No contraception, no dole

VinLieger

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

Contraception isn't 100% foolproof.
Are you then suggesting that people refrain from having intercourse?

BTW, do you actually agree with what's proposed by this nutjob?

Of course Contraception isn't 100% but some forms' are pretty close at 99% such as an IUD implant., btw thats not suggesting we force people to get these implants but its an example of contraception that is more effective than condoms.

Yes I do agree with this suggestion. He is simply suggesting people who do not have the means to look after and pay for a child or children take some responsibility and not expect other people IE the tax payers to foot the bill for their life choices to have a child when they cannot afford it.

DeJa VooDoo

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Responsibility lies with both mother and father, equally. Sort out the stupid laws that infringe on fathers rights and hopefully the "it's her problem" mentality will die out.

Agreed.
When the guy is proven to be the father either have his wages, or his welfare if he's on it, 'garnished' to suit and have a similar reduction of the money she gets from the state.

DoYouEvenLift

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

This thread is gonna piss me off. All I am seeing is "it is the responsibility of the woman", "men can't get child benefit" (wtf?), "vaginas".

A little token sentence of "I couldnt care less if they are male or female" doesn't change the fact that opinion here is it is the females problem.

How about, the snip for all men from age 14 onwards and when they reach an acceptable income level, they get the procedure reversed? Nah, didn't think you'd go for that one.

Responsibility lies with both mother and father, equally. Sort out the stupid laws that infringe on fathers rights and hopefully the "it's her problem" mentality will die out.

If it was completely pain and discomfort free and 100% guaranteed reversible with instant recovery I would, but "the snip" is none of those. Can one really compare having a surgery with swallowing a pill?

LoonyLovegood

No contraception, no dole, fine. But will they pay for the hormonal contraception? What if it doesn't agree with the woman, will they pay for another form of it? It's a crazy idea.

Dyr

CruelCoin wrote: »

No more obnoxious than a single mother with five kids expecting me to pay her way.

Hmmm by that logic, did I pay for you to go to school? I probably paid mickey money to your ma too. Are you gonna pay that back?

I wasn't saying that australia is unique in its capacity to produce obnoxious bawbags, this wee island can turn out some fine examples

Dog of Tears

The ability to reproduce should be strictly controlled and regulated by the State.

As a minimum, prospective parents should be required to undertake IQ tests and demonstrate minimum income levels prior to being allowed to have children.

Failure to comply with these requirements should result in heft fines and/or imprisonment for both partners and forced abortion of the foetus.

yipeeeee

We have the second highest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe.

If you can't afford kids don't have them.

People who rely on the state to support themselves then Go on to have kids and expect the state to support them.

It's called family planning.

rob316

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

Agreed.
When the guy is proven to be the father either have his wages, or his welfare if he's on it, 'garnished' to suit and have a similar reduction of the money she gets from the state.

Exactly its men impregnate women not the other way around. The money to support a child should be taken from the working father, I know this is what's supposed to happen but it doesn't and usually its a pretty small sum.

DeJa VooDoo

Dog of Tears wrote: »

The ability to reproduce should be strictly controlled and regulated by the State.

As a minimum, prospective parents should be required to undertake IQ tests and demonstrate minimum income levels prior to being allowed to have children.

Failure to comply with these requirements should result in heft fines and/or imprisonment for both partners and forced abortion of the foetus.

Careful now!

DoYouEvenLift

yipeeeee wrote: »

We have the second highest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe.

If you can't afford kids don't have them.

That's honestly fuking depressing.

Fukuyama

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

This thread is gonna piss me off. All I am seeing is "it is the responsibility of the woman", "men can't get child benefit" (wtf?), "vaginas".

A little token sentence of "I couldnt care less if they are male or female" doesn't change the fact that opinion here is it is the females problem.

How about, the snip for all men from age 14 onwards and when they reach an acceptable income level, they get the procedure reversed? Nah, didn't think you'd go for that one.

Responsibility lies with both mother and father, equally. Sort out the stupid laws that infringe on fathers rights and hopefully the "it's her problem" mentality will die out.

Would never agree with actually implementing laws like this as they're unconstitutional and wrong (very Hitler-ist).

However, there does need to be a discussion about the many women who do make "being a fulltime mammy" their career - particularly when the state provides 100% of her income.

Like it or not, you'll never hear an 18 year old bloke say "I'm gonna have a kid to get a flat and fathers allowance". However, it's becoming quite common among many girls of school leaving age to realize they've a **** LC and decide to drop a kid as a cop out. My sister went to an all girls school and by the time she was two years out of school, the same girls who had vocally announced this plan to their mates had gone through with it.

Just grab some idiot, let him knock one into you a few times and bobs your uncle.

Yes, both himself and herself are responsible for creating the kid. That's the opinion of most people including myself and I presume yourself. However, THEIR opinion is that the kid and parents should be looked after by the nanny state.

So it doesn't matter what we think.

DeJa VooDoo

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

Agreed.
When the guy is proven to be the father either have his wages, or his welfare if he's on it, 'garnished' to suit and have a similar reduction of the money she gets from the state.

My main focus would be on who is in the best position to care for the child first. If a father is able to provide a more stable home during the week managing work, childcare and school then that is where the child should be. Mother can go to work and pay maintenance and have kids at weekends, alternate weeks and the like.

The mindset of who is responsible for the children has to change.

DeJa VooDoo

yipeeeee wrote: »

We have the second highest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe.

If you can't afford kids don't have them.

People who rely on the state to support themselves then Go on to have kids and expect the state to support them.

It's called family planning.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Firish-news%2Fteen-pregnancy-rates-down-to-its-lowest-in-50-years-29634214.html&ei=8gS1VPTBDK_e7AaZqIDYAg&usg=AFQjCNHWrGBvpGoefeFZy4wnIm1YNEKBDA&bvm=bv.83339334,d.ZGU

Tearin It Up

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

What do you suggest people who's partners are deceased or were recently made redundant and had to claim lone parents allowance for their kids should do?
Hand the children over to someone else?

No, but its already been mentioned in the article that its for new people claiming the dole, the money isn't for having a child.

Allowances for deceased partners, lost jobs, or whatever, well they never planned on scamming the system for having x number of kids. These are responsible enough people, I doubt they will add to their problems ie let's have another kid on top of a dead spouse, lost job.

listermint

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

The 50" plasma does sound a bit like the 'nigerian mothers prams' TBH.
Most houses would have a flatscreen panel these days in any case I would have thought.
Plasma is old hat too, 4K UHD LCD is the way to go...

Oh god...

Groan.

kylith

Maybe a child support cap would be better? X for the first child, Y for the second child, and nothing for subsequent children.

Of course it would be impossible to implement such a policy without either coming up with 100% reliable contraception or legalising abortion since, currently, a woman who can't get to the UK has no option but to have the baby whether she wants it or not.

yipeeeee

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Firish-news%2Fteen-pregnancy-rates-down-to-its-lowest-in-50-years-29634214.html&ei=8gS1VPTBDK_e7AaZqIDYAg&usg=AFQjCNHWrGBvpGoefeFZy4wnIm1YNEKBDA&bvm=bv.83339334,d.ZGU

Sorry my mistake.

It's the highest.

Roger Hassenforder

I've three kids, would love more but can't afford them. No medical card, no allowances other than the CB.

And my TV is only 40". (But it's smart).

People have to take responsibility for their riding.
You can't have a system where someone is better off on the dole than working.

RDM_83 again

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

This thread is gonna piss me off. All I am seeing is "it is the responsibility of the woman", "men can't get child benefit" (wtf?), "vaginas".

A little token sentence of "I couldnt care less if they are male or female" doesn't change the fact that opinion here is it is the females problem.

How about, the snip for all men from age 14 onwards and when they reach an acceptable income level, they get the procedure reversed? Nah, didn't think you'd go for that one.

Responsibility lies with both mother and father, equally. Sort out the stupid laws that infringe on fathers rights and hopefully the "it's her problem" mentality will die out.

Ok this is a hypothetical not a moral statement but your suggestion just doesn't make sense.

If as its claimed by this politician women are looking to have a child and claim social assistance as a single mother, how will forcing contraception on low income men help? Since its pretty easy to not have a fathers name on the birth cert now and there is a vast pool of men with an income ready to have a one night stand, and of those men quiet a few would be willing not to use a condom the suggestion of equivalence fails on a logical point.

^^^
not my belief but if your going to take what he is saying seriously thats one reason why its about the mothers

Fukuyama

kylith wrote: »

Maybe a child support cap would be better? X for the first child, Y for the second child, and nothing for subsequent children.

Of course it would be impossible to implement such a policy without either coming up with 100% reliable contraception or legalising abortion since, currently, a woman who can't get to the UK has no option but to have the baby whether she wants it or not.

Well, abortion isn't something I'd see as a solution. But it's not like the UK is some far away land. A few hundred quid if booked at last minute prices tbh. Might be a stretch if you're on the dole but then:

a) don't get pregnant in the first place. Use one or more of the myriad of 99% options out there

b) Order online from that womans network site thing

c) Borrow €200 and fly to London/Manchester, there and back on the same day.

suicide_circus

yipeeeee wrote: »

Sorry my mistake.

It's the highest.

A combination of no abortion + generous sw benefits = high birth rate

VinLieger

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Ok this is a hypothetical not a moral statement but your suggestion just doesn't make sense.

If as its claimed by this politician women are looking to have a child and claim social assistance as a single mother, how will forcing contraception on low income men help? Since its pretty easy to not have a fathers name on the birth cert now and there is a vast pool of men with an income ready to have a one night stand, and of those men quiet a few would be willing not to use a condom the suggestion of equivalence fails on a logical point.

^^^
not my belief but if your going to take what he is saying seriously thats one reason why its about the mothers

Any man having a one night stand that doesn't use a condom gets what he deserves imo, be it an STI or a baby

rob316

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

That's honestly fuking depressing.

Its education that needs to be addressed. So often these teenage pregnancies are rife in poor social economic backgrounds. Sometimes the teens themselves are the product of a teenage pregnancy.

Fukuyama

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Firish-news%2Fteen-pregnancy-rates-down-to-its-lowest-in-50-years-29634214.html&ei=8gS1VPTBDK_e7AaZqIDYAg&usg=AFQjCNHWrGBvpGoefeFZy4wnIm1YNEKBDA&bvm=bv.83339334,d.ZGU

DeJa VooDoo, you seem a little out of touch with the sectors of society that are causing these problems.

Many areas of Dublin are teaming with feral kids and local economies pulling huge amounts from SW, and little from employment. There's a sub-culture and attitude among many of all ages towards the country and it's welfare system. It's a massive, expensive problem and it's caused by people who feel entitled to a living.

DoYouEvenLift

listermint wrote: »

Oh god...

Groan.

It's funny because he's actually wrong. High end 1080p plasmas still stand up strong against most 4K LCD TVs as plasma is still a superior display technology than LCD/LED. A high end 1080p plasma is far better than a high end 1080p LCD. The only display technology on the way that's as good/better than plasma is OLED.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I've three kids, would love more but can't afford them. No medical card, no allowances other than the CB.

And my TV is only 40". (But it's smart).

People have to take responsibility for their riding.
You can't have a system where someone is better off on the dole than working.

Lol, what TV isn't nowadays?

rob316 wrote: »

Its education that needs to be addressed. So often these teenage pregnancies are rife in poor social economic backgrounds. Sometimes the teens themselves are the product of a teenage pregnancy.

Can't teach those that don't want to learn, man. We all know the type, the ones who went to school only because they were required to and held back class progress sometimes by acting like idiots thinking they were being funny or cool.

Roger Hassenforder

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

Agreed.
When the guy is proven to be the father either have his wages, or his welfare if he's on it, 'garnished' to suit and have a similar reduction of the money she gets from the state.

This is a kernel of the issue, chaps not being held to account for their prowess.
However, their is a pitfall in that without a DNA database, all the mother has to do is claim she doesn't know who the father is. Maybe on that case a reduced payment?

Is this Australian article motivated by that recent tragedy where the mother killed her 8 kids, and police had to notify the 5 different fathers?

kylith

Dean0088 wrote: »

Well, abortion isn't something I'd see as a solution. But it's not like the UK is some far away land. A few hundred quid if booked at last minute prices tbh. Might be a stretch if you're on the dole but then:

a) don't get pregnant in the first place. Use one or more of the myriad of 99% options out there

b) Order online from that womans network site thing

c) Borrow €200 and fly to London/Manchester, there and back on the same day.

a) Contraception is not infallible

b) That carries a sentence of up to 14 years in jail if you get caught

c) You are aware that Ryanair don't run package abortion deals for E200, right? E200 for the flights, another E200 for accommodation (because flying after having an abortion can be dangerous if not potentially fatal) and about E1,000 for the procedure itself. But sure, no-one would have a problem pulling E1,500 out of their arses, would they? Not to mention taking time off work, arranging childcare, or anything else that would stop someone, especially with limited funds, just popping over to England for a couple of days.

darkpagandeath

Nothing like our betters coming up with reasons to keep the pleb class down. Sure arnt these the same lads/lass that when asked about expenses and alike go very quiet. You know like here I need a gaff in town as I have to work in the dail, Yet alot of them are hardly ever in the dail, come in for votes and alike. But are working the pumps back in the constituency most of the time.

They have it it's single mothers that brought the country down lets punish them or was it people on the dole or was it everyone going mad ? Or was it actually terribly run banks with access to money giving it out like water then telling everyone to buy a house...

RDM_83 again

VinLieger wrote: »

Any man having a one night stand that doesn't use a condom gets what he deserves imo, be it an STI or a baby

It doesn't matter what the man "deserves" if we take this proposal seriously we should look at it logically (though would you say the same about a woman, and would you restrict her access to an abortion because of it as afterall she "deserves" a baby)

Ok in this situation the woman involved is apparently wanting to get pregnant and gain the maximum amount of social assistance.
Therefore why would she place the fathers name on the birth cert, it would be impossible to prove she knows who the father is, and she might genuinely not know, its not about any right or wrong its about how in this situation advocating mandatory contraception for men on the dole makes no sense in this scenario*

*Its a fairly silly scenario anyway

VinLieger

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nothing like our betters coming up with reasons to keep the pleb class down. Sure arnt these the same lads/lass that when asked about expenses and alike go very quiet. You know like here I need a gaff in town as I have to work in the dail, Yet alot of them are hardly ever in the dail, come in for votes and alike. But are working the pumps back in the constituency most of the time.

They have it it's single mothers that brought the country down lets punish them or was it people on the dole or was it everyone going mad ? Or was it actually terribly run banks with access to money giving it out like water then telling everyone to buy a house...

You do know this isnt' coming from an Irish politician yeah? Its a suggestion in Australia from a former labour PM.

Try reading the article before making assumptions yeah?

DoYouEvenLift

VinLieger wrote: »

You do know this isnt' coming from an Irish politician yeah? Its a suggestion in Australia from a former labour PM.

Try reading the article before making assumptions yeah?

This, he wouldn't even need to read the article in this case, it says it within the first couple of sentences in OPs post lol.

darkpagandeath

VinLieger wrote: »

You do know this isnt' coming from an Irish politician yeah? Its a suggestion in Australia from a former labour PM.

Try reading the article before making assumptions yeah?

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

This, he wouldn't even need to read the article in this case, it says it within the first couple of sentences in OPs post lol.

Good job on missing the point... I put an Irish context on it as everyone here is doing the same. Or are all the storeys of I know x amount of dole scroungers coming from our Australian members ....

Standman

CruelCoin wrote: »

No more obnoxious than a single mother with five kids expecting me to pay her way.

We've got a single mother here in need of some cash! Quick, someone go get CruelCoin!!

VinLieger

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Good job on missing the point... I put an Irish context on it as everyone here is doing the same. Or are all the storeys of I know x amount of dole scroungers coming from our Australian members ....

You specifically mention TD's at several points in your post

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nothing like our betters coming up with reasons to keep the pleb class down. Sure arnt these the same lads/lass that when asked about expenses and alike go very quiet. You know like here I need a gaff in town as I have to work in the dail, Yet alot of them are hardly ever in the dail, come in for votes and alike. But are working the pumps back in the constituency most of the time.

They have it it's single mothers that brought the country down lets punish them or was it people on the dole or was it everyone going mad ? Or was it actually terribly run banks with access to money giving it out like water then telling everyone to buy a house...

Is everyone posting here a TD now?

Gatling

Standman wrote: »

We've got a single mother here in need of some cash! Quick, someone go get CruelCoin!!

I heard the pub who tried to run welfare Wednesday have a new idea ,

"Knocked up Friday " jump up on the bar there luv we've a few lads all ready to go lie back and think of the new flat screen,

Come back in 9 months and we'll give you and the sprog loyalty cards

BBJBIG

He's Australian right .... Australians are fooooookin Nuts.
Thought everyone knew that already.

darkpagandeath

VinLieger wrote: »

You specifically mention TD's at several points in your post



Is everyone posting here a TD now?

And ? Pointing out the mention of TD's makes everyone TD's how ?

VinLieger

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And ? Pointing out the mention of TD's makes everyone TD's how ?

Your post makes no sense in an Irish context as you are accusing Irish TD's of making these claims and proposing this solution when absolutely none have

Fukuyama

kylith wrote: »

a) Contraception is not infallible

b) That carries a sentence of up to 14 years in jail if you get caught

c) You are aware that Ryanair don't run package abortion deals for E200, right? E200 for the flights, another E200 for accommodation (because flying after having an abortion can be dangerous if not potentially fatal) and about E1,000 for the procedure itself. But sure, no-one would have a problem pulling E1,500 out of their arses, would they? Not to mention taking time off work, arranging childcare, or anything else that would stop someone, especially with limited funds, just popping over to England for a couple of days.

Contraception, when used right, is pretty good at stoping babies.

Use a condom and a great deal of risk is reduced. Combined with the pill or bar or whatever other option recommended by a doctor, and you're 99.9% not going to have a kid.

Don't tell me that the majority of the thousands of unwanted kids born every year are because contraception failed. It's either stupidity or part of a plan to get pregnant.

Has there ever been a case of prosecution in Ireland due to pills ordered from Women on Web? Sure it was only a few weeks ago that dozens of women brought abortion pills into the state in full view of gardaí and media and nobody was even arrested. Cop on.

You're taking through your hole on the Ryanair thing. I just checked prices for this day next week :

Manchester, fly out Tue back Wed: €34.99 each way. So €70 euro. Say another €80 for a hotel room and €150 for the abortion (and many clinics offer discounts to people who give ROI addresses as they know the costs of travel). Throw in another €50 for a a few meals and public transport. We're talking €300 max.

Could be had for less if you come and go on the same day.

Not saying it's a solution to the problem in this thread. But abortions aren't the reserve of the rich like.

Tasden

Not sure why people are making this into a single mothers issue. It was about people on social welfare who can't afford more kids. People who are in a relationship or married and on jobseekers or any other type of payment fall under that category too.

davidfitz22

Fantastic idea, in fact I think you should be required to have a license and be means tested before being allowed to have a child or even a second child. Single mothers get far too much money off this state.

rob316

Dean0088 wrote: »

Contraception, when used right, is pretty good at stoping babies.

Use a condom and a great deal of risk is reduced. Combined with the pill or bar or whatever other option recommended by a doctor, and you're 99.9% not going to have a kid.

Don't tell me that the majority of the thousands of unwanted kids born every year are because contraception failed. It's either stupidity or part of a plan to get pregnant.

Has there ever been a case of prosecution in Ireland due to pills ordered from Women on Web? Sure it was only a few weeks ago that dozens of women brought abortion pills into the state in full view of gardaí and media and nobody was even arrested. Cop on.

You're taking through your hole on the Ryanair thing. I just checked prices for this day next week :

Manchester, fly out Tue back Wed: €34.99 each way. So €70 euro. Say another €80 for a hotel room and €150 for the abortion (and many clinics offer discounts to people who give ROI addresses as they know the costs of travel). Throw in another €50 for a a few meals and public transport. We're talking €300 max.

Could be had for less if you come and go on the same day.

Not saying it's a solution to the problem in this thread. But abortions aren't the reserve of the rich like.

€150 for an abortion, your well misinformed sir. up to 14 weeks costs about €600, after 19 weeks its a surgical procedure that cost well over €2000. You will get a discount if you are from Ireland though.

Lux23

If children come from a family where neither parent has worked or a sole parent who relies heavily on handouts, then they should get early intervention from the age of 11 or 12, they will get special classes where they are taught the value of staying in school and attending third level. Break the cycle of generations surviving on welfare and going nowhere with their lives. This suggestion by some dopey Australian politician seems completely unworkable anyway, as well as being sexist and inhumane. Just because you're unemployed doesn't mean you can be treated like vermin.

davidfitz22

Tasden wrote: »

Not sure why people are making this into a single mothers issue. It was about people on social welfare who can't afford more kids. People who are in a relationship or married and on jobseekers or any other type of payment fall under that category too.

Because most single mothers aren't single if you know what i mean. they can make a comfortable living on allowances and some don't even raise their kids their mothers raise the kids while they reap the benefits

mynamejeff

kylith wrote: »

Will the government cover the cost of the contraception?

im sure they already do

Fukuyama

Tasden wrote: »

Not sure why people are making this into a single mothers issue. It was about people on social welfare who can't afford more kids. People who are in a relationship or married and on jobseekers or any other type of payment fall under that category too.

Because most people don't have a problem with families with at least one parent who has been in employment for a decent period of time. If that breadwinner loses his/her job then it's only fair that they be entitled to some help. After all, they paid into the pot as a kind of insurance for their family.

The main problem is people stratagizing and planning their family based off what kind of welfare bumps they'll get. Very often, these people never pay into the pot and never will.

Roger Hassenforder

Lux23 wrote: »

If children come from a family where neither parent has worked or a sole parent who relies heavily on handouts, then they should early intervention from the age of 11 or 12, they will get special classes where they are thought the value of staying in school and attending third level. Break the cycle of generations surviving on welfare and going nowhere with their lives. This suggestion by some dopey Australian politician seems completely unworkable anyway, as well as being sexist and inhumane. Just because you're unemployed doesn't mean you can be treated like vermin.

I see your point, but why stay in school, goto college, get a job when you'd be better off on the dole.

darkpagandeath

VinLieger wrote: »

Your post makes no sense in an Irish context as you are accusing Irish TD's of making these claims and proposing this solution when absolutely none have

Fair enough I'm sure you will be telling all the other posters who mentioned any Irish context they are wrong also.

I am trying to think.. Has any Irish politician ever gone on about the dole... Hmmm Sorry my bad that has never ever happened here.

Fukuyama

mynamejeff wrote: »

im sure they already do

I've heard of free condoms being dispensed in schools now. Along with GPs offices and other similar locations.

Also, contraception is a responsibility for an individual. If you're going to have sex you shouldn't need to involve the government. Any adult knows that creating a human life is a huge deal and can happen due to sex.

I've never once thought of contraception as anything other than a matter for personal responsibility and something you just have to do in order to have sex.

Fukuyama

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I am trying to think.. Has any Irish politician ever gone on about the dole... Hmmm Sorry my bad that has never ever happened here.

You're basically saying that our elected politicians aren't allowed to discuss social welfare because of the 2007-10 crisis/bailout. It's idiotic.