/km (clockwise)
2) 1.76km in 6:00, 3:25/km (anti-clockwise)
3) 1.83km in 5:59, 3:17/km (clockwise)
4) 1.76km in 6:03, 3:26/km (anti-clockwise)
5) 1.84km in 6:05, 3:19/km (clockwise)
Totals; 9.10km in 30:09, 3:19/km
1.2km recovery during the above efforts
2.5km cool down

I ran out with somebody, who is generally a faster runner than me, on the first effort. He was behind me tonight, but his presence caused me to run the first effort faster than I should have done. After this initial show of bravado, I hit upon far more consistent and realistic paces.
Totals: 1.0hrs – 14.80km


Wednesday 9th March
a.m.
Swim
NAC, 50m pool

16*50m off 65’, every 4th one @ 90% (47-48 seconds)
800m pull in 13:48, 1:43/100m
200m easy
4*100m off 1:55, descending 1-4 (1:48, 1:46, 1:42, 1:38)
Extra 60 seconds rest
4*100m off 1:55, descending 1-4 (1:50, 1:47, 1:43, 1:37)
100m easy

The target time for the 800m pull, in a 25m pool, was <13 minutes. I was instructed to start off at a controlled pace and build into it. I was trying to think of this advice throught the 800m, and I finished up not really sure whether I had done a good or bad job. I was happier with the descending 100s and it was reassuring that I was able to increase my speed when needed.
Totals: 1.0hrs – 3,200m

p.m.
Run
Treadmill

6km @ 11.6km/hr

Totals: 0.5hrs – 6.0km

S & C

30 minutes stretching, some pliates stuff & foam rolling

Totals: 0.5hrs – n/a


Thursday 10th March
a.m.
Swim
25m pool, coached session

200m warm up w. buoyancy shorts
4*50m as 12.5m fast/12.5m easy (42 seconds) w. buoyancy shorts
400m TT, (6:17, 100m splits; 1:30, 1:36, 1:36, 1:35)
400m paddles & pull buoy easy w. buoyancy shorts
300m fast w. buoyancy shorts w. buoyancy shorts
300m easy w. buoyancy shorts
400m TT, (6:38, 100m splits; 1:32, 1:42, 1:41, 1:43)
300m easy pull
100m max effort (1:27)
100m easy
25m all out (16 seconds, equals my pb)
25m easy

Three days out from a target race, I was hoping for an easy swim session this morning. In expectation of the coach thinking this was a good idea, I put buoyancy shorts on in the changing room, hoping I’d be able to leave them on all morning. We weren’t long into the 90 minute session, when Peter revealed we’d be doing a 400m TT, so I reluctantly took the shorts off. After the first TT, I put them back on, only to be told 20 minutes later, we were doing another TT. So they came off once more, even more reluctantly this time.
I was on my own in the lane and really did try my best to not go out too hard for the first 100m in each TT. I honestly put less effort into the initial 100m in both TTs and was surprised how much faster they turned out to be. As I was better oxygenated at the start of each TT, I didn’t have to breathe as much, as I did later on in the TTs. This would appear to be an obvious explantion as to why I slowed down as the 400 metres progressed. Maybe I need to improve my breathing, maybe I need to breathe more frequently in the first 4 lengths to stave off oxygen deprivation, or maybe I just need to learn to suffer and get through the 16 lengths without turning to breathe so often. Anyway my 400m PB of 6:15 still stands. Tthis was set with others in the lane, so this morning’s time is probably better. It’s always nice to see progress, but my goal of breaking 6 minutes looks like it will have to wait for another while yet.
Totals: 1.5hrs – 3,150m

p.m.
Run

3.0km warm up
Intervals; 8*400m @ 5k pace w. 3 minute break after 1st 4
1) Garmin not ready, I think coach said 1:19 (anti-clockwise)
2) 410m in 1:20, 3:16/km (anti-clockwise)
3) 420m in 1:18, 3:09/km (anti-clockwise)
4) 410m in 1:19, 3:12/km (anti-clockwise)
400m easy
5) 430m in 1:20, 3:09/km (clockwise)
6) 430m in 1:19, 3:06/km (clockwise)
7) 420m in 1:20, 3:11/km (clockwise)
8) 410m in 1:20, 3:14/km (clockwise)
Totals; 6.4km in 21:34, 3:24/km
2.72km recovery during above efforts
2.0km cool down

These were steady efforts. There were two faster runners on the track tonight and having them there helped me get my pacing right. I knew where I needed to be at all points on the track by the distance between us. The reps were short compared to previous Thursday nights, I walked the recoveries between the efforts and always felt well recovered by the time we started the next one. I never had to dig too deep and finished the session in a positive mood.
Total: 1.0hrs – 8.34km


Friday 11th March
a.m.
Nothing

p.m.
Swim
25m pool, cocahed session

I wore buoyancy shorts for the session tonight and used a pull buoy for a lot of the sets. I stayed at the back of the lane and took it easy throughout the hour. There were some occasions when I tried to hit fast times. 1:24 was my best for one particular 100. Although I had two floatation aids with the shorts and p.b., I was surprised to hit this time. I didn’t have to flog myself for it and managed it by just concentrating on a few simple things.
Totals: 1.0hrs – 2,800m


Saturday 12th March
Run

6km w. 6 x 100m strides

I volunteered to help out at a Parkrun in Porterstown today. I’ve only done one of their races to date, but I had no long training session planned, so it suited me to fulfil my obligations to Parkrun today rather than a later date. After the race was over, I did my own run in the same park.
Totals: 1.0hrs – 6.0km

S & C

30 minutes stretching, foam rolling, etc.

Totals: 0.5hrs – n/a


Sunday 13th March
Run
Race
Bohermeen Half Marathon

4km warm up
Race; 21.1km in 1:15:10, 3:34/km
2km cool down

(Report to follow)
Totals: 1.5hrs – 27.1km



Weekly Totals;
Swim: 5.5hrs – 13,650m
Bike: 0.0hrs – 0.00km
Run: 4.5hrs – 62.24km
Other: 1.0hrs

Dory Dory

You don't breathe every 2 when doing a 400TT??? If not, why? And what does Peter suggest?

zico10

Dory Dory wrote: »

You don't breathe every 2 when doing a 400TT??? If not, why? And what does Peter suggest?

I do, yeah. At least I end up breathing every 2 about halfway through. If I remember correctly, I think I started by taking one breath on the first length, maybe 2/3 on the second, until it progressed to breathing to my right every two strokes after about 200m. Saying that, I sometimes breathe to my left, as I feel I become unbalanced in the water solely breathing to one side.
I know I've given other people the advice to breathe often, rather than letting themselves go into oxygen deficit, but for a 400m TT, I thought a different approach was required. You don't think so?

Peter recommends breathing every 2 when going fast in races, but apart from that he doesn't pass comment on how often I breathe at his sessions and I haven't asked him. Is breathing not an individual thing? If you need air, you breathe, if you don't, you don't.

Dory Dory

zico10 wrote: »

I do, yeah. At least I end up breathing every 2 about halfway through. If I remember correctly, I think I started by taking one breath on the first length, maybe 2/3 on the second, until it progressed to breathing to my right every two strokes after about 200m. Saying that, I sometimes breathe to my left, as I feel I become unbalanced in the water solely breathing to one side.
I know I've given other people the advice to breathe often, rather than letting themselves go into oxygen deficit, but for a 400m TT, I thought a different approach was required. You don't think so?

Peter recommends breathing every 2 when going fast in races, but apart from that he doesn't pass comment on how often I breathe at his sessions and I haven't asked him. Is breathing not an individual thing? If you need air, you breathe, if you don't, you don't.

If I were your coach, I'd suggest you breathe every 2 in your 400 TTs (as well as your races) - and I'm talking breathing every 2 from the start. At the very least, I say try it at your next 400 TT for sh*ts and giggles. You've got nothing to lose but maybe a shiny new PB.

peter kern

I don't really believe in a singular 400 tt anyway And there was no tt ( I would announce that a before the session as I would do also a wetsuit test on tt days)
But there is many lazy swimmers that only go a bit faster when I write tt and we had discussed that during the session .

I would be suprised if Zico was to pb at his current motivation at swimming ... At the moment all he needs to do is hang in .



quote="Dory Dory;99119302"]If I were your coach, I'd suggest you breathe every 2 in your 400 TTs (as well as your races) - and I'm talking breathing every 2 from the start. At the very least, I say try it at your next 400 TT for sh*ts and giggles. You've got nothing to lose but maybe a shiny new PB. [/quote]

zico10

Well whatever might have been written on the board, Peter, I swam them as if they were TTs. This was especially true for the first one.

PS. And my 'motivation at swimming' is as questionable as it's always been.

pgibbo

Nice going in the half. :cool: No report? Not like you.

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

Well whatever might have been written on the board, Peter, I swam them as if they were TTs. This was especially true for the first one.

PS. And my 'motivation at swimming' is as questionable as it's always been.

so basically you did not want it enough.... ;-) ;-)
I did not see your head on the pool deck after it .
thats not a tt....

pgibbo

I was in the pool last week when a guy I know was doing a 400TT. He had the 1000yard stare after. He was spent. Certainly got me thinking.....He also swam a very tidy 5:19 for 400. :eek:

ray o

pgibbo wrote: »

I was in the pool last week when a guy I know was doing a 400TT. He had the 1000yard stare after. He was spent.

At least he didn't have to jump on a bike after it

Dory Dory

To bring our behind the scenes discussion about breathing back to your log...

....this popped in my email today - great timing! The relevant tidbit is the "specific unilateral breathing pattern" discussion that I thought was an interesting slant.

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Triathlon/News/Blogs/Multisport-Lab/2016/March/17/How-Breathing-Affects-Your-Swimming-Efficiency-and-Mechanics?utm_source=MZ&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=march2016

Kurt_Godel

" Precisely when your right arm reaches full extension is when you should begin your inhale. If you find that your right arm is already dropping or pushing down on the water as you begin your inhale, your timing is late."

Thanks for posting this Dory. I've been struggling with rotation and head position since moving to BE2, and this article has helped iron out a few wrinkles. Did three 100's earlier today:
BE3 in 1:44
BE2 in 1:40
BE2 inhale on entry 1:33

Effort was similar for all. Too early to proclaim a miracle but I'll be following this advice for the next while.