Who will really benifit from the RDP 2020

Username John

AP2014 wrote: »

Thanks, that's alot of practical days. I'm not sure of the cost of the course but I heard it is expensive. To be honest I only see it as a serious bureaucratic load of dung. It keeps teagasc and dinosaur ag colleges in business.

What do I get out of the course? In reality its dull and uninteresting it seems and won't improve anyones farming practices in a major way. Nothing you can't learn from a book as it's not rocket science.

The big selling point of the qualification is it allows you to apply for sfp top ups and grants. I reckon that says it all about these courses and the NEED to be a young qualified farmer. QUALIFIED to claim extra grants!

I dunno if I agree with all of that, from what I have heard, some of the Ag college courses are very good.

I have found as well, that most qualifications are just that - a qualification, a piece of paper that says you have passed some exam, done something. A qualification is not a guarantee you have the necessary knowledge. A lot of jobs will have a basic qualification required, if you don't have it, don't apply for the job. I guess the dept want the same to apply to farming.

I am not against the principle of it - that farmers should have some sort of qualification. But I found the course itself was poor. So I would think the course needs to be improved, not the requirement of a qualification done away with...
But, its easy for me to talk too, when I have the course done... :P

Nettleman

AP2014 wrote: »

Thanks, that's alot of practical days. I'm not sure of the cost of the course but I heard it is expensive. To be honest I only see it as a serious bureaucratic load of dung. It keeps teagasc and dinosaur ag colleges in business.

What do I get out of the course? In reality its dull and uninteresting it seems and won't improve anyones farming practices in a major way. Nothing you can't learn from a book as it's not rocket science.

The big selling point of the qualification is it allows you to apply for sfp top ups and grants. I reckon that says it all about these courses and the NEED to be a young qualified farmer. QUALIFIED to claim extra grants!

AP, with your results on grass based system you should be charging for giving courses;)

Farmer Pudsey

If you look at it angostically over last 20-50 years all young farmers schemes have been targeted at the bigger farmer. this is who they really suit. The reason being young Johnny or Mary leaves school and dose green cert. Then Dad or mam set them up on some of the land they have/are renting. J or M are now farmers in there own right. They get SFP from National Reserve and happy days. They can work part time at contracting work with Mam and Dads equipment or do agriculture haulage such as cattle or strw etc.

Tommy or Biddy cannot do this there father's farm can only half support a family. also dad works part time. In the eyes of the agri industry he is a hobby farmer. Now if they go and work down the line they will be hit with every trick possible to disbar them from drwing agri related state aid such as income limits. It hits PAYE workers more than self employed. And when they have the guts and gumpsion to manage to get back into farming and make a sucess of it they will be told it only because that they and there spouses have good jobs.

It about keeping access to the pot limited. By the way the RDP plan could change a lot before it is approved by Europe. The other thing is any that thinks that these 40&60% grants are not substancial think again. Prices will not increase by as much (if they do at all) as people think. The pot is small.The big envoirment scheme in the late noughties was 2 billion in funding and the time window was effectively about 15 months to build.

Neddyusa

amacca wrote: »

what about my exception?…..what do you think of that?……just asking.

(to my mind i was ****ed over in the past and now the criteria continue to do just that - why not if you were never in receipt of entitlements before... then shouldn't you be allowed in this time if you are trained and running a farm …just like the other farmers - + why should someone who has just started recently get all the benefits over someone who has had the bad timing to start around five years ago - the person that started 5 year ago has had to struggle with little or no help for five years …why can't they enter the system as a new entrant if the satisfy age and qualification criteria without the five previous years being subtracted leaving them with zip - do you know the rationale behind this? - is there some sort of scam they are trying to prevent or are they just trying to preserve as big a pot of cash as possible for those already in receipt)

You're bang-on there amacca. Seems you got the short straw twice for having a bit of get up and go and trying to get established as a productive farmer. It seems the government would actually like to discourage people like yourself or myself from entering farming.

I'd love to hear any rational explanation for cutting off access to YF scheme or National Reserve for young farmers who started out between 2008 - 2011 and missed out on the Installation Aid. I'm in that situation too, by being progressive and transferring the family farm at a relatively young age it seems we have been penalised. Why?

Its very frustrating to watch local "young farmers" (who have little or no interest in productive farming and only being put onto the herd number because extra grants are there) now eligible for around €50,000 from these schemes, and all the while, those of us who have put in a lot of work - with no grants - to develop our farms since starting out are excluded - just because of the year we got the herdnumber!

Why young trained farmers who started in those three years cannot be accommodated is baffling!

Shannonsurfer1

The National Reserve for 'YOUNG' farmers should change its name to 'NEW' farmers... There is level of distaste among young full and part-time farmers caught in the 'twilight years' ( commenced farming between 2008 and 2010 )... The 5 year buffer zone from 2015 is disgraceful and should include the previous 2 years...

Just a theory on why the magical 5 years where chosen as apposed to 7 years ( logical sense would dictate the extra 2 years would cover the gap where installation aid finished)

Who is in power now... Fianna Geal
Who was in power 2008- early 2011)... Fianna Fail...

The policy makers should just get rid of this 5 year buffer zone and put the money into a retirement scheme for those how would like to avail of it

paddysdream

Real "whinging farmer" sound from this thread.

People complaining about having to have a green cert,and auld lads not having one.
Agree that a green cert is just a useless bit of paper to show you served your time and turned up most days but isn't that just what degree is ?
Know lots of lads with degrees,masters etc and to be fair would be afraid to let them out on their own.

People complaining that ruling out someone with 40k gross(thats 800 a week,try making that from farming) off farm income from certain top ups is unfair.

People complaining that all schemes were and are targeted at "big" farmers when in truth its quiet the opposite.Acerage limits on top ups,reps ,aeos and national reserve show us this.All pillar 2 is only of relevance to smaller farmers.

Must be the unluckiest bunch ever who post on here as all seem to have fallen between 2 stools as regards each and every scheme .

Why can't Tommy or Biddy rent land like Johnny or Mary.Or even do the green cert instead of going to college and getting a job?
Income limits are there for a reason and if you can't see that then what can I say?
Hardly fair to have a young lad of 37 with 100k a year job taking over the fathers farm in name and getting a top up whilst the poor hoor down the road gets the same.

Oh and lads despite what the EU/Dept thinks ,lets face it;A man of 35 can hardly be called young now can he?At that age would expect any one with any go in them to be in complete control for at least 10 years.

Neddyusa

paddysdream wrote: »

Real "whinging farmer" sound from this thread.

People complaining about having to have a green cert,and auld lads not having one.
Agree that a green cert is just a useless bit of paper to show you served your time and turned up most days but isn't that just what degree is ?
Know lots of lads with degrees,masters etc and to be fair would be afraid to let them out on their own.

People complaining that ruling out someone with 40k gross(thats 800 a week,try making that from farming) off farm income from certain top ups is unfair.

People complaining that all schemes were and are targeted at "big" farmers when in truth its quiet the opposite.Acerage limits on top ups,reps ,aeos and national reserve show us this.All pillar 2 is only of relevance to smaller farmers.

Must be the unluckiest bunch ever who post on here as all seem to have fallen between 2 stools as regards each and every scheme .

Why can't Tommy or Biddy rent land like Johnny or Mary.Or even do the green cert instead of going to college and getting a job?
Income limits are there for a reason and if you can't see that then what can I say?
Hardly fair to have a young lad of 37 with 100k a year job taking over the fathers farm in name and getting a top up whilst the poor hoor down the road gets the same.

Oh and lads despite what the EU/Dept thinks ,lets face it;A man of 35 can hardly be called young now can he?At that age would expect any one with any go in them to be in complete control for at least 10 years.

Thats grand and well Paddy, I agree with you on the green cert requirements or the off-farm income thresholds or the age limits. In fairness I dont see anyone making a big deal of the age or off-farm income limits - the guys who brought those issues up understand the logic for including those restrictions in schemes.

But what you havent addressed is the question posed by the OP:
Why have farmers who are young, trained, have low off-farm income but who started farming in 2008-2010, receiving no installation aid....why have they been purposely discriminated against by excluding them from the current National Reserve scheme??

paddysdream

Neddyusa wrote: »

Thats grand and well Paddy, I agree with you on the green cert requirements or the off-farm income thresholds or the age limits. In fairness I dont see anyone making a big deal of the age or off-farm income limits - the guys who brought those issues up understand the logic for including those restrictions in schemes.

But what you havent addressed is the question posed by the OP:
Why have farmers who are young, trained, have low off-farm income but who started farming in 2008-2010, receiving no installation aid....why have they been purposely discriminated against by excluding them from the current National Reserve scheme??

How many are there and of those how many took over farms without any or very little SFP?

In the big scheme of things they are a miniscule minority.Not saying they shouldn't be catered for but sometimes people fall between the cracks.

Anyways someone with off farm income, low or not, shouldn't be considered first in line for what is a farming support.
Should those totally dependent on agriculture not be first in line?

Don't think they,or others with complaints are ,despite what they might think,being purposely discriminated against.Sometimes when a large and complicated scheme like the new Cap is being drawn up its almost impossible to cater for every possible scenario without over complicating things or leaving other loopholes.

Again can anyone tell me how many GENUINE herd numbers were activated or herd numbers GENUINELY transferred during those 3 years by people who are earning the vast bulk of their income from agriculture and doing so with even less than average SFP or none at all.
To answer my own question I would say less than 200.Anyone care to guess or where could we even find that figure ?

amacca

Neddyusa wrote: »

But what you havent addressed is the question posed by the OP:
Why have farmers who are young, trained, have low off-farm income but who started farming in 2008-2010, receiving no installation aid....why have they been purposely discriminated against by excluding them from the current National Reserve scheme??

That question seems to have been assiduously avoided all right!

paddysdream

amacca wrote: »

That question seems to have been assiduously avoided all right!

Don't think they have been PURPOSELY excluded from anything.They just happen to unfortunately have started farming in the wrong 3 years.
I was unfortunate to take over a farm during the worst years for agriculture which in retrospect was madness but there you go.Thats life.


To be honest how many of them are out there?And of those how many are totally dependent on agriculture and without even an average SFP?

If there is as few as I suspect then they will get something when all the other "deserving" cases are looked after.Some seem to see a big conspiracy etc here.

Really what I am saying is that its a case of accepting the reality of the situation and getting on with it.Someone earlier complained they had too much income,then too little or too much stock etc etc for installation aid.In those cases if you wanted the installation aid etc would it not have been better to comply(fiddle) the numbers etc and get it and then farm away ?

We as farmers (think Irish people in general)seem to want both someone to point the finger of blame at for whatever perceived problems we have and also someone to come along and make things better.

Neddyusa

paddysdream wrote: »

Don't think they have been PURPOSELY excluded from anything.They just happen to unfortunately have started farming in the wrong 3 years.
I was unfortunate to take over a farm during the worst years for agriculture which in retrospect was madness but there you go.Thats life.


To be honest how many of them are out there?And of those how many are totally dependent on agriculture and without even an average SFP?

If there is as few as I suspect then they will get something when all the other "deserving" cases are looked after.Some seem to see a big conspiracy etc here.

I would say it is a pretty small number of farmers, likely in the hundreds alright. Which is what makes it more bizzare that they should be excluded, the cost of including them couldn't have been large.

It does seem very strange as the OP stated to have limited it to 2011-onwards new-farmers rather than 2009-onwards new-farmers, which would have included those not covered by the previous succession scheme (early retirement and installation aid).

rangler1

amacca wrote: »

That question seems to have been assiduously avoided all right!

Unless there's someone from government or high up in the department on here, who's to answer it.........they'd be very foolish to declare themselves, see on the Sindo the way keyboard cowards bullied nicki mc faddens sister

Shannonsurfer1

Hi Paddy, as a full time farmer myself (27), we have to accept the fact that the SFP is an important source of funding for any farming enterprise... Not only have I taken a cut to fund the national reserve, I am ineligible in the eyes of the department of agriculture as a 'YOUNG' farmer, thus exclude from the 25% increase in funding.... Ironic considering a farmer aged 39 who commenced farming in 2010 is eligible and a 21,22 year old etc who started in 09 isn't.....

You say the group of us just like some fellow posters are in the miniscule minority, ill try some maths here...

Quote from the Teagace website

"Teagasc has received approximately 1,500 applications for its part time and distance education Green Cert programmes. This is about three times the normal level of applications for a given year and represents an exceptional level of educational demand"

So the average per year pre 2015 was 500, for argument sake we will say they have herd numbers
Universitys and I.T's, 200 per year graduate with herd numbers...
Total per year who would quality 700 ppl

Qualifying years 2010 to 2015... 700x5 = 3500
Non Qualifying years 2008 to2010... 700x2 =1400

3500/1400 x 100/1 = anybody... 40%.... there's nothing small about that...

Iv a friend currently evolved in the Distance education course (one of the 1500ppl stated on the teagase website), out of the class of 50, 7 including himself have herd numbers and work full time farming...

Feels like a lot of ppl cashing in on the gravy train, while the ppl who require the funding the most get kicked to the curb...

Have a fair system or no system...

paddysdream

Shannonsurfer1 wrote: »

Hi Paddy, as a full time farmer myself (27), we have to accept the fact that the SFP is an important source of funding for any farming enterprise... Not only have I taken a cut to fund the national reserve, I am ineligible in the eyes of the department of agriculture as a 'YOUNG' farmer, thus exclude from the 25% increase in funding.... Ironic considering a farmer aged 39 who commenced farming in 2010 is eligible and a 21,22 year old etc who started in 09 isn't.....

You say the group of us just like some fellow posters are in the miniscule minority, ill try some maths here...

Quote from the Teagace website

"Teagasc has received approximately 1,500 applications for its part time and distance education Green Cert programmes. This is about three times the normal level of applications for a given year and represents an exceptional level of educational demand"

So the average per year pre 2015 was 500, for argument sake we will say they have herd numbers
Universitys and I.T's, 200 per year graduate with herd numbers...
Total per year who would quality 700 ppl

Qualifying years 2010 to 2015... 700x5 = 3500
Non Qualifying years 2008 to2010... 700x2 =1400

3500/1400 x 100/1 = anybody... 40%.... there's nothing small about that...

Iv a friend currently evolved in the Distance education course (one of the 1500ppl stated on the teagase website), out of the class of 50, 7 including himself have herd numbers and work full time farming...

Feels like a lot of ppl cashing in on the gravy train, while the ppl who require the funding the most get kicked to the curb...

Have a fair system or no system...

Don't quiet follow your maths !!

If you say 700 per year do ag. education then ok.But how many of these actually farm?As in actually run the farm in their own name.
Plus how many of those are going back to farms with above average payments?

Reality is that many people do green cert. after leaving school just to ensure no difficulties in years to come re. transfer etc.Many of these won't farm for years and in some cases never.
Most people doing ag. degrees will prob. never farm.

To be honest unless they either come from a substantial enterprise(mainly dairy) or their parent(s) are ready to retire then they won't be actually taking over or even relying on the farm for an income for many years.

Thinking behind the 5 years I would imagine is that they believe after 5 years farming you should be at least partially on the road to being set up.

Shannonsurfer1

Sorry, but I wouldn't be of the same opinion that the current explosion for places in the distance education is merely as " to ensure no difficulties in years to come re. transfer etc."... Fact - the course demand increased 3 fold compared to previous years... I believe its in relation to the announcement over a year ago, that the national reserve and young farmers scheme would commence in 2015...

Yes paddy your right, only a hand full will farm fulltime... but there is no correct financial stimulus to encourage it.... All I see form other threads on the farming section, is how to sign over the land, claim the benefits so the aul lad can tip away while I work full time...

Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers there...

AP2014

Shannonsurfer1 wrote: »

Sorry, but I wouldn't be of the same opinion that the current explosion for places in the distance education is merely as " to ensure no difficulties in years to come re. transfer etc."... Fact - the course demand increased 3 fold compared to previous years... I believe its in relation to the announcement over a year ago, that the national reserve and young farmers scheme would commence in 2015...

Yes paddy your right, only a hand full will farm fulltime... but there is no correct financial stimulus to encourage it.... All I see form other threads on the farming section, is how to sign over the land, claim the benefits so the aul lad can tip away while I work full time...

Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers there...

Totally right, it's the public's opinion as well that farming is about claiming grants not much else. Generally alot of threads here are about sfp, tax avoidance or sorry reducing tax bill, signing over land, safety grants, shed grants, tank grants etc.

Sad but guess its the way it is.

ihatewinter

The Department are great for putting restrictions in place. The right thing to do would be to look at each farmer on a case by case system. See how progressive the farm is, handling and shed facilities and stocking rate. Then at each farmer, how long they have been farming, income from farming etc

Basically farmers with the most potential to be successful and work hard should be rewarded.

I know of one family here, they are exempt because of income level. Both father and son on herd number. Only started farming in 2013. Income of 45,000 but because it is a joint herd number it rues them out. The son has a green cert and works part-time. It's a hill farm with few entitlements, that was left to them from his father. They must have 300 ewes, refenced all the boundaries and did a good bit on sheds. But unfortunately they are ruled out.

AP2014

ihatewinter wrote: »

The Department are great for putting restrictions in place. The right thing to do would be to look at each farmer on a case by case system. See how progressive the farm is, handling and shed facilities and stocking rate. Then at each farmer, how long they have been farming, income from farming etc

Basically farmers with the most potential to be successful and work hard should be rewarded.

I know of one family here, they are exempt because of income level. Both father and son on herd number. Only started farming in 2013. Income of 45,000 but because it is a joint herd number it rues them out. The son has a green cert and works part-time. It's a hill farm with few entitlements, that was left to them from his father. They must have 300 ewes, refenced all the boundaries and did a good bit on sheds. But unfortunately they are ruled out.

Not sure if it would work on an individual case by case basis. Too much admin work not practical. Shocking on that family. If you have a farm and herd no you should be entitled to aid just like anyone else if you farm.

paddysdream

Shannonsurfer1 wrote: »

Sorry, but I wouldn't be of the same opinion that the current explosion for places in the distance education is merely as " to ensure no difficulties in years to come re. transfer etc."... Fact - the course demand increased 3 fold compared to previous years... I believe its in relation to the announcement over a year ago, that the national reserve and young farmers scheme would commence in 2015...

Yes paddy your right, only a hand full will farm fulltime... but there is no correct financial stimulus to encourage it.... All I see form other threads on the farming section, is how to sign over the land, claim the benefits so the aul lad can tip away while I work full time...

Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers there...

But doing the green cert(or whatever its called nowadays) just to try and qualify for national reserve/young farmer top up is no different than doing it to ensure a less costly farm transfer in years to come.
Its basically a box ticking exercise.

My belief is that all those supports should be targeted in the first instance at those whose farm is viable to support them as full time farmers.
Whats the point of topping up someone under a young farmer scheme when the young farmer in question is working full time off the farm and in many instances its the supposedly retired father who is herding/feeding etc.

Someone in full time employment is prob. better able to afford to invest in their farm and use it to offset paye income.No real pressure to make it a paying proposition from day 1.Nothing wrong with this and more luck to them.

Thats why I believe the 5 year rule/income limit/age rule etc are there.Once again nothing wrong to come to farming at 40 or with a good off farm income but to believe those and others who are farming in the own right for 5 to 10 years are as deserving of support as someone taking over a farm and deciding to make it a means of supporting themselves and maybe a family is in my view wrong.

Maybe I am biased from circumstances and to be honest have no concept from a personal point of view of either having worked full time off farm or of having any problems with having full control of all farm activities (for better or worse) since I started.

Hands up;have a green cert(Ag. college).got installation aid,"reasonable" SFP decent farm that will at a push support a family,part time laying hen and love farming (know nothing else!)

paddysdream

ihatewinter wrote: »

The Department are great for putting restrictions in place. The right thing to do would be to look at each farmer on a case by case system. See how progressive the farm is, handling and shed facilities and stocking rate. Then at each farmer, how long they have been farming, income from farming etc

Basically farmers with the most potential to be successful and work hard should be rewarded.

I know of one family here, they are exempt because of income level. Both father and son on herd number. Only started farming in 2013. Income of 45,000 but because it is a joint herd number it rues them out. The son has a green cert and works part-time. It's a hill farm with few entitlements, that was left to them from his father. They must have 300 ewes, refenced all the boundaries and did a good bit on sheds. But unfortunately they are ruled out.

Very very hard to do that(farm by farm basis)System would be wide open to abuse,complaints of favouritism or personal dislike plus very subjective.

One man's progressive farmer might be another man's dreamer with a great farm and facilities but a financial mess.
Many lads tipping away handily(know a few) would look a disaster from a grass measuring/paper production point of view but could support a family and live comfortably.

Hard learned lesson; hard work is trumped by working the head.

ellewood

paddysdream wrote: »

Very very hard to do that(farm by farm basis)System would be wide open to abuse,complaints of favouritism or personal dislike plus very subjective.

One man's progressive farmer might be another man's dreamer with a great farm and facilities but a financial mess.
Many lads tipping away handily(know a few) would look a disaster from a grass measuring/paper production point of view but could support a family and live comfortably.

Hard learned lesson; hard work is trumped by working the head.

Ya wont learn that with a green cert or any other color cert for that matter it comes with experience and age, but its exactly the opposite farming needs - young enthusiastic, nothing's a problem hard working ya wont get too many with out incentive tho..

I think its a bit too simple tho to say work the head, back in 2008 I had worked the head the incentive were there when I signed leases etc but with the stroke of a pen the govt 'suspended' a scheme which was supposed to be govt backed and now with this new scheme that is all forgotten about - it would piss off the most calm of lads.

I remember the morning it was on the front of the journal the news that is was suspended all of a sudden I was on my way to buy a new machine in a dealers I said im in now I have to keep going and I bought anyway maybe because I was green or maybe it was because I was starting into something Ive always wanted to do and short of an earthquake swallowing the whole place up I was intent on starting.

I remember making up a few years after that what I had givin the government in Vat and tax and what I had spent in the local area for goods and services on the farm to get it up and running and it was a fairly tidy sum.. The silly thing is if I had have got install/grants I would have spent it and more on stuff that would have sent the money back into the local economy any and the govt would have got a fair chunk of it back in Vat and tax as well.

+ the fact that it was I think 60% paid for by europe so this is EU money that could have ended up in the irish economy but went elsewhere.

You should see what France does to entice young blood into farming over there.

paddysdream

ellewood wrote: »

Ya wont learn that with a green cert or any other color cert for that matter it comes with experience and age, but its exactly the opposite farming needs - young enthusiastic, nothing's a problem hard working ya wont get too many with out incentive tho..

I think its a bit too simple tho to say work the head, back in 2008 I had worked the head the incentive were there when I signed leases etc but with the stroke of a pen the govt 'suspended' a scheme which was supposed to be govt backed and now with this new scheme that is all forgotten about - it would piss off the most calm of lads.

I remember the morning it was on the front of the journal the news that is was suspended all of a sudden I was on my way to buy a new machine in a dealers I said im in now I have to keep going and I bought anyway maybe because I was green or maybe it was because I was starting into something Ive always wanted to do and short of an earthquake swallowing the whole place up I was intent on starting.

I remember making up a few years after that what I had givin the government in Vat and tax and what I had spent in the local area for goods and services on the farm to get it up and running and it was a fairly tidy sum.. The silly thing is if I had have got install/grants I would have spent it and more on stuff that would have sent the money back into the local economy any and the govt would have got a fair chunk of it back in Vat and tax as well.

+ the fact that it was I think 60% paid for by europe so this is EU money that could have ended up in the irish economy but went elsewhere.

You should see what France does to entice young blood into farming over there.

Can I ask you what scheme that was?

ellewood

paddysdream wrote: »

Can I ask you what scheme that was?

The E15K installation aid

amacca

paddysdream wrote: »

Thinking behind the 5 years I would imagine is that they believe after 5 years farming you should be at least partially on the road to being set up.

By that logic

Then reduce substantially the supports to anyone thats actually been in receipt of sfp over five years…sure they should be well set up

Pull it totally away from those that have been in receipt even longer…they're long set up.

No wait, that wouldn't be fair……….or at least no fairer than denying entry into the system for those that have had the misfortune of bad timing

paddysdream

amacca wrote: »

By that logic

Then reduce substantially the supports to anyone thats actually been in receipt of sfp over five years…sure they should be well set up

Pull it totally away from those that have been in receipt even longer…they're long set up.

No wait, that wouldn't be fair……….or at least no fairer than denying entry into the system for those that have had the misfortune of bad timing

What is being discussed is the top up for new enternts,not the whole SFP regime.
The idea of CAP regime is to my mind twofold.Both a compensation to us to produce food at cost or below to ensure european food security and as a social payment to rural communities and to compensate for envoirnmental and welfare restrictions endured by european farmers.
Top ups/national reserve is totally different idea.

If everyone thats been receiving SFP for more than 5 years is reduced substantially then who should get it?

Reading some of the posts on here you might think only a tiny minority of farmers actually get SFP etc and the vast majority are excluded due to a complicated and convoluted conspiracy between the Dept,the EU,the IFA,Cuban exiles in Miami and the Mafia.

Still asking and waiting for an answer as to how many of the old young farmers exist and of those how many are farming full time with less than average(250 approx per hectare) payments?
Those I would consider hard done by but not someone working full time off farm whilst ok missing out on both installation aid and young farmer top up but with maybe 10k in SFP inherited from the auld lad.

ellewood

paddysdream wrote: »

What is being discussed is the top up for new enternts,not the whole SFP regime.
The idea of CAP regime is to my mind twofold.Both a compensation to us to produce food at cost or below to ensure european food security and as a social payment to rural communities and to compensate for envoirnmental and welfare restrictions endured by european farmers.
Top ups/national reserve is totally different idea.

If everyone thats been receiving SFP for more than 5 years is reduced substantially then who should get it?

Reading some of the posts on here you might think only a tiny minority of farmers actually get SFP etc and the vast majority are excluded due to a complicated and convoluted conspiracy between the Dept,the EU,the IFA,Cuban exiles in Miami and the Mafia.

Still asking and waiting for an answer as to how many of the old young farmers exist and of those how many are farming full time with less than average(250 approx per hectare) payments?
Those I would consider hard done by but not someone working full time off farm whilst ok missing out on both installation aid and young farmer top up but with maybe 10k in SFP inherited from the auld lad.

Whats working full time outside of farming got to do with it?
If you work full time farming as well..
If you are under the income tresh hold youre under it.
If only id of having an ould lad to inherit the E10K/year off id have been laughing:D

amacca

paddysdream wrote: »

Still asking and waiting for an answer as to how many of the old young farmers exist and of those how many are farming full time with less than average(250 approx per hectare) payments?

I just don't know the answer to that one….I only know my own situation

paddysdream wrote: »

Those I would consider hard done by but not someone working full time off farm whilst ok missing out on both installation aid and young farmer top up but with maybe 10k in SFP inherited from the auld lad.

What if you inherited no sfp/entitlements from the auld lad because he availed of farming retirement deal and thus wasn't farming during the reference years but probably won't get in because you started over five years ago with no help whatsoever…….its hard to just accept it and get on with because there will always be exceptions but sure most people are doing all right so stop whinging which is the main message that I'm hearing.

paddysdream

ellewood wrote: »

Whats working full time outside of farming got to do with it?
If you work full time farming as well..
If you are under the income tresh hold youre under it.
If only id of having an ould lad to inherit the E10K/year off id have been laughing:D

I would consider someone who has a full time off farm job which supplies the vast majority of their income as less deserving of the top up than someone who is farming full time and relying on it for their livliehood.
How can you work full time off farm and work full time at farming?


Thats my honest opinion and nobody yet has come up with anything to change my mind so far.

paddysdream

amacca wrote: »

I just don't know the answer to that one….I only know my own situation



What if you inherited no sfp/entitlements from the auld lad because he availed of farming retirement deal and thus wasn't farming during the reference years but probably won't get in because you started over five years ago with no help whatsoever…….its hard to just accept it and get on with because there will always be exceptions but sure most people are doing all right so stop whinging which is the main message that I'm hearing.

But what about all those lads who missed out on the retirement scheme esp. now that there will be no new one under the post 2015 CAP?

Your father took a chance,got his pension but missed out on the reference years.Thats nobody's fault really,just the luck of the draw
Many more missed the retirement scheme or got reduced years due to age factors or the misfortune of not having a much younger wife who they were farming jointly with.
All those things happen and its swings and roundabouts.In the late 1990s nobody could foretell that hanging on and drawing subs on stock that was just about paying would be a better long term prospect than taking what looked(and was) an excellent retirement pension plus leasing .

ihatewinter

paddysdream wrote: »

I would consider someone who has a full time off farm job which supplies the vast majority of their income as less deserving of the top up than someone who is farming full time and relying on it for their livliehood.
How can you work full time off farm and work full time at farming?

Exactly someone with a high paying job should not have entitlements.

paddysdream

ihatewinter wrote: »

Exactly someone with a high paying job should not have entitlements.

Disagree with that.Its a free(ish) country
Just the fact that those with a full time farm career should have first dibs on top ups compared to those with substantial off farm income.

Farmer Pudsey

paddysdream wrote: »

I would consider someone who has a full time off farm job which supplies the vast majority of their income as less deserving of the top up than someone who is farming full time and relying on it for their livliehood.
How can you work full time off farm and work full time at farming?


Thats my honest opinion and nobody yet has come up with anything to change my mind so far.

The disadvantage with this is it limits the ability of any PAYE worker in particular from going full time farming. There is no other Industry where there is an income limit put on Grant aid. Most people that move from PAYE to business have to factor in 2-3 years of low to mid income. To overcome that most that do this often work long hours to do this. this is not unique to agriculture.

Income limits can be manuipulated by all self employed with PAYE this is not an option. As well the cut off is sudden 1 euro less you are in 1 euro more you are out. I abhor income limits and means testing as I see them as a crude instrument that effects those that work within the PAYE system more than any other sector.

A 40 K limit which seems quit high is equivlent to 587/week after tax not in the super wealthy league. Such a PAYE worker could have travel expenses of 100/week. The cost of going to work is quitely on average at least that. So you are talking about a PAYE worker that may have access to less than 500/week.

Yet a farmer that may have a substancial contracting or cattle haulage business is not limited by this and a sole trader can maniluplate his income for a year to qualify even thought he may be infinately better off.

paddysdream

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The disadvantage with this is it limits the ability of any PAYE worker in particular from going full time farming. There is no other Industry where there is an income limit put on Grant aid. Most people that move from PAYE to business have to factor in 2-3 years of low to mid income. To overcome that most that do this often work long hours to do this. this is not unique to agriculture.

Income limits can be manuipulated by all self employed with PAYE this is not an option. As well the cut off is sudden 1 euro less you are in 1 euro more you are out. I abhor income limits and means testing as I see them as a crude instrument that effects those that work within the PAYE system more than any other sector.

A 40 K limit which seems quit high is equivlent to 587/week after tax not in the super wealthy league. Such a PAYE worker could have travel expenses of 100/week. The cost of going to work is quitely on average at least that. So you are talking about a PAYE worker that may have access to less than 500/week.

Yet a farmer that may have a substantial contracting or cattle haulage business is not limited by this and a sole trader can maniluplate his income for a year to qualify even thought he may be infinately better off.

Maybe its age ,circumstances or where we each farm but to be fair I find it hard to follow your concerns as regards paye ,off farm jobs etc.

To me ,someone on 800 gross a week is doing quiet well and its unlikely the average drystock farm will return anything like this.
Off the top of my head was at a teagasc demo farm last year and the figure was about 10k net from 500 ewes and that was an excellent set up with no major overheads.
So all this jealousy re. income manipulation is a little misplaced .You seem to feel that self employment is rife with dodging and evasion.
At the end of the day if you get 500 a week into your hand then no amount of turning and twisting will leave an average drystock farmer on 10k net better off.

Once again its prob. circumstance but fail to see the obsession on here about paye jobs.For the most part ,around here very little if any farmers have off farm work and of those none that I can think of are in full time permanent employment.

Nettleman

paddysdream wrote: »

Maybe its age ,circumstances or where we each farm but to be fair I find it hard to follow your concerns as regards paye ,off farm jobs etc.

To me ,someone on 800 gross a week is doing quiet well and its unlikely the average drystock farm will return anything like this.
Off the top of my head was at a teagasc demo farm last year and the figure was about 10k net from 500 ewes and that was an excellent set up with no major overheads.
So all this jealousy re. income manipulation is a little misplaced .You seem to feel that self employment is rife with dodging and evasion.
At the end of the day if you get 500 a week into your hand then no amount of turning and twisting will leave an average drystock farmer on 10k net better off.

Once again its prob. circumstance but fail to see the obsession on here about paye jobs.For the most part ,around here very little if any farmers have off farm work and of those none that I can think of are in full time permanent employment.

IMO, theres discrimination in the system based on age and it may not hold up to legal challenge. I would also be have concerns about state aid rules, where the government will give one farmer 500/Ha of SFP, but the guy next door who has same land size, same industry gets none. if you have two shops the same size on a main street, they don't get charged different business rates

Shannonsurfer1

I would hold a similar view to Paddy, as in the 25% top up should be there to incentivise young into ppl into full time farming first where possible... Other wise its just encouraging a scenario where a farm only provides a supplementary boost to persons main source of income...

From the teagase website

"Part-time farming is a growing trend and the National Farm Survey (NFS) shows that the number of farm households where the spouse and/or operator is working off the farm has increased from 37% in 1995 to 58% today. The reliance on non-farm income is also increasing. In 1994 about 54% of income in farm households that engage in off-farm employment was still derived from the farm. By 2006 this had fallen to 34%"....

In what way would ppl like to see Agriculture in Ireland develop in 50 years??... All the advertisement experts are trying to sell the idea that our produce is from green sustainable family farm models... But in reality what is the definition of a family farm... Is it the family who is dependent on the farm as there main source of income or is it the farm who's both spouses are in full time employment...

I 'am not against the idea of ppl who are not reliant on agriculture as a main source of income to be excluded, but a priority system needs to be in place... The average farm income in 2013 was €25,639... how are we going to move farming in the right directions if farms aren't capable of supporting a family...

amacca

paddysdream wrote: »

Your father took a chance,got his pension but missed out on the reference years.Thats nobody's fault really,just the luck of the draw

In order to get the pension (which really wasn't worth it btw) he had to get the land rented - for the second term I rented it off him for fair market rate and so I could not get any entitlements - so one scheme with questionable benefits (for small farmers anyway) excluded the next generation (i.e.: me) from entering the system at all while plenty of guys with off farm jobs could get in

I'm not sure if that was a swing or a roundabout but I know I definitely didn't appreciate the ride

But lets say I accept that one…..I feel I should definitely be able to gain entrance this time around at a reasonable rate as I've served my time out in the cold - but yet again I find myself screwed - you'll excuse me if I can't quite live the zen philosophy while I watch others I feel I am just as deserving of help as get it while I don't.

I can accept the fact that some will be richer or poorer, some will uglier or fairer, some will be sicker or healthier, some will happier or lonelier and sadder etc

What I can't accept is a set of rules which if it isn't deliberately designed to screw a minority group is then simply a moronic oversight that should be addressed in the interests of fairness because those rules are something the govt does have control of if they want to….

I find it hard to believe its not design tbh

L1985

Hey guys

Just my opinion on a couple of things. I'm doing the green cert at the moment and I was actually surprised that the majority of people doing it are involved in farming in some way and not just doing it for the tax bill! I think saying that they aren't doing it full time is true but most farms can't support two people farming full time and the majority of people on the course are under 35 so to build up a farm themselves hasn't happened for everyone esp if they know they will inherit one. That's the issue with how that system is set up I know in my case I'm trying to do a gradual transition from my dad to me and that's what most people on the course seem to be doing. I know where the f/t farmers are coming from but I need my off the farm income to survive on and a lot of that income will go into the farm.

To be honest some of the green cert classes are really good( some are also crap).
The extra money from the schemes gives that boost and also gives an incentive for the land to be transferred ( never an easy one and is it ever really transferred? Lol) yeah some ppl will miss out I prob will myself as our land won't be transferred until 2016 (praying it's extended anyone think it's likely?) but something has to be done to give that push for land to be moved over and even though grants can sometimes be more trouble then their worth those ones will help me thinks!! But there should be some sort of loophole for f/t farmers without the greencert to qualify as that is ridiculous hopefully something will change with that!

Farmer Pudsey

paddysdream wrote: »

Maybe its age ,circumstances or where we each farm but to be fair I find it hard to follow your concerns as regards paye ,off farm jobs etc.

To me ,someone on 800 gross a week is doing quiet well and its unlikely the average drystock farm will return anything like this.
Off the top of my head was at a teagasc demo farm last year and the figure was about 10k net from 500 ewes and that was an excellent set up with no major overheads.
So all this jealousy re. income manipulation is a little misplaced .You seem to feel that self employment is rife with dodging and evasion.
At the end of the day if you get 500 a week into your hand then no amount of turning and twisting will leave an average drystock farmer on 10k net better off.

Once again its prob. circumstance but fail to see the obsession on here about paye jobs.For the most part ,around here very little if any farmers have off farm work and of those none that I can think of are in full time permanent employment.

800 gross a week is 587 after tax. Sounds great but not an enormous amount of money. If you require a car and maybe are living away from home hard to keep money togeather. Yes to the young farmer you might seem to be having a ball in the bright lights but it far from the truth.

I always remember at school there was a lad about the same go as myself. Both below average leaving certs, I repeated. A serious step down in pride. after repeating I went working away from home he was at home selling timber, doing a bit of tractor work I was living hand to mouth ( not starving) for nest 4-5 years. However after that my career took off.

We all make sacifices, jealousy is not a thing I am into, however this is not the first post you bought it up in. However I will reply to it. I never talk about tax evasion or tax dodging, rather about the aboility to tax avoid, Completely legal. In a PAYE circumstance it take people of exceptionally high incomes, ( even then they need a certain hunger) to avoid tax. Being self employed gives one the ability to create wealth if you can reach a certain scale. Am I jealous of anyone maybe of Sean Quinn or Eamon Fitzmaurice.

However I feel the system is always against the PAYE worker trying to get a step on the ladder. People always say it tough at the top of the ladder however you can always step on the other lads fingers before he can climb over you.

On off farm employment there seem to be a distain by some lads It seem to be that these lads have failed. However what is off farm employment' Is the lad that make is making bales, hauling cattle or scanning cows working off farm. I know a few lads that have no farms that are not farmers. However in the eyes of the Dept this is not off farm income.

kilo6

I have been reading these posts and feel your pain. My scenario rented out the land to tillage farmer and emigrated for over 10 years only to find out said tillage farmer has my entitlements. I would love to go back farming again but am screwed as far as sfp goes. My fault entirely for not keeping up with the finer points of EU agri law. Oh did my green cert course back in the late seventies and have never applied for a grant.

paddysdream

Shannonsurfer1 wrote: »

I would hold a similar view to Paddy, as in the 25% top up should be there to incentivise young into ppl into full time farming first where possible... Other wise its just encouraging a scenario where a farm only provides a supplementary boost to persons main source of income...

From the teagase website

"Part-time farming is a growing trend and the National Farm Survey (NFS) shows that the number of farm households where the spouse and/or operator is working off the farm has increased from 37% in 1995 to 58% today. The reliance on non-farm income is also increasing. In 1994 about 54% of income in farm households that engage in off-farm employment was still derived from the farm. By 2006 this had fallen to 34%"....

In what way would ppl like to see Agriculture in Ireland develop in 50 years??... All the advertisement experts are trying to sell the idea that our produce is from green sustainable family farm models... But in reality what is the definition of a family farm... Is it the family who is dependent on the farm as there main source of income or is it the farm who's both spouses are in full time employment...

I 'am not against the idea of ppl who are not reliant on agriculture as a main source of income to be excluded, but a priority system needs to be in place... The average farm income in 2013 was €25,639... how are we going to move farming in the right directions if farms aren't capable of supporting a family...

The above in a nutshell is my opinion.Concisely says what I was trying to get across.

To put it another way;
Someone who's only income is from the land or stock they farm is a farmer.

Someone working a day a week in a mart or for 3 or 4 weeks a year with a contractor etc whilst running their farm is a farmer

Someone working in full time permanent employment on a site or in an office whilst keeping cattle etc is not a farmer.

Now thats very subjective but thats my honest opinion and I feel the rules re.AGRICULTURAL supports should favour the first and second person.Not to the exclusion of the others but definitley put them first in line.

Some people on here feel very insulted if they perceive that they are not seen as "real" farmers but the reality of the situation is that it doesn't make a difference 99% of the time but when it does they shout and roar but will they give up their paye jobs?

To me having land/stock etc does not make you a farmer and the Dept. has a somewhat similar view.Thats why they had/have income limits, stocking rates etc.

There are people in this country with larger farms and more stock/tillage than the vast majority of even most commercial farms.Michael O Leary,Larry Goodman etc.Are they farmers? NO.
A good few local(to me)businessmen have built up decent to large farms over the last 30 years and mostly run them on a commercial basis.Similar thing really.
Best of luck to them but can anyone here really say that they are farmers?
Its not a social/status thing as some people think,just an economic reality.

The acid test for me is how much of your income comes from your farm.Using it as a tax "avoidance" scheme doesn't really cut it to be fair.

Bullocks

paddysdream wrote: »

The above in a nutshell is my opinion.Concisely says what I was trying to get across.

To put it another way;
Someone who's only income is from the land or stock they farm is a farmer.

Someone working a day a week in a mart or for 3 or 4 weeks a year with a contractor etc whilst running their farm is a farmer

Someone working in full time permanent employment on a site or in an office whilst keeping cattle etc is not a farmer.

Now thats very subjective but thats my honest opinion and I feel the rules re.AGRICULTURAL supports should favour the first and second person.Not to the exclusion of the others but definitley put them first in line.

Some people on here feel very insulted if they perceive that they are not seen as "real" farmers but the reality of the situation is that it doesn't make a difference 99% of the time but when it does they shout and roar but will they give up their paye jobs?

To me having land/stock etc does not make you a farmer and the Dept. has a somewhat similar view.Thats why they had/have income limits, stocking rates etc.

There are people in this country with larger farms and more stock/tillage than the vast majority of even most commercial farms.Michael O Leary,Larry Goodman etc.Are they farmers? NO.
A good few local(to me)businessmen have built up decent to large farms over the last 30 years and mostly run them on a commercial basis.Similar thing really.
Best of luck to them but can anyone here really say that they are farmers?
Its not a social/status thing as some people think,just an economic reality.

The acid test for me is how much of your income comes from your farm.Using it as a tax "avoidance" scheme doesn't really cut it to be fair.

I'm with you there alright , people living off the farm completely without any supplementary income should be prioritised for top ups

LivInt20

paddysdream wrote: »

The above in a nutshell is my opinion.Concisely says what I was trying to get across.

To put it another way;
Someone who's only income is from the land or stock they farm is a farmer.

Someone working a day a week in a mart or for 3 or 4 weeks a year with a contractor etc whilst running their farm is a farmer

Someone working in full time permanent employment on a site or in an office whilst keeping cattle etc is not a farmer.

Now thats very subjective but thats my honest opinion and I feel the rules re.AGRICULTURAL supports should favour the first and second person.Not to the exclusion of the others but definitley put them first in line.

Some people on here feel very insulted if they perceive that they are not seen as "real" farmers but the reality of the situation is that it doesn't make a difference 99% of the time but when it does they shout and roar but will they give up their paye jobs?

To me having land/stock etc does not make you a farmer and the Dept. has a somewhat similar view.Thats why they had/have income limits, stocking rates etc.

There are people in this country with larger farms and more stock/tillage than the vast majority of even most commercial farms.Michael O Leary,Larry Goodman etc.Are they farmers? NO.
A good few local(to me)businessmen have built up decent to large farms over the last 30 years and mostly run them on a commercial basis.Similar thing really.
Best of luck to them but can anyone here really say that they are farmers?
Its not a social/status thing as some people think,just an economic reality.

The acid test for me is how much of your income comes from your farm.Using it as a tax "avoidance" scheme doesn't really cut it to be fair.

With all due respect, but the above is Bull**** of the highest quality.

paddysdream

LivInt20 wrote: »

With all due respect, but the above is Bull**** of the highest quality.

And what exactly do you disagree with?

LivInt20

paddysdream wrote: »

And what exactly do you disagree with?

Someone working in full time permanent employment on a site or in an office whilst keeping cattle etc is not a farmer.

That is the first line that I disagree with.

Now thats very subjective but thats my honest opinion and I feel the rules re.AGRICULTURAL supports should favour the first and second person.Not to the exclusion of the others but definitley put them first in line.

Also this line.

The acid test for me is how much of your income comes from your farm.Using it as a tax "avoidance" scheme doesn't really cut it to be fair.

You clearly know nothing about tax.

The rest is also crap!!

Miname

paddysdream wrote: »

The above in a nutshell is my opinion.Concisely says what I was trying to get across.

To put it another way;
Someone who's only income is from the land or stock they farm is a farmer.

Someone working a day a week in a mart or for 3 or 4 weeks a year with a contractor etc whilst running their farm is a farmer

Someone working in full time permanent employment on a site or in an office whilst keeping cattle etc is not a farmer.

Now thats very subjective but thats my honest opinion and I feel the rules re.AGRICULTURAL supports should favour the first and second person.Not to the exclusion of the others but definitley put them first in line.

Some people on here feel very insulted if they perceive that they are not seen as "real" farmers but the reality of the situation is that it doesn't make a difference 99% of the time but when it does they shout and roar but will they give up their paye jobs?

To me having land/stock etc does not make you a farmer and the Dept. has a somewhat similar view.Thats why they had/have income limits, stocking rates etc.

There are people in this country with larger farms and more stock/tillage than the vast majority of even most commercial farms.Michael O Leary,Larry Goodman etc.Are they farmers? NO.
A good few local(to me)businessmen have built up decent to large farms over the last 30 years and mostly run them on a commercial basis.Similar thing really.
Best of luck to them but can anyone here really say that they are farmers?
Its not a social/status thing as some people think,just an economic reality.

The acid test for me is how much of your income comes from your farm.Using it as a tax "avoidance" scheme doesn't really cut it to be fair.

I'm working my ass of in another industry so I can make my farm sustainable. I've a family to support and a mortgage to pay like everyone else and the farm doesn't have the capabilities to support that. Put in rules that lads have to farm full time to get grants and half the country will have to question which is their best option stay at home on an unsustainable farm or try and go out and make a go of themselves. It's a completely in thought out statement you made. Lads that put in locally would have to sell up to the big shot down the road.

paddysdream

LivInt20 wrote: »

Someone working in full time permanent employment on a site or in an office whilst keeping cattle etc is not a farmer.

That is the first line that I disagree with.

Now thats very subjective but thats my honest opinion and I feel the rules re.AGRICULTURAL supports should favour the first and second person.Not to the exclusion of the others but definitley put them first in line.

Also this line.

The acid test for me is how much of your income comes from your farm.Using it as a tax "avoidance" scheme doesn't really cut it to be fair.

You clearly know nothing about tax.

The rest is also crap!!

All I know about tax is that I hate paying it!!!!

As regards the rest,well how many cattle/sheep or land does one need in your honest opinion to be considered a farmer?.Or how many hours a week do they have to do at it?

Take someone retired with 2 ewes using them to graze off a big garden. Farmer or not?
Lad beside me on the dole rears 3 calves each year and sell as weanlings.Farmer or not?
Retired civil servant with 10 acres on which he runs a few dry sheep.Farmer or not?
Solicitor who herds for his father on Sundays when he's gone to a match.Farmer or not.?
Software engineer who milks the cows at home the odd weekend to help his parents.Farmer or not.
Electrician who helps his brother some evenings and at weekends.Farmer or not?
Farm worker(full time) who rents 15 acres to run 20 ewes and 5 cattle.Farmer or not?
Managing director of large engineering firm who has bought about 100 acres in the last 20 years and keeps sheep and cattle.Farmer or not?

All those are examples of people I know .So lets hear your answer!!!!!!!!!!!

AP2014

Miname wrote: »

I'm working my ass of in another industry so I can make my farm sustainable. I've a family to support and a mortgage to pay like everyone else and the farm doesn't have the capabilities to support that. Put in rules that lads have to farm full time to get grants and half the country will have to question which is their best option stay at home on an unsustainable farm or try and go out and make a go of themselves. It's a completely in thought out statement you made. Lads that put in locally would have to sell up to the big shot down the road.

Agree work of farm full time and only there at wkds. I was handed farm with decent sfp but all stock and fert for first year funded from off farm job.

If you farm and have a herd no. everyone should get an equal payment per ha in my opinion, this gives an equal playing field.

paddysdream

Miname wrote: »

I'm working my ass of in another industry so I can make my farm sustainable. I've a family to support and a mortgage to pay like everyone else and the farm doesn't have the capabilities to support that. Put in rules that lads have to farm full time to get grants and half the country will have to question which is their best option stay at home on an unsustainable farm or try and go out and make a go of themselves. It's a completely in thought out statement you made. Lads that put in locally would have to sell up to the big shot down the road.

Can I ask what your plan is when you make the farm "sustainable"?

Why this obsession of lads having to choose?
Nobody said(well at least not me!) that anybody had to farm full time to get anything.
Just that those who commit to full time agriculture and intend to try and make a living from it should ,in all fairness,be considered first for the YOUNG FARMER TOP UP and National Reserve before those for whom it is a secondary income or who's intention is to farm it full time at some as yet to be determined date in the future.
In fairness nothing like an auld grant/SFP etc thread to get people all hot and bothered.Best not mention the I*A or ye will all explode.
In truth though its sad to say that the reality of the situation is that these things(SFP et al) are where the (only) money seems to be in all sectors of farming apart from dairying(or tax avoidance!!)

Bullocks

paddysdream wrote: »

In truth though its sad to say that the reality of the situation is that these things(SFP et al) are where the (only) money seems to be in all sectors of farming apart from dairying(or tax avoidance!!)

That is the sad truth of it . If there was a good margin to be had we wouldn't be half as worried about grants or top ups . Well I wouldn't anyhow and would be much happier doing my own thing but this is the way it's gone now .
My old boy kept two families fed from our farm and now it would just about put buy the groceries for the week without SFP

wool521

can anyone tell me if i can apply to national reserve.Got herd no in 2011.I have never had entitlements and im currently doing green cert.(started last september)can i apply or am I in the old/young farmer category,very confused. Thanks for the help